Matchbox Cars vs. Scale Models

[selector]

It has all been said.  Time to move on.

-Crandell

[TMarsh]

Before we degrade this post into a "should you or shouldn't you and why you should or shouldn't" maybe we should re read the posters question.

KyleMan

Are Matchbox/Hot Wheels Cars HO Scale (1/87)? What is a good way to tell if they are to the right scale before purchasing any?

It soiunds to me as if he doesn't intend on using them unless they are scale. Hence the last sentance.

[blownout cylinder]

Driline

blownout cylinder

I'd rather get the proper things that are needed first than spend the money on dollar store stuff---then have to get the right things after the fact

If you factor in the time spent and the money on gas spent etc on getting the 'el cheapo' products you really would've been better off just taking the time----

 

I don't quite understand what you are saying. Do you mean its better to save your money and get quality stuff first?

My writing skills went South---You got the meaning though

[Driline]

blownout cylinder

I'd rather get the proper things that are needed first than spend the money on dollar store stuff---then have to get the right things after the fact

If you factor in the time spent and the money on gas spent etc on getting the 'el cheapo' products you really would've been better off just taking the time----

 

I don't quite understand what you are saying. Do you mean its better to save your money and get quality stuff first?

[Catt]

[blownout cylinder]

Driline

Midnight Railroader

But then, I didn't use Tyco trains or Plasticville structures, either.

 

LOL. You hit the nail on the head. I couldn't agree with you more.

I'd rather get the proper things that are needed first than spend the money on dollar store stuff---then have to get the right things after the fact

If you factor in the time spent and the money on gas spent etc on getting the 'el cheapo' products you really would've been better off just taking the time----

[Driline]

Midnight Railroader

But then, I didn't use Tyco trains or Plasticville structures, either.

 

LOL. You hit the nail on the head. I couldn't agree with you more.

[Midnight Railroader]

accatenary

Im not embarassed about matchbox cars on my layout. id be more embarrased with empty streets.

 

That's fine for you, but I'm building a scale model railroad, and after spending time to get the track, trains, scenery, details and structures right, I don't want to suddenly start using out-of-scale toys just because they're cheaper or easier to find.

 But then, I didn't use Tyco trains or Plasticville structures, either.

[challenger3980]

Driline

Ibflattop

Drill.

 Ya got any pics of the Train club ya belong to or a website?

 

Just cell phone pics. I'll take some decent ones next week. A few years ago Model Railroader was going to run a picture spread and article on their layout. It didn't happen for a variety of reasons, but if their layout was good enough for MR...........

And that was which edition of MR? Oh it wasn't, in MR. maybe it wasn't good enough after all.

[Driline]

 If a picture is worth a thousand words.......

$3.50 Hotwheels VW Bug vs $9.60 Wiking VW Bug

$25 (99cents if you 50 years old and happen to keep your matchbox cars around that long ) Matchbox regular wheels police car vs $12 Busch police car

Even using the older matchbox regular wheel vehicles from the 60's, its not even close. Spending time repainting and putting different wheels on it would give it a Frankenstein look IMHO.

 

[kcole4001]

Replacing wheels would be the biggest improvement. Shouldn't be all that hard to so, once a source for decent wheels is found.

Set the stage with them in the background and the more expensive models such as Jordans in the foreground and you're good to go.

As already posted, an empty layout looks less realistic than one populated with less than totally realistic vehicles. I agree. We all have to make compromises at times.

I am modelling the 1930s so I have little to choose from except the models such as Jordan sells, but for modern and recent eras there's plenty of variety out there. Jordans seem to run between $6 and $9 US for the most part for the 1920-1940 era vehicles, so I have a very long way to go on a very limited budget.

I'll set my own bar pretty high, and whether or not I can reach that with the time, money, patience, and talent I've got remains to be seen.

[Driline]

challenger3980

Some people's Mommas, didn't teach them very good manners.

 

Off topic. Please answer the original posters question.

[ccaranna]

Has anyone ever considered modifying a Hot Wheels or Matchbox car?

I bet if you take one apart and use thinner window glazing, change the tires and weather it, you could make one of those look pretty good and probably save yourself some $ in the process. I know that it's no fun to strip paint, but I think the main problem with using toy cars is the paint jobs are unrealisticly thick and gaudy. Remember, they're made to create interest and withstand some abuse by a child.

As for the scale proportions, yeah they're bigger, but if strategically placed, I bet 75% of the general population wouldn't even notice. 20% would notice and wouldn't care, and the last 5% are rivet counters who are under the impression that model railroads only appear in print and should always be viewed from no further than 2 feet away with a magnifying glass in hand.

I think this would be a great how-to article in MR. Not everything has to be purchased and placed on the layout right out of the box to look convincing.

 

[TMarsh]

kcole4001

Everyone's bar is at a different level, though this level is subject to change at any moment.

I couldn't agree more and I can attest to the statement of change. My level has increased. We'll see how far!

But back to the OP's question. The 1/87 Hot Wheels are packaged differently than the regular H.W. (a box) and they have  "1/87 scale" on the package. The regular ones do not. WalMart also carries, off and on, Malibu Classic cars often for $1.00. Their selection is dismal, but occasionally they will get in a load of different ones but still usually only one or two styles. Of course that is at my local Wal Mart. I've also picked up a couple of M.C. semi truck tractors for less than $5.00 ea. If I remember correctly they were $3.99?. (prices subject to change taxes not included. May not be available in Alaska and Hawaii. Subject to availability in Canada.)  

 

[challenger3980]

Some people's Mommas, didn't teach them very good manners.

[kcole4001]

Pretty much sums up my view,as well.

Everyone has their own threshold of rivet counting. If what you're currently doing works for you, then fine.

We all have to set goals for ourselves, hopefully ones we can obtain, or at least come close to. Everyone's bar is at a different level, though this level is subject to change at any moment.

Personally, I see no harm in using reasonably realistic vehicles until I can populate the layout with proper models of the appropriate vintage. This can be quite expensive, so it will definitely take me a fairly long time, since obviously the actual operating pieces of a model railroad will have to take precedence over static details.

Placing a bunch of 'reasonable facsimilies' in a 'backstage' parking lot behind a factory or warehouse should work pretty well, as long as the relative scale of each vehicle is the same. It's the grossly out-of-scale ones that really stick out, I'd never use those except to play with the kids in the sandbox or back yard.

One can't expect a scene with such details to pass as totally realistic, however, but if that's good enough for now, so be it.

Enjoy what you do, improve it when you can, I say.

[TMarsh]

I find this thread very interesting yet very conflicting.

Matchbox nor Hot Wheels were never intended to be accurate scale models and we all know this. They were built to look cool, entice a youngster to buy it and play on an orange track or in a dirt pile. (I had some track but usually chose the dirt pile. Hence my lack of most all the old cars of my youth.) not to end up on a scale railroad. Of course a furnace filter was not made with the intention of being a tree either. My point is it's not H.W. or M.B. fault the cars are not H.O. scale except for the ones they sell as a particular scale. ( and I realize no one is saying that they arepoor "models") However as has already been said, if you choose to use a oversized vehicle on your layout as a stand to get a feeling for the scene, go for it, much like many do with cutout buildings to get a feeling for the scene. Though I'm sure that will be different in some way. If you just choose to use some because it looks close enough for you, then great. I'm not going to loose any sleep over what you choose to do with your layout and I'll leave your train room saying looks good just like I'd tell someone their new car is nice even though I wouldn't pick that color. What's the harm, not my car or layout. A mention is ok, but I wouldn't dwell on it at all. Everyone has something or things on their layout that is not prototypical it just depends on how far YOU choose to dig. And that is the big issue, how far do you choose to go before prototypicalness is no longer an issue. That is a point that will never be agreed on by all. Just my opinion. Others may disagree.

I must say I am impressed with this thread. Though people have strong opinions one way or another each has been expressing their opinion and no one has developed an attitude that has degraded the conversation to an argument. It would be very easy for that to happen and on many forums I've visited it would have in the first few posts.

[Robt. Livingston]

I collect cartoony, fantasy toy cars as well as fine scale, dead-accurate replicas.  The former are on glass shelves in cabinets, the latter are on my HO scale (I said scale) layout.  Never the twain shall meet.

I do group the fantasy cars, no matter the level of realism, by scale.  Sometimes it is difficult to tell if a toy car belongs with, say, 1/43 or 1/48 cars, but there usually is a "feel" to the car which is the tipoff.

Toy cars are often caricatures of actual cars, in the era in which they are made, and can convey the feel or atmosphere of the era better than a dead-accurate replica reduced to scale. A toy car from the 1930's may capture certain aspects of design from that era better than a scaled down replica.  

Hot Wheels, MB Fast Wheels, and the other toys from the 1970's through today tend to be loudly finished, with  overabundant shine, exaggerated tires and wheels, and other design feature that the real cars would have had if those features were practical. 

As shown by the two guys enjoying their trains in a preceding post, you can enjoy non-scale toy trains just as well as scale-model toy trains (er, I mean Model Railroads).  Same goes for the vehicles you choose to populate your layout.    

 

[Driline]

Ibflattop

Drill.

 Ya got any pics of the Train club ya belong to or a website?

 

Just cell phone pics. I'll take some decent ones next week. A few years ago Model Railroader was going to run a picture spread and article on their layout. It didn't happen for a variety of reasons, but if their layout was good enough for MR...........

[Ibflattop]

Drill.

 Ya got any pics of the Train club ya belong to or a website?

[Driline]

Autobus Prime

But this scene is an excellent example of what I was talking about.  The overall effect is fantastic.

 

I agree. For him and others like you who like this "toy like" style of scenery. But not for me. The "Franklin and Manchester" it aint. The day George Sellios uses Wally World matchbox cars on his layout is the day I become Pope. I belong to a train club and their layout is prototypical down to the last blade of grass. We're talking MUSEUM Quality here. Do you get my drift? Take a photo and you would swear it was real. Not this scene.

Autobus Prime

This even worked on you, with the ice cream truck, which was a bit more stealthy than the other cars!  This can often happen with things in our particular areas of interest or knowledge.

That vehicle is hidden behind the bus stop. I'm surprised you found it. If you were there in person it would look bad...trust me.

Autobus Prime

One way to combat this is to remove as many cues as possible. The chrome wheels catch the eye - paint them over and they'd draw a lot less attention.  Changing the color scheme might also throw the experts long enough for the overall effect to take hold, since color scheme is a big part of the die-cast hobby.  If that garbage truck was dull yellow with some weathering, and had dark wheels, you'd still have noticed it, but it wouldn't have reached out and grabbed you.

Sorry, you can paint that pig any color you want, but its still a pig.

Just to show you I'm not a pig myself...Heres my Uncles Lionel TOY Trainset and it is fantastic!

 

[Packer]

Sir Madog

 

Bundy74

Why can't we all just get along?

... most of us do, but we all need a little "friction" now and then. 

That's why we have the sanders to cause some friction. Otherwise we'd be spinning wheels.

[Autobus Prime]

Driline

accatenary

I dont think matchbox or hotwheels have a scale. Its what ever can fit into the box.  the smaller cars are definately not 1:87  but some of the large vehicles are very close for example ambulances, trash trucks, tractor trailors and some vans  look in the photos below  Can you tell which ones are 1:87 and matchbox. 

 

Yes I can for the most part. Your photo is somewhat difficult to see because of the angle, but I would say that that the following vehicles look out of place and need to be thrown off your layout preferrably on a hard cement floor.

1)  White garbage truck

2) Black Lincoln Nav behind it.

3) The ambulance

4) Gold ford focus behind the ambulance

The only vehicle I think looks like its correct in scale is the "Boley" Red Box truck. I've purchased some of the 1/87 scale matchbox 5 dollar special collectors edition vehicles and must say they look OK. But again as I stated in my previous post, I think the OP was talking about your standard mill Wally World Matchbox specials in a 99 cent blister pack.

Again, I would rather have 2 $15 dollar great looking (fill in the name....Herpa, Wiking etc.) HO scale cars than 50 toylike oversized matchbox cars anyday. My choice. Obviously your layout, you do what you want, but I personally would be embarrased to showcase such an abomination.

D:

You missed the Hot Wheels ice cream truck by the bus shelter and the hatchback behind the pop truck!

But this scene is an excellent example of what I was talking about.  The overall effect is fantastic.  Individual elements may not be 100% perfect, but I have seen very few urban model railroads that really convey the feeling of walking around a busy city like this scene does!  Just looking at it makes me hear the car horns, buses revving up, jackhammers in the distance.  With only 2 cars, however perfect they were, this scene would look totally dead. 

Even the really large gold car doesn't detract, and I am very intrigued at this - the key is that it's exactly where one expects a car to be, and the color is right.  Given those cues, and without overtly jarring distractions, the mind fills in the gaps.  The really astonishing example of this has nothing to do with the cars at all!  It's the stairway! I didn't even see it the first few times I looked, nor did I notice the room corners.  In a city, your attention is not focused on the sky - the ground is where the action is - and the strong vertical and horizontal lines of the stair are similar to the lines of the nearby buildings! I am utterly floored by this.  It really shows just how strong this scene is.

Maybe there's another factor at work here - as a die-cast car expert (nice Lesney collection!) you probably notice them more, and that makes them stand out.  When they don't stand out, they don't detract, but add to the impression.  This even worked on you, with the ice cream truck, which was a bit more stealthy than the other cars!  This can often happen with things in our particular areas of interest or knowledge.

One way to combat this is to remove as many cues as possible. The chrome wheels catch the eye - paint them over and they'd draw a lot less attention.  Changing the color scheme might also throw the experts long enough for the overall effect to take hold, since color scheme is a big part of the die-cast hobby.  If that garbage truck was dull yellow with some weathering, and had dark wheels, you'd still have noticed it, but it wouldn't have reached out and grabbed you.

The other day, I also looked at some of my own cars (and my son's) and found some close to HO.  The Cadillac hearse was 1:81.  The Unimog is 1:84.  Several were 1:76, including the Chevy Van and some lead-sled 1970s cars.  A Ford late-model pickup was 1:80.  These are going by the scales stamped on the bottom, but they looked plausible, comparing sizes to cars I knew were correct. Unfortunately, the scarcer 1930s - early 40s cars that I can actually use are usually closer to S, but they're also small in size, which helps smooth things over. 

[Anonymous]

 

Bundy74

Why can't we all just get along?

... most of us do, but we all need a little "friction" now and then. 

[Bundy74]

After reading through all of these posts, and considering the viewpoints of each and every one of you, I have come to the following conclusion:

Why can't we all just get along?

 

 

[Driline]

accatenary

Wow some people take offense to matchbox cars like graffiti on box cars. My point here was that some people just take the manufacturers word on what 1:87 and probably never checked it and that goes for buidlings and autos. I mentioned that I had three versions of the same car two of them 1:87 and one from a wally world 99cent bister pack and they are all different sizes.  No supprise for the wally world car but a total suprise for the two 1:87 cars  Im not embarassed about matchbox cars on my layout. id be more embarrased with empty streets.

 

I may have been a little "rash" about dropping your cars to the pavement, but I was trying to make a point. I think there are two or more different camps out there when it comes to scenery. Those who try to portray "realistic" modeling and those who are into a more fun, or toylike atmosphere. Nothing wrong with either one. Just different ways to display or capture what we are trying to convey. My uncle has a huge Lionel train set set up in his basement. It is a replica of what a young boy might have seen when he was young under the Christmas tree. Bright colors, lots of moving scenery with Lionels motorized "toys" and plenty of operation. I think it looks great and is fun to play with, but its not what I want. I want more of a Pel Soeberg type of layout that is truly prototypical modeling in every way. Ultra realistic. In other words when you take a picture of the layout its hard to tell whether its real or not. My talents are far from that, but thats what I strive for.

Looking at your layout pic, I would have to say that you fall somewhere in the middle there. I really like your skyscraper buildings, but much of the rest of the layout looks more "toylike" especially with the oversize matchbox cars. Again, nothing wrong with that....its what you want....not something that I would want. 

[accatenary]

Wow some people take offense to matchbox cars like graffiti on box cars. My point here was that some people just take the manufacturers word on what 1:87 and probably never checked it and that goes for buidlings and autos. I mentioned that I had three versions of the same car two of them 1:87 and one from a wally world 99cent bister pack and they are all different sizes.  No supprise for the wally world car but a total suprise for the two 1:87 cars  Im not embarassed about matchbox cars on my layout. id be more embarrased with empty streets.

[Driline]

accatenary

I dont think matchbox or hotwheels have a scale. Its what ever can fit into the box.  the smaller cars are definately not 1:87  but some of the large vehicles are very close for example ambulances, trash trucks, tractor trailors and some vans  look in the photos below  Can you tell which ones are 1:87 and matchbox. 

 

Yes I can for the most part. Your photo is somewhat difficult to see because of the angle, but I would say that that the following vehicles look out of place and need to be thrown off your layout preferrably on a hard cement floor.

1)  White garbage truck

2) Black Lincoln Nav behind it.

3) The ambulance

4) Gold ford focus behind the ambulance

The only vehicle I think looks like its correct in scale is the "Boley" Red Box truck. I've purchased some of the 1/87 scale matchbox 5 dollar special collectors edition vehicles and must say they look OK. But again as I stated in my previous post, I think the OP was talking about your standard mill Wally World Matchbox specials in a 99 cent blister pack.

Again, I would rather have 2 $15 dollar great looking (fill in the name....Herpa, Wiking etc.) HO scale cars than 50 toylike oversized matchbox cars anyday. My choice. Obviously your layout, you do what you want, but I personally would be embarrased to showcase such an abomination.

 

 

[Driline]

accatenary

 just did that with two vehicles a porchse cayman 14' and lincoln navigator 18'. You can get lengths from specification section on new car sites.  I actually have three porsche caymen: one by model power 1;87  , one by hotwheels "1:87"  and regular hot wheels cayman they are different sizes  I need to compare the sizes with a herpa or brawa model. My Theory is that I think that some 1:87 vehicles are not exactly 1:87.   We will see what scale the Hot wheels lincoln navigator is?

 

You're missing the point here. YOu're muddying the waters bringing in matchbox's true 1:87 special collector cars that cost $5 bucks. This discussion was about the Wally World blister pack 99 cent 1/64 scale or whatever it is matchbox cars. AND this discussion was not ONLY about scale but how "toylike" the matchbox cars are compared with true HO scale quality models like wiking, herpa, etc.