A few of the vehicles shown in the photo in the preceding post are 1/87. For example, the #26 dump truck with GMC tilt cab in the right rear (red cab, aluminum body), the #70 grit spreader truck (light yellow body, dark red cab), and the #44 refrigerator truck (aqua body and red-orange cab). There are several more in 1/87, but most of the models shown are larger, a few smaller.
Robt. LivingstonA few of the vehicles shown in the photo in the preceding post are 1/87. For example, the #26 dump truck with GMC tilt cab in the right rear (red cab, aluminum body), the #70 grit spreader truck (light yellow body, dark red cab), and the #44 refrigerator truck (aqua body and red-orange cab). There are several more in 1/87, but most of the models shown are larger, a few smaller.
I see that and they look plastic to me. I can tell because the detail is finer. Now I think they look alright. But that green metal truck with the roof paint gone and with no windows and axles that stick out a scale 2' just plain looks bad.
DrilineI see that and they look plastic to me
-Morgan
Guys,
Think of this.
Today we have the best detailed locomotives and cars,the best scenery material,the best structures and the best looking figures that has ever been produce..
Why use oversize toy cars?
There is a better solution.
Use the higher quality cars and trucks in the foreground and use the cheaper Bachman cars in the background.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/160-42206
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Flashwave DrilineI see that and they look plastic to me Yes, but so do the HO people
Yes, but so do the HO people
No no. I meant that in a GOOD way. Although I have purchased quite a few of the GH metal casting HO work trailers and bobcat, and I must say they look fantastic after painting and weathering.
I was recently at the Galesburg train show admiring a beautiful HO modular layout that was finely detailed, until I came upon one 4' section built by some bloke that included an earth moving equipment scene. It was littered with Matchbox dump trucks and other equipment and looked waaaayyy out of place and toylike. Ruined the whole layout.
When I had a layout I used matchbox cars whose scale was between 1:80 and 1:95. I also had a few tractor-trailers that I got from dollar general. Turns out they are pretty close to an athearn big rig I have.
I do have a bunch of those $1 ones from wally world, mostly older cars. I did get 4 newer cars, but they were part of 5-packs.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
When I first got into Model Railroading it was back in the early 60s. I first got into H.O. scale it was like in 65 or 66 and there wasnt awhole lot of "Scale" vehicles around. So out came the Matchboxes with the grey plastic wheels. Now some people will throw up to find the older MBs on someones layout,but that was all that we had! Some of the older stuff dont look too bad! Now it just gripes my apple when ya throw a MB Yeasteryear along side a regular Matchbox. There ya will get a size difference. The Yeasteryears were always larger than the regular Matchbox size. Then came the SuperFast wheels into the Regular Matchbox size. I think that the Superfast Matchboxes were brought out in the late 60s to compete with the "New" Hot Wheels.
The Hot Wheels were all pertty close in size in general, but a little bigger than H.O. I find that some of the construction equipment will do until their is a good model out on the market.
But for if it is close to 1:87th scale and that there isnt a model out of it. It probabaly would get used on the layout.
Look at some of the so called "scale" models of vehicles out there on the market! Some will do and others wont! I would take a H.O. scale figure" a good one" and "not a cheap one" to compare it to a car or a truck that I want to use. This is my .02 cents. Lets hear it! Kevin
The only problem that I can see is when the modeler gets home from wally world and rips open the blister pack and plops what very oviously is a toy vehicle on the layout.
By the way the Dodge tow truck on the corner (green and yellow) is very close to HO as is the Ford tow truck.There are also several Chevy trucks on the shelves that are HO or dang close.
Driline
Wow, Driline, it looks like you stole all of the Matchbox cars I played with as a kid! No, wait a minute, I still have mine. A lot of them are not quite so pristine as yours, though. I can identify about 70% of those - it's a little spooky actually. My version of the Italian sports car bottom shelf center front has somehow found its way into my 3-year-old son's Hotwheels pile.
There was an older line of probably stamped-metal cars made by Tootsie Toy, of which I still have a few. I've kept them in my junk box because a number of them look very close to HO scale and could be made quite presentable with a little TLC.
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
Midnight Railroader PathfinderFor those saying "don't do it!", what would be better: a layout with minimal but "proper" scale vehicles or a layout that is populated with vehicles even if they are off a bit? The former. I'll add cars and truck as I can afford them.
PathfinderFor those saying "don't do it!", what would be better: a layout with minimal but "proper" scale vehicles or a layout that is populated with vehicles even if they are off a bit?
The former. I'll add cars and truck as I can afford them.
The area that I model is not so populated with people that I need gazillions of vehicles. On one small townsite--3 cars and one grain truck. On a country road-----nada.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
mononguy63Wow, Driline, it looks like you stole all of the Matchbox cars I played with as a kid! No, wait a minute, I still have mine. A lot of them are not quite so pristine as yours, though. I can identify about 70% of those - it's a little spooky actually. My version of the Italian sports car bottom shelf center front has somehow found its way into my 3-year-old son's Hotwheels pile.
One word. EBAY. My cars that I played with as a kid in the late 60's, early 70's were trashed by the time I was done playing with them in the dirt under the mulberry tree.
I collected all 75 of them from the year 1968 as well as others.
Now, wait - Driline, I have seen two cars I have long been missing ... YOU GOT ´EM!
It´s the ambulance right in the mioddle of the picture and the green little Austin in the lower right of it. Must have been more than 45 years since I got them...
I dont think matchbox or hotwheels have a scale. Its what ever can fit into the box. the smaller cars are definately not 1:87 but some of the large vehicles are very close for example ambulances, trash trucks, tractor trailors and some vans look in the photos below Can you tell which ones are 1:87 and matchbox.
Steve Smith 1:1 Railroad Architect 1:87 Railroad Architect Certified PRR foamer
Visit www.prrnortheastcorridor.com
Movies http://www.youtube.com/user/ac0catenary
Live DCC catenary in Ho scale
Urban/City Modeler
A Real Juice Jack .. IF its not electric Its not running on my layout.
In this entire discussion, not a single scale dimension has been mentioned. Since "scale" is determined by dimensions, not impressions, I guess this discussion will go on forever, around and around in circles, until someone whips out the 1/87 scale ruler, and looks up the actual dimensions of the real cars and trucks chosen by Matchbox.
Robt. Livingston In this entire discussion, not a single scale dimension has been mentioned. Since "scale" is determined by dimensions, not impressions, I guess this discussion will go on forever, around and around in circles, until someone whips out the 1/87 scale ruler, and looks up the actual dimensions of the real cars and trucks chosen by Matchbox.
You better know what the exact prototype dimensions are/were for the vehicles then. Some people don't quite know those either-----get a list made up of what you have/are using and check up on the prototypes----
I just did that with two vehicles a porchse cayman 14' and lincoln navigator 18'. You can get lengths from specification section on new car sites. I actually have three porsche caymen: one by model power 1;87 , one by hotwheels "1:87" and regular hot wheels cayman they are different sizes I need to compare the sizes with a herpa or brawa model. My Theory is that I think that some 1:87 vehicles are not exactly 1:87. We will see what scale the Hot wheels lincoln navigator is?
accatenary just did that with two vehicles a porchse cayman 14' and lincoln navigator 18'. You can get lengths from specification section on new car sites. I actually have three porsche caymen: one by model power 1;87 , one by hotwheels "1:87" and regular hot wheels cayman they are different sizes I need to compare the sizes with a herpa or brawa model. My Theory is that I think that some 1:87 vehicles are not exactly 1:87. We will see what scale the Hot wheels lincoln navigator is?
You're missing the point here. YOu're muddying the waters bringing in matchbox's true 1:87 special collector cars that cost $5 bucks. This discussion was about the Wally World blister pack 99 cent 1/64 scale or whatever it is matchbox cars. AND this discussion was not ONLY about scale but how "toylike" the matchbox cars are compared with true HO scale quality models like wiking, herpa, etc.
accatenary I dont think matchbox or hotwheels have a scale. Its what ever can fit into the box. the smaller cars are definately not 1:87 but some of the large vehicles are very close for example ambulances, trash trucks, tractor trailors and some vans look in the photos below Can you tell which ones are 1:87 and matchbox.
Yes I can for the most part. Your photo is somewhat difficult to see because of the angle, but I would say that that the following vehicles look out of place and need to be thrown off your layout preferrably on a hard cement floor.
1) White garbage truck
2) Black Lincoln Nav behind it.
3) The ambulance
4) Gold ford focus behind the ambulance
The only vehicle I think looks like its correct in scale is the "Boley" Red Box truck. I've purchased some of the 1/87 scale matchbox 5 dollar special collectors edition vehicles and must say they look OK. But again as I stated in my previous post, I think the OP was talking about your standard mill Wally World Matchbox specials in a 99 cent blister pack.
Again, I would rather have 2 $15 dollar great looking (fill in the name....Herpa, Wiking etc.) HO scale cars than 50 toylike oversized matchbox cars anyday. My choice. Obviously your layout, you do what you want, but I personally would be embarrased to showcase such an abomination.
Wow some people take offense to matchbox cars like graffiti on box cars. My point here was that some people just take the manufacturers word on what 1:87 and probably never checked it and that goes for buidlings and autos. I mentioned that I had three versions of the same car two of them 1:87 and one from a wally world 99cent bister pack and they are all different sizes. No supprise for the wally world car but a total suprise for the two 1:87 cars Im not embarassed about matchbox cars on my layout. id be more embarrased with empty streets.
accatenaryWow some people take offense to matchbox cars like graffiti on box cars. My point here was that some people just take the manufacturers word on what 1:87 and probably never checked it and that goes for buidlings and autos. I mentioned that I had three versions of the same car two of them 1:87 and one from a wally world 99cent bister pack and they are all different sizes. No supprise for the wally world car but a total suprise for the two 1:87 cars Im not embarassed about matchbox cars on my layout. id be more embarrased with empty streets.
I may have been a little "rash" about dropping your cars to the pavement, but I was trying to make a point. I think there are two or more different camps out there when it comes to scenery. Those who try to portray "realistic" modeling and those who are into a more fun, or toylike atmosphere. Nothing wrong with either one. Just different ways to display or capture what we are trying to convey. My uncle has a huge Lionel train set set up in his basement. It is a replica of what a young boy might have seen when he was young under the Christmas tree. Bright colors, lots of moving scenery with Lionels motorized "toys" and plenty of operation. I think it looks great and is fun to play with, but its not what I want. I want more of a Pel Soeberg type of layout that is truly prototypical modeling in every way. Ultra realistic. In other words when you take a picture of the layout its hard to tell whether its real or not. My talents are far from that, but thats what I strive for.
Looking at your layout pic, I would have to say that you fall somewhere in the middle there. I really like your skyscraper buildings, but much of the rest of the layout looks more "toylike" especially with the oversize matchbox cars. Again, nothing wrong with that....its what you want....not something that I would want.
After reading through all of these posts, and considering the viewpoints of each and every one of you, I have come to the following conclusion:
Why can't we all just get along?
Modeling whatever I can make out of that stash of kits that takes up half my apartment's spare bedroom.
Bundy74 Why can't we all just get along?
... most of us do, but we all need a little "friction" now and then.
Driline accatenary I dont think matchbox or hotwheels have a scale. Its what ever can fit into the box. the smaller cars are definately not 1:87 but some of the large vehicles are very close for example ambulances, trash trucks, tractor trailors and some vans look in the photos below Can you tell which ones are 1:87 and matchbox. Yes I can for the most part. Your photo is somewhat difficult to see because of the angle, but I would say that that the following vehicles look out of place and need to be thrown off your layout preferrably on a hard cement floor. 1) White garbage truck 2) Black Lincoln Nav behind it. 3) The ambulance 4) Gold ford focus behind the ambulance The only vehicle I think looks like its correct in scale is the "Boley" Red Box truck. I've purchased some of the 1/87 scale matchbox 5 dollar special collectors edition vehicles and must say they look OK. But again as I stated in my previous post, I think the OP was talking about your standard mill Wally World Matchbox specials in a 99 cent blister pack. Again, I would rather have 2 $15 dollar great looking (fill in the name....Herpa, Wiking etc.) HO scale cars than 50 toylike oversized matchbox cars anyday. My choice. Obviously your layout, you do what you want, but I personally would be embarrased to showcase such an abomination.
D:
You missed the Hot Wheels ice cream truck by the bus shelter and the hatchback behind the pop truck!
But this scene is an excellent example of what I was talking about. The overall effect is fantastic. Individual elements may not be 100% perfect, but I have seen very few urban model railroads that really convey the feeling of walking around a busy city like this scene does! Just looking at it makes me hear the car horns, buses revving up, jackhammers in the distance. With only 2 cars, however perfect they were, this scene would look totally dead.
Even the really large gold car doesn't detract, and I am very intrigued at this - the key is that it's exactly where one expects a car to be, and the color is right. Given those cues, and without overtly jarring distractions, the mind fills in the gaps. The really astonishing example of this has nothing to do with the cars at all! It's the stairway! I didn't even see it the first few times I looked, nor did I notice the room corners. In a city, your attention is not focused on the sky - the ground is where the action is - and the strong vertical and horizontal lines of the stair are similar to the lines of the nearby buildings! I am utterly floored by this. It really shows just how strong this scene is.
Maybe there's another factor at work here - as a die-cast car expert (nice Lesney collection!) you probably notice them more, and that makes them stand out. When they don't stand out, they don't detract, but add to the impression. This even worked on you, with the ice cream truck, which was a bit more stealthy than the other cars! This can often happen with things in our particular areas of interest or knowledge.
One way to combat this is to remove as many cues as possible. The chrome wheels catch the eye - paint them over and they'd draw a lot less attention. Changing the color scheme might also throw the experts long enough for the overall effect to take hold, since color scheme is a big part of the die-cast hobby. If that garbage truck was dull yellow with some weathering, and had dark wheels, you'd still have noticed it, but it wouldn't have reached out and grabbed you.
The other day, I also looked at some of my own cars (and my son's) and found some close to HO. The Cadillac hearse was 1:81. The Unimog is 1:84. Several were 1:76, including the Chevy Van and some lead-sled 1970s cars. A Ford late-model pickup was 1:80. These are going by the scales stamped on the bottom, but they looked plausible, comparing sizes to cars I knew were correct. Unfortunately, the scarcer 1930s - early 40s cars that I can actually use are usually closer to S, but they're also small in size, which helps smooth things over.
Sir Madog Bundy74 Why can't we all just get along? ... most of us do, but we all need a little "friction" now and then.
That's why we have the sanders to cause some friction. Otherwise we'd be spinning wheels.
Autobus PrimeBut this scene is an excellent example of what I was talking about. The overall effect is fantastic.
I agree. For him and others like you who like this "toy like" style of scenery. But not for me. The "Franklin and Manchester" it aint. The day George Sellios uses Wally World matchbox cars on his layout is the day I become Pope. I belong to a train club and their layout is prototypical down to the last blade of grass. We're talking MUSEUM Quality here. Do you get my drift? Take a photo and you would swear it was real. Not this scene.
Autobus PrimeThis even worked on you, with the ice cream truck, which was a bit more stealthy than the other cars! This can often happen with things in our particular areas of interest or knowledge.
That vehicle is hidden behind the bus stop. I'm surprised you found it. If you were there in person it would look bad...trust me.
Autobus PrimeOne way to combat this is to remove as many cues as possible. The chrome wheels catch the eye - paint them over and they'd draw a lot less attention. Changing the color scheme might also throw the experts long enough for the overall effect to take hold, since color scheme is a big part of the die-cast hobby. If that garbage truck was dull yellow with some weathering, and had dark wheels, you'd still have noticed it, but it wouldn't have reached out and grabbed you.
Sorry, you can paint that pig any color you want, but its still a pig.
Just to show you I'm not a pig myself...Heres my Uncles Lionel TOY Trainset and it is fantastic!
Drill.
Ya got any pics of the Train club ya belong to or a website?
IbflattopDrill. Ya got any pics of the Train club ya belong to or a website?
Just cell phone pics. I'll take some decent ones next week. A few years ago Model Railroader was going to run a picture spread and article on their layout. It didn't happen for a variety of reasons, but if their layout was good enough for MR...........
I collect cartoony, fantasy toy cars as well as fine scale, dead-accurate replicas. The former are on glass shelves in cabinets, the latter are on my HO scale (I said scale) layout. Never the twain shall meet.
I do group the fantasy cars, no matter the level of realism, by scale. Sometimes it is difficult to tell if a toy car belongs with, say, 1/43 or 1/48 cars, but there usually is a "feel" to the car which is the tipoff.Toy cars are often caricatures of actual cars, in the era in which they are made, and can convey the feel or atmosphere of the era better than a dead-accurate replica reduced to scale. A toy car from the 1930's may capture certain aspects of design from that era better than a scaled down replica.
Hot Wheels, MB Fast Wheels, and the other toys from the 1970's through today tend to be loudly finished, with overabundant shine, exaggerated tires and wheels, and other design feature that the real cars would have had if those features were practical.
As shown by the two guys enjoying their trains in a preceding post, you can enjoy non-scale toy trains just as well as scale-model toy trains (er, I mean Model Railroads). Same goes for the vehicles you choose to populate your layout.
I find this thread very interesting yet very conflicting.
Matchbox nor Hot Wheels were never intended to be accurate scale models and we all know this. They were built to look cool, entice a youngster to buy it and play on an orange track or in a dirt pile. (I had some track but usually chose the dirt pile. Hence my lack of most all the old cars of my youth.) not to end up on a scale railroad. Of course a furnace filter was not made with the intention of being a tree either. My point is it's not H.W. or M.B. fault the cars are not H.O. scale except for the ones they sell as a particular scale. ( and I realize no one is saying that they arepoor "models") However as has already been said, if you choose to use a oversized vehicle on your layout as a stand to get a feeling for the scene, go for it, much like many do with cutout buildings to get a feeling for the scene. Though I'm sure that will be different in some way. If you just choose to use some because it looks close enough for you, then great. I'm not going to loose any sleep over what you choose to do with your layout and I'll leave your train room saying looks good just like I'd tell someone their new car is nice even though I wouldn't pick that color. What's the harm, not my car or layout. A mention is ok, but I wouldn't dwell on it at all. Everyone has something or things on their layout that is not prototypical it just depends on how far YOU choose to dig. And that is the big issue, how far do you choose to go before prototypicalness is no longer an issue. That is a point that will never be agreed on by all. Just my opinion. Others may disagree.
I must say I am impressed with this thread. Though people have strong opinions one way or another each has been expressing their opinion and no one has developed an attitude that has degraded the conversation to an argument. It would be very easy for that to happen and on many forums I've visited it would have in the first few posts.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
Pretty much sums up my view,as well.
Everyone has their own threshold of rivet counting. If what you're currently doing works for you, then fine.
We all have to set goals for ourselves, hopefully ones we can obtain, or at least come close to. Everyone's bar is at a different level, though this level is subject to change at any moment.
Personally, I see no harm in using reasonably realistic vehicles until I can populate the layout with proper models of the appropriate vintage. This can be quite expensive, so it will definitely take me a fairly long time, since obviously the actual operating pieces of a model railroad will have to take precedence over static details.
Placing a bunch of 'reasonable facsimilies' in a 'backstage' parking lot behind a factory or warehouse should work pretty well, as long as the relative scale of each vehicle is the same. It's the grossly out-of-scale ones that really stick out, I'd never use those except to play with the kids in the sandbox or back yard.
One can't expect a scene with such details to pass as totally realistic, however, but if that's good enough for now, so be it.
Enjoy what you do, improve it when you can, I say.