And the answer is!
My Shay arrived today,thanks to hamltnblue and I am a happy camper, thanks everyone for talking me out of buying one................ Now if I just had my layout complete so I could run it.
Mike,
Glad to hear that your Shay found a good home.
Hi Climaxpwr
Weird coincidence.
There's someone in your town with an engine that looks just like yours. He's getting rid of it or trading for a different reason. He's changing railroads and not trying to keep his home.
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13801
Springfield PA
Geared Steam As far as the Atlas N, I see a new run is scheduled for Dec 09, I also Googled "Atlas N scale Shay" and reserve pricing is $135.00, seems like a good price to me. You know you want one.....
As far as the Atlas N, I see a new run is scheduled for Dec 09, I also Googled "Atlas N scale Shay" and reserve pricing is $135.00, seems like a good price to me. You know you want one.....
Edit: Ok I've looked all over (20+ pages on google) and couldn't find anything (not even the Class D 4-trucker diagram i already have) with Shay dimensions.
Does anyone know the size of 2-truck N scale and the 3-truck HO scale? Lenght, width, truck center, coupler length, all those fun little things that I can put into XtrckCAD and run.
On the Climax locomotives, only the early class A locomotives have the 2 speed gear box, when they switched to the class B machines with the canted cylinders, they didnt get the gear box. Contrary to many opinions they do not "shake" themselvse to death. Only if the crankshaft is worn or bent do they vibrate, other wise they are as smooth as any other standard steam locomotive. While Climax was 3rd behind Heisler, it wasnt because it was a bad design, most lines that ran them loved them and bought more. But the Climax company of Corry PA was a small company and thus you have small production totals. They were also a late comer to the whole geared steam ballgame. Heislers were made in Erie, PA, some of the factory is still standing. To bad Bachmann's HO Climax kind of flopped in the quality dept. Many were hoping for a 3 truck version in a couple years after the first one came out. They really need to address this issue of popping gears and other line shaft parts. They are not "aging" thier delrin plastic correct affording to the folks at NWSL, so when its on a metal shaft as it ages it splits. Many early brass diesels have this issue, along with Athearns USRA Mikado and early P2K diesels. My little shay is off to a new home now, she was just to small for the logging branch at the local club, my larger PFM Climax handles the loads much better. Cheers Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
shayfan84325Geared steam, you gotta love it.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I've been reading this thread with interest and finally feel inspired to chime in on a few of the comments that have been brought up.
Regarding the Atlas N-scale Shay, I have a friend who has an HO scale module (modular club layout) that includes a mine. He bought the Atlas N-scale shay and put an HO scale cab on it, and he made a few other cosmetic modifications - he uses it as an HOn30 loco for the mine. It looks great and runs very well; at shows he runs it constantly for days and it has held up great. I do kid him about having such a tiny 3-cylinder two truck (class B) shay (if there were a prototype it would likely be a two-cylinder engine).
With regard to where they were typically used, one of the great advantages to shays (and other geared locomotives) is that they track equally well in both directions so the need to turn locomotives is eliminated with them. They also do fairly well on rough track - in fact, on some logging railroads they actually used wooden poles for rails and replaced the wheels on the locos/rolling stock with some that looked sort of like pulleys. It would seem logical to use Shays in any rough track situation and when there is no option for turning locomotives.
Regarding the evolution of geared locomotives, I believe that Shays were the first commecially successful geared locomotive type, but speed was always lacking. The Heisler and Climax were attempts at getting the advantages of a Shay with a little more get up and go. The Climax was not popular among the crews because it had an annoying level of vibration. I've read that Climaxes did have a two-speed gearbox, so you really could put them in high gear.
My ex-brother-in-law is a live steamer. He says that they have one club member who runs a Shay. When this guy shows up at the club track everyone else packs up and goes home, because his Shay is like a moving road block and it's no fun to be stuck behind him on a Mogul, running at a snail's/Shay's pace.
As for me, I love 'em and have 4 brass Shays and a brass Heisler. They all run well, but the NWSL Shay did require some tinkering. They do take a special mindset to run them, because they should be run slowly to apper like the prototypes. I built a Roundhouse kit. I'm disappointed in the way it runs, and I plan to do some research and then rework it to make it better.
Finally, I'll close with a picture:
My NWSL 18T Shay stops for water in Blackwater, Oregon. Geared steam, you gotta love it.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
I've run my Shay down to 8.7'' at my "Pizza layout".
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
MILW-RODR ....Like the prototypes, these locomotives can negotiate very sharp curves down to a minimum radius of 9-3/4". It confuses me a litte that they're heralding 9 3/4R curve when that's the N scale standard minimum. My (Atlas) GP9 can go around that. Now they just need to drop prices. The 2-truck N in DC will be 200 bucks. Bachmanns 3-trucker with DCC and sound was 424. I forgot to write down the price of the straight DC. As a comparison the Bachmann 2-10-0 Russian Decapod in HO is going for 180 in DC, 335 in DCC w/sound (I'm looking at getting one for my collection). Why can't they make the 2-trucker Shay in HO? I think the 2-trucker looks better. The N is more affordable, but remembering how small my GP9er is and then thinking the Shay would be smaller than that.......
....Like the prototypes, these locomotives can negotiate very sharp curves down to a minimum radius of 9-3/4".
It confuses me a litte that they're heralding 9 3/4R curve when that's the N scale standard minimum. My (Atlas) GP9 can go around that.
Now they just need to drop prices. The 2-truck N in DC will be 200 bucks. Bachmanns 3-trucker with DCC and sound was 424. I forgot to write down the price of the straight DC. As a comparison the Bachmann 2-10-0 Russian Decapod in HO is going for 180 in DC, 335 in DCC w/sound (I'm looking at getting one for my collection). Why can't they make the 2-trucker Shay in HO? I think the 2-trucker looks better. The N is more affordable, but remembering how small my GP9er is and then thinking the Shay would be smaller than that.......
Geared locomotives, especially Shays and Class B or C Climaxes, have always been more expensive than ordinary steam locos, which are in turn generally more expensive than their dismal counterparts. You have an exposed drive train that has to be made as close to scale as possible while still providing great performance. Tiny gears, universals, line shafts, cylinders, and valve gear are needed for a proper working model. And, additional gear reduction is typically needed to bring the model's speed range more in line with the prototype's.
A model Shay has more problems with tight curves than other geared locomotives or diesels because of the off-center line shafts. The off-center shafts have to have telescoping sections to allow the shaft to shorten or lengthen itself when on the inside or outside of a curve. There is a practical limit to how much telescoping can be fitted, which in turn limits the curve radius of a Shay.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
MILW-RODRThis is what Atlas says about their very up and coming 2 truck N scale Shay:
Milw, that model has been out for several years now, there are several members here (Lee) that have them. As for pricing, no one pays list prices, at least I didn't for the HO Bachmann (they are selling non-sound for $79.95 at Micro-Mark)
As for a 2-truck in HO, yes I wish Bachmann would produce one (with NWSL gears ) It may be difficult to squeeze the board, decoder and a speaker in a single tender vs the larger tender on the 3-truck and still have a quality sound. (just guessing).
C&O Fanwedudler Everyone needs a shay.At least for the excursion train. Wolfgang Is this the one you mean Wolfgang ? http://westportterminal.blip.tv/?user=westportterminal#1409574 How did you get it to smoke and who makes the small passenger car ?
wedudler Everyone needs a shay.At least for the excursion train. Wolfgang
Everyone needs a shay.At least for the excursion train.
Is this the one you mean Wolfgang ?
http://westportterminal.blip.tv/?user=westportterminal#1409574
How did you get it to smoke and who makes the small passenger car ?
I've meant this train with shay. I've installed the Seuthe smoke unit ( 5 mm diameter ) into the stack ( 6 mm diameter ) . With blood and tears!!!
Those combine I bought used.
This is what Atlas says about their very up and coming 2 truck N scale Shay:
"Modeled after the Two-Truck Shay Locomotive that was built in the 1920s, this type of engine was used by many lumber, mining, quarry company railroads, other industrial railroads, a few common carrier short lines and major railroad systems for service in the logging and milling industries. This new model features a diecast frame and boiler, drive shaft detail, operating drive-shaft, directional lighting, all wheel drive and electrical pick-up, separately applied grab irons, prototypical painting and lettering, AccuMate(R) knuckle couplers, DCC-capable motor isolated from frame. Like the prototypes, these locomotives can negotiate very sharp curves down to a minimum radius of 9-3/4".
wedudler Everyone needs a shay.At least for the excursion train. And it's fun! Wolfgang
And it's fun!
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
Here is a pic of my little 25 ton shay. Cheers mike
Don7
NIce looking Shay, I like the cowcatcher, that's something you don't normally see on a geared loco. Makes her look sweet.
If anybody is looking for a small 2 truck brass shay, my Hillcrest shay didnt sell over on that auction site. Contact me offsite if interested. She is painted, lighted, engineer in the cab and 8 wheel electrical pickup. Due to job loss, she needs to go to a good home so we can keep ours. Neat insite and reading on lines that had shays that I would have never thought of. Cheers Mike
Canadian Pacific had two Shay locomotives working the Rossland/Trail area hauling ore in Southeast BC
http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_107/b_06610.gif
http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_136/f_05629.gif
http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_106/b_05085.gif
Take a look at the third picture, quite a number of ore cars being pulled.
fwright A typical mining or logging line using geared power could make a 20-30 mile run, drop off empties and pick up 30 loaded cars (actual number depending on grades and size of operation) and bring them back to the smelter or mill by the end of the day.
A typical mining or logging line using geared power could make a 20-30 mile run, drop off empties and pick up 30 loaded cars (actual number depending on grades and size of operation) and bring them back to the smelter or mill by the end of the day.
fwright The dog hole ports were used to load coastal Northern California lumber on ships. The most common arrangement was a rail line to bring the logs down to the mill. Then some more rail to transport the lumber from the mill to a cliff, where a high line (wire cable) was used to move the lumber from the cliff to the anchored ship.
The dog hole ports were used to load coastal Northern California lumber on ships. The most common arrangement was a rail line to bring the logs down to the mill. Then some more rail to transport the lumber from the mill to a cliff, where a high line (wire cable) was used to move the lumber from the cliff to the anchored ship.
Now you guys have to stop it. I have a limited space for a layout, should probably think about N scale, and you guys just keeping talking about 2 truck Shays and 3 truck Shays and I'm starting to really want a Shay. Do dumb little tinker toy N scale either, HO or O scale. A super detailed highly weathered O scale 3-truck Shay. Now that would be a piece-dey-rezis-tawnc
MILW-RODR That must have been some very long, slow work. I bet it looked really cool though. Of course, I'm picturing a Shay with like dozen ore cars behind it, something that from the sounds of things wouldn't happen. I also have to admit a slight weakness for the Mantua 2-6-6-2's. Not the tanked logging versions, but the tender version. Now if I could just get that and a 2-4-4-2 tendered mallet version I would be set. Is anyone else starting to imagine a harbor scene full of log strings coupled behind Heislers and Climaxs waiting to be loaded onto a car ferry? I think I'm starting to imagine too much again
That must have been some very long, slow work. I bet it looked really cool though. Of course, I'm picturing a Shay with like dozen ore cars behind it, something that from the sounds of things wouldn't happen. I also have to admit a slight weakness for the Mantua 2-6-6-2's. Not the tanked logging versions, but the tender version. Now if I could just get that and a 2-4-4-2 tendered mallet version I would be set. Is anyone else starting to imagine a harbor scene full of log strings coupled behind Heislers and Climaxs waiting to be loaded onto a car ferry? I think I'm starting to imagine too much again
On the contrary, switching is done at slow speeds where geared locomotives excel. 5-10 MPH for switching is the norm - and fits very well within a Shay's or Climax's speed range. Heislers could go a little faster because of their larger driver size.
The Gilpin Tram was a 2ft gauge mining line in Colorado that used Shays as primary power. Similarly, the Black Hills mining lines liked Heislers for making their runs to/from the mines.
The dog hole ports were used to load coastal Northern California lumber on ships. The most common arrangement was a rail line to bring the logs down to the mill. Then some more rail to transport the lumber from the mill to a cliff, where a high line (wire cable) was used to move the lumber from the cliff to the anchored ship. Some of the ports used docks for loading the ships, but the docks often were wiped out by winter storms. The ship then took the lumber to San Francisco or San Diego.
Even Class 1 lines before WW1 favored drag freight operations over their mountain grades - haul as much tonnage as possible at one time, even if it only moved at 5-10 MPH. Many of the early large steamers were built precisely for this drag service, and were incapable of operations above about 30-40 MPH.
yours in geared steam
richg1998 SilverSpike I have an old Roundhouse Shay kit I bought about 25 years ago and never built! I may sell it one day, I hear they are impossible to get to work right! Not true. It can be done. There is info in a Yahoo mdc roundhouse site but you need to be a member to see the info. I am not at liberty to post the info here. If you join, look at the messages and Photos sections concerning the Shay. You can download the info yourself if you like. Parts, motor from NWSL along with other parts. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mdcroundhouse/ Rich
SilverSpike I have an old Roundhouse Shay kit I bought about 25 years ago and never built! I may sell it one day, I hear they are impossible to get to work right!
I have an old Roundhouse Shay kit I bought about 25 years ago and never built! I may sell it one day, I hear they are impossible to get to work right!
Not true. It can be done. There is info in a Yahoo mdc roundhouse site but you need to be a member to see the info. I am not at liberty to post the info here. If you join, look at the messages and Photos sections concerning the Shay. You can download the info yourself if you like.
Parts, motor from NWSL along with other parts.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mdcroundhouse/
Rich
Hey Rich, thanks for the info, I'll have to check that out, and maybe I will just keep my Shay kit around a bit longer too!
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
Flashwave dinwittythey can only pull logs WRONG!!! UP used them to haul ore. NYC put a shroud around them (make them look more like a boxcar and not like a steam loco to scare the horse) and used them to switch the harbor districts.
dinwittythey can only pull logs
WRONG!!! UP used them to haul ore. NYC put a shroud around them (make them look more like a boxcar and not like a steam loco to scare the horse) and used them to switch the harbor districts.
I'm sure someone already mentioned it, but a Shay forces you to run slower (since my MDC RTR 2-truck one only gets about 17-18 scale mph, and seems like it might bust a boiler gasket at that!), which makes the time between your loggin camp and your return destination more prototypically long. I had mine re-worked by one of our local MRR club members with NWSL parts, and a decoder put in it at the same time (now, if only I'd thought about where Kevin coulda put a speaker...). I probably have $125 or so put into it (forgot what I paid on the 'Bay for it originally), and would love to locate another 2-truck Shay.
Enjoy, C&O!
Jim in Cape Girardeau
MILW-RODR Prototype question: where the geared locos used in anything besides logging? From what I've read and what not a reason they were used for logging is because steep grades and such, but something like a quarry or strip mine could have steep grades too. Can anyone else see a...we'll say 3 truck Shay pulling a few gondolas of crushed stone up a...say 4% grade out of a quarry? Or how about a 40' flat with a couple of 10 ton blocks of...granite. Or limeston. Or shale, well maybe not a big block of it but, you know, it's another type of rock. Or maybe a Heisler hauling a flat car up the ramp with pyramid cap on it...., I pulled the lever back to fast on the time machine. Heislers in ancient egypt? I must have landed on a bug or something that last trip I took to see the Mayians.
Prototype question: where the geared locos used in anything besides logging? From what I've read and what not a reason they were used for logging is because steep grades and such, but something like a quarry or strip mine could have steep grades too. Can anyone else see a...we'll say 3 truck Shay pulling a few gondolas of crushed stone up a...say 4% grade out of a quarry? Or how about a 40' flat with a couple of 10 ton blocks of...granite. Or limeston. Or shale, well maybe not a big block of it but, you know, it's another type of rock. Or maybe a Heisler hauling a flat car up the ramp with pyramid cap on it...., I pulled the lever back to fast on the time machine. Heislers in ancient egypt? I must have landed on a bug or something that last trip I took to see the Mayians.
-Morgan
hi ive 6 of them heislers climaxs shays and they all run great as with the bachmann's get the gears from nswl and you should no problem with them.
I'll steal his thunder He has this unit on the way.
http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll17/hamltnblue/?action=view¤t=M4H00466_converted.flv
C & O Steam And the answer is...........................................I am not running it yet, but hope to be by the end of next week. Thanks guys for all the help.
And the answer is...........................................I am not running it yet, but hope to be by the end of next week.
Thanks guys for all the help.
Modeling question: how many cars can your geared locomotive (any of the 3) pull up your max grade? What is your max grade?