Tom, great pics. Nice ballasting and weathering job too. But doesn't painting the rail cause problems for operations? I tried painting the sides of my rails, but it ended in disaster with engines constantly stalling over parts of the track due to the paint I suppose. I even sanded down any paint that got on the top, but no luck. Are you not supposed to paint the inside rail?
How do you avoid all of these electrical complications, I take it your trains run smoothly, no stalling over painted rails?
twhiteAnd to further answer the question "Why Brass"-- I can't get this in plastic: And believe me, I wouldn't be enjoying the hobby nearly as much. Tom
And to further answer the question "Why Brass"--
I can't get this in plastic:
And believe me, I wouldn't be enjoying the hobby nearly as much.
Tom
Very nice. They just don't make them in plastic.
CZ
CZ:
Thanks. I like those lokies a lot. They're older (1960-70) brass, but they run smooth and well, and the detail, if not up to current brass models, is still as good if not better than current plastic.
Just as an aside to how 'forgiving' brass is to work with, the middle photo--the Akane Yellowstone--was bought at a train show in Roseville a couple of years ago for literally a 'song', since it was in pieces. A real junker--but those Akane drive trains are absolutely INDESTRUCTABLE, thank heaven. Took me about 6 months, but I got it up and running and it's now a happy member of my articulated 'fleet', hauling anything you want to put behind it, LOL. It's a very sweet runner.
rjake:
I have no problems with electrical conductivity on painted rail. I use several shades of brown, black and gray to paint the rails (rattle cans) and paint very small sections at a time, wiping the tops of the rails immediately with alcohol. Any left-over paint will come up very quickly with a Brite Boy or masonite block. Just make sure that you do the rail in small (1-2 foot sections) at a time. And mask the frogs and points on the turnouts while you're spraying. I usually go back and brush-paint those parts, though as you can see in the photos, I still have a few turnouts to finish.
As I said, I've had no problems with conductivity, but then I run straight DC. I don't know if running DCC has a different impact on conductivity, perhaps some DCC modelers will chime in on this point.
Thanks for the comments, BTW. I appreciate them.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
1. 1950;
2. "Zulu";
3. EM-1;
4. "Big Emma";
5. AC-9;
6. GS-2/GS-6/GS-64-77/"Big Apple";
7. MP's 4-8-4s rebuilt from their 63" drivered Berkshires;
8. R-67B (Coal)/R-67B (Oil);
9. H/H-1 (Coal)/H/H-1 (Oil).
Look at this, will ya'! I've taken this topic and turned it into a wish list!
If you want any of these things you gotta get'em in brass.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
NYC Buchanan racer as run by the East New York, with only minor piping changes. And, Kemtron spoked pilot wheels. Gem model cost me $49.50 c.1969. Not available in plastic.
CB&Q ModelerThe closest anyone come to a G.N engine in plastic was Rivarossi's USRA heavy mikado,even then it's vanderbilt tender was a C&O longhaul unit I replaced that with a brass swapmeet find though I really think its a U.P medium tender.....still think it looks better than the original tho' lol
The closest anyone come to a G.N engine in plastic was Rivarossi's USRA heavy mikado,even then it's vanderbilt tender was a C&O longhaul unit I replaced that with a brass swapmeet find though I really think its a U.P medium tender.....still think it looks better than the original tho' lol
One big point for brass in my book is permanance. Its brass!. good for a thousand years.
On the subject of painted rail, I spray paint the track before I lay it with rattle cans. I wipe each section of rail heads off right away after spraying, with thinner. Look closely and make sure the center of the rail is clean too. Sometimes a quick wipe will only get the edges. Mask the points like the man says. Only problem is that any section you curve will have to be touched up , as the rail slides and exposes unpainted portions. Also you need to clean away the paint where rail joiners contact and anywhwere you want to solder. A little bit of a pain but worth the good looking track. BILL
7j43kCB&Q Modeler The closest anyone come to a G.N engine in plastic was Rivarossi's USRA heavy mikado,even then it's vanderbilt tender was a C&O longhaul unit I replaced that with a brass swapmeet find though I really think its a U.P medium tender.....still think it looks better than the original tho' lol I think Broadway Limited makes a quite credible GN O-3, and with the proper tender. It's done as an early version before the GN put the air pumps on the front. Ed
CB&Q Modeler The closest anyone come to a G.N engine in plastic was Rivarossi's USRA heavy mikado,even then it's vanderbilt tender was a C&O longhaul unit I replaced that with a brass swapmeet find though I really think its a U.P medium tender.....still think it looks better than the original tho' lol
Ed
This is true forgot that one but the BLI loco has hardly been out a year yet where as I bought this one in 1985,there also have been several different USRA mikes produced that could be detailed in either early or late 03s.Other than these theres never been any GN.engine done in plastic.
On the other hand UP. 4-6-6-4s & 4-8-8-4s have been done ad nauseum.
I too have been interested in Brass, I have my eye on a U50 but I think it is a few years old, not Overland, perhaps Trains Inc or Alco. Anybody got good or bad experieinecs with one of these?
As mentioned above, havn't seen a plastic U50 so looking at going down the Brass route, wouldn't mind one of those blaster turbines but the price is too much for me!
Can anyone tell me the best way to paint a brass locomotive, i.e preperation to remove tarnish and if an undercoat is a must, etc?
Nige.
CB&Q Modeler On the other hand UP. 4-6-6-4s & 4-8-8-4s have been done ad nauseum.
Yet no one does a D&H, GN, NP, SP&S, or true DRGW Challengers. I'm not a steam guy, but wouldn't using one of the several hundred thousand UP challenger out there to kitbash into one of the non-modeled ones be possbile? They're kind of like the F-units to me, everyone does the ATSF ones, but no one does the BN ones.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
For me its the durablity of early brass models, to me thats late 50's thru the early 70's PFM/United, Tenshodo models. When I pick up my PFM Berkshire, it doesnt feel fragile like the Bachmann or BLI/MTH steamers I have had or worked on for others. If the motor or gear box fails, which seldom happens on the better older models, its one call to NWSL for a new gearbox and can motor. I suspect when I reach my time to leave this lifetime, the brass will still be running, still be collected and operated, as for the newer plastic/diecast/hybrid stuff, who knows, who knows if the drives will last, if the diecast wont start to get brittle and fall appart like many of the early diecast models. These new ones are made in China or other overseas locations, we dont know how good thier diecasting process is. But brass is brass, it can be resoldered, repaired and made to operate better than any plastic/diecast/hybrid train I have seen yet, they are getting close. Brass, espicaly older steam and diesel are more for the hobbiest that can tinker, tune and enjoys such busy work. I probably pull the shell and clean and tune my brass steamers 1-2 times a year, usualy before an open house at the local club or before I take them to a layout to be operated. The work and resulting smooth running model is a souce of pride and joy when others compliment how nice the model operates, then realize its a brass model from years back, usualy older than they are, heck most of my models are older than I am! New brass is the bane of the deep pocketbooks due to very limited runs, usualy less than 50, some less than 20 for one variation. PFM used to do runs in the hundreds with total production of several runs exceeding 1000-2000 models for several popular engines. They were built to run and by doing such large runs of the NKP Berkshire, ATSF 2-8-0, Shays ect, they kept the cost within reach of many modelers of the time. Cheers Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
ngartshore350I too have been interested in Brass, I have my eye on a U50 but I think it is a few years old, not Overland, perhaps Trains Inc or Alco. Anybody got good or bad experieinecs with one of these? As mentioned above, havn't seen a plastic U50 so looking at going down the Brass route, wouldn't mind one of those blaster turbines but the price is too much for me! Can anyone tell me the best way to paint a brass locomotive, i.e preperation to remove tarnish and if an undercoat is a must, etc? Nige.
I don't have the U50 since it is newer than the era I model, but the Trains Inc. models were in general very poor runners. I know there are probably exceptions, but buying it unseen and not watching it run might lead to a big disappointment.
The ALCO models which I have owned several were built by KTM and should run OK, but are probably noisy.
CAZEPHYR I don't have the U50 since it is newer than the era I model, but the Trains Inc. models were in general very poor runners. I know there are probably exceptions, but buying it unseen and not watching it run might lead to a big disappointment. The ALCO models which I have owned several were built by KTM and should run OK, but are probably noisy. CZ
CZ,
Thanks for that info, fortunately they have a test track and he has a policy of running all locos before you buy them. I will certainly be seeing it run before handing over any dollars. Perhaps I might have to research re-motoring? Got any good references?
What is the best thing to really clean the body before airbrushing? I don't want to paint it just to have it come off shortly afterwards or because I used a silican based cleaner causing a similar issue.
ngartshore350Perhaps I might have to research re-motoring? Got any good references? What is the best thing to really clean the body before airbrushing? I don't want to paint it just to have it come off shortly afterwards or because I used a silican based cleaner causing a similar issue. Nige.
Re-motoring and re-gearing is a lot easier than one would think. Definitely research and give it a whirl.
I just painted two brass cabooskies yesterday and the body prep/cleaining consisted of dish soap, warm water, and a toothbrush. Blow bry with compressed air (careful of the fine details). Painted locos the same way. To paint them correctly you need to blow them apart anyway so water isn't an issue.
And I always use primer.
San Dimas Southern slideshow
Packer CB&Q Modeler On the other hand UP. 4-6-6-4s & 4-8-8-4s have been done ad nauseum. Yet no one does a D&H, GN, NP, SP&S, or true DRGW Challengers. I'm not a steam guy, but wouldn't using one of the several hundred thousand UP challenger out there to kitbash into one of the non-modeled ones be possbile? They're kind of like the F-units to me, everyone does the ATSF ones, but no one does the BN ones.
Vincent:
One problem with kitbashing a UP Challenger into a GN/NP/SP&S "Z" series is that when you come right down to it, even though the UP Challengers were the most numerous (105) of the wheel arrangements, they were actually the kinda/sorta "babies" of that wheel arrangement as per length, weight and tractive effort. Those "Hill Line" Z-challengers were real beasts. Tall, long, and a lot heavier. You'd need to do a LOT of kit-bashing by literally constructing a new elongated boiler and bigger firebox and a totally different style of either open or enclosed cab. About the only thing the "Z"'s had in common with the UP Challengers is the wheel arrangement and the fact that they were both constructed by ALCO. Other than that, for sheer size and tractive effort, the "Z's" left the UP Challengers back at the starting gate, LOL!
Those UP Challengers were just fine for what they did on the road they were designed for, but the Hill Lines 4-6-6-4's were designed bigger and heavier for different territory.
And as far as the Rio Grande 3700 Baldwin-built L-105's--well, just looking at their lines and comparing them to the UP's, about all you'd be left with for starters would be the two sets of drivers. Everything else would have to be scratched. You'd be better off looking for a used Westside brass L-105--which actually can be got sometimes for about the same price as a new plastic UP Challenger.
IMO, the Rio Grande 3700's were the T-Rex's of 4-6-6-4's. They were just beautiful MONSTERS!
ngartshore350CAZEPHYR I don't have the U50 since it is newer than the era I model, but the Trains Inc. models were in general very poor runners. I know there are probably exceptions, but buying it unseen and not watching it run might lead to a big disappointment. The ALCO models which I have owned several were built by KTM and should run OK, but are probably noisy. CZ CZ, Thanks for that info, fortunately they have a test track and he has a policy of running all locos before you buy them. I will certainly be seeing it run before handing over any dollars. Perhaps I might have to research re-motoring? Got any good references? What is the best thing to really clean the body before airbrushing? I don't want to paint it just to have it come off shortly afterwards or because I used a silican based cleaner causing a similar issue. Nige.
Nige
Any good quality can motor with flywheels will improve those older units about 170% or more. Just the replacement of the early motors will make a difference. Be sure to get new slip tubing or use u joints for the drive to improve the slow resonse.
Painting is easy if you have the proper equipment. I use cleaners and a glass beading box to clean the brass. Using the glass bead cleaner at low pressure will make the brass look like new. Then it goes into an Ultra Sonic cleaner in a solution of water with a few drops of dish washing soap for about twenty minutes. Most modelers probably do not have this equipment, but you could arrange for a local painter to prep the model for you. At that point, the unit is painted and I use an oven to bake it at 190 degrees for at least 90 minutes. The finish is as good as you can get if you do this right.
twhitePacker CB&Q Modeler On the other hand UP. 4-6-6-4s & 4-8-8-4s have been done ad nauseum. Yet no one does a D&H, GN, NP, SP&S, or true DRGW Challengers. I'm not a steam guy, but wouldn't using one of the several hundred thousand UP challenger out there to kitbash into one of the non-modeled ones be possbile? They're kind of like the F-units to me, everyone does the ATSF ones, but no one does the BN ones. Vincent: You'd need to do a LOT of kit-bashing by literally constructing a new elongated boiler and bigger firebox and a totally different style of either open or enclosed cab. About the only thing the "Z"'s had in common with the UP Challengers is the wheel arrangement and the fact that they were both constructed by ALCO. Other than that, for sheer size and tractive effort, the "Z's" left the UP Challengers back at the starting gate, LOL! Those UP Challengers were just fine for what they did on the road they were designed for, but the Hill Lines 4-6-6-4's were designed bigger and heavier for different territory. IMO, the Rio Grande 3700's were the T-Rex's of 4-6-6-4's. They were just beautiful MONSTERS! Tom
You'd need to do a LOT of kit-bashing by literally constructing a new elongated boiler and bigger firebox and a totally different style of either open or enclosed cab. About the only thing the "Z"'s had in common with the UP Challengers is the wheel arrangement and the fact that they were both constructed by ALCO. Other than that, for sheer size and tractive effort, the "Z's" left the UP Challengers back at the starting gate, LOL!
You are absolutely correct and the the Z class being much larger overall than the UP Challengers. I have two of the Z8's and they are very large locomotives and were much heavier.
The D&RGW did not like the six UP copies of the Challengers since they were not as heavy as the L105's and would not do what the D&RWG needed on their line. The UP Challengers were made for fast running on light grades and did that job well. The weight on the drivers of the L105 was 479,979 lbs and the total engine weight was 641,900 listed in Steam's Finest hour.
The UP engines only had 404,000 on the drivers but weighed 627,000, which is not too far on total weight from the L105's. The weight on the drivers made the difference for pulling power.
I sometimes wish I had a 'Brass Book' here---b/c it might tell me this:
Did/Does anyone know whether this particular fellow was made in brass?---a "Virginian Ry" 2-10-10-2? I know that it was a drag freight specialist of some sort with a tractive effort of some 147,000 lbs compound. But------?
Of course one could scratchbuild --- yeah, right--- the thing--I think I may have enough brass in sheets and rods and enough wheelsets etc----
My collector side just went----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I don't have my Brown Book available, but I do remember somebody importing the Virginian 2-10-10-2. I will look it up when I get home.
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
Barry:
I hope someone can come up with the answer for you. That would be quite a loco in brass, by golly!
The only 2-10-10-2 in brass I ever remember seeing was a brass 'kitbash' by Bill Schopp in an article in Railroad Model Craftsman sometime during the 1960's. He took two Westside 900 series Santa Fe 2-10-2's and hacked them into a really SPECTACULAR Mallet!
Of course, this was back in the days when brass was 'relatively' affordable, and a modeler could do something like this without causing every one else to die of a heart attack, LOL!
Actually, Schopp gave me the courage to convert my PFM Santa Fe 2-10-2 into a kinda/sorta Rio Grande F-81. After that chilling 'first cut', the rest of it wasn't too bad. It's still running, and darned if it doesn't LOOK like an F-81, after I bought my new PSC model of the same loco a couple of years ago. In fact, I pair them up, sometimes, by golly!
dti406I don't have my Brown Book available, but I do remember somebody importing the Virginian 2-10-10-2. I will look it up when I get home.
The Virginian 2-10-10-2 was imported by Gem and Custom Brass, the last being in 1979. Some others might have been made later, but Custom Brass is listed as importing 200 each of those locomotives.
CZ, you wouldn't happen to have a suitably sized image of, I dunno, a UP 9000 to post here....woodja?
-Crandell
selectorCZ, you wouldn't happen to have a suitably sized image of, I dunno, a UP 9000 to post here....woodja? -Crandell
Sorry, I did not see the request until today.
How about a Sunset 9000 and a Key 9029?
For comparison, the almost fifty year old LMB KTM built 9000 in the early sixties.
CAZEPHYRFor comparison, the almost fifty year old LMB KTM built 9000 in the early sixties.
Wow, that's kind of lacking in the detail department, huh? Even for a 60s model. It's a good base for adding some good quality detail parts, though. Those Sunset and Key 4-12-2s, on the other hand, look amazing (better than the MTH, IMO!).
Here's my Samhongsa/Westside PRR 4-4-0!Great looking model, and great runner too! I did have to put in a stronger motor to get it that way (the old one was smooth, but it could barely slip the drivers), but the stock mechanism is smooth as silk.
_________________________________________________________________
Nice engines, CZ...I knew you'd come through. The last image of the front end pretty much addresses the original quesion for the thread.
Thanks for the photos of the 4-12-2's. If nothing else, the next time someone comments about the little vandy tender on my PSC Rio Grande F-81 I can at least grin and say: "You ever seen the tender on a UP 9000? Talk about STUBBY, LOL! "
Barry and Tom, I'm not exactly sure! I do remember that Bill Schopp did a kitbash for this locomotive but something stirs in the back of my head that sometime in either the late '60s or early '70s -- I seem to recall being in Germany with the Air Force at the time -- somebody offered this in a brass import.
Those 18000 gal tenders do look short compared when you look at them attached to the long 4-12-2. When you stand and look at the tender at the LA county fair grounds, it looks very large. We visited the 9000 many times in LA when I lived in Southern California and the SP5021 and UP 4014 is impressive also.
The detail on the three brass models shows the evolution of brass over the years. I remember in the late sixties when the United PFM models were considered very good and only the Crowns had better detail. Today the Bo Rim and Samtech models are probably the best ever in detail and just keep getting better. I still like the United and KTM models for reliability because they have heavy duty type gear boxes and the drive chassis should run many many years. The motors need replacing if you want to cut down on the current needed to run them, but the models are extremely reliable.
That PSC 2-10-2 is great.
I'm in total agreement with you about those gearboxes. I've got several PFM's and one KTM, and those drive trains are put together like tanks. And yes, I'm slowly but surely replacing some of the bigger current-draining open frame motors with NWSL cans (a very easy switch, in case anyone's wondering) and it's amazing how quiet and smooth older brass will run with the new motors.
And it's interesting to see how beautifully the detail on newer brass has evolved. I can put one of my newer Key or Sunsets or my brand new PSC alongside an older PFM or Westside and the difference is like night and day. The craftsmanship is amazing.
And if my PSC is any indication, current brass runs like a Swiss watch right out of the box. Astonishingly smooth response! No re-balancing or re-weighting needed, thank you. Just hook up the train and crawl it out of the yard.
I think my brass will still be running well, LONG after I'm gone. They're like grand pianos--the more you play them, the better they get!