spidge One of the worst things in my opinion is to praise crappy work so the poster goes on thinking he is doing well. Maybe the language is a bit harsh here and there but in the end one should improve the quality of his work as one takes the criticizm and responds with changing and improving personal technique.
Agreed, but I don't think the real issue is praising poor work. You are correct that is just filling someone with false direction and is of no help. The issue, as far as I am saying, is the way it is delivered. Taking criticizm of the work is one thing, it's when the criticizm goes beyond the work that is another issue.
I have posted a few items here and recieved some feedback on them. Coming to mind is a scratch build. My first, small, but my first. On that I did recieve mixed feedback. Some pointing out what I did correct and some what I needed to improve or did incorrect. The good stuff pointed out what I did do that I may not have realized and told me to keep in that direction there and the corrections told me what I could do to improve. I posted a railcar that I had no intention of passing as good, it was my first attempt at weathering a long time before and was mearly an example of "we all start off poorly" I recieved no good comments but some comments both on the forum and in PM's ranging from how to better the picture to, next time contact me and we'll work through this. No one said "holy(insert expletive) that's horrid." Of course I knew this and they knew I did, but my point is they made it known it wasn't good, i.e. crappy, without reverting to slamming me. I've taken the information offered and am applying it to another structure, and in my opinion is much, much better than anything I've done before. Not great mind you, but better. I've posted "so far" photos and recieved some feedback as to how to make improvements. All very civily(sp?). Why? Because though I'm no spring chicken, like many, some aspects of this hobby are new to me and I'm not very good at it and they know it. I know it. That's why I ask for help. to get better not to be told I s***. You don't have to coddle me, but you don't have to beat me into the ground to get your point across.
Maybe we are taking things out of context and lumping both forums into one group. MR is more like a get together group type forum and maybe MTW is more like a workshop and the expectations should not be the same. With the latest info I've seen by MTW people it sounds more and more like it's direction is going more towards a group of exceptional modelers (and they are) and if you want to learn from them in a workshop type environment with unlimited exposure, it will cost you $20 year. And that is great. Like an online college class. For the information available I still maintain it is cheap. Not saying it fits into everybodies budget, but cheap. A new Rolls Royce for $60.000 is cheap but not many could afford it.
As far as comparing the magazine subscribers only aspect of this forum, I do believe that MR uses this forum to promote magazine sales also. Whether it be subscription or off the shelf. If a person is allowed to participate in this forum, then maybe they would consider buying the mag. Many I'm sure do many don't. Either way they probably pick up some readers/buyers/subscribers by making this public. With the advertisements and sales the forum is profitable or at least break even. If it were a substatial loss over time I doubt if they would keep it. IMHO.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
To move back towards the primary topic. I've been a member of MTW for a few years now. I will readily admit to being one of those members Rich described that doesn't, and hasn't, posted often. I posted a few things in the beginning and received some good feedback and what I posted was well received. I haven't posted much becuase of being in a different phase of modeling with getting a layout designed and construction started.
Would a $20 annual subscription fee be worth it? The question or 'worth' or 'value' is a personal decision. What may have value to one person will have a different value to the next person. But, $20 is about the price (or less than) of a nice, new RTR car by Atlas, InterMountain, Athearn etc. The other way to look at it is, "What is the price of the knowledge available on MTW?" I'm reminded of much debated statements - This is not a cheap hobby anymore and You get what you pay for.
Neutrino selector Neutrino Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up? And tell us your address while you are at it? {read - Wouldn't posting his work identify him when he wishes to remain anonymous?} Selector - How could a photo of his work identify him if he only has one post to his name? A claim like that should at least offer some credible back-up. There are most likely other reasons he wants to remain anonymous. Jerry
selector Neutrino Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up? And tell us your address while you are at it? {read - Wouldn't posting his work identify him when he wishes to remain anonymous?}
Neutrino Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up?
Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up?
And tell us your address while you are at it? {read - Wouldn't posting his work identify him when he wishes to remain anonymous?}
Selector - How could a photo of his work identify him if he only has one post to his name?
A claim like that should at least offer some credible back-up. There are most likely other reasons he wants to remain anonymous.
Jerry
It would identify him to people on MTW who may be reading here?
I just treat it like a magazine subscription, I don't have any and refuse to dig into my almost non-existant hobby money for one. If I had the extra I would pay it and start contributing as the results from the talent there is exceptional.
Any time you put work in any forum and ask for feedback there will always be a few who have difficulty expressing themselves through the forum without comming accross harsh. One of the worst things in my opinion is to praise crappy work so the poster goes on thinking he is doing well. Maybe the language is a bit harsh here and there but in the end one should improve the quality of his work as one takes the criticizm and responds with changing and improving personal technique.
I know this post is moving way away from the dirrection the thread is going but thought we needed to be re-grounded before someone gets upset.
John
Silver PilotAgain, what would you say if access was restricted to paid subscription holders? I would be for it just to cut down on the repetitive, basic questions that could be answered by someone with a subscription looking a recent issue of MR.
And again. Why are we having issues with repetitive postings of the same questions? It's been done before--why bother doing it again--all landscapes look the same. why bother painting another one--
Look, if the question is so annoying to you then you don't need to read it again either. Most sites have had at one time or another something called FAQ's. MR and mtw don't seem to have that type of thing going on and why not? Sometimes it might just be that certain ways of doing things change or such.
Archive the forum and just call it a library--
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
spidge Packers#1 my account there got blocked out when they switched to you ahve to be sugested, and lrod knows I ain't paying $20 a year for any forum, lol. As creative as the folks there are I cannot substantiate a $20 offering either. Shoot I cannot substantiate a subscription to this magazine at this point either.
Packers#1 my account there got blocked out when they switched to you ahve to be sugested, and lrod knows I ain't paying $20 a year for any forum, lol.
my account there got blocked out when they switched to you ahve to be sugested, and lrod knows I ain't paying $20 a year for any forum, lol.
As creative as the folks there are I cannot substantiate a $20 offering either. Shoot I cannot substantiate a subscription to this magazine at this point either.
I realize I'm jumping in kind of late -
SO, the big question would be WHAT IF Kalmbach required a subscription to MR (or any of their other magazines) to access this forum? From the response to my question a few weeks ago about who has a subscription - not "I pick up a copy at the store" but a paid subscription where the magazine is delivered to your door in the mail- there seems to be a number of, for lack of a better phrase, "freeloaders" here. People who are forum members (some quite heavy users) who don't bother to subscribe to MR and help support the fine company that provides this forum.
Again, what would you say if access was restricted to paid subscription holders? I would be for it just to cut down on the repetitive, basic questions that could be answered by someone with a subscription looking a recent issue of MR.
NeutrinoThe reduction of members really won't hurt the quality of content at MTW because less than 1% of members contribute to any measurable degree. I don't think it was ever about quantity as Rich stated previously, but quality.
I believe that to be more than likely very true.
NeutrinoRich was not naive enough to drive out his core contributors with a fee, so in effect he is not charging those who have contributed comments and participated over the years.
Neutrino The reduction of members really won't hurt the quality of content at MTW because less than 1% of members contribute to any measurable degree. I don't think it was ever about quantity as Rich stated previously, but quality. Rich was not naive enough to drive out his core contributors with a fee, so in effect he is not charging those who have contributed comments and participated over the years. His email was directed at the other 1,870 'members' who belong and don't post at all.
The reduction of members really won't hurt the quality of content at MTW because less than 1% of members contribute to any measurable degree. I don't think it was ever about quantity as Rich stated previously, but quality.
Rich was not naive enough to drive out his core contributors with a fee, so in effect he is not charging those who have contributed comments and participated over the years. His email was directed at the other 1,870 'members' who belong and don't post at all.
Was there any looking into other means of funding the site? I',m not sure that only Google is the only one out there but then again----
As for the others, was there any way of enticing more participation out of the rest I wonder. It seems to be a lot of lurking going on on that site with those kinds of numbers from the members alone. Are those people not posting because there might be an issue with the crabbiness of some there?
blownout cylinderI know what you mean there with the sugar coating--that is/was not what I meant when I said that.
Oh I know that. I just added it to address the apparent confliction with what I'd said to Stein earlier. You know I said no coating, now I say to coat, but yet not coat. But do.... Wait, now I'm confused.
I have a difficult time believing that a website with photo galleries and text can't be set up to be free for visitors and contributors. The price you pay for server space can be defrayed by non-model railroading banner ads and other ugly junk (and I do mean ugly). But, as has been said, someone has to pay!I have been participating in a slot car website that posts news and articles:http://slotcarnews.blogspot.com/
Which site includes my own growing data base page of photos, electric motor specs/test results:http://slotcarnews.blogspot.com/2007/02/slot-car-news-motor-list.html
There are fees for the server space, but the site visitors (or contributors) never see them. Our costs are defrayed by Google ads, so we end up making a profit that approximates the yearly subscription fee for the weathering site in question (20 bucks profit!). Our site is free to ANYONE. We had 376,790 visitors in 2008 (generating 471,138 page loads), so you can see it is working. Did I mention it is free? That kind of volume pays the freight. I can't imagine how we could survive without the advertising revenue. Slot cars constitute a very small slice of the world's hobby pie, and is a miniscule hobby compared to model railroading (it might be the same size as the weathering contingent alone). The small banners for hobby shops and specialty hobby manufacturers are free, hosted by us at no charge. Small businesses don't have a lot of money to throw around, so we accommodate them gratis, and thereby help our hobby survive.
Anyway, the point is, it can all be done for free, provided you can tolerate the Google ads.
MisterBeasleyWell, I guess we'll have to see what happens to them a year from now. To me, a subscription-only web site isn't going to work. We're all used to free, advertiser-supported content, and asking people to pay for it doesn't go over big. One big problem with this sort of thing is losing visitors. In a "community" web site where participation of lots of people makes the content better, the pay-for-play model drives away visitors and contributers and reduces the overall appeal of the site. They may find themselves with a very small and in-bred subscriber list, and their user-supplied content will suffer tremendously if that happens. I like the Trainboard model better. It's advertiser-supported, to some extent, and they have a voluntary contribution system as well. I host my photos there, and I visit their forums too. So, I'm happy to give them the "suggested" $2 monthly contribution. That comes out more than the MTW fee, but I'm not hurting for money, and I think it's a worthwhile support of the hobby.
Well, I guess we'll have to see what happens to them a year from now. To me, a subscription-only web site isn't going to work. We're all used to free, advertiser-supported content, and asking people to pay for it doesn't go over big. One big problem with this sort of thing is losing visitors. In a "community" web site where participation of lots of people makes the content better, the pay-for-play model drives away visitors and contributers and reduces the overall appeal of the site. They may find themselves with a very small and in-bred subscriber list, and their user-supplied content will suffer tremendously if that happens.
I like the Trainboard model better. It's advertiser-supported, to some extent, and they have a voluntary contribution system as well. I host my photos there, and I visit their forums too. So, I'm happy to give them the "suggested" $2 monthly contribution. That comes out more than the MTW fee, but I'm not hurting for money, and I think it's a worthwhile support of the hobby.
Jerry - MTW Mod
TMarshTHAT being said, I still maintain that a sugar coating is not required and if there is something good and it has already been mentioned it is not necessary to keep mentioning it, but you do not need to ask the person if they're blind. That serves no purpose in a critique other than to imply you are better. We know that. That's why you are asked.
--No need for the sugar coating---might get some people a little more frisky!!
I know what you mean there with the sugar coating--that is/was not what I meant when I said that. The idea here is what worked in the viewers mind with the weathering project. With some types of people a kind of reinforcing does work but then again-----
blownout cylinder The attitude I've seen there is not very "professional" if this is what we are really after in the MTW forum. I'm not too sure that many really know just what 'CRITIQUING' is. A critique denotes BOTH the positive AND the negative of the WORK itself. Without bashing the doer of that work. It is this that tends to be the sticking point. I love seeing the level of quality that is displayed on that site. The buildings, that "DaveInTheHat" has are great looking pieces of art---they, to this fellow anyways--are a type of folk art that one doesn't always see in any forum. The problem then is, to my way of thinking, to kick up the professionalism that I see on that forum to include methods of critiquing that avoid the pitfalls of a rather unprofessional streetfighter. To include an attitude that befits the quality level that I see therein. Not just "It's Ugly" ---for example--why is it ugly to you? What can the person do to make it work? What do you see that has potential? My way of thinking regarding this is derived from working in building rehabilitation --wherein one sees the potential and not just what is in front of them
The attitude I've seen there is not very "professional" if this is what we are really after in the MTW forum. I'm not too sure that many really know just what 'CRITIQUING' is. A critique denotes BOTH the positive AND the negative of the WORK itself. Without bashing the doer of that work. It is this that tends to be the sticking point.
I love seeing the level of quality that is displayed on that site. The buildings, that "DaveInTheHat" has are great looking pieces of art---they, to this fellow anyways--are a type of folk art that one doesn't always see in any forum.
The problem then is, to my way of thinking, to kick up the professionalism that I see on that forum to include methods of critiquing that avoid the pitfalls of a rather unprofessional streetfighter. To include an attitude that befits the quality level that I see therein. Not just "It's Ugly" ---for example--why is it ugly to you? What can the person do to make it work? What do you see that has potential?
My way of thinking regarding this is derived from working in building rehabilitation --wherein one sees the potential and not just what is in front of them
Barry- True. Very true. If you look up he word in the dictionary you will probably get a definition more like what they want. However if they've ever been in the real world where an activity or arrangement or anything that requires input or "critiquing" is used or needed, they would know that if you do not involve the good with the bad you are accomplishing nothing (well maybe not nothing, but how do you know what to keep?). They teach entire courses on this. Yes even the Army. Been there done that, got the T-shirt and yes it was brown .
THAT being said, I still maintain that a sugar coating is not required and if there is something good and it has already been mentioned it is not necessary to keep mentioning it, but you do not need to ask the person if they're blind. That serves no purpose in a critique other than to imply you are better. We know that. That's why you are asked.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
selectorNeutrino Why don't you post a picture or two here to back yourself up? And tell us your address while you are at it? {read - Wouldn't posting his work identify him when he wishes to remain anonymous?}
steinjr Critical comment on the way I do something can be used to learn from and grow by. So I don't really need critical comments handed to me like a sandwich (thick slice of praise, then a thin slice of criticism, then another thick slice of praise), to avoid bruising my ego. But I by far prefer constructive criticism, where the person offering critique says "how about if you do things more like this instead ?" or "have you seen how this person did something similar?", instead of just saying "that looks so ugly"
Critical comment on the way I do something can be used to learn from and grow by. So I don't really need critical comments handed to me like a sandwich (thick slice of praise, then a thin slice of criticism, then another thick slice of praise), to avoid bruising my ego.
But I by far prefer constructive criticism, where the person offering critique says "how about if you do things more like this instead ?" or "have you seen how this person did something similar?", instead of just saying "that looks so ugly"
Stein-Yes, I agree. My reference to what I want to hear was, for the most part, tongue in cheek (I forget sometimes the typed word does not show facial expressions ). Usually that is what they say the problem is with people who don't like MTW or should I say some of the attitudes on the site. So I thought I would just offer it up first. Beat'em to the punch so to speak. If something is done well and someone notices an improvement in that area, then yes maybe a comment is good, but no not necessarily needed. I must admit, like everyone, I like to hear I've done something good, but I also understand that is not the purpose of asking someone for help unless of course what you've done is good and needs to be said, but for the record, no I wouldn't be upset if someone didn't give me "the sandwich" I totally agree with your last paragraph and that pretty much says what I mean. You can offer a critique, an honest critique, without being insulting. If someone needs to resort to that then they remind me of the schoolyard bully.
Odd that the only real complaint I've ever heard about MTW is the rudeness and ego's that shine on the site. There is nothing that is downplayed about anything else (until now with the fee and I totally see Rich's point and agree with him. If you want the site someone will have to pay. All of it by him or some of it by the users. I do believe the lack of willing advertisers for such a small part of any hobby.) Praise for the site abounds but always involves a caveat which usually implies there are a few folks over there that are a bit on the "Greater Than Thou" kick and are a bit harsh. Now they can defend their attitudes anyway they want. Twisting the point and worming it around to where, like a little kid, it's not their fault, but many folks who are part of the forum say the same thing. Now It's already been stated that out of 1800 members, not all are participants. Many participants say the same things we've been saying but just choose to ignore them. Many more say the same thing and never chose to be on the site, yet feel as many do and as The Wheeling Way has said and especially as Margaritaman has highlighted. So like I used to tell my kids, "if it's one or two who you have a problem with, then it might be them. But if it's a bunch, then more than likely it's you that's the problem no matter how you try to flip the story."
I'll say it again, I do wish Rich well in his endeavor to keep a site alive that plays host to some of the best weatherers in the world. (notice I said some, not all) He cannot please every person so he must do what is the best for most, at least as he sees it. I do not believe $20 a year is too much for an active membership to a club. Cheap in fact for the activity you get. I however, like many others prefer to stay free of charge. Freeload if you will. That is my choice and I make no claims that others are wrong. Unfortunately, my experience with MTW though fleeting, very fleeting, will be remembered. Since I will not be able to stick my head in occasionally to see how things are, I sincerely doubt I will ever "try" the site and I might go out on a limb and make that claim for a few others.
I may be wrong, but many of a Forum's new members have visited a forum for some time to get a feel for it. With a membership fee they may have severely put a damper on new members. Unless they are invited by current ones. Maybe they can get the members that fit the requirements that way.
Just like a club where you whip women in leather, I have no problem with their club, I just choose not to be involved. My choice, you do what you want of course.
OK, here is an opinion from and outsider. I read this thread out of curiosity, had never heard of the site, checked it out a little. I have seen the work of some of those who are regulars there and commented on its high quality to them on this site several times in the past.
For me personally, that level of weathering is of no interest. While I can appreciate it, I'm not interested in it for a number of reasons. Mainly because most of it is focused on present day modeling which is WAY outside my chosen era. And while there was old, dirty, worn out stuff in my chosen era of the early 50's, it was largely, a newer, brighter, cleaner era in railroading than today. And, I am amittedly a reformed rivet counter who now models with the three foot rule.
So I would not spend time there even if it's free - BUT, to my way of thinking, $20 is a bargin for those who are into that.
I get very tired of those who post on forums complaining about the cost of the hobby. It is just a hobby, it is not food, shelter or clothing. NOBODY owes you the experiance of model railroading. It is a LUXURY that one persues in ones free time with ones disposable resources.
It takes hard work and dedication to bring to market all the products, forums, publications, clubs, openhouses, shows, conventions, organizations and activities of this hobby. WHY should anyone do that FOR someone else for free! Its fine if people choose to promote or advance the hobby at their own expense, but others have come to expect that, and that expectation is wrong.
But what do I know, I just a hick with a pickup and a gun.
I wish Modeltrainsweathwered.com the best of luck in its future.
Sheldon
I think that the people that are the most negative to others work on the MTW is a case of : nanos gigantum humeris insidentes.
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
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Graff´s channel
i am a member of MTW and enjoy the models i have not been asked for 20 dollars i must have missed the email... you are right in some respects that some of the people can be bitchy HOWEVER is that a bad thing if a model of mine was presented for comments i would expect truthfull comments when i drive 4 x 4 or ride my motorcycle i get truthfull comments when things are NOT QUITE RIGHT
i asked a question on this website ... what has happened to MTW ??? when i could not enter the site due to the changes i was told in no uncertain terms not to mention other forums in this forum... i was given the example that i would not go to a ford dealer and talk about other makes of cars !!!!!!
now that some people are dumpimg on MTW the forum is allowed to reach 4 pages ???? mmmm
Why is a forum from another website being discussed on the Model Railroader forum?
- Don't use our forum as a means of promoting your forum (or online group, sweepstakes, prize drawings, contests, etc.). Within your forum profile, you're allowed to share your own Web site and Blog URL. Leave it at that. (To update your forum profile, login to the forums, then click your username where it says "Welcome back so-and-so" near the top of the forum.)
Don Z.
TMarsh Personally I truly believe I can attain a higher level of weathering ability by asking the fantastic people on this forum for help, than I ever intended to when I started. There are some very talented artists here and it shows every week in WPF at the least. Maybe someday I may change my mind you never know but for now, I wish them luck, I really do. Enjoy the Forum but don't look for me. Maybe it's because I don't feel good enough, maybe it's because my personality needs a bit of good with the bad, or I can only take being poked with a small stick and not the entire tree. Who knows.
Personally I truly believe I can attain a higher level of weathering ability by asking the fantastic people on this forum for help, than I ever intended to when I started. There are some very talented artists here and it shows every week in WPF at the least.
Maybe someday I may change my mind you never know but for now, I wish them luck, I really do. Enjoy the Forum but don't look for me.
Maybe it's because I don't feel good enough, maybe it's because my personality needs a bit of good with the bad, or I can only take being poked with a small stick and not the entire tree. Who knows.
Good points.
Can't say I have spent much time on MTW, either. But that's fine - I am not really in Rick's target audience anyways - my core interests (at least for now) are prototype research, layout design and operations.
Btw - that's one of the great things about model railroading - there is room for a lot of different approaches, and there are a lot of different ways to enjoy our common hobby.
I also totally agree with you about people right here in the trains.com forums being fantastic and very helpful humans. I really like it around here - this is my main hangout on the Net. There is pretty much always something interesting going on somewhere here.
When it comes to critique/comments on each other's work, I mostly agree with you.
My background and personality is such that I believe in being fairly direct and truthful when offering comments on things, instead of sugar coating things. I also believe in trying to be as dispassionate as I can when receiving critical comments on stuff I have done or made, instead of getting too emotional or defensive.
But I by far prefer constructive criticism, where the person offering critique says "how about if you do things more like this instead ?" or "have you seen how this person did something similar?", instead of just saying "that looks so ugly".
Grin,Stein
The Wheeling Way I consider myself a very good weatherer, and feel that my work rivals virtually anything that is posted on Model Trains Weathered, but I personally was very put off by some of the regulars over there. There is definately a core group, that includes those that I believe are moderators, that felt compelled to chime in on every thread. One guy in particular thought that he was the apitome of prototypye knowledge and weatherering and would make commentary on the most trivial of omissions or errors. I believe my work is superior to this particular individuals, but I never wanted to give him the satisfaction of critiquing my work, without knowing my modeling intentions. Many of the regulars are primarily interested in maintaining their status within the forum, and they achieve this by being the self appointed police and critics of the forum. The real turn off was the core group who thought their techniques were being ripped off by potential Ebay marketers. Essentially the core group wants to maintain their superior position within the custom weathering market on ebay. I respect the work of some the regulars over their, but they definitely want to be the judge and jury for weathered model trains. I won't name names but I'm sure Rich knows who the most annoying and offensive members are .
I consider myself a very good weatherer, and feel that my work rivals virtually anything that is posted on Model Trains Weathered, but I personally was very put off by some of the regulars over there. There is definately a core group, that includes those that I believe are moderators, that felt compelled to chime in on every thread. One guy in particular thought that he was the apitome of prototypye knowledge and weatherering and would make commentary on the most trivial of omissions or errors. I believe my work is superior to this particular individuals, but I never wanted to give him the satisfaction of critiquing my work, without knowing my modeling intentions. Many of the regulars are primarily interested in maintaining their status within the forum, and they achieve this by being the self appointed police and critics of the forum. The real turn off was the core group who thought their techniques were being ripped off by potential Ebay marketers. Essentially the core group wants to maintain their superior position within the custom weathering market on ebay. I respect the work of some the regulars over their, but they definitely want to be the judge and jury for weathered model trains. I won't name names but I'm sure Rich knows who the most annoying and offensive members are .
Agreed.
I loved going over there to check things out but always felt like a definite outsider.
Fees or no fees, that's Rich's call and I truly wish him the best of luck and hopefully it works.
I think it will be even more like an exclusive club now and I suspect those in the future that are thinking of joining might be even more intimidated and less apt to jump in to receive their "constructive criticism."
For me, I'll continue to hang out here with this wildy diverse group of characters.
San Dimas Southern slideshow
The Wheeling WayI consider myself a very good weatherer, and feel that my work rivals virtually anything that is posted on Model Trains Weathered, but I personally was very put off by some of the regulars over there. There is definately a core group, that includes those that I believe are moderators, that felt compelled to chime in on every thread. One guy in particular thought that he was the apitome of prototypye knowledge and weatherering and would make commentary on the most trivial of omissions or errors. I believe my work is superior to this particular individuals, but I never wanted to give him the satisfaction of critiquing my work, without knowing my modeling intentions. Many of the regulars are primarily interested in maintaining their status within the forum, and they achieve this by being the self appointed police and critics of the forum. The real turn off was the core group who thought their techniques were being ripped off by potential Ebay marketers. Essentially the core group wants to maintain their superior position within the custom weathering market on ebay. I respect the work of some the regulars over their, but they definitely want to be the judge and jury for weathered model trains. I won't name names but I'm sure Rich knows who the most annoying and offensive members are .
I really don't think you know what you're talking about when you speak about the core group. In "the core group", there are only two (2) eBayers.
When you have a forum called MTW, it's going to cover the subject, like it or not. If it was called "The Average Train Modeling Forum", you might have a point., but it isn't, we strive for a real weathering perspective even in our fantasy section, anything less is average. We just don't have an attitude like yours and can give and take criticism and learn from getting another perspective.
Good luck with your site. I'm a big proponent of weathering, and probably would have contributed if I knew about the site before yesterday. But I'm not about to pay $20 when there are so many other places to pursue research, and learn modeling technique without a fee. I'd rather face Google ads than pay dollars. Have fun.
Hey everyone, Rich Divizio here, aka the Owner of modeltrainweathered.com
It all started 6 years ago when I created the mtw site. I created it because I felt there was aneed to have a place where people could go and discuss "The Art of Weathering"Since weathering can be Military model related or Arts & Craft related, I just figured I'd call itmodeltrainsweathered. If you know me, you'll know that I don't give *** about Quantity ofanything, meaning, how many Members can I get. I don't care that after 6 years I only havearound 1800 Users, I always cared about the Quality, not Quantity. So the site grew,then grew some more, all over the world in fact because I was tapping into a Niche that otherswere not, and to tell ya the truth, there are still modelers out there that stick their nose up atseeing rolling stock get dirty. Overs the years though, they started to come, more and more,and before you knew it, everyone knew us. I received an email the other day about why can'tI just keep the site free and get Advertising to keep up the cost of running it like Joe Fugate does with Model Railroad Hobbiest, well because Joe's site, and even TRAINS.com cover the whole range of the hobby, so companies will be able to reach the whole variety of model railroaders, from the kits, to the paints, to the models, the trackwork, trees, etc.I tried the Ad campaign thing and because we are a Niche site, many people don't want to advertise. Sure, I may get someone who wants to put an Ad, but it's usually where we agree that my Ad is on their site. So it's even. $20 a year, that's really nothing for what you will get out of being a member on my site.It's a little over 5 cents a day for 365 days worth of ever changing information and basically6 years worth of back information to dive into.I know times are tough for many right now, so as far as a Subscription Fee, I wanted to keep the price fair.So far, the response has been great! and mostly the ones that don't like it, have been ZERO posters over the last 6 Years. They have never contributed anything in 6 Years. But then on the flipside, maybe your just someone that has never posted anything in 6 years, but you have told others about the site, which is great promotion for mtw, so I thank you there. And another thing, is that there are many of you that are emailing me saying that $20 is too low because this place is a GOLDMINE of information, and it has helped them over the years. So go figure, $20 a Year is a Fair Deal. I don't think people think about my TIME, my MONEY, my GRAPHIC DESIGN time, LAYOUT and feel of the site, how it will flow, keeping the bad elements out, giving people a place to Showcase their work so that they can actually use that as a Springboard to making money for themselves, by getting Commision work, which in 6 years I've never wanted any kind of dime for that. You can Network here. You can Learn here. You can Grow here.Another thing too, some have said, why don't I just try Donations.Been there, Done that. Out of 1800 Users I probably received 6 donations.So, I tried the Ads, the Donations, and now we shall see.
Thanks to everyone that has been supportive.Rich Diviziomodeltrainsweathered.commtw
Stein - You make some very good points.
Since the site went 'private', the quality of the posters did improve a noticeable bit and I agree that the quality should become more refined for those who choose to stay.
The members from here who have complained about their treatment missed the part about being able to take constructive criticism. There are plenty of 'atta boy' comments there too, but it's when a model knocks your socks off and not because someone was fishing for compliments on an item that clearly wasn't even close to prototype.
A higher level of modeling demands a higher level of study and pushing your own personal skill level at what you enjoy doing most. For a few of the contributing members there, weathering is their passion, others it's diorama building and vehicles, but it is called Model Trains Weathered for a reason.
The core group that Rich started with were eBayer's who were making outstanding weathered items, some which reached astounding levels of realism and the monetary rewards that went with it. Now when you look at eBay's selections under 'Custom Weathered', it seems like anyone with a spray can and some powders can ask outrageous prices, and astoundingly get them!
Only two or three contributors there sell on eBay, some do commission work and some for their own layouts. Everyone who contributes however takes time to share techniques and give constructive criticism.
Sometimes personality clashes occur, we are human.
How successful Rich's pay scheme works out is yet to be seen. He owns the site and makes these decisions. There really is no advertising revenue per se, it's all been on his shoulders.
The core membership is very solid and will continue to provide it's unique content.
Jerry - MTW moderator
Very good Stein, I hadn't looked at it that way. You may be very close to the thoughts of the site owners. I'm sure there are quite a few people who "gawk" and not contribute in any way and they are not worried about losing non participants. No faulty thinking there. By charging a fee they are only going to get the serious ones who will want to get something for their money and are serious weatherers. MTW may or may not be an elite forum, that is up to a persons personal feelings, but by having a fee they are at least making it a private club. And that is their right. There are many private clubs around and no one has any heartburn about them so as far as I'm concerned they can have their private club too.
Everyones spending is based on what they want. I watch sports sometimes but I don't feel the need to pay to have a sports package channel no matter how many Ranger games they show. Some people think it's the greatest deal on earth. To each their own.
Personally I truly believe I can attain a higher level of weathering ability by asking the fantastic people on this forum for help, than I ever intended to when I started. There are some very talented artists here and it shows every week in WPF at the least. Maybe someday I may change my mind you never know but for now, I wish them luck, I really do. Enjoy the Forum but don't look for me. Maybe it's because I don't feel good enough, maybe it's because my personality needs a bit of good with the bad, or I can only take being poked with a small stick and not the entire tree. Who knows. I doubt that my absence will be an issue..
GraffenOne question: If you were a writer for a magazine, would you accept that the publisher wanted you to pay for the "privilege" to share your knowledge?
One question: If you were a writer for a magazine, would you accept that the publisher wanted you to pay for the "privilege" to share your knowledge?
You are seemingly making the assumption that the people who bellyache the most about having to pay a yearly membership fee for MTW also are people who actually would have made the most valuable contributions to MTW.
That losing the contributions from these people would make MTW have less value for it's other members.
I am not so sure that this is the case. I think that the first people MTW will lose is the ones for which weathering is not all that important. Because if it had been extremely important to them, they would somehow have found $20 to pay for a yearly membership.
So what do you get at MTW ? Fewer posts, very likely. But not necessarily a great decline in the quality of posts made. Perhaps even an improved signal-to-noise ratio - something which could quite possibly even enhance the value of the content for the group's remaining members.
Plus (possibly) less work for the owner administering the group and dealing with misbehaving users.
Introducing a membership fee for the forum is quite a gamble for the owner.
It may make business sense, but it may also be a very dumb move. Hard to say in advance how valuable it will be for the core people who have been posting at MTW to keep their guruhood status at MTW, and how valuable it will be for people who have been reading MTW to be able to continue reading MTW.
Time will tell.
Smile, Stein