The Coffee Shop (a place to chat) Est. 2004

[egmurphy]

Phil

Glad to see you're still on line, and high and (fairly) dry. At least inside the house. [:D]While the winds have dropped some, the slow movement of the storm probably means you guys will really get dumped on with the rain.

Yeah I know what you mean about it being too small. It's really too small for me too! Unfortunately the space available pretty well dictated N unless I just wanted a shelf switching layout. While that works for some, it just wasn't what I wanted.

Election day down here. It's an off year election, so only some governors (including our state), some reps, and local officials like mayors. I can't vote (not being a citizen here - but I am ready to send in my absentee ballot for the November elections NOB) but I've got to run DW over to the polls in a bit.

Looks like a nice day outside. The coffee is pretty good this morning.

All the best,

Ed

[der5997]

QUOTE: Originally posted by egmurphy

Phil Yeah I know what you mean about it being too small. It's really too small for me too! Unfortunately the space available pretty well dictated N unless I just wanted a shelf switching layout. While that works for some, it just wasn't what I wanted.

'Morning everyone. Bright and sunny here (we get what's left of Frances on Wednesday, they say) . The ladies left for their trip, so I'm in charge.[:D]

Ed. Your reason for N fits my case exactly. An odd shaped bedroom was available for trains, and the basement is unworkable, too damp and too low a ceiling for comfort, or guests. So I decided to go for the smaller scale and get more running room. What I need now is one of t hose optivisor things[:p]

Time to get lunch started and on to the "Honey Do" list of things in the potting shed and yard. [sigh]

Odd that Frances lost strength while out over the warmer ocean. Something to be very much thankful for. Still looks vicious from what's showing on the weather channel. We continue to pray for all in its path.
Blessings,

[Anonymous]

Well Ed, it looks like your H(orribly) O(versized) joke may be true. I'm thinking of moving to N scale for the time being because a 4x8 would barely be able to have the room for my steamer's minimum radius, and I think that a 4x8 with 3 or 4 industries just wouldn't be that fun, also I want to take advantage of DCC's features, plus have the space to actually run multiple trains. There's a fairly good selcetion of CB&Q and Northern Pacific in N, anyways. What little HO equipment I got will just have to wait until I have a huge basement for them (Or will I be hooked on N by then? "Once you go N, you never go back again")... So Ed, how much will an ABBA set of F's or some hood-unit eqivalant pull in N, and can you still get metal wheelsets and sound decoders in N?

[Anonymous]

Good Morning All:

Fla Phil:
I'm so glad that the winds have slowed down before landfall now if you can just handle the water. They just had a report on the weather channel and I saw a bearing on "Ivan". They said that he is running farther south then "Frances" so this one may be a Gulf of Mexico storm. If that's the case Ed or I will have fun with that one.

Ed:
My train room is about 13' X 16' and the layout loops are 10' X 13'. I have a double loop that raises 6 1/4 inches to go over one of my staging areas. But only the bottom loop is done so I do get to run a little bit. Along the long wall, it is 14' long, I couldn't go all the way because I needed 2' to service the wall mounted air conditioner. So I used that area for three staging tracks with my branch line end over it. I'm trying to figure out how to use "timesaver" for the layout of the town. I've built a Sydum "three stall roundhouse" that I want to use there since I spent so much time soldering that darn thing together. I've got a Walthers (in the box) and a Diamond scale turntable about 3/4 done for the engine service facility. I didn't like the way the last Diamond scale worked, I was building this for a friend, when he died his wife gave it to me. They are both 90'. For the main yard I'm going to stop by Custom Model Railroad builders and look at their 135' table, if I like it I may bring it home. The 135' is small enough to fit the space and will turn all of my locos except the 2-10-4's. If I put 2 facing one direction and 2 facing the other direction I wont have to worry about turning them and they wont be running the branch.

I was thinking about taking some pictures of the layout with the "new" digital camera but I don't know how to put them on the forum. We've owned the camera for two years and the first pictures I took were of the UP challenger when it came through Beaumont on it's way to the Lone Star Convention this summer. As you guessed I'm not much of a picture taking guy.

If you have a fax machine, give me the number (in an e-mail at [e-mail]) and I'll fax you a CRUDE drawing of what is done. After all I just have an idea as to how this layout is going to end. Remember those three feed wires that I hooked to the track a few days ago, well last night I got them hooked to the feeder line. If you don't get working I may get through ahead of you HA HA HA. The train running got in the way of the railroad building. I've got a Proto 2-8-8-2 and that engine just mesmarizzes (SP) me. Just pronounce it
like it's spelled, it means spellbinding.

John:
Thanks for the tip about stripping the plywood and then trying to straighen it out. I'm a firm believer in the fact that sometimes "we are so close to the problem, we can't see an easy solution". I was lamenting about loosing the whole sheet and didn't even think about cutting it and then trying to fix it. I don't like to splice my subroadbed in the curves and this is what I bought this piece for, as most of the rest of the layout has been "cookie cutter" done. I sure was unhappy about having to buy another sheet of 3/4" plywood as that stuff is expensive. I did find out that all of that fex track that I've been buying over the last three years isn't going to get this layout done. So I guess it's back to the LHS for some more track. I wish I had someone close to split a box with because I probably only need about 30 to 35 more pieces. I'm trying to figure out now how to control the switches and track feeders on the upper town as the clearance isn't enough for the wires and the tortises underneath. I think that I'm going to use Tortise remotes for the switch machines and run the wires on top just under the plaster and the buildings. You know how my advanced planning goes. Really I'm an engineer by education and occupation so by the time I get around to building, I've got a pretty good handle on the problems and how to solve them. I have no one here to bounce ideas off so why do elabarite (SP) drawings, I just sketch it to death. Their comes a time when I need to get past the "drawing" stage. I think that this is the problem with a lot of newbies, they don't have the courage to just dive in.

Tom:
You moved from Fla to get away from the storms but Frances loves you and wants to see you. I hope that your kids fare OK. The wind should be gone before it gets to you but it's probably going to bring a lot of rain.

I've got to go get lunch started so

Have a blessed day and remember SANTA FE ALL THE WAY
Bob

[Noah Hofrichter]

Ed, I like your new signature. Neat patch.

Not much on the mid-northern front. Got the track So I can run trains around it again! One minor problem though. The last spare power pack I have to run accessory lights and such just blew out. My citizens will be left in the dark for the while, and the signals on the new passing track don't work now, so the dispatcher(me) will have is hands full making meets!!

Noah

[fec153]

Hello again. Started to reply about 10:30 but power surges made it prudent to stay
off. Wind steadied upwards 30 and mph. Gusts much higher,rain steady and heavy.
In a bit of a lull now.Winds about 20.
Ed-I speak enough espanol to get my face slapped. Even so would like to be with you.
I can clean normal track like no one else.
Ivan is following Charleys track. Charley-3 Frances-6 Ivan-9 See the pattern?
N.P.Richy is in Frances path. Good luck!
Phil

[Junctionfan]

Hi Phil its me again.

How are doing down there? I don't know how much longer you will have power so I hope you get this message; hope you are O.K

Stay safe

Andrew

[fec153]

Afternoon Andrew. Doing o.k.. Haven't lost power as yet but have had many surges.
Stayed off line . My area has been very lucky. Medium high winds with some high gusts.
Some low areas and places in the Ocala Nat. Forest are in flood zones. Most of them
live in mobile homes off clay roads. Those people were told to evacuate and go to
shelters. Those roads become impassible, not even jackassable. Maybe 3/4 4x4
could get thru. As Frances moves west, there is a chance we will get higher winds.
Thanks for all the good wishes and prayers.
Phil.

[dave9999]

Phil,
Good to hear that you are OK. Looks like we might be next on her hit list. I've been
watching, and the winds have slowed. Maybe she won't stay in the Gulf long enough
to get back up to speed. The storm sure is big. Once we start seeing rain up here
in Pensacola, It will still be drowning South Central Florida. Good Luck. Dave

P.S. I see Tampa is getting hit pretty hard right now. Hope Antonio is all right.

[Anonymous]

Best Wishes to all of you in Florida.

Play it as safe as you can.

Good Luck.

May God be with you.

[krump]

Florida folks - you're in our thoughts and prayers on this side of the continent too.
God Bless You through the storm(s).

cheers,

[fec153]

Hi gang- My county, Lake, is under curfew from 2 p.m. till 7 a.m. monday. Ivan is in
the record books as the fastest growing storm so far out at sea. Us'ns am in DEEP
DO-DO. We are still getting strong winds and stronger gusts. Rain still falling. 45
degree angle. Getting cabin fever. Think I'll run my track cleaner car around the layout.
As bad as I may have it, The folks along the coast and elsewhere have it ten times
worse. The snail pace of Florence is hurting everyone. Once she gets to the gulf, she
will most likely pickup strength and hit the panhandle. Keep praying for all of us.
Phil

[Junctionfan]

I heard on Buffalo new that some jackass was caught trying to loot a supermarket in Florida. He said he was kicked out of his home was there seeking shelter. He had white gloves on. Why would anybody go so low as to take something from someone who has already been victimised by mother nature is beyond me. I say shoot the bastards.

[fec153]

Junctionfan- The sheriff of Orange county was just interviewed. All the looters in his
county have been arrested. Orange county is due south of Lake cnty. and Orlando
is the main city.
Phil.

[egmurphy]

Evening group,

Glad to hear you maintained power, Phil, at least through your last posting. Going through one hurricane seems like it would be enough, but now two big ones. I expect that Dave will get a good dose of rain in Pensacola too, even if the winds don’t pick up the rains will likely continue to be torrential.

And it looks like Ivan’s predicted track will be through Florida also, although it’s still a bit early to tell. You’re right, it sure did grow fast. Seems like it was a tropical storm yesterday, now it has 125 mph winds. Here is the forecast track on Ivan.

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/ftp/graphics/AT09/refresh/AL0904W5+GIF/052103W5.gif

Hey – attention Coffee Shop patrons – I posted my masterwork of switcher detailing over on the Sunday Night Photo Fun thread. If you get time, try taking a look. It’s the third post in the thread.

John, I got a cheap optivisor at a train show because I wanted to try one out but wasn’t sure I’d like it. It’s probably one of my most valuable tools. I’ll probably upgrade to a better one. I no longer worry that I look like a dork with it on.

QUOTE: Chris commented: Well Ed, it looks like your H(orribly) O(versized) joke may be true. I'm thinking of moving to N scale for the time being because a 4x8 would barely be able to have the room for my steamer's minimum radius, and I think that a 4x8 with 3 or 4 industries just wouldn't be that fun, also I want to take advantage of DCC's features, plus have the space to actually run multiple trains.... So Ed, how much will an ABBA set of F's or some hood-unit equivalant pull in N, and can you still get metal wheelsets and sound decoders in N?

While those are questions for people more knowledgeable than I, I’d venture to guess (based on what my one PA diesel will pull) that a good ABBA unit would pull more cars than you can fit on a 4x8. I believe you can get metal wheelsets (NWSL?), but I’m not sure. Some sound decoders, the main problem is fitting them in, from what I hear. But I’m a straight DC guy.

Bob, sounds like your layout is much more complicated than mine (not that hard to do). I’m envious that you have room for a turntable and roundhouse. Nope, no fax machine. We’ll figure out some way to post the layout drawing. I think I can walk you through the posting photos bit. Do you already have them stored on your computer?

Just for yuks, here's a rough plan of my layout. It's very close, but not exact. This was done on RTS software using standard sectional track sizes. I'm changing curves and lengths slightly with flex track. But the spurs and tracks are all shown in their approximate locations. Note: if you click on the trackplan, it will resize and be more legible.



“Remember those three feed wires that I hooked to the track a few days ago, well last night I got them hooked to the feeder line. If you don't get working I may get through ahead of you HA HA HA.” Well now Bob, I’ll have you know that I glued down over 2 feet of track today, so don’t slow down and watch the trains too much!!

Thanks for noticing the NdeM logo, Noah. I tried to use the gif format of the logo that I have as my avatar over at TrainBoard, but couldn’t get the gif version to load properly. So I went for the scanned jpg version. It’s almost as good, and better than what I had before (which was nothing).

That’s about all for this afternoon. We were out visiting distant family all afternoon so I didn’t get anything substantial done. I need to go glue something down to keep up with Bob.

Hasta luego,

Ed

[der5997]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TEFFY

I'm trying to figure out how to use "timesaver" for the layout of the town.

I was thinking about taking some pictures of the layout with the "new" digital camera but I don't know how to put them on the forum.

Bob: I've bent my timesaver around a bit. The two left hand side tracks will end up in the same loco or car maintenance building, and the two right hand ones go to different industries (as yet undesignated, but one's probably a small wharf (fish canning?)

Not taking photos is a family failing. It doesn't matter if we take the camera along, it almost always gets forgotten when it should be used. [:I] I've got thte digital sitting beside the computer printer in the hope that I'll remember to take some "as-it-goes-along" shots of the layout.

Getting pics onto the forum was for me a 2 stage process (stages can have lots of steps however[:D]) Stage 1 is to get the pics hosted on a web site. I don't have one myself, so I used www.railimages.com You have to register, and they make their living by advertising and user donations. Once registered, you can upload pics. They tell you how.

Once you have an album with at least one photo in it, you can post it on the forum by using the forum code for an image before and after this address http://www.railimages.com/albums/yourusername/xyz.jpg where xyz is the identifier for the photo in the album. (Can't put the img and /img in their square brackets, or the program goes looking for that photo in yourusernames' non-existant album, and throws a fit![banghead]) In the case of the photo of the timesaver, the xyz=abi You can check that out by going to www.railimages.com/gallery/johnwood, scrolling through the album to the one about the timesaver, click on Properties and check the address. You'll see it ends in abi.

I've just previewed this post to see if the photo is there. It is, but the text is all over the page. I hope it translates onto the forum OK.

Time for tea, I got some facia pieces cut while sawing supports for the tomatoes and the grape vine this afternoon. Don't have urge to work out putting bicolour LEDs into thte facia to replace the 4 incandescents that show track occupancy in my lower level tunnel. I doubt the tea will make all that much difference, but I may ge to see what's on TV, and come upstairs again out of boredom![:p]

I'll say goodnight anyway, and we continue to remember all Floridians in our prayers. Incidentally, the BBC World News reports Typhoons in the Pacific with winds of about 140 mph. Let's remember those folks over there too.
God Bless.

[fec153]

emeraldisle- didn't realize you are south of me on the coast. Glad your o.k.. My 'hood
didn't lose power at all. I'll be helping next door get big tree limb off his roof. I thought
I heard some dull thumps last night. Now I know I did. Still to windy to do anything.
Coffee time.
Phil

[lupo]

Morning All!
weather is serving a rough deal to all of you living in the south-east of the US again!
I wish you all the best in dealing with the storm and all other unpleasant things caused by the hurricane., those windspeeds ruin everything !
we get our share of storms as well 3 or 4 times a year, but they are not worse than 11bft ( not more than 74 mph ) a mere draft compared to the windspeeds those hurricanes produce. ( not to mention those vast amounts of rain )
take care and STAY SAFE !

Lupo

[der5997]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lupo

we get our share of storms as well 3 or 4 times a year, but they are not worse than 11bft ( not more than 74 mph )

'morning all! Just had my unvirtual coffee.

Lupo, bft is new to me. We have kilometres in Canada, so kph I've got used to. Hang about a bit, is that "Beaufort Scale?" I seem to remember when I lived in the UK gales were reported in smallish numbers on the Beaufort Scale. 11 sounds fierce.

Ed. Thanks for the "heads up" on the optivisor thing. [;)] I should have known that they come in different qualities. There's one on sale currently at (I think) Internet Trains for about $20 if you buy over $50 of other things. Anyone know if that is a good deal? As to dorkieness, "My face I don't mind it, for I am behind it, it's the people outside get the jar!"[X-)][(-D]

I've wanted to use that blindfold smilie, but didn't have a reason until now[:D]
However I don't wear baseball caps, as I really do look a dork in those things.

More yard work looms, and on top of that, the grass has to be cut or TEFFY won't be able to find the house [:-^]

Have a peacefilled day.

[lupo]

John, here is a link to the bft ( beaufort ) windscale including kilometres ( we use kilometers as well ). http://www.knmi.nl/voorl/verken/english/bft_e.html
11 is pretty heavy, but most buildings are made of stone, to manage that kind of winds.
The oldest building in the town where I live was build around 1400 and is still standing. only some rooftiles blow off once in a while during a storm.
Latest big disaster was 50 years ago, when all the dikes broke during a force 12 storm, accompanied by extra high tide, 75% of the island I live was flooded and 1800 people lost their life. Nowadays we are protected by dikes twice as high as the were 50 years back ( 16 tf above the 1953 max level ) and by massive flood barriers to keep the water out . Allthough I live about 15 feet below sealevel I feel quite safe.

QUOTE: Originally posted by TEFFY

LUPO:
Your package is in the mail, the post office said about ten days to two weeks even with airmail. I put the whole address that you gave me including the street and P O Box.

they must have been running a fast clock at USPS , the package arrived today, I put the sign up without delay !
Great, thanks a lot !

The weekend was great, gonna make a report later on!

take care &
stay safe!

[der5997]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lupo
The oldest building in the town where I live was build around 1400 and is still standing. only some rooftiles blow off once in a while during a storm.
Latest big disaster was 50 years ago, when all the dikes broke during a force 12 storm, accompanied by extra high tide, 75% of the island I live was flooded

I remember that storm, it flooded much of the low lying parts of eastern England as well. (East Anglia as it was then. [They've changed the names of so much of England that I'm not sure what to call it now[V]] ) thanks for the link BTW.

We have a friend from England who was a grade school teacher in Ontario. She usually had trouble with her students believing her when she said that some of the buildings in her home town were from 1300 or 1400. The children have no points of reference for that sort of thing. Most buildings here are less than 50 years old, or are 100-150 tops.
Kris and I were visiting from Canada when her village church (St. Mary's, Hadlow, Kent) celebrated its millenium in 1975. They held a service of Compline with 10 or so village men dressed as early medieaval monks singing the service in Latin. [8D].
The festivities also included "Dwyle Flonking". Come on you lurking Brits, or Ex Pats, tell us what that is.[:p]

Got a small job done last night that's been bugging me for some time. My grain handling facility lacked a loading bay. It's all just mock ups, but here's the shed.

Regards, John.

[Anonymous]

i belive this is going to be my first star if not sorry............[:D][:D][:D][:D][%-)][%-)][swg][swg][swg][swg]

[Noah Hofrichter]

Ed, saw your post on the other page, looks really good. I like it alot. By the way, as far as the NdeM logo goes, have you tried (assuming your in windows) the logo into paint shop, and when you save it again convert it to a jpeg before saving instead of a gif. It works for me. Also have been watching the forcst for Ivan. The say it's still to early but the weather dudes were talking about it posibly going towards Mexico instead of Florida, hope it doesn't come near your area at all. Do you get that kind of thing over there much?

Got to get going, going railfanning in the Dells on the CP line tonight, full report tomarrow.

Noah

[egmurphy]

Afternoon guys,

Wow, not much activity in the last 24, guess most of you must be enjoying the long weekend. Today wasn't a holiday down here so we didn't have the day off, [:(] well, I mean yeah I did, but I'm retired. So I have every day off.

Thanks for the suggestion on the logo Noah. It wasn't quite that simple as the version of 'Paint' that I have with my computer (not 'Paint Shop') didn't give me the option to save as a jpg. But I jumped back and forth through a couple of other programs and got it done. Similar but looks a bit better.

John - nice explanation of posting photos for Bob. At least it gives him a good starting point. Nice cardboard mockup of the grain elevator too. I don't know what kind of optivisor Internet trains is offering, but $20 seems reasonable. Micromark has one on sale for about $35 with headlights!!

"Dwyle Flonking" huh, sounds kind of kinky to me............. [:D]

Noah, yeah, we get hurricanes in here. Once they get into the western Gulf of Mexico it's usually a toss whether they go north through Houston, northwest through Brownsville, or west through us. But we're several miles from the shore and high enough not to have to worry about storm surge. The house is all brick and concrete (not just brick veneer over a wood frame) so the worst that can reasonably happen to us is to lose power or maybe a window or two. Now having said that I hope I haven't jinxed us for this year.

Okay, for those of you who haven't gone over to the Sunday Foto Fun thread and looked at my switcher, please do so. This is a blatant request for a few attaboys after all the pain and agony I went through with that little sucker.

Hasta luego

Ed

[der5997]

QUOTE: Originally posted by adirondackrr

i belive this is going to be my first star if not sorry............[:D][:D][:D][:D][%-)][%-)][swg][swg][swg][swg]

5.5 posts in 10 days....and you did get the star! Not all in the Coffe Shop, so what else holds your attention?
I'm off to look at the Sunday photo fun thing at Ed's urging. Have not been there before, but before I go, Dwyle Flonking, 101..

This involves getting wet with old beer. (well, you wouldn't want to waste good suds on this past time.[:-,])

You need a bucket of old beer, a short stick and a rag for dipping in the beer and flinging with the stick. The rest of the participants form a circle around the person with bucket/stick/rag. They each have a piece of rope/old rag/ strip of parchment with the landlord's latest rent demand (this is a medieaval game remember) which they hold onto so that the circle is made by each person joined to the next . The circle rotates, and suitable cries, jeers, insults and inuendos are hurled at the Dwyle Flonker in the middle. He responds by trying to hit anyone in the circle with the beery rag.
I think that whoever is hit then has to be the Dwyle Flonker, and this goes on until no one can stand it any longer, or the Shire Reeve's (Sherrif) men arrive, whichever comes sooner.
Kinky, or stinky, depending on your point of view.[(-D]

Have a good evening,

[Anonymous]

Phil (fec153) thanks for the e-mail and I hope you are safe. Been out of pocket for about 6 weeks due to various issues--nothing serious, but time consuming. I hope you and yours are safe, as well as all Floridians. Don't have Direct TV but have listened to numerous SRV CD's recently.

On a lighter note, have you ever heard any "ArcAngels"? Chris Layton and Tommy Shannon (the rhythm section of Double Trouble) with a couple of other Texas musicians (Charlie Sexton and Doyle Bramhall III). Great album with a tribute song for SRV.
Hope you are safe.

P.S. Krump, thank you for the e-mail, haven't forgotten, just trying to play catch up.

SRVfan

[Anonymous]

The benchwork for the layout is finished other than sanding and varnishing, however I might have to later edo it because a 4x8 is pretty bulky for the space it's going to be in. I am almost sure I'm going to have to move to N scale, and build N-trak modules to put them on. I had second thoughts about HO when I got into the hobby about 3 years ago, but I just kept getting the HO stuff, now it looks like I'm either going to just have to store it away for a while or sell it. My dad just told me we could put the layout in our shed, however I still have the urge to just start completly over, with modules and and N scale CB&Q/BN layout. It's pretty frustrating, but it looks like I just built myself a $110 workbench, not a layout.

[Junctionfan]

I watched the news and heard that now anywhere from Florida to South Carolina is under a tornado watch or warning. Good god man, how do manage do live in places prone to such bad natural disasters. You folk are alot more brave than I would be with thease storms. Home you folk stay safe.

On a brighter note, as I type this my damn cat is snoring lound. I had no idea that a cat that small could produce a snore that loud.

[Anonymous]

Junction Fan- I'm always surprised at how loud my cats can be when they purr. The loudest one happens to be the smallest of our cats.

This last week was crazy. It was the first week of class and I didn't even have time to work on the layout at all. I just bought thee MRC prodigy advanced and it's still i n the box. But maybe I can find some time to make it to the basment again. On to real railroads. A new cabooses showed up in the yard in akron, ohio this week so now we have two. I gotta scope it out sommee more. Then the SD70ACe came through town and I missed them[:(]
Andrew

[philnrunt]

Phil- glad to see you are standing tall with all of the weather hitting you. In Latvian, Phil means "Fears not the lightning flash,nor the thunderous boomations" At least that could be what it means. Sorta. Anyway, hang in there, it HAS to get better someday!
Ed- You 'e went High Tech! An NdeM logo! Someday I'm going to take a handfull of Valium and try to do special things with my 'puter. The animated UP logos and CR trains and Acela running smilies down impress me a bunch, but I know I would end up smashing up the 'puter if I tried it. And I checked out your trackplan, looks like a fine and relaxing plan to me, one that will give you hours of enjoyable running.Keep up the good work.
Got to see a light grey CN diesel leading a CSX freight the other day, as usual, the camera was buried in the back under dogfood, catfood and food for thought. It was a new scheme for me.
Christopher-I built one of those workbenches myself once! About halfway through building it, I knew it wasn't what I needed, so voila', a place to cram tools and junk.
There is more I was going to say to more folk, but it's in the wee hours, and my mind is drawing moisture...no, no, a blank. Yeah, thats it, a blank.
All take care, keep your heads down and your ammo dry.