Where Are All Master Layout Posters???

[blownout cylinder]

Dave Vollmer

I think the main reason the folks you consider "masters" don't post here are for reasons this forum probably doesn't want to hear.

Dave: I see you have a new can opener.---I think I know a couple---

[Dave Vollmer]

I think the main reason the folks you consider "masters" don't post here are for reasons this forum probably doesn't want to hear.

...but I'll elaborate anyway.

There's a high turnover of people here such that the very same topics are revisited in a cyclical manner (of order 4-6 months). The high proportion of novice modelers means very, very basic (to an expert or "master") questions are asked over and over, oft times answered incorrectly by other novices. This can become very tiresome after a few short years to long-time established modelers/members.

Then there's the fact that these forums are tremendously diverse... We're taught that diversity is good, and generally it is, but if your narrow interest is, say, NKP in HO in 1954 (or Pennsy in N in 1956), and you want to be around like-minded modelers from whom you can gain information (instead of just giving it), this would not be your place.

For me the perfect forum is one where I can learn as much or more than I can teach. AND, this is just me personally, but I prefer ones where the standards of spelling, punctuation, and grammar are fairly consistent.

There's a HUGE range of skill level here. We all have to start somewhere, but if you're a "master" you're probably not interested in what the guy just starting out has done with EZ Track and grass mat. There's nothing wrong with starting simple, but remember, these so-called "masters" have been at it for decades. And I won't mention the usual personality conflicts or flame wars.

Understand that NONE of these points is an indictment of trains.com; it serves a very important purpose for a broad audience. However, many of you will find after a number of years that the Internet is big enough that as your interests narrow, you can find forums that attend to your very specific interests.

I can tell you that I've run across many of the "masters" elsewhere on the internet, but I'll respect their privacy by not elaborating further.

[fmilhaupt]

Well, of the guys I know or am familiar with who might be considered "Master" layout builders and who have had their layouts and articles published, they break down like this:

• One modeler, who is a retired railroader and known for his intense interest in operations, only uses a computer to store, manipulate and view his digital photos, and to run his aging CTC-80 command control system.  He has no use for or interest in the internet. He's extremely active with both his indoor and outdoor layouts, as well as attending operating sessions and going on photo expeditions.
• Another well-known modeler, whose work has appeared in the pages of MR and several of the one-off magazines, and whose narrow-shelf multi-deck linear layout design ideas have influenced a number of operations-oriented guys who have been building or rebuilding their layouts in the past dozen or so years, is known for just not being very outgoing or gregarious.
• One up-and-comer whose layout has just started to get into the press is a young guy whose intense focus on building a fully-operational museum-quality layout doesn't leave him much time for anything other than his layout when he's not spending 60+ hours a week planning and managing signal projects for his employer, a Class One railroad. He's definitely one who'd rather do something than talk about it.
• Still another guy, who has received some coverage for his sizeable layout that is under construction and who is also very into operations, has a very well-defined focus of interests, and while he participates in online discussions, only participates in some of the Yahoo!Groups that are specific to his interests, rather than general forums.

From my point of view as someone who considers himself a comparative "nobody" in the grand scheme of the hobby, I know that when the switching layout I plan to build this winter gets under way my participation in general forums will diminish, and once I finally have the space to build the "lifetime" layout I'm planning, I'll probably all but disappear from the general forums.

It pretty much boils down to how you want to spend your time.

[pastorbob]

I will add amen to that.  You created a realistic, believable scene there.  It isn't Oklahoma, but it is beautiful.  You do indeed have an artists eye.

Bob

[markpierce]

Nice autumn scene, CNJ831.  Trees exhibit natural color and texture.  The scene avoids the intense "polka dot" look.

Mark

[Medina1128]

Face it, to get published, your layout has to be a "finished" product (which goes against the "a layout is never done" edict), so with more free time on their hands, maybe the wives are like, "ok, this thing is close to being done (in her eyes), so she breaks out the 5 years and holding "honey do" list.

[Geared Steam]

Driline

Geared Steam

Is that a fact? Does Joe know this? You better PM him quick to let him know.

 

If you you were paying any attention at all to his previous posts...you'd know. I'm not going to get into it here.

I was paying attention to his posts, matter of fact I went back and reviewed them, no where is a hint of what you claim, but I agree, not this is not the place. 

[donhalshanks]

I lightly started to read this thread and then got more interested as it unfolded.  It saddens me if the "masters" might not participate, and I really hope they are but maybe incognito.  After all, it is how my modeling gets better and I learn how to improve it.

Perhaps the "masters" need to approach it like that really good professor  you had in school..... who passionately imparts all of his learned knowledge through the year and which goes in one ear and out the other of half the class.  But the other half, well he knows they are better for having heard it and they prosper from it.... and then there are the one or two who embrace it entirely and are proteges and take his content to even higher levels in their lives.

Perhaps the "masters" should leave their solutions and replies in (perhaps for them this mundane) forum..... and then like that good professor.... walk out of the room when the lecture ends.  He never hears the sneers, impersonations, bad jokes, discontent back at the dorm from the losers half..... but expects it if he does.  And the winners half..... well they get the good grades and he is proud to have helped.... and the one or two, go on to get their PHD and accolades and trophies and the "Master" welcomes them into the best of best......  that "other" RR forum I'm light years away from understanding.

I don't know if the many of you who have answered my novice questions were masters or not.... but I know you gave me dawgone good solutions for my problems.  And because of them, I continue to enjoy my RR modeling.  Please don't leave me stranded.... hang in there like a good professor for me!

Hal    

 

 

 

[CNJ831]

blownout cylinder

CNJ831

csxns

CNJ831 you are a Master Modeler your layout looks as good or better so have you tried or been ask to have it in MR.

Actually, I was approached by one of MR's editors back in the mid 1990's (as a result of a number of my layout photos appearing in MR in TSP) asking if I'd be interested in preparing something. I passed on the offer at the time since I was about to start my current layout, which would be to even higher standards. Unfortunately, progress on the HHRR (it's about 2/3's done) in the past year, or two, has proven progressively slower and slower. I probably should have availed myself of that earlier offer!  

CNJ831

I hope you kept photos of that one!! That issue is a murphyism for sure! BTW--the fall colours are exactly to the colour values that we see around here. I'm kinda curious as to what you do to the trees to tone the things down

Yes, some photos of my older pike (mainly in aging photo transparency format) do survive.

Re my autumn trees, for a number of years I dabbled in painting oil landscapes, which gave me a pretty good eye for judging colors in nature. The autumnal scenes on my layout, like the one below, take quite a while to create since I often keep making minor adjustments for weeks after the scene is "completed".

I do find that nearly all the basic commercial autumn foilage ground foam is much too harsh in color to look realistic. Mixing colors and toning them down it the key. Many of my trees are literally weathered to attain the right blend of hues and intensity, plus sometimes I will apply a final overspray of highly diluted reefer orange to a scene, a shade that is prevalent to most New England forests in the height of autumn.

 

CNJ831  

[mobilman44]

Hi!

You know, maybe the "master layout" builders are on this forum, but choose to remain anonymous and kind of stay in the background.  On a similar note, the MR staff probably reads a whole lot of the postings here, but only post when the subject is near and dear to their hearts/expertise.

For what its worth,

Mobilman44

[blownout cylinder]

CNJ831

csxns

CNJ831 you are a Master Modeler your layout looks as good or better so have you tried or been ask to have it in MR.

Actually, I was approached by one of MR's editors back in the mid 1990's (as a result of a number of my layout photos appearing in MR in TSP) asking if I'd be interested in preparing something. I passed on the offer at the time since I was about to start my current layout, which would be to even higher standards. Unfortunately, progress on the HHRR (it's about 2/3's done) in the past year, or two, has proven progressively slower and slower. I probably should have availed myself of that earlier offer!  

CNJ831

I hope you kept photos of that one!! That issue is a murphyism for sure! BTW--the fall colours are exactly to the colour values that we see around here. I'm kinda curious as to what you do to the trees to tone the things down

[CNJ831]

csxns

CNJ831 you are a Master Modeler your layout looks as good or better so have you tried or been ask to have it in MR.

Actually, I was approached by one of MR's editors back in the mid 1990's (as a result of a number of my layout photos appearing in MR in TSP) asking if I'd be interested in preparing something. I passed on the offer at the time since I was about to start my current layout, which would be to even higher standards. Unfortunately, progress on the HHRR (it's about 2/3's done) in the past year, or two, has proven progressively slower and slower. I probably should have availed myself of that earlier offer!  

CNJ831

[dehusman]

There are dozens of forums on Yahoo Groups.  They vary in the activity but the range of subjects is staggering.

Railroad Line Forums is heavily into craftsman structures.  If you want to see highly detailed buildings and treatises on weathering structures, etc., this forum has that.

The Yahoo Group Rwy-industrial-ops is about the only only heavily trafficed list that deals with operations in any depth.  Other lists might have a thread once or twice a month, if you want to know about signalling, rules, train orders, operating your layout prototypically, what industries use and supply, that's the place.

For those interested in overseas stuff, RM-web forums is very interesting.  The Brits are very much into incredible detail.

[jmbjmb]

CNJ831

Sir Madog

 Imagine a forum, for master model railroaders exclusively. What should they talk about, they have a proven record of knowing just about every aspect there is in model railroading? No open questions, no answers missing...

What a boring forum this would be!!!

Actually, in the real world that's quite far from the truth. I participate in a couple of such forums mainly populated by advanced hobbyists, many of them well known through their published articles in MR and elsewhere. There are never a lack of interesting and lengthy threads on all manner of subjects.

Believe me, new modeling techniques are being developed all the time by these guys, ideas you probably won't see mentioned in MR until years from now. Likewise, just seeing how different modelers approach the very same say structure model, scenery problem, etc. (and describe just how it was overcome) is quite incredible and an absolute wealth of new information.

Ain't nothing "boring" on such "masters" forums!

CNJ831  

 

Not to sound too dumb here, but what are some of those other forums?  I'd love to learn some of that new information.

[Texas Zepher]

 I would guess they are too busy working on their layouts and writing articles about them to waste time posting messages on a discussion forum.

On a computer science forum, we lost all the good serious masters because people wouldn't stay on topic and insisted on "chatting".  I've always been surprised on this forum at how long the more or less off topic threads so.  Post something serious and one is lucky to get discussion and stay on the first two pages for more than a day.  Post something frivolous and the thread hangs around for weeks.  Just go look at some of the current "more popular" threads.   

Why spend 15-60 minutes posting a message that is going to get booted to page 4 in two days? 

[Driline]

Geared Steam

Is that a fact? Does Joe know this? You better PM him quick to let him know.

 

Yes it is. If you you were paying any attention at all to his previous posts...you'd know. I'm not going to get into it here.

[PA&ERR]

 Of course, there is always the possibility, however slight, that these "Masters" whose work we all admire so much, might actually have lives and thus have better things to do than spend their every waking minute posting on forums...

 Just a thought...

-Kosmo

[TMarsh]

selector

I also think that the vast majority of those who walk heavily on discussion forums would turn out to be vastly different if face-to-face with some of those with whom they routinely contend.  The lamb will only taunt the fox from the far side of the stream.

That's what I have said many times. Unfortunate isn't it. Like I've been told (I believe by you) it should be ignored. Maybe they will change or go away. (Last sentence was mine not yours)

As for the moderators, tough call on who is taunting and who just used a poor choice of words that they meant one way but reads different. Someone will inevitably take it wrong.

To Ryan Reed, it is unfortunate for us all that that kind of stuff happens. By driving a "Master" off of the forum is a price all of us who listen pay. Like they always say it's the few that ruin it for the rest.

The forum should not be a coddling forum but an encouraging forum. Unfortunately some say encouraging and coddling are the same. If in addition to the suggestions for improvement a person is improving then tell them so or if they do something correct then tell them so. That's not coddling that's encouraging. Oh and just plain old fashioned polite. The object is to help someone and in order to help someone they also need to know what they are doing correctly. That's not arguable, ask any educator and they will tell you the same.

 

[reklein]

     There are guys who post on here that give advice when they have no experience and there are other guys who speak with authority bred from experience. I guess one has to read between the lines. When someone like Joe Fugate or Bob Grech offer techniques, we pay attention. Others.................... well,nuff said.  I also pay attention to advice with MMR behind their name because its initials they've earned. I myself am not a MMR, BILL

[pastorbob]

I have to post one more time on this.  I just received my new issue of MR and opened it up to see a really good Santa Fe layout.  I looked at the photos and the trackplan, because he is modeling the Santa Fe in Oklahoma and Kansas, roughly the same area, and the same time period.  After admiring the modeling work, I saw the words "N" scale.  Wow!  It sure fooled me,  and the builder is an Austrailan, certainly not easy modeling the Santa Fe from "down there".  So from an HO modeler to the N scale community, again, wow!

Note to Sammy Carlisle, thought I was looking at your layout at first.

Bob

[Loco]

 NOOO!!!!! I need my funny hats!!!!!!!!!!!!  That actually happened as I had a train cap on the other day and someone said that to me. 

[Robt. Livingston]

I've always had the utmost respect for those who do the research and publish the findings.  Without that activity, much information would remain forever locked away in obscure archives.  Too much of model railroading is devoted to aping the work of so-called "masters", by building models of models, rather than models of real things. I value original thinking and I value quality model making.  I don't value titles and honorifics.  Sure, they are fun to receive, and fun to give, but the real value in the hobby lies elsewhere.  

We can all be masters, if we want to put in the work to improve our modeling techniques and our knowledge of whatever we are trying to model.  It takes time and effort.  The titles, badges, and the funny hats (if any) are irrelevant. 

[Loco]

 Ryan, and others, I hope that maybe, just maybe we can change that sort of thing.  Get folks back involved.... I for one will do my best to facilitate such exchanges. (perhaps that's a part of the reason why I started the thread).  But I do understand the burdens, railroading is not really my area of expertise (YET!!!) but I've been in them shoes.  In another life I was one of the "go to guys"..... 

In any case, glad you posted. 

 

[selector]

Thanks for your post, Ryan.  Many people won't give it out straight.  I happen to think it is an uphill slog for everyone on discussion lists.  Those who are malcontents, angry, judgmental, snippy, egotistical, envious, lazy, and a host of other characeristics have as tough a time expressing themselves so that others understand as do you and people of other leanings, inlcuding the truly accomplished and knowledgeable. 

It is no less difficult for moderators.  While the several 'camp's are sniping at each other, to the extent that such camps exist, the moderators are going to displease at least one of them whenever they influence the discourse by a deletion, edit, or some other intervention where one or more of them necessarliy feels they have been interfered with or marginalized.

If I were someone highly sought for some hard-won ability, I don't think I would keep too much of a profile except on venues where I was treated respectfully.  But as you do, I would try to give back, to coach and to mentor, so that the abilities were always fresh and continually developed for the good of the greater body of people in the pursuit.

I also think that the vast majority of those who walk heavily on discussion forums would turn out to be vastly different if face-to-face with some of those with whom they routinely contend.  The lamb will only taunt the fox from the far side of the stream.

-Crandell

[csxns]

Ryan,you said it right.

[Ryan Reed]

...There's no secret society. No elitist group. In fact, I strongly believe in sharing knowledge and skill.

-Ryan

[PA&ERR]

Midnight Railroader

TrainManTy

Does that mean that whenever I get my layout published in MR (I've written the article, but I need more photos to include in it!) then I can't post here anymore?

 

 

 

It may mean that, once you get paid to write, you'll decide not to give away your stuff anymore.

 

Bingo! 

-Kosmo

[Milepost 266.2]

Railphotog

Sir Madog

What the heck did the NMRA think, when they created that nonsense of "master model railroader"

 It´s the work that honors the maker, not the title!

The NMRA's Achievement Program (AP) does just that, it acknowledges achievements made by model railroaders.    The AP is divided into many parts, and if a member demonstrates his abilities in a certain number of them, then he achieves the highest one of Master Model Railroader (MMR).  So it is his body of work that earns the title.

The many facets of the hobby are represented by the different certificates in the program - Master Builder of Cars, Locomotives, Scenery and Structures; Electrical and Civil engineering; sevice to the hobby awards - Author, Association Volunteer and Association Official; and operating proficiency in Model Railroad Dispatcher.  I think there is at least one more that I cannot recall at the moment.

The requirements are well spelled out for each award, and they are not given out but earned.  The MMR title is awarded to modelers who achieve seven certificates, which must be spread around the categories.  It shows the recipient is not only a good modeler but has also done his part to help others in the hobby.

Please explain to me how this NMRA program is "nonsense".

 

 

Another positive aspect of the MMR program is that it encourages participation in the NMRA, clubs, and other group activities.   In fact, a certain level of participation is *reqired* to satisfy the criteria.  This not only helps the prospective MMR, but those around them.

Just looked over the program on the NMRA's site.  It seems like it could use a little updating, as many of the "electrical engineer" criteria are a bit antiquated.  I can't imagine them adding "participate in an internet forum" as a goal, though.

[reklein]

I agree with Boudreau, besides, hes had photos posted in MR since the early 80s anyway,I've always liked his work. BILL

[Railphotog]

Sir Madog

What the heck did the NMRA think, when they created that nonsense of "master model railroader"

 It´s the work that honors the maker, not the title!

The NMRA's Achievement Program (AP) does just that, it acknowledges achievements made by model railroaders.    The AP is divided into many parts, and if a member demonstrates his abilities in a certain number of them, then he achieves the highest one of Master Model Railroader (MMR).  So it is his body of work that earns the title.

The many facets of the hobby are represented by the different certificates in the program - Master Builder of Cars, Locomotives, Scenery and Structures; Electrical and Civil engineering; sevice to the hobby awards - Author, Association Volunteer and Association Official; and operating proficiency in Model Railroad Dispatcher.  I think there is at least one more that I cannot recall at the moment.

The requirements are well spelled out for each award, and they are not given out but earned.  The MMR title is awarded to modelers who achieve seven certificates, which must be spread around the categories.  It shows the recipient is not only a good modeler but has also done his part to help others in the hobby.

Please explain to me how this NMRA program is "nonsense".