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Talk me out of buying a Shay!

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Posted by Margaritaman on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 5:21 PM

DO NOT BUY A SHAY!!!

Because if you do you'll end up collecting the darn things, and in brass no less.  And then you'll have to have a Climax, then a Heisler, then a Duplex (ya I know not logging but same idea), two trucks, three trucks.  All started by the Bachmann unit.  Oh ya, you'll then get into re-motoring and re-gearing the silly things. 

Just DON'T DO IT!  Of course if you have some self control then the Bachmann unit can't be beat for the money.

 

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Posted by reklein on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 5:56 PM

Probably as a direct result of this thread I ordered a shay off the new MicroMark catalog I recieved day before yesterday.The price was just under $80. I showed the ad to my wife and she said Wow! you should get one then. Rather than fall out of my chair I ordered one immediatly,and was promptly put on the backorder list. But,they will hold it for me at that price. How nice.Whistling  Isn't Anticipation half the fun of getting something? BILL

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Posted by BigBlueConrail on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:19 PM

 

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Posted by challenger3980 on Wednesday, August 19, 2009 10:24 PM

twhite

Of course, if you were modeling logging operations out here on the Pacific Coast in Washington or California, you could always forego the Shay and invest in a 2-6-6-2 tank logging Mallet, but since you're back east, I'd get a Shay. 

Besides, they're neat. Tongue

Tom Big Smile

Hi Tom,

  Did you know that the Rayonier 2-6-6-2 #8, is stored in Chehalis, WA? The Guy that owns it, intends to restore it, but it is questionable whether or not he has the financial and other resources required for such a project. At least she has dodged  the scrappers  torch for a bit longer. It would be great to see this locomotive under steam again. I have some pictures, but haven't loaded them into the computer or photobucket yet, I will try to post some soon.

Doug

May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails

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Posted by dinwitty on Thursday, August 20, 2009 12:02 AM

 I am not trying to talk you out of a shay, I had an MDC Narrow Gauge shay, built right it ran like a dream and ran at my club show continuously on public display. Lube yours right, check the mechanics out, it should run great.

 

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:37 AM

challenger3980

Hi Tom,

  Did you know that the Rayonier 2-6-6-2 #8, is stored in Chehalis, WA? The Guy that owns it, intends to restore it, but it is questionable whether or not he has the financial and other resources required for such a project.

 

... I remember seeing back in 1974. I was already in a pretty bad shape, as most of the other stock just left outside and rust...  Unfortunately I have lost all the color slides I took on that occasion - 35 years is a long time!

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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:46 AM

C & O Steam

I am starting a new layout and would like to add a Logging operation. I have been looking at buying a Shay for some time now but with all the negetave things that I have read I am afraid to make the investment. I looked at one in the LHS a couple weeks and it seemed to run very jerkey. Is this normal or is this one of the many problems.

Now come on, why should we talk you out of buying something that you know you want so badly you can taste it.Big Smile Some of the Shays have problems, some. You either get a good one or a bad one. If you get a bad one send it back and they'll send you another one.

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:55 AM

C & O Steam

I am starting a new layout and would like to add a Logging operation. I have been looking at buying a Shay for some time now but with all the negetave things that I have read I am afraid to make the investment. I looked at one in the LHS a couple weeks and it seemed to run very jerkey. Is this normal or is this one of the many problems.

It's hard to judge an engine right out of the box. I normally do a break-in by running the new engine for 15 min. forward at about 3/4 full power, then 15 min in reverse the same way. That usually makes a difference, you can also check to see if it needs lubrication. Most engines are lubed at the factory but an engine you buy at the LHS may have sat on the shelf for a year or two so might need a touch of lube.

Keep in mind geared engines weren't the only ones used in logging operations. Here in Minnesota the most common logging engine was probably the 2-6-0, though logging railroads often just bought whatever they could pick up second hand, including 4-4-0s and 2-8-0s. Maybe only 1/3 of logging engines here were geared locomotives.

Stix
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Posted by richg1998 on Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:23 PM

C & O Steam

Ok, that settles it....I don't want a Shay, I don't need a Shay and I am not going to buy a Shay....Well maybe another trip to the LHS just to see if they still have them in stock. I can always just look it won't hurt anything..............................

 

 

 

And the answer is...............................

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

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Posted by selector on Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:37 PM

wjstix

One thing about a Shay is it's only "interesting" on one side, since all the cylinders and such are on the right hand side of the boiler... 

Say whaaa...?  I look at it like this: as much as I am a nut about steam engines, and of course principally their rods and gear, it would be interesting to see a steamer from the side on which nothing seems to be effecting any locomotion.  Someone not in the know would turn to the person next to him/her and ask, "Isn't there something strange about this steam locomotive?  What makes the wheels go 'round?"  The other person crooks his finger to indicate, "Follow me," and takes the viewer to the other side where all is made clear.  Sort of...since it's still an odd kind of steamer at first glance. Big Smile

-Crandell

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Posted by PASMITH on Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:52 PM
Has anyone tried to make a 45ton or smaller Heisler by bashing a Rivarossi? On second thought, that might be difficult. Peter Smith, Memphis.
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Posted by don7 on Thursday, August 20, 2009 6:10 PM

Should this not be a new thread?

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Thursday, August 20, 2009 6:55 PM

If you were modeling the area I model, you couldn't use a Shay in your (logging) business.  The Kiso Forest Railway had a bigger territory than most American logging roads, and a main line built to Class 1 mainline standards (steel bridges, long tunnels, concrete retaining structures above and below the tracks...)  Until 1960, the logs were pulled out of the woods by 0-4-2T rear-tank Baldwins!  Those were replaced by diesel-mechanicals, most with only four wheels.

The tender version of the Mantua/Tyco 2-6-6-2 was used in lumber service before being sold to Guatemala.

OTOH, the Alishan Forest Railway (Taiwan) used Shays almost exclusively.  It had a 4% ruling grade, and a 1:1 scale multi-turn helix wrapped around Tsu-li-Shan.  (Yes, the Shays were Lima-built.)

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by SilverSpike on Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:14 PM

I have an old Roundhouse Shay kit I bought about 25 years ago and never built! I may sell it one day, I hear they are impossible to get to work right!  Whistling

Ryan Boudreaux
The Piedmont Division
Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger era
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Posted by Margaritaman on Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:42 PM

don7

Should this not be a new thread?

No.

Quite the opposite.  These posts are all the reasons in the world why one SHOULD get into Shays and related locos.

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Posted by richg1998 on Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:37 PM

 

SilverSpike

I have an old Roundhouse Shay kit I bought about 25 years ago and never built! I may sell it one day, I hear they are impossible to get to work right!  Whistling

Not true. It can be done. There is info in a Yahoo mdc roundhouse site but you need to be a member to see the info. I am not at liberty to post the info here. If you join, look at the messages and Photos sections concerning the Shay. You can download the info yourself if you like.

Parts, motor from NWSL along with other parts.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mdcroundhouse/

Rich

 

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

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Posted by Flashwave on Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:33 PM

dinwitty
they can only pull logs

 

WRONG!!! UP used them to haul ore. NYC put a shroud around them (make them look more like a boxcar and not like a steam loco to scare the horse) and used them to switch the harbor districts.

-Morgan

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Posted by 0-6-0 on Friday, August 21, 2009 7:56 AM

richg1998

C & O Steam

Ok, that settles it....I don't want a Shay, I don't need a Shay and I am not going to buy a Shay....Well maybe another trip to the LHS just to see if they still have them in stock. I can always just look it won't hurt anything..............................

 

 

 

And the answer is...............................

Rich

Rich I don't think we will get a answer anytime soon. He to busy running that new shayBig Smile. Frank
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Posted by C & O Steam on Friday, August 21, 2009 8:58 AM

And the answer is...........................................I am not running it yet, but hope to be by the end of next week.

Thanks guys for all the help.

 

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Posted by BerkshireSteam on Friday, August 21, 2009 9:37 AM

C & O Steam

And the answer is...........................................I am not running it yet, but hope to be by the end of next week.

Thanks guys for all the help.

 

Heislers and Shays and Climax's oh my Shock Some how I think most of them knew this would be your conclusion. I didn't know there was such a following for geared locomotives beyond the Shay. This is bad news, I really like the Shay. Partly looks, partly because it was geared. So now course I will probably spend the next few hours Googling this masterpieces.

Modeling question: how many cars can your geared locomotive (any of the 3) pull up your max grade? What is your max grade?

Prototype question: where the geared locos used in anything besides logging? From what I've read and what not a reason they were used for logging is because steep grades and such, but something like a quarry or strip mine could have steep grades too. Can anyone else see a...we'll say 3 truck Shay pulling a few gondolas of crushed stone up a...say 4% grade out of a quarry? Or how about a 40' flat with a couple of 10 ton blocks of...granite. Or limeston. Or shale, well maybe not a big block of it but, you know, it's another type of rock. Or maybe a Heisler hauling a flat car up the ramp with pyramid cap on it....Sign - Oops, I pulled the lever back to fast on the time machine. Heislers in ancient egypt? I must have landed on a bug or something that last trip I took to see the Mayians.

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Posted by Hamltnblue on Friday, August 21, 2009 2:59 PM

Springfield PA

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Posted by mmartian22 on Friday, August 21, 2009 5:54 PM

hi  ive 6 of them heislers climaxs shays and they all run great  as with the bachmann's get the gears from nswl  and you should no problem  with them.

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Posted by Flashwave on Friday, August 21, 2009 7:26 PM

MILW-RODR

Prototype question: where the geared locos used in anything besides logging? From what I've read and what not a reason they were used for logging is because steep grades and such, but something like a quarry or strip mine could have steep grades too. Can anyone else see a...we'll say 3 truck Shay pulling a few gondolas of crushed stone up a...say 4% grade out of a quarry? Or how about a 40' flat with a couple of 10 ton blocks of...granite. Or limeston. Or shale, well maybe not a big block of it but, you know, it's another type of rock. Or maybe a Heisler hauling a flat car up the ramp with pyramid cap on it....Sign - Oops, I pulled the lever back to fast on the time machine. Heislers in ancient egypt? I must have landed on a bug or something that last trip I took to see the Mayians.

Actually, I just answered your question 2 posts up from your original.

-Morgan

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Posted by JimRCGMO on Saturday, August 22, 2009 4:39 PM

I'm sure someone already mentioned it, but a Shay forces you to run slower (since my MDC RTR 2-truck one only gets about 17-18 scale mph, and seems like it might bust a boiler gasket at that!), which makes the time between your loggin camp and your return destination more prototypically long. I had mine re-worked by one of our local MRR club members with NWSL parts, and a decoder put in it at the same time (now, if only I'd thought about where Kevin coulda put a speaker...). I probably have $125 or so put into it (forgot what I paid on the 'Bay for it originally), and would love to locate another 2-truck Shay.

Enjoy, C&O!

Jim in Cape Girardeau

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Posted by PASMITH on Sunday, August 23, 2009 1:58 PM
I found an old picture of my geared locomotives. Since this picture was taken, I have added a Bachmann Climax and bashed and repainted the Bachmann three truck Shay. The first four locos are 30 inch gauge ( HOn30). The first two are scratch built and the next two are Flying Zoo brass. The last four are standard gauge. ( NWSL vertical boiler brass Shay, Bachmann three truck Shay, PFM brass Shay and a Rivarossi Hesler. Peter Smith, Memphis
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Posted by BerkshireSteam on Monday, August 24, 2009 9:57 AM

Flashwave

dinwitty
they can only pull logs

 

WRONG!!! UP used them to haul ore. NYC put a shroud around them (make them look more like a boxcar and not like a steam loco to scare the horse) and used them to switch the harbor districts.

That must have been some very long, slow work. I bet it looked really cool though. Of course, I'm picturing a Shay with like dozen ore cars behind it, something that from the sounds of things wouldn't happen. I also have to admit a slight weakness for the Mantua 2-6-6-2's. Not the tanked logging versions, but the tender version. Now if I could just get that and a 2-4-4-2 tendered mallet version I would be set. Is anyone else starting to imagine a harbor scene full of log strings coupled behind Heislers and Climaxs waiting to be loaded onto a car ferry? I think I'm starting to imagine too much again Whistling
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Posted by SilverSpike on Monday, August 24, 2009 10:18 AM

richg1998

 

SilverSpike

I have an old Roundhouse Shay kit I bought about 25 years ago and never built! I may sell it one day, I hear they are impossible to get to work right!  Whistling

 

Not true. It can be done. There is info in a Yahoo mdc roundhouse site but you need to be a member to see the info. I am not at liberty to post the info here. If you join, look at the messages and Photos sections concerning the Shay. You can download the info yourself if you like.

Parts, motor from NWSL along with other parts.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mdcroundhouse/

Rich

 

Hey Rich, thanks for the info, I'll have to check that out, and maybe I will just keep my Shay kit around a bit longer too!

 

Ryan Boudreaux
The Piedmont Division
Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger era
Cajun Chef Ryan

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Posted by fwright on Monday, August 24, 2009 10:28 AM

MILW-RODR

That must have been some very long, slow work. I bet it looked really cool though. Of course, I'm picturing a Shay with like dozen ore cars behind it, something that from the sounds of things wouldn't happen. I also have to admit a slight weakness for the Mantua 2-6-6-2's. Not the tanked logging versions, but the tender version. Now if I could just get that and a 2-4-4-2 tendered mallet version I would be set. Is anyone else starting to imagine a harbor scene full of log strings coupled behind Heislers and Climaxs waiting to be loaded onto a car ferry? I think I'm starting to imagine too much again Whistling

On the contrary, switching is done at slow speeds where geared locomotives excel.  5-10 MPH for switching is the norm - and fits very well within a Shay's or Climax's speed range.  Heislers could go a little faster because of their larger driver size.

The Gilpin Tram was a 2ft gauge mining line in Colorado that used Shays as primary power.  Similarly, the Black Hills mining lines liked Heislers for making their runs to/from the mines.

A typical mining or logging line using geared power could make a 20-30 mile run, drop off empties and pick up 30 loaded cars (actual number depending on grades and size of operation) and bring them back to the smelter or mill by the end of the day.

The dog hole ports were used to load coastal Northern California lumber on ships.  The most common arrangement was a rail line to bring the logs down to the mill.  Then some more rail to transport the lumber from the mill to a cliff, where a high line (wire cable) was used to move the lumber from the cliff to the anchored ship.  Some of the ports used docks for loading the ships, but the docks often were wiped out by winter storms.  The ship then took the lumber to San Francisco or San Diego. 

Even Class 1 lines before WW1 favored drag freight operations over their mountain grades - haul as much tonnage as possible at one time, even if it only moved at 5-10 MPH.  Many of the early large steamers were built precisely for this drag service, and were incapable of operations above about 30-40 MPH.

yours in geared steam

Fred W

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Posted by BerkshireSteam on Monday, August 24, 2009 11:04 AM

fwright

A typical mining or logging line using geared power could make a 20-30 mile run, drop off empties and pick up 30 loaded cars (actual number depending on grades and size of operation) and bring them back to the smelter or mill by the end of the day.

It kicked in after I read your post that Shays=slow and slow=switching. It also kicked in that the person saying their Shay could only handle 7-8 cars on flat and 3-4 cars on grade was probably talking about his model, not the prototype.

fwright

The dog hole ports were used to load coastal Northern California lumber on ships.  The most common arrangement was a rail line to bring the logs down to the mill.  Then some more rail to transport the lumber from the mill to a cliff, where a high line (wire cable) was used to move the lumber from the cliff to the anchored ship.  

Now THAT would be something to see modeled. That could be a good deal if someone is building a logging type layout and had a corner to fill. They could even model it so the poor sap of a new guy is swimming out to the ship with the high line tied to his waiste Laugh. I hear some of them things can get pretty unruley towards any greenhorns (no I'm not talking about polywogs).

Now you guys have to stop it. I have a limited space for a layout, should probably think about N scale, and you guys just keeping talking about 2 truck Shays and 3 truck Shays and I'm starting to really want a Shay. Do dumb little tinker toy N scale either, HO or O scale. A super detailed highly weathered O scale 3-truck Shay. Now that would be a piece-dey-rezis-tawnc

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Posted by don7 on Monday, August 24, 2009 1:30 PM

Canadian Pacific had two Shay locomotives working the Rossland/Trail area hauling ore in Southeast BC

http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_107/b_06610.gif

http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_136/f_05629.gif

http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_106/b_05085.gif

Take a look at the third picture, quite a number of ore cars being pulled.

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