Robt. LivingstonI think the Model Railroader site has heavy enough traffic to support several sub-forums. Weathering would be one of them.
Good Idea except for one obvious flaw. Both moderators here are quick to lock or shut down threads when they feel they've "run their course" or for friendly bantor they deem inappropriate. Too bad. This could have been a great forum but for them.
Midnight Railroader Robt. LivingstonThe lack of topic-specific sub-forums leads not only to repetition, but impatience on the part of experienced writers, who get tired of answering the same questions or requests for advice over and over. Precisely.
Robt. LivingstonThe lack of topic-specific sub-forums leads not only to repetition, but impatience on the part of experienced writers, who get tired of answering the same questions or requests for advice over and over.
Precisely.
And since it has all been done before, archive the lot and turn the forum into a vast research library. No need to have a forum then.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I believe it is about niche as you define it. MTW does provide an exchange medium for those who pursue weathering to an art form in my opinion. The level of a lot of their body of work is not for everyone for whatever reason.
I have benifitted from MTW through learning new techniques and then applied the ones that fit my wants. I feel no frustration or guilt because gouache is still an unmastered skill. But $20 is an issue since I am not working and replacement jobs are as scare as 1:1 operable PAs in warbonnet.
It's not a hoax
From the forums there:
Hello everyone, There are some big changes coming to modeltrainsweathered.com If you just joined recently, you probably just made it in before the change over, which is that modeltrainsweathered.com is now going to be a Subscription Only Site. There is a lot of work and time, lots of time, that goes into maintaining this site, to make it look and feel the way it does. I have heard the request for seeing how something is actually done weathering wise, because it's hard to understand some of the techniques by just a photo, so this Fall I am wanting to bring Video to the front page with Tutorials,etc. All of this takes time and I'm excited about getting it going. I know times are tough for many right now, so as far as a Subscription Fee, I wanted to keep the price fair. $20.00 a YEAR is a little over 5 cents a day. That is Fair, but.......there are some that don't think so. So far, the response has been great! and mostly the ones that don't like it, have been ZERO posters over the last 6 Years. They have never contributed anything in 6 Years. But then on the flipside, maybe your just someone that has never posted anything in 6 years, but you have told others about the site, which is great promotion for mtw, so I thank you there. And another thing, is that there are many of you that are emailing me saying that $20 is too low because this place is a GOLDMINE of information, and it has helped them over the years. So go figure, $20 a Year is a Fair Deal. Like I have said in my mass email to most of you, and I'm still sending the emails out if you have not received it yet. modeltrainsweathered.com is "The World's Largest Network of Model Railroad" Weathering Enthusiast "Since 2004" Over the years your support and contributions have made this Forum a joy to be a part of. It has been a great place to learn, a place to make contacts, and even make some friends. The skills and know how that have gathered in this community have reached others all over the world, and have made all of us better people, and better modelers. Thank you for that. For those of you that want to know exactly what you have been a part of over the years, I have summarized below what it is to be a member and a part of this Forum. As a member, you have access... Access to the World's Largest Network of Model Railroad Weathering Enthusiast. Access to The Largest Variety of Weathering Tips, Techniques and Tricks, all in one Central Online Community. Access to Invaluable Networking Contacts that put Money in your Pocket, by doing Custom Work for Others, Selling Yourself and creating Comission Work. You can even Advertise your Ebay Auctions at no Charge on our Exclusive Ebay Approved Page. (Specific Rules Apply) "Many Forums Do Not Allow This" and... You can Showcase your Work, Improve your Skills through Detailed Critique, and build Recognition among some of the Hobbies Most Talented and Known Modelers. The Knowledge you have Access to Stretches Worldwide, and has been an ongoing Contribution by our Members for the Last 6 Years. The Subscription Rate is quite low and something that I believe to be fair. The rate is $20.00 per year which basically comes out to a little over 5 cents a day. To continue having Access to the Forum, let's say a year from now if you just join and were a part of the free entry, you don't have to do anything until a year from the date you joined. For Details on the Subscription, go to the Main MTW Home Page and Click on "FORUM REGISTRATION" This page has a Pay Pal Subscription Link near the bottom. Once again, I have a list of all the Members that have Joined, by date. So, if you received this as an email, it's because you Joined before August 1, 2008 I will be contacting people for renewel of the site as their date comes up. Thank you. Rich Divizio modeltrainsweathered.com
Springfield PA
One question: If you were a writer for a magazine, would you accept that the publisher wanted you to pay for the "privilege" to share your knowledge?
And I can´t see the similarities between a club and a Web-Forum. Being a member of a local MR club gives me the possibility to enjoy train-operations with others and real social interactions. Being a member of a national organisation gives me the benefits of a cool magazine and people that does their best to lobby for my interests. I don´t see neither in the Web Forums. They ARE however a great place to exchange quick info and to ask questions about stuff, even if the answers differs to the N´th degree .
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
GraffenOne question: If you were a writer for a magazine, would you accept that the publisher wanted you to pay for the "privilege" to share your knowledge? ....
....
I suspect magazines pay for finished articles or ones they feel they can edit into finished articles. While they want them factual of course, they mostly want them publishable and if necessary timely. It's like having a medical degree, no one pays you just because you have medical knowledge, they pay you to use that knowledge to diagnose and treat.
The online forums provide a place for people to share knowledge (and opinions, etc.) without doing anything with that knowledge. I'm not aware of any that pay members, because of their knowledge, to participate (although, as big as the internet is, there is probably one somewhere).
It's kind of like hanging out with each other with out being physically together and talking model railroading. Like any group we ask and answer questions, show off stuff we done, brag a little, and just kind of enjoy the experience. We "pay" for the place by having advertising, at the local bar you do it by buying a beer for more than the supermarket charges. Whether you want to pay for a place on the internet by subscription fees is up to you, but there are plenty of places where all you "pay" is getting some advertising. At least here all the advertising is for stuff I'm interested in. Some sites I go to, I pay by having to watch a soap commercial and I mean that literally - they run a video ad selling soap.
Enjoy
Paul
GraffenOne question: If you were a writer for a magazine, would you accept that the publisher wanted you to pay for the "privilege" to share your knowledge?
You are seemingly making the assumption that the people who bellyache the most about having to pay a yearly membership fee for MTW also are people who actually would have made the most valuable contributions to MTW.
That losing the contributions from these people would make MTW have less value for it's other members.
I am not so sure that this is the case. I think that the first people MTW will lose is the ones for which weathering is not all that important. Because if it had been extremely important to them, they would somehow have found $20 to pay for a yearly membership.
So what do you get at MTW ? Fewer posts, very likely. But not necessarily a great decline in the quality of posts made. Perhaps even an improved signal-to-noise ratio - something which could quite possibly even enhance the value of the content for the group's remaining members.
Plus (possibly) less work for the owner administering the group and dealing with misbehaving users.
Introducing a membership fee for the forum is quite a gamble for the owner.
It may make business sense, but it may also be a very dumb move. Hard to say in advance how valuable it will be for the core people who have been posting at MTW to keep their guruhood status at MTW, and how valuable it will be for people who have been reading MTW to be able to continue reading MTW.
Time will tell.
Smile, Stein
Very good Stein, I hadn't looked at it that way. You may be very close to the thoughts of the site owners. I'm sure there are quite a few people who "gawk" and not contribute in any way and they are not worried about losing non participants. No faulty thinking there. By charging a fee they are only going to get the serious ones who will want to get something for their money and are serious weatherers. MTW may or may not be an elite forum, that is up to a persons personal feelings, but by having a fee they are at least making it a private club. And that is their right. There are many private clubs around and no one has any heartburn about them so as far as I'm concerned they can have their private club too.
Everyones spending is based on what they want. I watch sports sometimes but I don't feel the need to pay to have a sports package channel no matter how many Ranger games they show. Some people think it's the greatest deal on earth. To each their own.
Personally I truly believe I can attain a higher level of weathering ability by asking the fantastic people on this forum for help, than I ever intended to when I started. There are some very talented artists here and it shows every week in WPF at the least. Maybe someday I may change my mind you never know but for now, I wish them luck, I really do. Enjoy the Forum but don't look for me. Maybe it's because I don't feel good enough, maybe it's because my personality needs a bit of good with the bad, or I can only take being poked with a small stick and not the entire tree. Who knows. I doubt that my absence will be an issue..
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
Stein - You make some very good points.
Since the site went 'private', the quality of the posters did improve a noticeable bit and I agree that the quality should become more refined for those who choose to stay.
The members from here who have complained about their treatment missed the part about being able to take constructive criticism. There are plenty of 'atta boy' comments there too, but it's when a model knocks your socks off and not because someone was fishing for compliments on an item that clearly wasn't even close to prototype.
A higher level of modeling demands a higher level of study and pushing your own personal skill level at what you enjoy doing most. For a few of the contributing members there, weathering is their passion, others it's diorama building and vehicles, but it is called Model Trains Weathered for a reason.
The core group that Rich started with were eBayer's who were making outstanding weathered items, some which reached astounding levels of realism and the monetary rewards that went with it. Now when you look at eBay's selections under 'Custom Weathered', it seems like anyone with a spray can and some powders can ask outrageous prices, and astoundingly get them!
Only two or three contributors there sell on eBay, some do commission work and some for their own layouts. Everyone who contributes however takes time to share techniques and give constructive criticism.
Sometimes personality clashes occur, we are human.
How successful Rich's pay scheme works out is yet to be seen. He owns the site and makes these decisions. There really is no advertising revenue per se, it's all been on his shoulders.
The core membership is very solid and will continue to provide it's unique content.
Jerry - MTW moderator
Hey everyone, Rich Divizio here, aka the Owner of modeltrainweathered.com
It all started 6 years ago when I created the mtw site. I created it because I felt there was aneed to have a place where people could go and discuss "The Art of Weathering"Since weathering can be Military model related or Arts & Craft related, I just figured I'd call itmodeltrainsweathered. If you know me, you'll know that I don't give *** about Quantity ofanything, meaning, how many Members can I get. I don't care that after 6 years I only havearound 1800 Users, I always cared about the Quality, not Quantity. So the site grew,then grew some more, all over the world in fact because I was tapping into a Niche that otherswere not, and to tell ya the truth, there are still modelers out there that stick their nose up atseeing rolling stock get dirty. Overs the years though, they started to come, more and more,and before you knew it, everyone knew us. I received an email the other day about why can'tI just keep the site free and get Advertising to keep up the cost of running it like Joe Fugate does with Model Railroad Hobbiest, well because Joe's site, and even TRAINS.com cover the whole range of the hobby, so companies will be able to reach the whole variety of model railroaders, from the kits, to the paints, to the models, the trackwork, trees, etc.I tried the Ad campaign thing and because we are a Niche site, many people don't want to advertise. Sure, I may get someone who wants to put an Ad, but it's usually where we agree that my Ad is on their site. So it's even. $20 a year, that's really nothing for what you will get out of being a member on my site.It's a little over 5 cents a day for 365 days worth of ever changing information and basically6 years worth of back information to dive into.I know times are tough for many right now, so as far as a Subscription Fee, I wanted to keep the price fair.So far, the response has been great! and mostly the ones that don't like it, have been ZERO posters over the last 6 Years. They have never contributed anything in 6 Years. But then on the flipside, maybe your just someone that has never posted anything in 6 years, but you have told others about the site, which is great promotion for mtw, so I thank you there. And another thing, is that there are many of you that are emailing me saying that $20 is too low because this place is a GOLDMINE of information, and it has helped them over the years. So go figure, $20 a Year is a Fair Deal. I don't think people think about my TIME, my MONEY, my GRAPHIC DESIGN time, LAYOUT and feel of the site, how it will flow, keeping the bad elements out, giving people a place to Showcase their work so that they can actually use that as a Springboard to making money for themselves, by getting Commision work, which in 6 years I've never wanted any kind of dime for that. You can Network here. You can Learn here. You can Grow here.Another thing too, some have said, why don't I just try Donations.Been there, Done that. Out of 1800 Users I probably received 6 donations.So, I tried the Ads, the Donations, and now we shall see.
Thanks to everyone that has been supportive.Rich Diviziomodeltrainsweathered.commtw
Good luck with your site. I'm a big proponent of weathering, and probably would have contributed if I knew about the site before yesterday. But I'm not about to pay $20 when there are so many other places to pursue research, and learn modeling technique without a fee. I'd rather face Google ads than pay dollars. Have fun.
I consider myself a very good weatherer, and feel that my work rivals virtually anything that is posted on Model Trains Weathered, but I personally was very put off by some of the regulars over there. There is definately a core group, that includes those that I believe are moderators, that felt compelled to chime in on every thread. One guy in particular thought that he was the apitome of prototypye knowledge and weatherering and would make commentary on the most trivial of omissions or errors. I believe my work is superior to this particular individuals, but I never wanted to give him the satisfaction of critiquing my work, without knowing my modeling intentions. Many of the regulars are primarily interested in maintaining their status within the forum, and they achieve this by being the self appointed police and critics of the forum. The real turn off was the core group who thought their techniques were being ripped off by potential Ebay marketers. Essentially the core group wants to maintain their superior position within the custom weathering market on ebay. I respect the work of some the regulars over their, but they definitely want to be the judge and jury for weathered model trains. I won't name names but I'm sure Rich knows who the most annoying and offensive members are .
The Wheeling WayI consider myself a very good weatherer, and feel that my work rivals virtually anything that is posted on Model Trains Weathered, but I personally was very put off by some of the regulars over there. There is definately a core group, that includes those that I believe are moderators, that felt compelled to chime in on every thread. One guy in particular thought that he was the apitome of prototypye knowledge and weatherering and would make commentary on the most trivial of omissions or errors. I believe my work is superior to this particular individuals, but I never wanted to give him the satisfaction of critiquing my work, without knowing my modeling intentions. Many of the regulars are primarily interested in maintaining their status within the forum, and they achieve this by being the self appointed police and critics of the forum. The real turn off was the core group who thought their techniques were being ripped off by potential Ebay marketers. Essentially the core group wants to maintain their superior position within the custom weathering market on ebay. I respect the work of some the regulars over their, but they definitely want to be the judge and jury for weathered model trains. I won't name names but I'm sure Rich knows who the most annoying and offensive members are .
Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up?
I really don't think you know what you're talking about when you speak about the core group. In "the core group", there are only two (2) eBayers.
When you have a forum called MTW, it's going to cover the subject, like it or not. If it was called "The Average Train Modeling Forum", you might have a point., but it isn't, we strive for a real weathering perspective even in our fantasy section, anything less is average. We just don't have an attitude like yours and can give and take criticism and learn from getting another perspective.
The Wheeling Way I consider myself a very good weatherer, and feel that my work rivals virtually anything that is posted on Model Trains Weathered, but I personally was very put off by some of the regulars over there. There is definately a core group, that includes those that I believe are moderators, that felt compelled to chime in on every thread. One guy in particular thought that he was the apitome of prototypye knowledge and weatherering and would make commentary on the most trivial of omissions or errors. I believe my work is superior to this particular individuals, but I never wanted to give him the satisfaction of critiquing my work, without knowing my modeling intentions. Many of the regulars are primarily interested in maintaining their status within the forum, and they achieve this by being the self appointed police and critics of the forum. The real turn off was the core group who thought their techniques were being ripped off by potential Ebay marketers. Essentially the core group wants to maintain their superior position within the custom weathering market on ebay. I respect the work of some the regulars over their, but they definitely want to be the judge and jury for weathered model trains. I won't name names but I'm sure Rich knows who the most annoying and offensive members are .
Agreed.
I loved going over there to check things out but always felt like a definite outsider.
Fees or no fees, that's Rich's call and I truly wish him the best of luck and hopefully it works.
I think it will be even more like an exclusive club now and I suspect those in the future that are thinking of joining might be even more intimidated and less apt to jump in to receive their "constructive criticism."
For me, I'll continue to hang out here with this wildy diverse group of characters.
San Dimas Southern slideshow
TMarsh Personally I truly believe I can attain a higher level of weathering ability by asking the fantastic people on this forum for help, than I ever intended to when I started. There are some very talented artists here and it shows every week in WPF at the least. Maybe someday I may change my mind you never know but for now, I wish them luck, I really do. Enjoy the Forum but don't look for me. Maybe it's because I don't feel good enough, maybe it's because my personality needs a bit of good with the bad, or I can only take being poked with a small stick and not the entire tree. Who knows.
Personally I truly believe I can attain a higher level of weathering ability by asking the fantastic people on this forum for help, than I ever intended to when I started. There are some very talented artists here and it shows every week in WPF at the least.
Maybe someday I may change my mind you never know but for now, I wish them luck, I really do. Enjoy the Forum but don't look for me.
Maybe it's because I don't feel good enough, maybe it's because my personality needs a bit of good with the bad, or I can only take being poked with a small stick and not the entire tree. Who knows.
Good points.
Can't say I have spent much time on MTW, either. But that's fine - I am not really in Rick's target audience anyways - my core interests (at least for now) are prototype research, layout design and operations.
Btw - that's one of the great things about model railroading - there is room for a lot of different approaches, and there are a lot of different ways to enjoy our common hobby.
I also totally agree with you about people right here in the trains.com forums being fantastic and very helpful humans. I really like it around here - this is my main hangout on the Net. There is pretty much always something interesting going on somewhere here.
When it comes to critique/comments on each other's work, I mostly agree with you.
My background and personality is such that I believe in being fairly direct and truthful when offering comments on things, instead of sugar coating things. I also believe in trying to be as dispassionate as I can when receiving critical comments on stuff I have done or made, instead of getting too emotional or defensive.
Critical comment on the way I do something can be used to learn from and grow by. So I don't really need critical comments handed to me like a sandwich (thick slice of praise, then a thin slice of criticism, then another thick slice of praise), to avoid bruising my ego.
But I by far prefer constructive criticism, where the person offering critique says "how about if you do things more like this instead ?" or "have you seen how this person did something similar?", instead of just saying "that looks so ugly".
Grin,Stein
i am a member of MTW and enjoy the models i have not been asked for 20 dollars i must have missed the email... you are right in some respects that some of the people can be bitchy HOWEVER is that a bad thing if a model of mine was presented for comments i would expect truthfull comments when i drive 4 x 4 or ride my motorcycle i get truthfull comments when things are NOT QUITE RIGHT
i asked a question on this website ... what has happened to MTW ??? when i could not enter the site due to the changes i was told in no uncertain terms not to mention other forums in this forum... i was given the example that i would not go to a ford dealer and talk about other makes of cars !!!!!!
now that some people are dumpimg on MTW the forum is allowed to reach 4 pages ???? mmmm
Why is a forum from another website being discussed on the Model Railroader forum?
- Don't use our forum as a means of promoting your forum (or online group, sweepstakes, prize drawings, contests, etc.). Within your forum profile, you're allowed to share your own Web site and Blog URL. Leave it at that. (To update your forum profile, login to the forums, then click your username where it says "Welcome back so-and-so" near the top of the forum.)
Don Z.
I think that the people that are the most negative to others work on the MTW is a case of : nanos gigantum humeris insidentes.
Neutrino Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up?
And tell us your address while you are at it? {read - Wouldn't posting his work identify him when he wishes to remain anonymous?}
OK, here is an opinion from and outsider. I read this thread out of curiosity, had never heard of the site, checked it out a little. I have seen the work of some of those who are regulars there and commented on its high quality to them on this site several times in the past.
For me personally, that level of weathering is of no interest. While I can appreciate it, I'm not interested in it for a number of reasons. Mainly because most of it is focused on present day modeling which is WAY outside my chosen era. And while there was old, dirty, worn out stuff in my chosen era of the early 50's, it was largely, a newer, brighter, cleaner era in railroading than today. And, I am amittedly a reformed rivet counter who now models with the three foot rule.
So I would not spend time there even if it's free - BUT, to my way of thinking, $20 is a bargin for those who are into that.
I get very tired of those who post on forums complaining about the cost of the hobby. It is just a hobby, it is not food, shelter or clothing. NOBODY owes you the experiance of model railroading. It is a LUXURY that one persues in ones free time with ones disposable resources.
It takes hard work and dedication to bring to market all the products, forums, publications, clubs, openhouses, shows, conventions, organizations and activities of this hobby. WHY should anyone do that FOR someone else for free! Its fine if people choose to promote or advance the hobby at their own expense, but others have come to expect that, and that expectation is wrong.
But what do I know, I just a hick with a pickup and a gun.
I wish Modeltrainsweathwered.com the best of luck in its future.
Sheldon
selector Neutrino Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up? And tell us your address while you are at it? {read - Wouldn't posting his work identify him when he wishes to remain anonymous?}
The attitude I've seen there is not very "professional" if this is what we are really after in the MTW forum. I'm not too sure that many really know just what 'CRITIQUING' is. A critique denotes BOTH the positive AND the negative of the WORK itself. Without bashing the doer of that work. It is this that tends to be the sticking point.
I love seeing the level of quality that is displayed on that site. The buildings, that "DaveInTheHat" has are great looking pieces of art---they, to this fellow anyways--are a type of folk art that one doesn't always see in any forum.
The problem then is, to my way of thinking, to kick up the professionalism that I see on that forum to include methods of critiquing that avoid the pitfalls of a rather unprofessional streetfighter. To include an attitude that befits the quality level that I see therein. Not just "It's Ugly" ---for example--why is it ugly to you? What can the person do to make it work? What do you see that has potential?
My way of thinking regarding this is derived from working in building rehabilitation --wherein one sees the potential and not just what is in front of them
steinjr Critical comment on the way I do something can be used to learn from and grow by. So I don't really need critical comments handed to me like a sandwich (thick slice of praise, then a thin slice of criticism, then another thick slice of praise), to avoid bruising my ego. But I by far prefer constructive criticism, where the person offering critique says "how about if you do things more like this instead ?" or "have you seen how this person did something similar?", instead of just saying "that looks so ugly"
But I by far prefer constructive criticism, where the person offering critique says "how about if you do things more like this instead ?" or "have you seen how this person did something similar?", instead of just saying "that looks so ugly"
Stein-Yes, I agree. My reference to what I want to hear was, for the most part, tongue in cheek (I forget sometimes the typed word does not show facial expressions ). Usually that is what they say the problem is with people who don't like MTW or should I say some of the attitudes on the site. So I thought I would just offer it up first. Beat'em to the punch so to speak. If something is done well and someone notices an improvement in that area, then yes maybe a comment is good, but no not necessarily needed. I must admit, like everyone, I like to hear I've done something good, but I also understand that is not the purpose of asking someone for help unless of course what you've done is good and needs to be said, but for the record, no I wouldn't be upset if someone didn't give me "the sandwich" I totally agree with your last paragraph and that pretty much says what I mean. You can offer a critique, an honest critique, without being insulting. If someone needs to resort to that then they remind me of the schoolyard bully.
Odd that the only real complaint I've ever heard about MTW is the rudeness and ego's that shine on the site. There is nothing that is downplayed about anything else (until now with the fee and I totally see Rich's point and agree with him. If you want the site someone will have to pay. All of it by him or some of it by the users. I do believe the lack of willing advertisers for such a small part of any hobby.) Praise for the site abounds but always involves a caveat which usually implies there are a few folks over there that are a bit on the "Greater Than Thou" kick and are a bit harsh. Now they can defend their attitudes anyway they want. Twisting the point and worming it around to where, like a little kid, it's not their fault, but many folks who are part of the forum say the same thing. Now It's already been stated that out of 1800 members, not all are participants. Many participants say the same things we've been saying but just choose to ignore them. Many more say the same thing and never chose to be on the site, yet feel as many do and as The Wheeling Way has said and especially as Margaritaman has highlighted. So like I used to tell my kids, "if it's one or two who you have a problem with, then it might be them. But if it's a bunch, then more than likely it's you that's the problem no matter how you try to flip the story."
I'll say it again, I do wish Rich well in his endeavor to keep a site alive that plays host to some of the best weatherers in the world. (notice I said some, not all) He cannot please every person so he must do what is the best for most, at least as he sees it. I do not believe $20 a year is too much for an active membership to a club. Cheap in fact for the activity you get. I however, like many others prefer to stay free of charge. Freeload if you will. That is my choice and I make no claims that others are wrong. Unfortunately, my experience with MTW though fleeting, very fleeting, will be remembered. Since I will not be able to stick my head in occasionally to see how things are, I sincerely doubt I will ever "try" the site and I might go out on a limb and make that claim for a few others.
I may be wrong, but many of a Forum's new members have visited a forum for some time to get a feel for it. With a membership fee they may have severely put a damper on new members. Unless they are invited by current ones. Maybe they can get the members that fit the requirements that way.
Just like a club where you whip women in leather, I have no problem with their club, I just choose not to be involved. My choice, you do what you want of course.
selectorNeutrino Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up? And tell us your address while you are at it? {read - Wouldn't posting his work identify him when he wishes to remain anonymous?}
Selector - How could a photo of his work identify him if he only has one post to his name?
A claim like that should at least offer some credible back-up. There are most likely other reasons he wants to remain anonymous.
Jerry
Well, I guess we'll have to see what happens to them a year from now. To me, a subscription-only web site isn't going to work. We're all used to free, advertiser-supported content, and asking people to pay for it doesn't go over big. One big problem with this sort of thing is losing visitors. In a "community" web site where participation of lots of people makes the content better, the pay-for-play model drives away visitors and contributers and reduces the overall appeal of the site. They may find themselves with a very small and in-bred subscriber list, and their user-supplied content will suffer tremendously if that happens.
I like the Trainboard model better. It's advertiser-supported, to some extent, and they have a voluntary contribution system as well. I host my photos there, and I visit their forums too. So, I'm happy to give them the "suggested" $2 monthly contribution. That comes out more than the MTW fee, but I'm not hurting for money, and I think it's a worthwhile support of the hobby.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
blownout cylinder The attitude I've seen there is not very "professional" if this is what we are really after in the MTW forum. I'm not too sure that many really know just what 'CRITIQUING' is. A critique denotes BOTH the positive AND the negative of the WORK itself. Without bashing the doer of that work. It is this that tends to be the sticking point. I love seeing the level of quality that is displayed on that site. The buildings, that "DaveInTheHat" has are great looking pieces of art---they, to this fellow anyways--are a type of folk art that one doesn't always see in any forum. The problem then is, to my way of thinking, to kick up the professionalism that I see on that forum to include methods of critiquing that avoid the pitfalls of a rather unprofessional streetfighter. To include an attitude that befits the quality level that I see therein. Not just "It's Ugly" ---for example--why is it ugly to you? What can the person do to make it work? What do you see that has potential? My way of thinking regarding this is derived from working in building rehabilitation --wherein one sees the potential and not just what is in front of them
Barry- True. Very true. If you look up he word in the dictionary you will probably get a definition more like what they want. However if they've ever been in the real world where an activity or arrangement or anything that requires input or "critiquing" is used or needed, they would know that if you do not involve the good with the bad you are accomplishing nothing (well maybe not nothing, but how do you know what to keep?). They teach entire courses on this. Yes even the Army. Been there done that, got the T-shirt and yes it was brown .
THAT being said, I still maintain that a sugar coating is not required and if there is something good and it has already been mentioned it is not necessary to keep mentioning it, but you do not need to ask the person if they're blind. That serves no purpose in a critique other than to imply you are better. We know that. That's why you are asked.
TMarshTHAT being said, I still maintain that a sugar coating is not required and if there is something good and it has already been mentioned it is not necessary to keep mentioning it, but you do not need to ask the person if they're blind. That serves no purpose in a critique other than to imply you are better. We know that. That's why you are asked.
--No need for the sugar coating---might get some people a little more frisky!!
I know what you mean there with the sugar coating--that is/was not what I meant when I said that. The idea here is what worked in the viewers mind with the weathering project. With some types of people a kind of reinforcing does work but then again-----
MisterBeasleyWell, I guess we'll have to see what happens to them a year from now. To me, a subscription-only web site isn't going to work. We're all used to free, advertiser-supported content, and asking people to pay for it doesn't go over big. One big problem with this sort of thing is losing visitors. In a "community" web site where participation of lots of people makes the content better, the pay-for-play model drives away visitors and contributers and reduces the overall appeal of the site. They may find themselves with a very small and in-bred subscriber list, and their user-supplied content will suffer tremendously if that happens. I like the Trainboard model better. It's advertiser-supported, to some extent, and they have a voluntary contribution system as well. I host my photos there, and I visit their forums too. So, I'm happy to give them the "suggested" $2 monthly contribution. That comes out more than the MTW fee, but I'm not hurting for money, and I think it's a worthwhile support of the hobby.
The reduction of members really won't hurt the quality of content at MTW because less than 1% of members contribute to any measurable degree. I don't think it was ever about quantity as Rich stated previously, but quality.
Rich was not naive enough to drive out his core contributors with a fee, so in effect he is not charging those who have contributed comments and participated over the years. His email was directed at the other 1,870 'members' who belong and don't post at all.
Jerry - MTW Mod
I have a difficult time believing that a website with photo galleries and text can't be set up to be free for visitors and contributors. The price you pay for server space can be defrayed by non-model railroading banner ads and other ugly junk (and I do mean ugly). But, as has been said, someone has to pay!I have been participating in a slot car website that posts news and articles:http://slotcarnews.blogspot.com/
Which site includes my own growing data base page of photos, electric motor specs/test results:http://slotcarnews.blogspot.com/2007/02/slot-car-news-motor-list.html
There are fees for the server space, but the site visitors (or contributors) never see them. Our costs are defrayed by Google ads, so we end up making a profit that approximates the yearly subscription fee for the weathering site in question (20 bucks profit!). Our site is free to ANYONE. We had 376,790 visitors in 2008 (generating 471,138 page loads), so you can see it is working. Did I mention it is free? That kind of volume pays the freight. I can't imagine how we could survive without the advertising revenue. Slot cars constitute a very small slice of the world's hobby pie, and is a miniscule hobby compared to model railroading (it might be the same size as the weathering contingent alone). The small banners for hobby shops and specialty hobby manufacturers are free, hosted by us at no charge. Small businesses don't have a lot of money to throw around, so we accommodate them gratis, and thereby help our hobby survive.
Anyway, the point is, it can all be done for free, provided you can tolerate the Google ads.
blownout cylinderI know what you mean there with the sugar coating--that is/was not what I meant when I said that.
Oh I know that. I just added it to address the apparent confliction with what I'd said to Stein earlier. You know I said no coating, now I say to coat, but yet not coat. But do.... Wait, now I'm confused.
Neutrino The reduction of members really won't hurt the quality of content at MTW because less than 1% of members contribute to any measurable degree. I don't think it was ever about quantity as Rich stated previously, but quality. Rich was not naive enough to drive out his core contributors with a fee, so in effect he is not charging those who have contributed comments and participated over the years. His email was directed at the other 1,870 'members' who belong and don't post at all.
Was there any looking into other means of funding the site? I',m not sure that only Google is the only one out there but then again----
As for the others, was there any way of enticing more participation out of the rest I wonder. It seems to be a lot of lurking going on on that site with those kinds of numbers from the members alone. Are those people not posting because there might be an issue with the crabbiness of some there?