fwrightMy conclusion is that small steam sold well in the '50s, '60s, and '70s, but model railroaders are much more willing to sell off their small steam than their big steam. The big steam is much more likely to be part of a personal collection. I suspect the same is true today - many model railroaders own one or two large steamers that are special to them - regardless of whether they have a layout that will run them or not.
When I was at the Woodstock Trainshow back in April '09 I saw a lot of brass small steam engines--2-6-0's, 2-8-0's, 4-4-0's, 2-4-0's 2-4-0T's --and such but not one big lokie. Even in plastic, or what have you small by the bucket load and no big ones. I would kind of think that therefore the market is pretty much run by what the collector wants. The small steam just did not seem to move. And yes, big steam seems to be the driving force in this market. Even the secondary markets prove this. What ends up on the fleamarket spaces? Small steam. Very rarely will I come across big steam on a fleamarket table--and if I do, it is in millipieces.
Hence what seems to be happening is that the companies, yes, are going to where the money is. The question might be raised. Does it have to be ONLY this way? How to answer that would be tricky.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Looking back through my old Model Railroader issues, I came across some interesting points.
- Linn Westcott stated in an editorial that Bill Ryan of PFM stated their all time best seller was the ATSF 2-8-0.
- The Varney Docksider and Mantua switchers and General were common on many layouts in the '50s and '60s. But so were the Varney Old Lady, Casey Jones, and Mantua Pacific and Mikado.
- Bowser never made any small steam until they took over Penn Line and Varney. The Bowser Pacific and Challenger were the apparent top sellers from the original Bowser line.
- The most common used brass loco I see at various hobby shops I have visited in the past 7 years is the Ma & Pa 2-8-0. I see far more small steam used brass for sale than I see heavy and articulateds.
My conclusion is that small steam sold well in the '50s, '60s, and '70s, but model railroaders are much more willing to sell off their small steam than their big steam. The big steam is much more likely to be part of a personal collection. I suspect the same is true today - many model railroaders own one or two large steamers that are special to them - regardless of whether they have a layout that will run them or not.
I have a Bachmann Spectrum K4 passenger set, and a matching super-detailed Bowser K4. I doubt they will ever run on a layout I am likely to have. But I am having a hard time bringing myself to sell them because they were special to my father. The same would be true if I were gifted with a Challenger, Big Boy, an HOn3 K series, or even a 4-12-2. Even though I would be unlikely to buy any of these on my own, and they won't fit into my layout, if one came into my possession through a gift or especially good deal, I would be hard put to give it up.
just my thoughts
Fred W
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the late Great Eastern Railway see: - http://www.greateasternrailway.com
For more photos of the late GER see: - http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/
Paul3 Yes, not every steam loco that everyone owns is registered at the club. Far from being discouraged, I think it bolsters my argument. Why? Because it's evidence that people don't run small steam even if they own it. The rule at the club is that you need to register the loco if you plan on using it during Operation Sessions or if you plan to leave it on the layout. Therefore, the fact that people aren't registering small steam means either that they aren't interested in running it, or that they don't have any in the first place. Oh, and most of our club members don't have a home layout. That's why they joined.
Yes, not every steam loco that everyone owns is registered at the club. Far from being discouraged, I think it bolsters my argument. Why? Because it's evidence that people don't run small steam even if they own it. The rule at the club is that you need to register the loco if you plan on using it during Operation Sessions or if you plan to leave it on the layout. Therefore, the fact that people aren't registering small steam means either that they aren't interested in running it, or that they don't have any in the first place. Oh, and most of our club members don't have a home layout. That's why they joined.
Just another set of facts that bias the data.
My position has never been that these companies should not make large steam, what I fail to understand is the reasons why they keep making the same large steam while ignoring lots of small amd medium steam that would sell well. The loco that started this post is new to the marketplace, but how many times have the same, mostly larger locos, been done over and over.
You can say that's what people want, but there is considerable evidence that many have bought and would buy a host of other locos if they became available. The record breaking sales numbers of the Bachmann Spectrum Consolidation are proof enough.
As I have pointed out, I don't own hardly any of "famous" big steam that is made over and over.
Paul3 Sheldon,You opened your post with, "No Demand for smaller locos? OK, to show that I put my money wher my mouth is, I own: 8 Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0's, 6 Bachmann Spectrum USRA Heavy 4-8-2's..." 'Scuse me if I thought you had lumped Heavy USRA 4-8-2's into the "smaller locos" category, since, ya' know, you kinda lumped them into the smaller loco category. BTW, note the smilies...I wasn't all that serious.
Sheldon,You opened your post with, "No Demand for smaller locos? OK, to show that I put my money wher my mouth is, I own: 8 Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0's, 6 Bachmann Spectrum USRA Heavy 4-8-2's..." 'Scuse me if I thought you had lumped Heavy USRA 4-8-2's into the "smaller locos" category, since, ya' know, you kinda lumped them into the smaller loco category. BTW, note the smilies...I wasn't all that serious.
And, I read all of what people write and take the whole statement in context before I respond, rather than just reacting to one or two sentences. I said repeatedly "small and/to medium", even if that was not in that opening statement. You may not have been serious, but I agreed with your classification.
And, again, this is a great time to be in this hobby, but the manufacturers need to hear from everyone willing to speak up about what products they would or would not buy. I'm not buying any Big Boys (no matter how many manufacturers make one) or any 4-12-2's.
As for using your "club" members as a data base, I can do the same. In our group of about 25 modelers, only about half have any "big steam" and only 2-3 have locos like the 4-12-2 or a Big Boy. So does that make my sample correct, no, no more than yours.
But rather, to further my modeling goals of a believable roster for my railroad, I will buy 2 or 3 or maybe even 6 or 8 of the right locos. A big consideration for me is how a loco will look on my 36" minimum radius curves and #6 turnouts. Some people don't care, if it makes it around, its fine. They are entitled to that choice. I have higher standards. So I keep all rigid wheelbases under 20 scale feet on my railroad. And, since I model the east, I want locos with an eastern flavor.
I will continue to vote for more selection with my wallet and my voice.
Sheldon
My understanding is that anything eight-coupled (or higher) with a superheater and with a driver diameter meant for main-line freight or passenger service was to be included in "heavy" steam. This would exclude 2-8-2T and other industrial and slow-track engines. We could also use an arbitrary figure of 60K lbs. of tractive effort as the point separating medium from heavy steam, except that there would be an occasional overlap of the Berkshires, which are generally accepted to be the first heavy steamers, and the NYC's H10a's Mikados, for example, which had 2K lbs more tractive effort than at least the first Berks.
-Crandell
We could try to use tractive effort, weight on drivers, total working weight, or overall dimensions for every steam loco to try to fit them into a "light, medium, heavy" class system. Unfortunately, we don't know these pieces of information, or at least I don't. Wheel arrangement is easy, and while it does have flaws, it's pretty simple and gets it right probably 90% of the time. Why? Because it's all about the firebox. The reason you have a trailing truck in the first place is to support the firebox. The bigger the firebox, the larger the boiler and the steaming demands that can be put on it. The larger the boiler, the larger the frame, the greater the weight, the larger the train you can pull, etc. Essentially, the bigger the trailing truck, the "heavier" the steam loco is (with some exceptions).
I disagree on the use wheel diameter to indicate "light, medium, or heavy". Smaller drivers usually mean more power to the rail, while larger drivers usually mean higher top speed. Neither one has much to do with "light, medium, or heavy". For example, the NYC's 4-4-0 999 had 86" drivers, originally. The Big Boy had 68" drivers. Can anyone argue that the 999 was heavier than a Big Boy? Faster, yes. Heavier, no.
BTW, the remark about prototypical accuracy for a classification system is all well and good, but my system addresses all railroads and all types of steamers from Day 1 to the end of the steam era. For example, the NH's heaviest freight loco was the R-3 4-8-2, and the loco with the greatest TE on the RR was their L-1 2-10-2's. On the NH, these would be classed as "heavy". On the UP, which had Big Boys and Challengers, these NH engines would be medium steam. And that's my point. Taken with a "world" view of the steam era, usually the engines that had the 4-wheel trailing truck were "heavy", the ones that had 2-wheel trailing trucks were "medium", and those that had none were "light". As I said, there are exceptions like the 4-12-2 that comes to mind, but those are rather rare.
You may not need another large steam loco, but then I don't need anything other then NH power. Should I tell all manufacturers to stop making non-NH locos? Look, the manufacturers make these large engines for one simple reason...they sell. It's fine that you don't like it (hey, I cringe everytime someone makes a Penn Central loco), but let's recognize that manfucturers are chasing the dollar, here. Somehow, I think they know their market better than we do...since they have the sales figures and we don't.
As for my club's roster, yes, it's a fairly small sample size compared to the estimated 137,500 HO model railroaders in the USA...but our club's sample size is 68 times greater than your sample size, which consists of just you.
In summation, big steam is more popular than small steam. Always has been, always will be. Manufacturers know this, and therefore continue to make rare big steam locos over more numerous but less popular small steam locos.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
CNJ831 Bob and Bruce, I think if you actually examine the marketplace over the past decade with any care and compare it to earlier eras, you will find that the selection/number of steam locomotives available today exceeds that of any previous time in the hobby's history. The present day is a steam-lovers golden age and by no means one in serious decline! Perhaps total sales volume may be down as compared to 30-40 years ago, simply because of the shrinking of the number of hobbyists, but I expect that it is reflected in diesel sales in the same manner. I would also point out once again that the era most modeled in HO today remains the transition era, just as it has been for 50 years now. And it is modeled specifically because it allows the hobbyist to include a selection of late steam and early diesel. CNJ831
Bob and Bruce, I think if you actually examine the marketplace over the past decade with any care and compare it to earlier eras, you will find that the selection/number of steam locomotives available today exceeds that of any previous time in the hobby's history. The present day is a steam-lovers golden age and by no means one in serious decline! Perhaps total sales volume may be down as compared to 30-40 years ago, simply because of the shrinking of the number of hobbyists, but I expect that it is reflected in diesel sales in the same manner.
I would also point out once again that the era most modeled in HO today remains the transition era, just as it has been for 50 years now. And it is modeled specifically because it allows the hobbyist to include a selection of late steam and early diesel.
CNJ831
That is a refreshing piece of reasurance regarding steam. Not haveing the rescourses to make comparison research regarding the sale of model steamers I happily accept that steamers are far from being in serious decline. (Whew!)As a modeler of the transition period I believe that I can access the best of both worlds and in a limited way, observing the practices of the prototype I model, do just that.
I have to say that even though my prototype used some big steamers in their day, Class R 2-6-6-4, for example, often they proved to be unsucessful in the stamping ground chosen for them by their owners and were sold on to the B&O. These large locomotives generaly ran in a area of their system that is not the focus of my modeling interest.
I still like smaller locomotives myself anyway - that's just a personal reference - the largest I have is a 2-10-2.
Bruce
For what it's worth, I'm just getting back into the hobby in my early 30's (years after my brief flirtation as a boy). If I may be so bold as to offer some thoughts in general on some of the opinions expressed on the forums:
1. Anyone interested in model railroading should embrace Thomas the Train, despite whatever problems they may have with it. My son discovered Thomas and Friends, which directly led to his interest in model trains and hence, my interest. (I only point this out because no engine on Thomas is larger than a 4-6-2.)
2. RtR is helpful for people who work 60-80 hour weeks because I don't have 330 hours to spend putting kits together or scratch-building items. I still admire the work of people who can and honestly believe they have quite the artistic ability but denigrating people for using RtR or manufacturer's for trying to meet a market segment's realistic requirements to enter the hobby is self-defeating for the hobby itself.
3. "Monster engines" do pique my interest (and wallet) moreso than the humble 2-6-0 Mogul. I'm sorry to say so but I feel I get more "bang for the buck" purchasing BLI's 2-6-6-4 for a little over $200.00 from Factory Direct Trains than when I dropped $100.00 for a Bachmann K-4. Am I dissappointed with the Bachmann? No, but it's only worth $200.00 or so if it comes with DCC and sound in my opinion.
4. The "monsters," from what I have been able to observe, are typically associated with a specific locomotive used by a specific railroad. When I bought my T1, I didn't have to worry that the model manufacturer took liberties in adhering to the actual prototype. No other railroad had a T1. Same with my N&W Class A.
5. I've noticed my own hesitancy to purchase smaller engines because I'm concerned about how well they match the prototype. My ignorance of history leads me not to buy a number of 2-8-2's simply because I haven't figured out if the PRR Mike's had Belpaire fireboxes or not in the 1940's. Nor have I had the time or inclination to figure it out yet.
6. Steam isn't dying with younger modelers. I have yet to purchase a diesel. My son has no interest in diesel. The only place I've seen a steam locomotive is on TV and in museums but I'm going to model steam.
Take my opinions for what they are worth but I felt it was necessary to comment.
Paul,
Repeatedly throughout my post I used the terms "small to medium", and I have used those terms consistantly in regard to this subject - not just in this thread.
How about we use some other "classification system" that has more prototype accuracy like T.E., Adheasive Weight or rigid wheel base to seperate "sizes" of steam locos. If we use rigid wheel base (which was a size restricting condition on the prototype), even my 2-8-8-2's are only "medium" sized since they are small drivered. If we use TE or adheasive weight, the Reading 4-8-4 is only slightly larger than the USRA 4-8-2H, but sit them next to each other, the T-1 looks MUCH bigger and is much longer.
Even at that I have no problem with your "clasification" of my fleet - I did say small to medium repeated throughout the post.
AND, we need more "medium" sized locos as well as smaller ones. What we don't need is another 4-8-4 or 4-12-4, or 2-10-2.
Your club, while it does represent a bigger sample than just me, is still not a big sample and represents a group likely to have similar likes and bias, so not much of an indicator. And, how many of those members have all their locos registered at the club? Another "error" in the research. It would stand to reason that club members would be more likely to bring larger power to a club layout where they can run longer trains and for "bragging rights", leaving their fleet of 2-8-0's home on their smaller layout.
I'll do my 70+ diesels another day.
Sheldon,Since when are 4-8-2's, let alone Heavy USRA 4-8-2's, "smaller steam"?
Personally, I tend to sort steam by trailing truck & articulation:Light = no trailing truck, non-articluated, plus all geared steamMedium = 2-wheel trailing truck, non-articulatedHeavy = 4 or more wheel trailing truck, plus all articulated steamYes, I know there are exceptions (some of WM's 2-8-0's are too big to be considered "light" by anyone's scale, and 2-4-4-2 loggers are a little small to be called "Heavy"), but for reasons of comparison, I like the above system. It covers probably 90% of steam engines, with only some exceptions.Therefore, I would class your collection as:14 Light14 Medium9 HeavyNow, if you want to talk about a larger sampling, I have my club roster of equipment handy. We are a large (10,000 sq. ft.) & old (est. 1938) HO club in Hingham, MA (www.ssmrc.org), and we currently have 68 members. Our loco roster is currently up to 875 total locos of all types, ranging from HOn3 steam, to electrics, to Doodlebugs, to AC6000CW's. Today, I tallied up the steam locos, and these are the results:There are only 107 steam locos out of 875 registered. That's just 12%. Of that 12%, we have the following wheel arrangements on the roster:2-8-2 = 114-8-2 = 104-6-2 = 94-6-4 = 90-8-0 = 82-8-4 = 82-10-0 = 62-10-4 = 62-8-0 = 62-10-2 = 52-8-8-2 = 52-6-6-2 = 44-4-4-4 = 44-8-4 = 42-6-0 = 22-6-6-4 = 24-6-0 = 24-8-8-4 = 22-6-6-6 = 1Heisler = 14-6-6-4 = 1 4-8-8-2 = 1To sum up:Light = 25Medium = 35Heavy = 47
I think this shows, quite clearly, that Heavy steam as a whole is more popular than Light steam, at least at our club. Heck, it's almost a 2 to 1 ratio in popularity. Can you understand now why manufacturers are chasing big steam and not making little teakettles? BTW, just for giggles, I also sorted the diesel roster, too. The most popular diesels at our club are:GP7 = 38GP38 = 33F7A = 31RS-3 = 29E7A = 25F3A = 23SD35 = 18RS-11 = 18F7B = 17SD40-2 = 16GP40 = 12RS-1 = 12C40-8 = 11C44-9W = 11RDC-1 = 11S-2 = 11E8A = 10F3B = 10GP35 = 10Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut I must have been the only person to buy these locos since there is no demand. I have two or more of most locos I own, especially the small/medium ones, to give the railroad that realistic fleet look. Most collectors I know only have one copy of each. Seems to me I would be a more valuable customer than the guy who only buys only one of each for his showcase?
You see, what galls me is that there are people out here who will sit and say there is no demand for small locos simply because it is easier to do. Here is a fine example of what happens when a collectors market pops right in there and messes things up. The good thing here is that Bachmann is the only company --outside of a few randoms that get thrown in on occassion from others--that seems to be in there doing anything. The same thing could even end up in diesels as well as the collector will favour those big HUGE exotics over the local switcher----something that keeps on occuring---
No Demand for smaller locos? OK, to show that I put my money wher my mouth is, I own:
8 Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0's
6 Bachmann Spectrum USRA Heavy 4-8-2's
2 Bachmann Spectrum 4-6-0's
2 BLI USRA Heavy 2-8-2's
1 Genesis USRA Light 2-8-2
2 IHC 4-6-2's
2 Brass 4-6-2's
2 Proto 0-8-0's
1 Mantua 4-4-2
1 Mantua 0-6-0
1 Mantua 4-4-0
A total of 28 locos 4-8-2 or smaller, only nine larger:
2 Proto 2-8-8-2's
1 Rivarossi 2-6-6-6
1 BLI 2-6-6-4
2 PCM Reading 4-8-4's
3 Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-6-2's
And as "big" locos go, even some of these big ones are not really big (2-6-6-2 for example) compared to Big Boys or 4-12-2's.
So, depending on how you break it down, 75% to 85% of my steam fleet is small to medium, much like a real railroad roster. And my future purchase desires are for more smaller/medium locos not any more big ones.
But I must have been the only person to buy these locos since there is no demand. I have two or more of most locos I own, especially the small/medium ones, to give the railroad that realistic fleet look. Most collectors I know only have one copy of each. Seems to me I would be a more valuable customer than the guy who only buys only one of each for his showcase?
Again, a modern 4-6-0, a 4-6-2, a 4-4-2, some different 2-8-2's would all have me buying 6 packs of locos.
don7 Graffen Regarding modeling what you grew up with I don´t think it is so important. I live in Sweden and is "only" 38 years old and I have never seen operating steam-locos and certainly not US railroads and still I model them. When it comes to manufacturers fascination for big steam I think they should also offere smaller engines. How about something like this: A Richmond engine that was built 1900 ( I think) it would also please the Swedish railroaders as it was exported here. With the exception of the 3 axle tender the engine is similar to the Spectrum 4-6-0 which was representative of the Baldwin engines. 4-6-0 with 52" drivers http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=156 4-6-0 with 63" drivers http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=162
Graffen Regarding modeling what you grew up with I don´t think it is so important. I live in Sweden and is "only" 38 years old and I have never seen operating steam-locos and certainly not US railroads and still I model them. When it comes to manufacturers fascination for big steam I think they should also offere smaller engines. How about something like this: A Richmond engine that was built 1900 ( I think) it would also please the Swedish railroaders as it was exported here.
Regarding modeling what you grew up with I don´t think it is so important. I live in Sweden and is "only" 38 years old and I have never seen operating steam-locos and certainly not US railroads and still I model them. When it comes to manufacturers fascination for big steam I think they should also offere smaller engines.
How about something like this:
A Richmond engine that was built 1900 ( I think) it would also please the Swedish railroaders as it was exported here.
With the exception of the 3 axle tender the engine is similar to the Spectrum 4-6-0 which was representative of the Baldwin engines.
4-6-0 with 52" drivers
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=156
4-6-0 with 63" drivers
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=162
This model was modified from a Bachmann 4-6-0 (found the pic at a Swedish web site)::
Andre
Mac46 All these engines and yet I can't find an HO GN S-2 4-8-4.......................
All these engines and yet I can't find an HO GN S-2 4-8-4.......................
Didn't you hear? There is no demand for small steam locos----all these posters who are looking for them don't really count as demand------
That is, according to some around here-----
rclanger Bob SanduskyThe REASON there aren't many today is because the manufacturers couldn't sell them. They just aren't that much in demand. The generation who can actually remember when Steam rode the rails and the diesel was the new kid on the block is greying (if not outright dying). Bob, you are absolutely correct. No demand, no supply. If supply is high and demand is low, cut the price and get what you can. Spend that cash on manufacturing a product that you know will sell. That is the way business works. Been there, done that...
Bob SanduskyThe REASON there aren't many today is because the manufacturers couldn't sell them. They just aren't that much in demand. The generation who can actually remember when Steam rode the rails and the diesel was the new kid on the block is greying (if not outright dying).
Bob, you are absolutely correct. No demand, no supply. If supply is high and demand is low, cut the price and get what you can. Spend that cash on manufacturing a product that you know will sell. That is the way business works.
Been there, done that...
Maybe to you there is no demand. Did anyone check this out? Did anyone go and do the actual marketing surveys themselves to see if this is correct? Seems to be a lot of demand for big things but no one has done much to see if the truth might be that no one just does them----period. No one does much marketing/advertising for these smaller models---and why not? No one is asking for them----
Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe the real answer could be that we just want to put out what we wanna put out?
Bob
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The middle-aged modelers who grew up watching Geeps might not be into steam, but the kids sure are, and the 20 or 30-somethings seem to have an interest, too...it will be interesting to see what develops out of that in a few years.
One thing about the kit manufacturers is that there were the same four, then three, for a long time, and not much of a pattern. (speaking of the major HO steam-kit makers).
Varney saw the 1950s RTR boom and jumped right in, cheaping their line out aggressively...too aggressively. You can still buy the plastic cars. They're Life-Like's trainset line.
Mantua did brilliantly well during that same era, with high-quality engineering and innovation. Then came Consolidated Foods, which just wanted a bargain-priced marketing tool. A between-the-lines reading tells the rest of the story...the Tylers bought it back, and for the next 13 years there were reissues, new models, and lots of upgrades. The Tyco cheaping out (such as PM-1s in Mikados) was reversed.
In 1990 Eric Tyler became VP. The next year came the Superbowl Express. Then came smoke. In 1993 the kits went away. In 1996 the horrible high-priced Collectibles came. And now Model Power has the tooling...44 years to build it up, 7 years to kill it dead, 13 years to bring it back, and 11 years to kill it again.
MDC I don't know much about. I think the owner just gradually wound things down, until selling to Horizon, who didn't have any interest in kits, I guess. They did keep upgrading the line, practically up to the end of kit production, which is probably why they can still succeed as RTR.
Bowser snapped up kit tooling for years, and kept working on the lines, upgrading them, and introducing new kits, until the B6. It's a bit early for a full PM, but there does seem to be a rather steep shift in direction after that. Even their famously stoic full-page steam ads in MR started going away. (Contrasting MDC's utterly brash copy was always fun.)
Really, the only trend is that these were all smallish family businesses, which rarely pass to the next generation without incident. This has happened all along, but what the difference is now is that new ones haven't yet jumped into the void...the current mfrs are not and never have been interested in making kits.
Bob Sandusky The REASON there aren't many today is because the manufacturers couldn't sell them. They just aren't that much in demand. The generation who can actually remember when Steam rode the rails and the diesel was the new kid on the block is greying (if not outright dying). To many of today's modelers 1st generation diesels are some kind of antique.
The REASON there aren't many today is because the manufacturers couldn't sell them. They just aren't that much in demand. The generation who can actually remember when Steam rode the rails and the diesel was the new kid on the block is greying (if not outright dying).
To many of today's modelers 1st generation diesels are some kind of antique.
This response by Bob has made me think a little bit more about the relitive popularity of steam locomotive models in the world of those who currently model trains.
Like many others, I model the transition era - specifically, 1949. I grew up with steamers and first generation diesels were the new kids on the block - flash critters
Anyway, in order to detail an 0-6-0 correctly for the SAL, I asked a question on the ACL,SAL, SCL modelers group with no luck/response. Many of the folks contributing to this Group are extremely knowledgeable people, yet none seemed to have an answer for me. On thinking about this I realsied that most topics, questions and answers on the ACL, SAL, SCL Modelers Group related to rolling stock and diesel locomotives - very little if any posts, other than mine, relating to the venerable steamer. I don't know if this is something that relates to this group alone or is indicitive of model railroading locomotive interest and preferences generaly.
If this is so then perhaps it could be a reason for the decling availability of Steam locomotive models and kits.
Just a thought.
TwinZephyrA major reason why smaller steam locomotive models have been slow sellers is due to many of them suffering from less-than-stellar quality
Equine plumage---the demand is there. They did not put that much effort into selling/making the dang things in the first place. And even if what you do say is the case then that is all a dang excuse for another way to avoid doing the work----
Why do people think model train manufacturer/importers produce items which are expected to be most in demand by their customers? It is far more likely model train businesses produce items that the owner and/or key employees want for themselves with the hope they can then sell enough of the product to cover production costs.
A major reason why smaller steam locomotive models have been slow sellers is due to many of them suffering from less-than-stellar quality.
What you are seeing the realities of a capitalist market.
When I got into model railroading as an adult there were TONS of steam models available in HO from a large number of manufacturers.
Its sad but true those models wouldn't have gone away if they had been hot sellers. They weren't so people who want to stay in business are going to make what they think is going to sell. Want a particular steamer, start an email campaign to get it produced, enough emails and they'll make them.
But then you had better by them or they won't pay attention to you next time.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL CAZEPHYRFDT has the USRA Mikado's on a two for one sale. Nice smaller locomotive and they can't give them away. It could be that too many have been imported over the past few years and the market is satisfied for now. The only ones on the two for one sale are the "left overs" in roadnames nobody wants, fact is on this latest run of Mikes from BLI, undecorated was one of the first things to sell out, as did a number of other roadnames. The two for one sale is just another example of BLI being undercapitalized and having to give away product to move the rest of it quickly. Not the best business model in my opinion. Sheldon
CAZEPHYRFDT has the USRA Mikado's on a two for one sale. Nice smaller locomotive and they can't give them away. It could be that too many have been imported over the past few years and the market is satisfied for now.
The only ones on the two for one sale are the "left overs" in roadnames nobody wants, fact is on this latest run of Mikes from BLI, undecorated was one of the first things to sell out, as did a number of other roadnames.
The two for one sale is just another example of BLI being undercapitalized and having to give away product to move the rest of it quickly. Not the best business model in my opinion.
I agree that they are ones that left over but they still are a deal to anyone wanting smaller steam. This type of sale has been going on with the BLI products dating back to the first big blow out sale about four years ago when the founder left the company. I picked up several PCM Big Boys for very little money with and without lettering along with several other models. The Mikado's can be decaled for any road after the other names are removed.
CZ
jguess733I'm fairly certain that if you are paying someone hourly that they will be able to move a lot more product if they are simply breaking pieces from a mold and putting them into boxes than if they were stuck puttying together one piece of rolling stock together at a time. And I know there is a demand for kits because I can't count the number of posts pertaining to lack of kits.
I've haven't worked directly in manufacturing, but I have worked in construction and electronics project planning and aircraft maintenance.
I would agree that producing a kit takes less assembly labor. But kits have much higher QC and support costs. It's a lot easier to ensure all the parts are on an assembled car or locomotive than making sure all the parts (and the right numbers of them) are in the kit box. Downstream, after the model has been sold, a certain percentage of defective RTR will get returned. The cheap and easy way out is to just replace the defective model - that way you don't have to have any skilled staff to trouble-shoot and repair. Bachmann does this pretty well. With a kit, there is no way around a skilled staff (is often one person or less for smaller manufacturers) to hold the hands of those who got in over their heads, and to replace parts that got broken, omitted, or lost either at assembly or in the modeler's hands. And even if a few $$ are charged for replacement parts in some cases, support is going to be a loss center, not a profit center. Also, a larger parts stock is required for kit support than for RTR support because of breakage or damage that occurs due to modeler rather than factory error.
A saving grace for kits is that the best estimates are that 75% of kits bought never get opened (according to a British model railroading magazine poll in the '80s or '90s). My shelves attest to the validity of the estimate. Obviously, these unopened kits have no support costs.
Overall, my semi-educated guess is that the total costs to the manufacturer for a plastic kit are about the same for RTR and kits. For craftsman type kits that require more assembly labor and higher skill levels for assembly than plastic, kits are likely cheaper to produce than RTR. But the manufacturer can charge a 20% or greater premium for RTR vs kit. Hence, the dearth of new tooling being produced as plastic kits.
my thoughts and experiences
Big famous steam always seem to get the money and sales. FDT has the USRA Mikado's on a two for one sale. Nice smaller locomotive and they can't give them away. It could be that too many have been imported over the past few years and the market is satisfied for now.
I would like to see all sizes of locomotives available to us. The PRR E6 and G5 would be a great choice for my money if BLI could see their way to make that model.
Jason
Modeling the Fort Worth & Denver of the early 1970's in N scale