At Your LHS, Are You a List or an Impulse Shopper?

[BRAKIE]

 CNJ,Those Athearn cars of which you speak came at various prices that range from $3.50-$5.00.

Today these same kits has a $7.25-$9.25-the price doubled  on some cars...

That's a sufficient price increase over the last 20 years.

Of course everything else has gone up to over those last 20 years.

Of course all the former  BB kit engines that now comes RTR has doubled in price with their upgrades-excluding the old F7 of course..

 

 

 

[blownout cylinder]

Just to toss another one into the ring, how about the "buy it now or regret it later" scenario? What with all the limited runs and the attention on GIANT locomotives and such----we all may become precarious impulse buyers of one sort or another------

There. That should finish this thread off-----

[IRONROOSTER]

blownout cylinder

Just to toss another one into the ring, how about the "buy it now or regret it later" scenario? What with all the limited runs and the attention on GIANT locomotives and such----we all may become precarious impulse buyers of one sort or another------

There. That should finish this thread off-----

 

Well it can lead to that.  That's why having an established theme and era for the railroad can help limit you to what fits. 

OTOH this is a hobby so why not run that cab forward on your NYC line from time to time.

As long as your hobby spending doesn't adversely affect your life or those who depend on you, I'm not sure it matters whether you buy strictly from a plan, strictly from whimsy, or somewhere in between.

 I don't see why we can't keep this thread going another 8 pages or so.

Enjoy

Paul

[Fox14120]

 So far a research shopper. Just starting out and seeing whats out there by which companies and making a list and hoping stores have some of this stuff. Not many stores in my area and most are a hike out to.  Still not comfortable shopping online yet haven't seen enough in person to know what i'm getting.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

blownout cylinder

Just to toss another one into the ring, how about the "buy it now or regret it later" scenario? What with all the limited runs and the attention on GIANT locomotives and such----we all may become precarious impulse buyers of one sort or another------

There. That should finish this thread off-----

Well, I have bought a piece or two in 40 years, thinking I would kitbash this, or modifiy that, then decided the project was not as economicly or fuctionally sound as first thought. Such items where easily liquidated at swap meets or on Ebay with the proceeds going directly toward the next project on the list.

Sheldon

[twhite]

Well, just to prove my point about being an Impulse shopper with a List, I went into Railroad Hobbies in Roseville the other day to pick up some ready-made background trees for my Tahoe National Forest re-planting program. 

Got the trees.  I ALSO walked out of there with a Walthers Rio Grande caboose (Platinum Line with all of those gawd-awful little hand-grabs pre-installed)--AND a Proto 2000 Rio Grande L-107 2-8-8-2, #3508.  Yah, they just HAPPENED to be there!   Loco runs like a charm, hauls like a mule (unusual for Proto steam, IMO), but I had to do Major Surgery on the Walthers caboose to get the trucks to swivel on anything less than a 42" radius (do they TEST run these things before they mass produce them?). 

So--IMPULSE strikes again.  I'll never learn, by golly. 

Tom

[aloco]

Making a list is useless unless I know for sure that the hobby shop has the items I want in stock.

I'm an impulse buyer, but when I buy locos and cars I confine my purchases to the eras I model.  If it's N scale, nothing later than mid-1950s.  If it's HO scale, nothing later than mid-1970s.  And I try to restrict my purchases to the railways I model: CN and GN in N scale and CN and CP in HO scale.  I'll buy some stuff in foreign road names too, but I won't go hog wild.  

[SteamFreak]

Medina1128

If I wasn't, I wouldn't  have 25 locomotives..

 

Only 25? 

I'm definitely a list buyer at the LHS. It's that danged eBay that's the problem... 

[blownout cylinder]

SteamFreak

Medina1128

If I wasn't, I wouldn't  have 25 locomotives..

 

Only 25? 

I'm definitely a list buyer at the LHS. It's that danged eBay that's the problem... 

And I'm sitting at 74 with 2 more coming in----

[jwhitten]

blownout cylinder

SteamFreak

Medina1128

If I wasn't, I wouldn't  have 25 locomotives..

 

Only 25? 

I'm definitely a list buyer at the LHS. It's that danged eBay that's the problem... 

And I'm sitting at 74 with 2 more coming in----

 

I'm at a shade under 200 with a few more coming soon... 

[Paul3]

Excuse me for coming into this thread late, but I had a recent post over on the Atlas forum that involved digging up Athearn prices over the years from www.hoseeker.net (a website that has old catalogs from years gone by). 

For comparison to today's prices, I'm using http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm 

The model I've chosen is the Athearn 40' AAR boxcar because of the long production life and current availability.  All prices are MSRP.

Prices from old Athearn Catalogs -
1948: $2.75 or $2.95 kit (metal sides)
1953: $2.50 or $2.95 kit (metal sides)
1954: $2.50 or $2.95 kit (metal sides)
1957: $1.29 kit, $1.98 RTR (current plastic construction)
1958: $1.29 or $1.49 kit, $1.98 or $2.25 RTR
1959: $1.98 or $2.25 (I'm assuming RTR)
1960: $1.98 or $2.25 (I'm assuming RTR)
1961: $1.98 or $2.25 (I'm assuming RTR)
1962: $1.49 or $1.69 kit, $1.98 or $2.25 RTR
1971: $1.98 kit
1974: $1.98 kit
1975: $1.98 kit
1981: $2.85 kit
1988: $3.50 kit
1991: $4.00 kit

Unfortunately, that's all the website has for old Athearn catalogs.  However, there is the internet archive site, the Wayback Machine (http://web.archive.org), which lists old Athearn website captures (among thousands of others).  This website has the following prices:

1998: $5.75 kit
2000: $5.75 kit
2003: $5.75 kit
2004: $7.25 kit
2005: $7.25 kit, $13.98 RTR
2007: $7.25 kit, $13.98 RTR

Or, in 2009 dollars:
1948: $24.61 or $26.40 kit (metal sides)
1953: $20.20 or $23.83 kit (metal sides)
1954: $20.05 or $23.65 kit (metal sides)
1957: $9.90 kit, $15.20 RTR (current plastic construction)
1958: $9.63 or $11.12 kit, $14.78 or $16.79 RTR
1959: $14.68-$14.28 or $16.68-$16.23 (I'm assuming RTR)
1960: $14.68-$14.28 or $16.68-$16.23 (I'm assuming RTR)
1961: $14.68-$14.28 or $16.68-$16.23 (I'm assuming RTR)
1962: $10.64 or $12.07 kit, $14.14 or $16.07 RTR
1971: $10.54 kit
1974: $8.64 kit
1975: $7.94 kit
1981: $6.76 kit
1988: $6.38 kit
1991: $6.33 kit
1998: $7.61 kit
2000: $7.20 kit
2003: $6.74 kit
2004: $8.28 kit
2005: $8.01 kit, $15.44 RTR
2007: $7.54 kit, $14.54 RTR

Today from Horizon's Website -
2009: $7.75 kit or $14.98 RTR

So if folks want to argue prices, at least now there are some legit MSRP's to argue over. 

Since I'm on the subject, I thought I'd dig up minimum wage figures for the years I've called out for Athearn 40' AAR boxcars. The first minimum wage act of 1938 only applied to interstate commerce jobs. It took until 1961 before it applied to retailers, gas stations, et al, and by 1966 it was pretty much universal.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/chart.htm

Minimum wage per hour for interstate commerce jobs only -
1948: $0.40
1953: $0.75
1954: $0.75
1957: $1.00
1958: $1.00
1959: $1.00
1960: $1.00

Minimum wage per hour for large retailers, construction, gas stations, etc. -
1961: $1.00
1962: $1.00
1971: $1.60
1974: $2.00
1975: $2.10

Minimum wage per hour for just about everyone else, non-farm -
1971: $1.60
1974: $1.90
1975: $2.00

Minimum wage per hour for all covered, non-exempt workers -
1981: $3.35
1988: $3.35
1991: $4.25
1998: $5.15
2000: $5.15
2003: $5.15
2004: $5.15
2005: $5.15
2007: $5.85
2009: $7.25

To bring the facts together, a minimum wage worker would have to work a minimum of X amount of hours of labor to earn enough money to buy the least expensive Athearn 40' AAR boxcar, where X =

1948: 6.88 hours
1953: 3.33 hours
1954: 3.33 hours
1957: 1.29 hours
1958: 1.29 hours
1959: 1.89 hours
1960: 1.89 hours
1961: 1.89 hours
1962: 1.49 hours
1971: 1.24 hours
1974: 0.99 hours
1975: 0.94 hours
1981: 0.85 hours
1988: 1.04 hours
1991: 0.94 hours
1998: 1.12 hours
2000: 1.12 hours
2003: 1.12 hours
2004: 1.41 hours
2005: 1.41 hours
2007: 1.24 hours
2009: 1.07 hours

IMHO, the idea behind the "I don't have as much to spend on the hobby as I used to" is that people are spending their potential hobby dollars on things that just didn't exist back in the day: PC's, internet access, cell phones, etc.  All the goodies of modern life all cut into the hobby budget. 

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

[BRAKIE]

Paul,Don't forget there was thousands of high paying Union jobs back then as well as thousands of office jobs.

 Very few worked for minimum wage back then.

[blownout cylinder]

Paul3

IMHO, the idea behind the "I don't have as much to spend on the hobby as I used to" is that people are spending their potention hobby dollars on things that just didn't exist back in the day: PC's, internet access, cell phones, etc.  All the goodies of modern life all cut into the hobby budget. 

Also we see that the idea of saving was more important back then than now. That is also where a lot of our discretionary income may, in fact, be coming from. We are seeing a modest increase in the savings rate---let us see what that does to the discretionary income in the next little while

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Paul,

Thank you for that exhaustive research, which deminstates way beyond my claims, the point I was making.

See, we do agree on a few things.

Sheldon

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

BRAKIE

Paul,Don't forget there was thousands of high paying Union jobs back then as well as thousands of office jobs.

 Very few worked for minimum wage back then.

Larry,

First of all, not everybody had those "high paying union jobs", I know I didn't. Neither did my father. My mother stayed home and rasied three children.

The overall economic conditions between 1945 and now is a topic that will get this thread locked or deleted if we pursue it. And I will repeate my view that it is not relevent because market forces have kept hobby prices low, in fact made them lower. Other "problems" are just that, outside factors.

As I pointed out before, in the 80's, when you felt the hobby was so "afordable", I was rasing children, buying furniture, starting a business (not collecting some high salery or hourly wage), I could aford very little in the way of model trains.

Before that in the 70's, I was single, lived with my parents, worked, and had lots of money for trains.

Now I am semi-retired, manage my real estate holdings, work about 25 hours a week at a vocation I love, my house, cars and investment properties are paid for, my kids are grown and gone and I have plenty of money to spend on trains.

And they seem reasonable enough to me in price. And like Paul and I both suggested, many people today "must" have a bunch of stuff they did just fine without before.

I don't have an Ipod, my cell phone does not take pictures, or have a keyboard, or web service. I drive a Ford (a brand new one), not a BMW, my work truck is 10 years old and running fine. My kitchen counters are not granite, and the appliances are not stainless steel (but they are brand new),

Today taxation, as a percentage of income, is twice what it was in 1960, that might be where your money went.

Nobody owes anybody a "high paying union job" in this life. Maybe if some things had been done differently by unions, industry and government 40 years ago, the production of everything would not be in China, Mexico or where ever. I will leave the "politics of economics and taxes" at two more thoughts, read Adam Smith's  - Wealth of Nations, written 1776,

and,

The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings,

The universal blessing of socialism is the equal distribution of the misery.

Winston Churchill

 

But what do I know, I'm just a hick with a pickup, a gun, and a few model trains.

Sheldon 

  

[wjstix]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Today taxation, as a percentage of income, is twice what it was in 1960, that might be where your money went.

IIRC in 1960 the top federal tax rate was 90%. Currently it's 35%, and would only affect people making over $350,000 per year. We shouldn't be in a "Rush" to believe everything we hear on talk radio...

[IRONROOSTER]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

...

The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings,

The universal blessing of socialism is the equal distribution of the misery.

Winston Churchhill

 

Lately the misery out weighs the blessings.

But I think the real problem is that overall wages have been largely stagnated over the last few years while prices have gone up. So that the hobby (and everything else) has cost a larger percent of income.  Of course individual situations vary - if you or your spouse lost a job then income is way down.  Likewise if you got a big promotion income is way up.  But for many there just hasn't been much change in income.  But prices have been creeping up. An aside notice how gas prices are back up to $2.58 a gallon (Northern Va.) but no huge outcry, we're getting used to them. So our recent experience is the hobby costs more.  While it's fun to compare prices to 1947 or 1956 that has no meaning for us.  It's how they compare to last year and 5 years ago and how our income compares to last year and 5 years ago.

Getting back to the original topic, I suspect that many (but not all) of us are reining in our purchases - either buying from shorter lists or capping total expenditures if impulse buying. 

Enjoy

Paul

 

[BRAKIE]

Sheldon said:As I pointed out before, in the 80's, when you felt the hobby was so "afordable", I was rasing children, buying furniture, starting a business (not collecting some high salery or hourly wage), I could aford very little in the way of model trains.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Well,in the 80s I had 2 teenage kids..Thank goodness I was gainfully employed as a brakeman that is until '85...

------------------------------------------------------------

my work truck is 10 years old and running fine.

-----------------------------------------------------------

My Le Sabre is 14 years old and is still in good condition even tho' its in the garage getting a new(and more then likely unneeded) sensor.

I suppose I been fortunate as I have had several high paying blue collar jobs including 9 1/2 years as a brakeman..Now I am medically retired and still doing fairly well.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

wjstix

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Today taxation, as a percentage of income, is twice what it was in 1960, that might be where your money went.

IIRC in 1960 the top federal tax rate was 90%. Currently it's 35%, and would only affect people making over $350,000 per year. We shouldn't be in a "Rush" to believe everything we hear on talk radio...

We are taxed in more ways than just the income tax, and comparing all government spending to GDP, even allowing for growing deficits, then and now, directly or indirectly, we pay twice as much.

You may think we should be "paying" for all these things, personally I do not. But again, this is not the proper forum for that part of this discussion.

Personally I don't listen to nuts on either side.

Sheldon

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

IRONROOSTER

Lately the misery out weighs the blessings.

Could be Churchill was right as to the cause of the current misery.

Sheldon

[CNJ831]

Although I had indicated that I would not be posting to this thread again, the item pricing that Paul cited in his long intercomparison of pricing is so misleading I feel compelled to indicate some real numbers so that readers can gain a more honest appreciation of the situation.

Regarding that Athearn 40' box car and getting very specific, Standard Hobby Supply's 1987 MR ad listed them at $1.95 along with several other dealers in the pages of MR. Train World had them for $2.25 . Unfortunately, SHS does not appear to sell individual 40' cars today but they do list them at $67.59 for a six-pack, implying that individually they would be more than $11.26 each today. Even accepting Paul's $7.25 at face value the increase is over 3x what it was in 1987.

A better comparison are Athearn's locomotives. The same retailer gives the price of the SD40-2 as $22.99 in '87. They currently sell it for $69.99 . The GP38-2 went for 18.99 back then and in 2009 is $49.99. A GP50 was $18.99 and today is $55.99 . And if you were willing to accept substitute road names if they were out of the one you wanted, you could get a further $3.00 knocked off these prices back in '87. At the same time, Train World had each loco mentioned  for $2.00 less than that listed above. Keep in mind that the inflation correction 1987 to 2009 should only be 1.9x.

All the above figures indicate at least a three-fold increase and need I mention the fact that average person's wages have not kept pace with inflation for some years now (how many news surveys have we read where folks today feel that they are less well off than their parents were?). The rise in the prices of steam locomotives has often been far more extreme (except maybe for Bowser).

Far more disturbing is that if you check around, you find that retailers are progressively phasing out the older, lower-priced models, carrying instead only the high-end examples that in some cases can be 6 to 8 times more expensive than similar 1987 cars and loco. Athearn keeps claiming it's going to keep producing inexpensive kits "as long as there is demand" but you can find them in very few brick and mortar hobby shops today. Think about the cost of the hobby once this entry-level priced stuff is gone for good.

CNJ831

[jwhitten]

CNJ831

but you can find them in very few brick and mortar hobby shops today. Think about the cost of the hobby once this entry-level priced stuff is gone for good.

CNJ831

 

 

Actually your post made me think of another point-- let's assume the folks who say inflation accounts for the difference, just for the sake of the discussion-- 

So with everything being "adjusted for inflation" and whatnot, we're supposedly bringing home a comparable income, with comparable "disposable" money, for items that cost comparably the same amount, etc. -- let's just accept that at face value--

If everything is the same-same, why is it hobby shops (and lots of other shops) are going out of business left and right? Why are we always going on about the demise of the local hobby shop?

Sure some of it has gotta be competition with the Internet, so that would account for some of it. But its hard to believe, if people supposedly have about the same amount of disposable income, that all of them are shopping online and none of that money is "burning a hole in their pockets" whilst browsing at the local hobby shop. Or at the train shows. Or even online on ebay for that matter. The prices for this stuff keep going up and up and up. And even though there are deals to be had for sure-- and I know that first hand-- as far as retail prices go, they seem to be travelling north far faster than my willingness to part with hard-earned money.

 

 

 

[Paul3]

Sorry, CNJ, but there is nothing misleading in my factual posting (how is simply posting facts misleading?).  Those are actual MSRP prices for the same product for the past 50+ years, especially after the 1957 introducton of the plastic 40' AAR boxcar.  If you don't like it, tell it to Athearn...they printed and priced those catalogs, not me.

I don't use sale prices because they vary so wildly.  Anyone can claim any price they wanted to because some business was closing that was blowing out stock, or that they were a basement bomber that had no overhead, etc.  MSRP is the level playing field on which everything is based.  It's a constant.  Ads in MR's are not. 

Just how many people mail ordered back then vs. their local, non-discount hobby shop of yesterday?  If you can tell me that no one paid MSRP during the 1980's, then I'll buy your argument.  But you can't.  So MSRP will have to do.

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

jwhitten

If everything is the same-same, why is it hobby shops (and lots of other shops) are going out of business left and right? Why are we always going on about the demise of the local hobby shop?

In another recent thread about the price of things in this hobby I posted the following:

grizlump is right,

The pricing is a joke and manufacturers/importers are only hurting them selves.

As he said (I will use the $400 loco in my example)

In the old days - here in the USA:

Price from MFR to Distributor - $160.00

Distributor to Retailer -  $240.00 (price not doubled aT this level or any level)

MSRP to retail customer - $400.00 (lowest discount likely to be 15% or sale price of $340.00)

Gross profit at MSRP - $160.00, gross profit at 15% off - $100.00 (not really enough to stay in business, but if this is only offered on big ticket items and general volume is good, it may be OK.

Than big dealers started to cut out Distributor and lower prices - new model:

Price from MFR direct to Retailer (same as before, MFR does not care who as long as he sells them in case lots) - $160.00

Retailer to customer, discounted 20% - $320.00

Gross profit at 20% discount - $160.00 - WOW that was magic, sell it at 20% off and make the same as the smaller guy who wanted full MSRP.

THIS WAS ALL GOING ON BEFORE ANY SIGNIFICANT CHINA PRODUCTION. And, "basement" dealers with low/no overhead where willing to give even bigger discounts, 30%, 40% off MSRP.

It should be noted that the few lines made in China at that time gave no clue as to their production cost other than to have lower retail prices (it was of course on cheap train set stuff). Their wholesale/MSRP discount structure was the same as American production companies.

Than along comes Bachmann Spectrum and Life Like Proto2000 - Obviously they set retails based on American production to see what the market would bear and give the indication to consumers that the product was of high quality, not the same as their "train set" products.

At first discounts where the same, then, possibly to share the wealth with dealers and boost volume to support even lower production costs, and/or to turn the money over faster, they lowered their prices to the wholesale/dealer network.

This allowed the dealers already buying direct from them, and already discounting 20%, to discount these products even lower, keeping their prices on these products still lower than other retailers.

Greed at many wholesale companies kept them selling these products wholesale to Mom & Pop shops at the old 40% off MSRP, driving may of them right out of business and draging the wholesalers down with them. The big boys didn't need the wholesalers, they buy direct.

Walthers, who started with manufacturing, shifted to both manufacturing and distributing, was at that time big on the distributor side. I think not so much any more, see above.

Walthers (and others) move into China production, re-evaluate distribution model and focus on importing to replace both in house manufacturing and distributing, buys Proto 2000 and limits discounting to new 50-55%? model.

Athearn cuts out middle men with Horizion ownership, solving price dispairity and basement dealer problems, goes to 50-55% discount to all retail outlets big and small and is going strong.

Bachmann continues selling direct to anyone with enough money at 60-70%? level (Proto must have been near this level as well before the Walthers buy out), knowing this creates street price at 35-50% off MSRP. BUT pricing is consistant - NO DUMPING, only problem low overhead dealers with low "everyday" prices on Ebay and at shows.

Then along comes BLI/PCM who are obviously under capitalized. At first they go for the big profit, selling direct to dealers at 40-45% off MSRP. volume and sales don't cover production cost, too much product sitting, no working capital to let it sit and sell when next wave of modelers want it, so prices are slashed to move it out and pay for the next container load.

So, MSRP is now offically a joke, others may have wounded it, but BLI/PCM backed over him with the bus repeatedly.

So it really is just like my Daddy said, "the price of anything is only determined by how bad you want it, and how bad the other guy wants to be rid of it".

In the old days inventory was seen as money in the bank, products changed slowly, old products remained in production (maybe slow, batch production) for decades. An Athearn F7 would sell no matter what, why would you give it away unless you where "going out of business"?

Not so today, and we see the results. The hope is that some how this will right itself so someone is still in business to make the stuff we want. That's the part most modelers don't get, if there is no profit, there will be no product.

Sheldon

 

This clearly explains why small retailers are out and big ones/mail order/internet is in. And it explains part of why stuff is actually cheaper today. By the time most products reach most modelers, there is 20% LESS profit made by ANYONE in the chain of supply than in 1960 or 1970. And somehow many modelers still think prices are artificiality high. I think not.

Truth is, if you are running a small retail shop, you NEED a 35-40% gRoss profit and a good volume to make money, or at least stay in business. Even with the new distribution model with 50-55% off MSRP, the pressure from discount outlets means small shops have to discount, putting them right back at barely making 35%. It's a tough business to make a living in. 

Sheldon

 

[Paul3]

CNJ,
BTW, those 6-packs you were talking about are for RTR's.  Do you think that's fair to compare kit prices from 20 years ago to RTR prices of today, especially when kits are still available at Horizon's website?  Can we please try to keep like-to-like for comparison's sake?  (and you think I'm being misleading?)

You also compared yesterday's discount mail order prices to today's full MSRP, which is another misleading claim.  In 1988, 40' AAR boxcar kits were $3.50 MSRP.  Today, they are $7.75.  That's 2.2 times the cost, not "over 3x".  Where is the mail order discount price for today's Athearn car kits?  Why don't you mention that?

If you want to throw inflation into it, those 1988 kits would cost $6.38 in 2009 dollars.  For the $1.37 difference, you get better couplers (not much, but still better than X2F's), and much better paint jobs.  Is it worth it?  Maybe, maybe not.  But it's not "over 3x" the cost like you claim.

Another thing I thought of was shipping and handling costs.  How much does that add to the mail order cost to get one single Athearn 40' AAR boxcar?

I have no problem with any retail shop stuffing their shelves with only higher priced items, as long as it pays that bills.  That's capitalism.  This isn't a charity.  If folks don't like it, they can open a retail shop and sell nothing but the least expensive items in the hobby.  If they make it, bully for them...but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

jwhitten,
The reasons why shops close are vast.  Maybe the owner retired.  Maybe he was a jerk and his customers fled.  Maybe his prices were too high.  Maybe the rent went from "ouch" to "boing".  Maybe folks are ordering online.  Maybe the price of gas keeps people from driving.  Maybe the owner lost his real job and couldn't support the hobby shop that he ran at a loss for years. 

IOW, there is no one reason why hobby shops close.

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

And, if you want to see how cheaply it can be done, you can re-read about everyones bargins.

http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/thread/1711553.aspx

Sheldon

[citylimits]

IRONROOSTER

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

...

The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings,

The universal blessing of socialism is the equal distribution of the misery.

Winston Churchhill

 

Lately the misery out weighs the blessings.

......... So our recent experience is the hobby costs more.  While it's fun to compare prices to 1947 or 1956 that has no meaning for us.  It's how they compare to last year and 5 years ago and how our income compares to last year and 5 years ago.

Getting back to the original topic, I suspect that many (but not all) of us are reining in our purchases - either buying from shorter lists or capping total expenditures if impulse buying. 

Enjoy

Paul

Remember when quoting Churchill it is important to recognise the context in which his pronouncments were made.

This often quoted piece of glib Churchillian blather was current at the time of the post WWII elections when the British Conservitives were facing an election against Clement Atlee's Labour party.

British voters at the time were looking for some kind of release from the harsh privations of war and were hoping to have some of that pain eased by the policies of a left wing leaning government destined to replace the possibility of continued austerity offered at the time by the governing British Conservitive (Tory) party. Whether in the long term the Brits got what they wanted is of course another thing.

Not wanting to ever get into another one of those pointless debates as to whether consumer goods were in reality cheaper in 1947 than they are today, I can only say this in response: models may have been more expensive in relitive terms then but, are they more affordable now?

Bruce (from the far left of Carl Marx - no wait, make that Groucho Marx)

[BRAKIE]

Just how many people mail ordered back then vs. their local, non-discount hobby shop of yesterday?  If you can tell me that no one paid MSRP during the 1980's, then I'll buy your argument.  But you can't.  So MSRP will have to do.

Paul

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Indeed..I did 90% of my shopping at hobby shops(some shops offered 10% discount) and the other 10% was done at train shows,mail order shops and I also bought used equipment.

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Paul said:Another thing I thought of was shipping and handling costs.  How much does that add to the mail order cost to get one single Athearn 40' AAR boxcar?
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It would actually cost more so one was incline to order more to help off set the shipping costs.

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Paul:You also compared yesterday's discount mail order prices to today's full MSRP, which is another misleading claim.  In 1988, 40' AAR boxcar kits were $3.50 MSRP.  Today, they are $7.75.  That's 2.2 times the cost, not "over 3x".  Where is the mail order discount price for today's Athearn car kits?  Why don't you mention that?

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Most interesting question..

A 40 foot boxcar will cost $6.29

 http://www.firsthobby.com/store1/Product.asp?ProductID=ATH5001&SN=2009080709462379

Or it can cost you $5.42

http://www.1stplacehobbies.com/cgi-bin/prod.asp?pn=140-5001

 

All depending on where you shop..

BTW..That $5.42 40' boxcars is 8 cents cheaper then what I paid for the same car about 7(?) years ago-the car sold for $5.50

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Guys,One can still build a ISL or 4x8 footer for less then $1000.00 by sticking with the basic and shopping wisely.

[CNJ831]

Paul, do you honestly believe that regularly paying MSRP for your hobby supplies all these years is the standard among hobbyists? In a lifetime of association with the HO hobby I can't ever remember a time when my only choice was to pay full MSRP. That didn't appear until the rise of panic buying set in among some hobbyists the past few years. Hobbyshops, and especially trainshows, plus just about any other purchasing venues I can think of, always offered substantial discounts over catalog figures. Pull that 1987 copy of MR and compare your MSRP Athearn catalog figures then with what items were actually selling for through the retail ads. The difference was typically 1/3 off from just about everybody.

The company I cited as an example for prices in my post, Standard Hobby Supply, was/is no fly-by-night outfit, having been successfully in business for decades and specifically why I cited them. The same is true of Train World and a number of other MR-listed brick & mortar/mailorder companies. These are big, nationally known outfits that tens of thousands of hobbyists have regularly dealt with. To this day, they are recommended countless times for deals on this very forum. There are similar examples in many major metropolitan area. All offer substantial discounts on everything. Full MSRP prices are mythical figures, except perhaps among newbies who haven't yet learned the system but they have become increasingly unrealistic and outrageously excessive in recent years.

Instead of citing only Athearn's old 40' box cars, how about comparing some of the far more saleable items among those I cited as examples. If you wish to do Athearn, how about the diesel locomotives (as bad as they might be) that I listed. Today their selling prices are 50% over the 1987 figures after inflation adjustment and they are long out of date relative to modern standards. This, of course, says nothing about the latest $225-$300+ diesel AB sets and $250-$450+ for individual steam locomotives. Face it, even the tiniest recently issued switchers are commanding upwards of $100 now. Then, too, how about addressing the situation with DPM, Heljan, or California Models structure kits? All have increased 3x to 5x over their 1987 prices, without changing one iota.  

The fact is, none of the current prices honestly compares directly with the situation 20 years ago, or any earlier era for that matter, no matter what stage in life you were at, nor how the numbers are twisted. Save maybe for Rivarossi, such high relative pricing as today's has not existed in the hobby since the first couple of years after WWII...following which, incidentally, quality dramatically increased while general pricing of many of the expensive items declined by up to 50% due to the advance of technology.

That situation was responsible for the HO hobby's original explosion in popularity. Just what do you think the high prices in all aspects of model railroading today are leading to? Certainly not an expansion of the hobby. The manufacturers' apparent reasons for organizing and funding the WGH program pretty much answers that question (have you ever read its stated intent and objectives?).

CNJ831   

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

CNJ831

I can think of, always offered substantial discounts over catalog figures. Pull that 1987 copy of MR and compare your MSRP Athearn catalog figures then with what items were actually selling for through the retail ads. The difference was typically 1/3 off from just about everybody.

The company I cited as an example for prices in my post, Standard Hobby Supply, was/is no fly-by-night outfit, having been successfully in business for decades and specifically why I cited them. The same is true of Train World and a number of other MR-listed brick & mortar/mailorder companies. These are big, nationally known outfits that tens of thousands of hobbyists have regularly dealt with. To this day, they are recommended countless times for deals on this very forum. There are similar examples in many major metropolitan area. All offer substantial discounts on everything. Full MSRP prices are mythical figures, except perhaps among newbies who haven't yet learned the system but they have become increasingly unrealistic and outrageously excessive in recent years.

All of these comments simply ignore my explaination of the wholesale discount structure and change in distribution and marketing of model trains over the last 50-60 years.

The last five or ten years may be all that is relevant to you, I don't konw how old you are. But I have been buying model trains since 1967. And, until the middle 80's discounting was rare and 20% off was about the max at ANY brick and mortar store. And that was only at a few big retailers buying direct. Even mail order was seldom more than 30-35% max.

Yes, Trainworld and Standard Hobby are top notch legit operations, I deal with both quite a bit. And discounting is the order of the day - TODAY. 

Fact still remains, ajusted for inflation, compared to hours worked at similar professions, etc,etc, by any reasonable mathmatical way you look at it, prices today are not unreasonable and are not higher than years past, be it MSRP or street price.

But if you just want to vent your own baseless emotional reactions, I have one for you - I'll never understand the fool who pays $80,000 for a BMW or a Benz. Nothing on rubber tires is worth that kind of money (to me). Or the guy who spends $2000 on a brass loco, but it is his money. 

Small shops are gone because of the need for discounting and larger inventory selection. High turnover marketing has lead to wide price disparities on brands like BLI/PCM. Again, a bad business model in my view that will only hurt the hobby.

But the current "average" prices are not hurting the hobby.

Personally, I don't see much of a change in the last five years. But, I don't buy DCC or sound, or big modern diesels, or brass, or expensive RTR rolling stock so maybe I am out of the loop. Or, I'm still just modeling the way I always have and having fun, actually building things.

I said earlier in this thread, if you are building a basement empire, this has NEVER been an inexpensive hobby. As Larry agreed in his recent post, if you are building a modest layout, costs are within reason.

But ad in wireless DCC, sound, expensive well detailed RTR rolling stock, built up buildings, etc, etc. and it can get expensive in a hurry.

Sheldon