NeutrinoThe reduction of members really won't hurt the quality of content at MTW because less than 1% of members contribute to any measurable degree. I don't think it was ever about quantity as Rich stated previously, but quality.
I believe that to be more than likely very true.
NeutrinoRich was not naive enough to drive out his core contributors with a fee, so in effect he is not charging those who have contributed comments and participated over the years.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
spidge Packers#1 my account there got blocked out when they switched to you ahve to be sugested, and lrod knows I ain't paying $20 a year for any forum, lol. As creative as the folks there are I cannot substantiate a $20 offering either. Shoot I cannot substantiate a subscription to this magazine at this point either.
Packers#1 my account there got blocked out when they switched to you ahve to be sugested, and lrod knows I ain't paying $20 a year for any forum, lol.
my account there got blocked out when they switched to you ahve to be sugested, and lrod knows I ain't paying $20 a year for any forum, lol.
As creative as the folks there are I cannot substantiate a $20 offering either. Shoot I cannot substantiate a subscription to this magazine at this point either.
I realize I'm jumping in kind of late -
SO, the big question would be WHAT IF Kalmbach required a subscription to MR (or any of their other magazines) to access this forum? From the response to my question a few weeks ago about who has a subscription - not "I pick up a copy at the store" but a paid subscription where the magazine is delivered to your door in the mail- there seems to be a number of, for lack of a better phrase, "freeloaders" here. People who are forum members (some quite heavy users) who don't bother to subscribe to MR and help support the fine company that provides this forum.
Again, what would you say if access was restricted to paid subscription holders? I would be for it just to cut down on the repetitive, basic questions that could be answered by someone with a subscription looking a recent issue of MR.
Silver PilotAgain, what would you say if access was restricted to paid subscription holders? I would be for it just to cut down on the repetitive, basic questions that could be answered by someone with a subscription looking a recent issue of MR.
And again. Why are we having issues with repetitive postings of the same questions? It's been done before--why bother doing it again--all landscapes look the same. why bother painting another one--
Look, if the question is so annoying to you then you don't need to read it again either. Most sites have had at one time or another something called FAQ's. MR and mtw don't seem to have that type of thing going on and why not? Sometimes it might just be that certain ways of doing things change or such.
Archive the forum and just call it a library--
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I just treat it like a magazine subscription, I don't have any and refuse to dig into my almost non-existant hobby money for one. If I had the extra I would pay it and start contributing as the results from the talent there is exceptional.
Any time you put work in any forum and ask for feedback there will always be a few who have difficulty expressing themselves through the forum without comming accross harsh. One of the worst things in my opinion is to praise crappy work so the poster goes on thinking he is doing well. Maybe the language is a bit harsh here and there but in the end one should improve the quality of his work as one takes the criticizm and responds with changing and improving personal technique.
I know this post is moving way away from the dirrection the thread is going but thought we needed to be re-grounded before someone gets upset.
John
Neutrino selector Neutrino Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up? And tell us your address while you are at it? {read - Wouldn't posting his work identify him when he wishes to remain anonymous?} Selector - How could a photo of his work identify him if he only has one post to his name? A claim like that should at least offer some credible back-up. There are most likely other reasons he wants to remain anonymous. Jerry
selector Neutrino Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up? And tell us your address while you are at it? {read - Wouldn't posting his work identify him when he wishes to remain anonymous?}
Neutrino Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up?
Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up?
And tell us your address while you are at it? {read - Wouldn't posting his work identify him when he wishes to remain anonymous?}
Selector - How could a photo of his work identify him if he only has one post to his name?
A claim like that should at least offer some credible back-up. There are most likely other reasons he wants to remain anonymous.
Jerry
It would identify him to people on MTW who may be reading here?
To move back towards the primary topic. I've been a member of MTW for a few years now. I will readily admit to being one of those members Rich described that doesn't, and hasn't, posted often. I posted a few things in the beginning and received some good feedback and what I posted was well received. I haven't posted much becuase of being in a different phase of modeling with getting a layout designed and construction started.
Would a $20 annual subscription fee be worth it? The question or 'worth' or 'value' is a personal decision. What may have value to one person will have a different value to the next person. But, $20 is about the price (or less than) of a nice, new RTR car by Atlas, InterMountain, Athearn etc. The other way to look at it is, "What is the price of the knowledge available on MTW?" I'm reminded of much debated statements - This is not a cheap hobby anymore and You get what you pay for.
spidge One of the worst things in my opinion is to praise crappy work so the poster goes on thinking he is doing well. Maybe the language is a bit harsh here and there but in the end one should improve the quality of his work as one takes the criticizm and responds with changing and improving personal technique.
Agreed, but I don't think the real issue is praising poor work. You are correct that is just filling someone with false direction and is of no help. The issue, as far as I am saying, is the way it is delivered. Taking criticizm of the work is one thing, it's when the criticizm goes beyond the work that is another issue.
I have posted a few items here and recieved some feedback on them. Coming to mind is a scratch build. My first, small, but my first. On that I did recieve mixed feedback. Some pointing out what I did correct and some what I needed to improve or did incorrect. The good stuff pointed out what I did do that I may not have realized and told me to keep in that direction there and the corrections told me what I could do to improve. I posted a railcar that I had no intention of passing as good, it was my first attempt at weathering a long time before and was mearly an example of "we all start off poorly" I recieved no good comments but some comments both on the forum and in PM's ranging from how to better the picture to, next time contact me and we'll work through this. No one said "holy(insert expletive) that's horrid." Of course I knew this and they knew I did, but my point is they made it known it wasn't good, i.e. crappy, without reverting to slamming me. I've taken the information offered and am applying it to another structure, and in my opinion is much, much better than anything I've done before. Not great mind you, but better. I've posted "so far" photos and recieved some feedback as to how to make improvements. All very civily(sp?). Why? Because though I'm no spring chicken, like many, some aspects of this hobby are new to me and I'm not very good at it and they know it. I know it. That's why I ask for help. to get better not to be told I s***. You don't have to coddle me, but you don't have to beat me into the ground to get your point across.
Maybe we are taking things out of context and lumping both forums into one group. MR is more like a get together group type forum and maybe MTW is more like a workshop and the expectations should not be the same. With the latest info I've seen by MTW people it sounds more and more like it's direction is going more towards a group of exceptional modelers (and they are) and if you want to learn from them in a workshop type environment with unlimited exposure, it will cost you $20 year. And that is great. Like an online college class. For the information available I still maintain it is cheap. Not saying it fits into everybodies budget, but cheap. A new Rolls Royce for $60.000 is cheap but not many could afford it.
As far as comparing the magazine subscribers only aspect of this forum, I do believe that MR uses this forum to promote magazine sales also. Whether it be subscription or off the shelf. If a person is allowed to participate in this forum, then maybe they would consider buying the mag. Many I'm sure do many don't. Either way they probably pick up some readers/buyers/subscribers by making this public. With the advertisements and sales the forum is profitable or at least break even. If it were a substatial loss over time I doubt if they would keep it. IMHO.
Silver PilotWould a $20 annual subscription fee be worth it? The question or 'worth' or 'value' is a personal decision. What may have value to one person will have a different value to the next person.
davidmbedard However, that "club" [MTW] is tainted with horrible attitudes and egos that are off-putting and, frankly, is responsible for the lack of current participation in their forums. When I was over there, it seemed that if you were not a 'God' when it came to weathering, you need not post. That is why they have a low contribution factor from new members.
However, that "club" [MTW] is tainted with horrible attitudes and egos that are off-putting and, frankly, is responsible for the lack of current participation in their forums. When I was over there, it seemed that if you were not a 'God' when it came to weathering, you need not post. That is why they have a low contribution factor from new members.
dmb:
Oh, heavens, yes. And to pay twenty bucks for the privilege? While the Sir Oracles aren't charged? The concept is just hilarious.
I'm going to start a club. My friends will get pies. New members will have to pay $5 for a paper target to wear. :D
A true master is humble and generous, because the more he learns, the more he knows he has left to learn. Arrogance is the mark of immaturity.
One of the most admirable traits exhibited on the pages of MR, through the years, has been a very friendly and inclusive attitude.
davidmbedardWe absolutely should have a sub forum dedicated to Painting and Weathering. Not to compete, but to allow us a place to share our ideas of weathering techniques...for free. We could then use this as a resource for our members when they are looking at getting into the dirty end of the hobby.
I agree. Problem of course is that if you have too few forums, everything gets thrown in one (or a few) big heaps, and it is hard to find information. If you have too many forums, things get very fragmented, new users has very little change of figuring out where to go, and a significant amount of posts ends up in the "wrong forum" anyways.
The key would be to have a reasonable number, divided up in some reasonable way, so people can figure out where to go with what.
We currently have five model railroader forums:
- General - Layouts and layout building - Electronics and DCC - Prototype information for the modeller - "Where are the MR anniversary boxcars?"
The last one is pretty meaningless, in my opinion. It sees hardly any traffic.
But what would be a sensible way of organizing and grouping posts?
Just out of sheer curiousity - say you got ten MR related forums - what forums do you think there should be ?
I'm sure someone has better ideas, but just one suggestion just to get the ball rolling : - "I'm new here" (FAQs, a place to ask basic questions, etc) - Track planning and layout design - Layout building (benchwork and carpentry, modular standards) - Track laying and basic wiring - Engines and rolling stock - Controls (DCC, electronics, automation,signals) - Scenery and Buildings - Prototype information and research - Operations (making your trains move like the real thing) - "The crew lounge" - hanging out with friends, chat, show pictures, announcements
Grin,Stein
steinjr Just out of sheer curiousity - say you got ten MR related forums - what forums do you think there should be ? I'm sure someone has better ideas, but just one suggestion just to get the ball rolling : - "I'm new here" (FAQs, a place to ask basic questions, etc) - Track planning and layout design - Layout building (benchwork and carpentry, modular standards) - Track laying and basic wiring - Engines and rolling stock - Controls (DCC, electronics, automation,signals) - Scenery and Buildings - Prototype information and research - Operations (making your trains move like the real thing) - "The crew lounge" - hanging out with friends, chat, show pictures, announcements
That type of forum design might be a little more easier to do searches as well because it would be more targeted to specific ends---
steinjrI'm sure someone has better ideas, but just one suggestion just to get the ball rolling : - "I'm new here" (FAQs, a place to ask basic questions, etc) - Track planning and layout design - Layout building (benchwork and carpentry, modular standards) - Track laying and basic wiring - Engines and rolling stock - Controls (DCC, electronics, automation,signals) - Scenery and Buildings - Prototype information and research - Operations (making your trains move like the real thing) - "The crew lounge" - hanging out with friends, chat, show pictures, announcements
For what it's worth, I like. I really like. Especially the "I'm new here" That way the same questions can be asked without jumbling up the rest of the threads with repatition. Let's face it the same question can be asked countless ways but to new people, it's always a new question and that's what makes the hobby grow. New people.
Also "The Crew Lounge" It is no secret the bulk of my posts are off topic and in the diner. This forum offers, or should I say allows, it's members a "breakroom" were members can discuss railroad items as well as personal chit chat building a bond or friendship among folks with a common interest. Just like at a RR club meeting or a LHS. Many times the guy behind the counter at my LHS asks how things are going and I don't shut him down and say, "sorry, I'm here for the train stuff" ADD: But I do realize in a forum environment it just jumbles things up to include that type of visiting in the posts of others.
Excellant choices all of them. Very clear as to the expected content but not too specific as to make a list a mile long. Maybe........
Sounds like a plan. It is great fun to redesign a free website that I personally have no control over!
I agree that too many subfora lead to confusion and deadspaces.
My idea would be to group all discussions under the following categories:
1) Non-RR chat and talk ("crew lounge" or "Railroad YMCA"), like the weather reports that some guys enjoy, along with the virtual cups of coffee and pie. Complaints about life. Speculation on whether the hobby is dying. Bragging about your kids or grandkids. A great place for the usual "who's going to the xyz show next weekend?" Since there seems to be a free-ranging, active "teen" section, this would be a good place for it.
2) Locos and rolling stock. Models and actual stuff is covered here. Photos of your latest "build", or photos of your latest "buy". This is the working-model subforum. Talk about the latest hybrid 4-8-8-4T, and how the cab windowsills are finally the right shape. Talk about the rivets on any specific prototype, or how you paint the thing (including weathering). Talk about how to get the things to stay on the track. Talk about weights, lights, trucks and wheels. Talk about what a particular car or loco might be used for, and when. Questions about installing decoders and speakers might be discussed here (and/or in the proposed "overall layout" section proposed below).
3) Structures. Kits, scratch built, and "RTR" buildings. Industries, and complexes of buildings. Jigs, fixtures, wood chopping. Painting miniature people. Selecting, buying, and/or building models of trucks and cars for the layout. This is mostly static modeling, although there are animation freaks among us, so structures with moving parts could be discussed here.
4) Building the overall layout; track plans, scenery, roadbeds, trackwork, benchwork, signaling, and other things that aren't specifically models of locos, cars, or structures. DCC would naturally be discussed here.
5) Operations, for the clerks and train conductors among us. Procedures. Demerits. Waybills. Paperwork. Accounting (you haven't joined the beancounter's SIG?). Ways of influencing the ICC, and ways of avoiding the appearance of antitrust law violations. Setting up dummy corporations to avoid taxation. Graft and political corruption. Sorry, I am getting carried away.
6) FAQ's. Basic questions like "which DCC system to use?" and "Which turnouts to use?" FAQ's don't have any one answer, and people will be free to add info to these threads as things develop (or as people learn more). Many of these topics could be "pinned" so they don't slip into oblivion on page >10, as time goes by.
Just a suggestion. 6 basic groups of discussion, somewhat loosely segregated.
NUTS! to paying for the privilege.
(Truck delivering walnuts to the Walnut Growers Association processing plant in Walnut Creek, CA -- shipped 7000 tons of walnuts in 1958.)
Mark
steinjr... I'm sure someone has better ideas, but just one suggestion just to get the ball rolling : - "I'm new here" (FAQs, a place to ask basic questions, etc) - Track planning and layout design - Layout building (benchwork and carpentry, modular standards) - Track laying and basic wiring - Engines and rolling stock - Controls (DCC, electronics, automation,signals) - Scenery and Buildings - Prototype information and research - Operations (making your trains move like the real thing) - "The crew lounge" - hanging out with friends, chat, show pictures, announcements Grin,Stein
Not counting the anniversary boxcars (you could grow old and die before you see a post there) we currently have 4 forums 3 of which work reasonably well for specialized topics. While the General forum has by far the most activity.
Dividing the Layouts and layout building into Track planning and layout design, Layout building (benchwork and carpentry, modular standards), and Track laying and basic wiring doesn't seem very useful given it's current level of activity and the interconnectedness of these topics.
The I'm new sounds good but in practice leads to the problem of where do I post my question about turnouts? I think the real problem here is that people aren't checking out the articles drop down menu on the menu bar up above which includes an ABC's of Model Railroading section as well as other useful sections.
Adding an operations forum could be a good idea and might spur some increase interest in the topic. I would also have a Scratchbuilding, etc. forum and a Scenery, etc. forum for the same reason.
I would retain the General category because you'll have miscellaneous posts in all your forums otherwise.
I think the shorter list below will also minimize the cross posting which we get even with the 4 we have now.
- General - Layout building (planning/design, benchwork, trackwork, and DC wiring) - Scratchbuilding, kitbashing, craftsman kits - Controls (DCC, electronics, signaling, etc) - Scenery, painting, weathering, and finishing - Prototype information - Operations
Any of the new ones that don't generate sufficient traffic should be rolled into General after a year.
Enjoy
Paul
Here's my suggestion...
1: Stuff I like.
2: Stuff I don't like but really need to know (wiring for signals, for instance)
3: Stuff that's useless to me.
4: All the other stuff.
There... That simplifies it!
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Autobus Primedavidmbedard However, that "club" [MTW] is tainted with horrible attitudes and egos that are off-putting and, frankly, is responsible for the lack of current participation in their forums. When I was over there, it seemed that if you were not a 'God' when it came to weathering, you need not post. That is why they have a low contribution factor from new members. dmb: Oh, heavens, yes. And to pay twenty bucks for the privilege? While the Sir Oracles aren't charged? The concept is just hilarious. I'm going to start a club. My friends will get pies. New members will have to pay $5 for a paper target to wear. :D A true master is humble and generous, because the more he learns, the more he knows he has left to learn. Arrogance is the mark of immaturity. One of the most admirable traits exhibited on the pages of MR, through the years, has been a very friendly and inclusive attitude.
If you wrote an article for MR, wouldn't you expect to get paid?
How about if MR decided to take the "Best of The Trains.com Forum" and published it? Would you expect to be paid if your comments and pictures were used and the publisher claimed that it was a public forum and they were free to use any content as it see fit? (Maybe they can do this, has anyone checked?)
Most magazines pay contributors. On-line Magazines pay contributors for articles by providing products to test and build, I know this first hand. I would bet a five year subscription to MTW that if you joined and contributed on a regular basis, that you would not have to pay after your first year. We're looking for CONTENT, not comments or just readers. Our goal is to further the art of weathering, not spend futile hours looking for that fictional $36,000 Porsche mentioned earlier.
MTW wouldn't be in it's unique position without the WORK of these few core members and their contributions are justifiably rewarded.
If someone donated everything for a MRR club and offered free memberships. Lets say 2000 people join for free, cool, so lets get started building. Out of those 2000 members, fifty show up on the first day of construction.
After a year the first trains are running and the 15 members that actually stuck around to do the work and get the layout going notice a lot more activity. Cool! More members participating. Turns out these 1,985 members just want to run trains (and run them the way they want to because, "Hey I'm in the club too.") and don't really want to come back for the next work session, but they will sure be willing to run their trains.
Now the patron of the Club has run into Mr. Madoff and things aren't as rosy as they once were, or the expense of running trains has taken a toll on the equipment and it needs to be replaced. The core group has no problem contributing what they can because they've invested and committed themselves to this endeavor. A call goes out to the members who just hang out to help and you get an attitude...
I hope this makes a point because the idea of supporting your contributors is vital to any ongoing enterprise. Those that sit back and expect something for nothing deserve what they get.
spidgeOne of the worst things in my opinion is to praise crappy work so the poster goes on thinking he is doing well. Maybe the language is a bit harsh here and there but in the end one should improve the quality of his work as one takes the criticizm and responds with changing and improving personal technique.
Welcome to the Model Railroader Forums where praising crappy work happens on a daily basis and is encouraged, not discouraged and those who criticize are reprimanded.
wm3798 Here's my suggestion... 1: Stuff I like. 2: Stuff I don't like but really need to know (wiring for signals, for instance) 3: Stuff that's useless to me. 4: All the other stuff. There... That simplifies it! Lee
You forgot worthless stuff that generates 7 pages of wasted bandwidth.
Wow, I can say it backwards, Wow. This thread is sure entertaining. Stuff happens and sometimes there is nothing you can do about it. This is the Internet evolving. Change is inevitable, struggle is an option.
I am on the way to the store to get some Cheese to go with My Whine. No problem.
There are many mrr forums around.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Driline Welcome to the Model Railroader Forums where praising crappy work happens on a daily basis and is encouraged, not discouraged and those who criticize are reprimanded.
No, not those who criticize, but rather those who make personal attacks or don't follow the rules of a polite model railroader society (which excludes topics like politics, religion, remote-control airplanes, baseball statistics, etc.)
IRONROOSTERI think the shorter list below will also minimize the cross posting which we get even with the 4 we have now. - General - Layout building (planning/design, benchwork, trackwork, and DC wiring) - Scratchbuilding, kitbashing, craftsman kits - Controls (DCC, electronics, signaling, etc) - Scenery, painting, weathering, and finishing - Prototype information - Operations
While I appreciate the beautiful sarcasm of Lee's suggestions ("stuff I am interested in"/"stuff that is useless to me"), and the rather more pedestrian irony of some people adding to a long off-topic thread to complain about long off-topic threads, I think this would have been the most workable proposal, since it has an easy transition path from the current system to a new (and better) system:
1) Remove the useless anniversary boxcars forum from the list 2) Keep the other three forums as is 3) Add three new forums: - Scratchbuilding, kitbashing, craftsman kits - Scenery, painting, weathering, and finishing - Operations
Grin, Stein
Neutrino If you wrote an article for MR, wouldn't you expect to get paid?
Yes, or due compensation. The magazine is a business that charges it's readers. Anyone who contributes should be compensated unless previously told different. Then it is up to the contributor what they choose to do.
Neutrino How about if MR decided to take the "Best of The Trains.com Forum" and published it? Would you expect to be paid if your comments and pictures were used and the publisher claimed that it was a public forum and they were free to use any content as it see fit? (Maybe they can do this, has anyone checked?)
No I would not. No more than if I spoke at a public meeting and was quoted later by some form of media. It is a free forum that is accessed by anyone who chooses to click on forums. If MRR decided to compile a mixture of posts, well I guess they would have every right. I wouldn't buy it because I could access it for free. Yes I take no offense at being a freeloader. They offer, I like, I take. If they chose to make it a subscriber only forum, as a subscriber I would continue. If they charged an additional fee, I'm afraid I would say goodbye to my friends exchange e-mails and look for another place to spend my time.
I believe it was a $60,000 Rolls Royce. But seriously. I see your point, however, IF MTW is going the way of an instructional tool and away from a traditional forum as you allude, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with what is happening and agree wholeheartedly with the analogies made in respect to compensation. And I expect the "core group" would be possibley compensated, other than free membership, with some sort of end of the year profit sharing based on their participation. What is not clear to me is, is that the new path it is taking? Maybe to you it is not a new path, but to the average member out there it seems to be. I myself am under the impression it is a regular forum on the subject of weathering where people discuss techniques and showcase their work while assisting others. Much like this one whether you agree with the quality of advice or not. If MTW is becoming a business or was always intended to be a business then the comparison of these two forums is in vain because they are then apples and oranges.
The main source of contention and the reason for the distaste, as many have said, is not the quality of work or the information available, but the attitudes of some members. If I liked Bull Riding I watch Bull Riding. If I liked riding bulls I'd jump on one. Since I don't, I stay out of the bull riding ring. I want constructive criticism on my modeling, not your opinion on me or snide remarks. These go against as Mark said, the social aspect of Model Railroading. I was not aware I was in a competitive hobby. Pitting the novice against the pro from the beginning.
Maybe it's the word criticize that is the hang up.
Neutrino Autobus Prime davidmbedard However, that "club" [MTW] is tainted with horrible attitudes and egos that are off-putting and, frankly, is responsible for the lack of current participation in their forums. When I was over there, it seemed that if you were not a 'God' when it came to weathering, you need not post. That is why they have a low contribution factor from new members. dmb: Oh, heavens, yes. And to pay twenty bucks for the privilege? While the Sir Oracles aren't charged? The concept is just hilarious. I'm going to start a club. My friends will get pies. New members will have to pay $5 for a paper target to wear. :D A true master is humble and generous, because the more he learns, the more he knows he has left to learn. Arrogance is the mark of immaturity. One of the most admirable traits exhibited on the pages of MR, through the years, has been a very friendly and inclusive attitude. If you wrote an article for MR, wouldn't you expect to get paid? How about if MR decided to take the "Best of The Trains.com Forum" and published it? Would you expect to be paid if your comments and pictures were used and the publisher claimed that it was a public forum and they were free to use any content as it see fit? (Maybe they can do this, has anyone checked?) Most magazines pay contributors. On-line Magazines pay contributors for articles by providing products to test and build, I know this first hand. I would bet a five year subscription to MTW that if you joined and contributed on a regular basis, that you would not have to pay after your first year. We're looking for CONTENT, not comments or just readers. Our goal is to further the art of weathering, not spend futile hours looking for that fictional $36,000 Porsche mentioned earlier. MTW wouldn't be in it's unique position without the WORK of these few core members and their contributions are justifiably rewarded. If someone donated everything for a MRR club and offered free memberships. Lets say 2000 people join for free, cool, so lets get started building. Out of those 2000 members, fifty show up on the first day of construction. After a year the first trains are running and the 15 members that actually stuck around to do the work and get the layout going notice a lot more activity. Cool! More members participating. Turns out these 1,985 members just want to run trains (and run them the way they want to because, "Hey I'm in the club too.") and don't really want to come back for the next work session, but they will sure be willing to run their trains. Now the patron of the Club has run into Mr. Madoff and things aren't as rosy as they once were, or the expense of running trains has taken a toll on the equipment and it needs to be replaced. The core group has no problem contributing what they can because they've invested and committed themselves to this endeavor. A call goes out to the members who just hang out to help and you get an attitude... I hope this makes a point because the idea of supporting your contributors is vital to any ongoing enterprise. Those that sit back and expect something for nothing deserve what they get.
Autobus Prime davidmbedard However, that "club" [MTW] is tainted with horrible attitudes and egos that are off-putting and, frankly, is responsible for the lack of current participation in their forums. When I was over there, it seemed that if you were not a 'God' when it came to weathering, you need not post. That is why they have a low contribution factor from new members. dmb: Oh, heavens, yes. And to pay twenty bucks for the privilege? While the Sir Oracles aren't charged? The concept is just hilarious. I'm going to start a club. My friends will get pies. New members will have to pay $5 for a paper target to wear. :D A true master is humble and generous, because the more he learns, the more he knows he has left to learn. Arrogance is the mark of immaturity. One of the most admirable traits exhibited on the pages of MR, through the years, has been a very friendly and inclusive attitude.
N:
You're a tough particle to trap, Neutrino, and you completely missed my argument.
What you describe is how every club, committee, church, and group of any kind has always worked. You have your core people and your casual people. You charge everybody dues. A lot of the casual people want to do more but don't get the chance, and that's fine, because their dues are money in the bank for the core group to use. That has to be expected.
The success of any group depends on the ability of these core people to relate to casuals and outsiders and bring 'em in. You can't be an elitist and expect the group to grow. It will just turn into a mutual admiration society.
This isn't "growth" or "change". This is as old as the hills. It's also the reason I really don't care about this silly thing, except to make a few points. MTW has just elected to cancel any relevance they might have had.
See, the only thing this Internet has got is democracy. The costs are low, and a lot of it's run by volunteers. A lot of the physical world is, too. Nobody gets paid to read books to their own kids, or throw a party with the neighbors, or sit in a neighborhood watch meeting, or vote. The strength of the Net is that it extended the reach of this sort of action. Take that away, and all you've got is a sort of print that you can't read in the comfy chair.
Are people going to pay $20 for the privilege of being bullied around by a bunch of self-styled artistes? Well, there's one born every minute. Personally, I think that somebody else will take their place.
Now, if you want a comparison, take John Nehrich's site. I have subscribed there before (using his limited-time option), and I think that was well worth it. But look at how few people take advantage of this resource...and Nehrich is an excellent teacher, out to explain a subject and help people understand it, not to stroke his ego.
davidmbedardHowever, that "club" is tainted with horrible attitudes and egos that are off-putting and, frankly, is responsible for the lack of current participation in their forums. When I was over there, it seemed that if you were not a 'God' when it came to weathering, you need not post. That is why they have a low contribution factor from new members.
True. It's not so much a place to learn weathering skills as it is a place to show off your work and satisfy your ego.
They can charge what they want, of course, to allow people to continue doing that.
Funny, I was just looking at Nehrich's RPI site and wondering if I should throw them 8 bucks for a months worth of reading. I have some of his books, have met him, and seen the railroad. He is an impressive guy, with a vast knowledge of lots of things (not just a narrow focus on one railroad in a specific location during a specific season), and the 8 bucks just might be worth it. I even contributed a short piece on Pullmans to the RPI site before they went private.
As for simulating rusty metal, I think the military and automobile/truck modelers have long since mastered it (without charging for the photos and advice), so I don't need to spend $20 to ooh and ahh at rusty railroad cars. Let them marginalize themselves into a mutual admiration society, and then wonder why no one is following their philosophy. Heck, they can charge $36,000 for lessons on building Porsches. I model WWII anyway, when things on the railroad weren't quite so rusty, and coal dust covered every horizontal surface.
As for this here MR site, I think there should be some minor tweaking to prevent threads from being lost as they slip into the back pages. Breaking the current division of posts into a few more sub-categories could accomplish that goal.
TMarsh edited for length Maybe it's the word criticize that is the hang up.
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Criticize, according to the dictionary, would be the proper term. People assume it means something only negative but it also means to discuss the merits and faults of something
TMarsh Agreed, but I don't think the real issue is praising poor work. You are correct that is just filling someone with false direction and is of no help. The issue, as far as I am saying, is the way it is delivered. Taking criticizm of the work is one thing, it's when the criticizm goes beyond the work that is another issue. edited for length
I'll disagree with you - there is a real issue with praising poor work. There are numerous examples of people praising poor on this and of those that have offered criticism being chastized for it and put down for it even though there was no personal attack involved.
spidge edit Any time you put work in any forum and ask for feedback there will always be a few who have difficulty expressing themselves through the forum without comming accross harsh. One of the worst things in my opinion is to praise crappy work so the poster goes on thinking he is doing well. Maybe the language is a bit harsh here and there but in the end one should improve the quality of his work as one takes the criticizm and responds with changing and improving personal technique.
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I agree with that one of the worst things you can do is praise crappy work so that the poster goes on thinking he is doing well. Sometimes the harsh language is needed to be able to bring home the point. What about the situation where a someone posts something that is really crappy, either the model itself or the photo, you provide suggestions for improvement and what's wrong yet the poster continues to along their merry way posting crappy work and getting false praise? How do you handle that situation?
While much has been said about how 'tough' the guys at MTW are, if you can handle the remarks you will learn something new and improve your skills along the way. Actually I sort of pity the person how can accept criticism of their work nor shows the desire to improve their skill set.
markpierce Driline Welcome to the Model Railroader Forums where praising crappy work happens on a daily basis and is encouraged, not discouraged and those who criticize are reprimanded. No, not those who criticize, but rather those who make personal attacks or don't follow the rules of a polite model railroader society (which excludes topics like politics, religion, remote-control airplanes, baseball statistics, etc.) Mark
Sorry, but your wrong Mark. Those who criticize without personal attacks still get reprimanded. Would like some examples?
This forum could use a good dose of honesty when it comes to people posting pictures of their work and expecting praise to be heaped upon them no matter how good or how bad it really is or getting offended when someone says they don't like what they did.
Silver Pilot Sorry, but your wrong Mark. Those who criticize without personal attacks still get reprimanded. Would like some examples?
No thank you... Perhaps I'm overly relying on my own experience even though I am usually blunt and occasionally resort to hyperbole when being critical. Yes, people have expressed contrary opinions (see above), and in rare instances been "slimed" (personally attacked), but I didn't consider these responses to be reprimands.
8500HPGASTURBINE WHO REALLY CARES ABOUT THE WEATHERING FORUM CHARGING $$$
WHO REALLY CARES ABOUT THE WEATHERING FORUM CHARGING $$$
Well, apparently you and I don't (I hadn't known of its existence before), but obviously some people do.
M T W true there are some very good weatherers there however not all members are very good but in time if they follow the work of the very good weathers they will improve i have improved my weathering by studying the photos and trying the sugestions
one of the first photos i posted did not show on the web site i was very disapointed until someone from M T W told me how to show photos on the net but better still they actually put the photos on there and then explained where i went wrong... no smart *** comments only helpfullness then other members said welcome and commented on my work.... again no smart *** comments unfortunatly in the M R forums this would not be so a lot of the members of this site act like immature children and if i had made a mistake showing a photo i would have got lots of replys containing smart *** comments..... believe me it has happened.... people look at M R forums then step up to sites like M T W.....