"NO TRESPASSING: RAILROAD PROPERTY" Every rail line has those signs on ther tracks, and yet a lot of people ignore them to get photos of the locomotives and cars we model. I am not talking about standing near a crossing and takeing photos, standing roadside to take pictures, nor standing trackside, but climbing in signal towers (without permission, railroads may allow it on abandoned ones, with an official present) and walking past no trespassing sighns to acess a yard (like the one above) or track. I have seen this happen many times. To you, what is right and what is wrong? To the people that work on railroads, can you send letters to the railroad asking permission to do so? I think this is a touchy subject, so lets try to keep the fighting to a mininum, and let's see if we can get this sorted out. (I am not yelling at the ones that do so, I'm just trying to figure out things)
This brings to mind a story that happened here about 10 years ago.
a "gentleman" owned about 200 acres of property in the countryside near here. He had the land all properly posted and regularly "patroled" it to keep trespassers off of it which he had every right to do. durring hunting season one year he was arrested for trespassing on posted land, someone elses. His excuse, when in court, was that he did not think the signs applied to him.
It's pretty much black and white, isn't it? If it's posted No Trespassing, don't go there. If you can see something from a public place it would be in the public domain so take your picture. If you can get persmission to go somewhere special, wherever that may be...be as courteous and polite as possible.
How hard is that?
Dan
Nothing irks me more then outsiders comin' to da 'hood and running amok...I seen this twice in the last 3 weeks..A group of "railfans" in a SUV parked in a area they had no business,broke out their lawn chairs and set up camp..The second time a bozo parked is car about 3 feet from the track..
This type of behavior makes it bad for everybody and draws attention from the railroad and local police.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
CNW 6000It's pretty much black and white, isn't it? If it's posted No Trespassing, don't go there. If you can see something from a public place it would be in the public domain so take your picture. If you can get persmission to go somewhere special, wherever that may be...be as courteous and polite as possible. How hard is that?
Not very hard at all.
Grin, Stein
If it is posted NO TRESPASSING, then keep off of the property. No one has the right to trespass on other peoples property. That being said, it does not even have to be posted No Trespassing for you to be arrested. There are still Federal laws on the books that make it illegal for people to trespass on railroad property. I think the minimum fine is $25,000 and there used to be an imprisonment term that went along with that. Sure we see people trespassing on railroad property everyday, but it is still illegal. Hell, I walked three miles on track yesterday. Don't do as I do, do as I say........ I have never seen anyone arrested by the railroad police (do they even still exist?) for walking the tracks or going across a yard. I just hope I am never stopped for doing so.
Robert H. Shilling II
If its posted keep out. Do your homework to find out who you can ask to get permission to observe the things you 'd like to. If not........too bad. BILL
Yes there are still railroad police, if anything they are more of them now because of 9-11 than there had been in recent years. Things like theft from railcars is still a huge problem, plus the ongoing graffiti nightmare.
Yes you can write to a railroad and ask for permission to access a site to take pictures. (I would maybe try checking the railroad's website or look them up in a phone book and give them a call first, to find out who to send the letter to etc.) They may send you a form to fill out and sign (and perhaps get notorized) stating that you agree to obey all safety rules and such, and that you are removing the railroad from all liability if you get hurt while there. If they OK it, you'll probably get something back in writing stating the day and time that you can be in such-and-such location. Be sure to have anything like that with you when are there taking pictures, so you can show it to anyone who questions your presence.
Note that some railroads never give out such permission to railfans or anyone for that matter. I recall one railroad that was very railfan friendly who made a 180 degree turnabout when some stuff was stolen out of their shops.
Obtain written permission, be equipped with hard hat, safety shoes, safety vest and safety googles. I was able to gain access to a Purdy Yard by inquiring with the railroad and the scrap company and making an appointment for the visit and attending a 15 minute safety briefing. You can count on one thing, you will be approached or even escorted, possibly detained until your credentials and authorization form (s) are verified, and this was pre 9/11. It has been my experience that abandoned right-of-ways are not railroad owned, many are set aside for future use or redevelopement by county/state or federal entities and best avoided. Being a idiot in my book involves climbing poles-signal mast and similar endevors.
Dave
If I'm in a working yard, I stay out of the posted areas. There's usually parking areas by most of the buildings that aren't off limits. I've had guys come out of the tower and look at me. I just wave and hold up my camera and they just wave and go back inside. They can see from the tower that I'm respecting their signs. Never had a problem.I've been approached by rail cops out on the lines and once they see I'm an adult taking pictures and not a graffiti vandal, they just say be careful and leave me alone.I've walked up and talked to engineers on stopped trains and never got an attitude from them.A lot of it has to do with your attitude.
I recall a thread posted by a then-regular forum contributor some time ago that chronicled his experience that started out railfanning and ended up in handcuffs. Especially in this security-keen post-9/11 world, if a railroad has a sign telling you to not go there, DON'T GO THERE. Pretty simple. They don't put those "No Trespassing" signs up just for kicks and giggles.
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
One day last week I was surfing some of the YouTube videos and I found a few that were made by some kid (not sure where at) but he is placing stuff on the railroad tracks and waiting for the train to go past and then filming what happened to the items. This is done on a CSX line somewhere. I thought about calling CSX and alerting them to this kid.
It is all very simple.
The signs cost money, but the railroads need them exactly where the public encounters them as part of an internal corporate policy. That policy is in turn derived from internal and external requirements that help them to maintain a successful business model with all its resident practises.
The internal requirements might be fluidity, keeping policing costs to a minimum, improving safety and morale...not just for would-be trespassers, but for those working just on the other side of that long string of signs. Externally, if the corporation must abide by state and federal mandates, there is a bona fide requirement. If insurances/underwriters require the posting of signs, they will be posted.
And the meaning of the signs should not be easily misunderstood. They mean that anyone found on company-owned property on one side of the line formed between any two such signs is liable to prosecution, that they will be subject to arrest, search, and seizure, and that if convicted in a court of law, they may be fined, imprisoned, or both.
BTW I'm still not sure what "chivalry" has to do with all this?? Did someone find a damsel in distress near a 'No Trespassing' sign or something??
As has been said so well before me: obey the signs and use common sense.
I'll tell you a little tale from back when I was just out of high school. I went to the CNW's Beverly Yard (Cedar Rapids). I parked outside the yard office, walked in and asked (very politely) if I could see the Yardmaster. Leonard was his name...a gruff sounding/gruff looking rail. I explained that I was a railfan and asked for his permission to go into the yard to take pictures. Leonard told me he was impressed that I came and asked him first, and complemented me on my demeanor/attitude (respectful, polite, professional). Unfortunately, he said, he couldn't let me. He told me a tale (never verified) about how "the last guy I let do that went and shot up s*** with a shot gun." He did tell me where the best places were to legally park to sit and watch.
He also gave me a stack of recently out-dated CNW Iowa Division stickers.
Long story short, IF you do end up meeting with RR officials seeking permission, be polite, be respectful, and don't be surprised/offended if the answer is NO. It might also help if you're not totally "geeked-out" when you go, in other words, if the uneducated general public can figure out you're "coo coo for choo choos," the RR guys might figure you're too "train happy" to operate safely on their turf as well. Leonard made fun of me a year later as I sat in my car, legally at the west end of the yard. As he drove by, he told the switch crew over the radio "why, he's even got a CNW hat on in there" with a chuckle.
My thoughts/opinions...yours may vary.
Whatever you do...do it safely 'eh?
Chris
The Cedar cRapids Industrial Branch: Proudly Shipping Yesterday's CrunchBerries Tomorrow!
I've collected pictures of plenty of "No Trespassing" signs over the years... but I do my best to respect the property and operations of the railroads. I confess there have been times when I've wandered past them to get a slightly better sun angle, or a little less underbrush in my picture, but even then, I keep a wide berth from the tracks.
I recall being near a right of way when a bulkhead flat passed that had a long srip of steel banding pop loose from a lumber load... If I'd been standing even 15 or 20' from the track, I'd have been cut in half.
The railroad is like the ocean... it can be fun to watch, and great to ride on, but always remember that it's much bigger than you, and will kill you if you're not smart about it.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
selector And the meaning of the signs should not be easily misunderstood. They mean that anyone found on company-owned property on one side of the line formed between any two such signs is liable to prosecution, that they will be subject to arrest, search, and seizure, and that if convicted in a court of law, they may be fined, imprisoned, or both.
Legally, there's no requirement that the railroad post the signs exactly on the edge of their right-of-way. A few years ago, I got chewed out by the local railroad police officer (yes, they definitely DO exist) for trespassing. He did not ticket me as a "first time" offender, but promised to do so if he ever caught me again. When I defended myself by claiming that I had not gone past the No Trespassing sign (I hadn't) he said it didn't matter because I was still on railroad property - he was right, I knew that I was on their property and had hoped the the "technicality" of not having passed the sign would cover me. Guess not. However, when I asked him where I legally can stand to take train photos, he helpfully replied that most public roadways include an easement approximately 8 ft off the edge of the road. As long as I stay inside that easement, then I should be OK. That's been my rule-of-thumb since.
A year ago, I got involved in the local Operation Lifesaver group as a presenter, and have now had several chances to work with "Larry the Railroad Cop". And from hearing his side of the story, it's clear that although he is obligated to protect the assets, liability, and reputation of his employer, he's personally interested in keeping the public, especially the kids, safe.
Tom
I always try to get permission before venturing near rail lines. Or, if I can't find anyone, I always respect the signs. It's simply not worth getting busted and/or hurt.
For example, even before 9/11, I'd head downtown to watch trains. From Pittsburgh's train station, you can not only see Amtrak, but NS and the little Allegheny Vally trains as well. Usually, in both directions. The first time I went down there, I asked the clerk at the Amtrak counter. She said that as long as I didn't do anything stupid, get in the way of station employees, or wander into the NS "yard" there, I was free to walk the platforms, and shoot as many photos as I wanted. As long as I followed those things, there wasn't going to be any trouble.
Even on the old Monongahela, then part of Conrail. Again, I asked at the "train station" in Waynesburg, PA. I simply asked when the next freight was coming, and if I could take some photos. Not only did I get permission, but also got details of other locations along the line.
Left Coast RailWhat is right:(Snip) not wearing proper safety gear.
Probably wouldn't hurt to wear light weight safety glasses while railfanning.After all many styles look like normal sun glasses.
shayfan84325I think the reason they are so concerned about trespassers is safety. When you consider the injuries that railroad equipment has inflicted over the years, you can see why. Railroads take a lot of pride in their safety performance and they work hard to sensitize their employees to safety; that's the reason they are so likely to approach trespassers in such a stern manner. My opinion is that the railroad's PR office may be able to give/sell you photos of equipment and facilities, as well as specs and history information. It may take some time (we're not exactly their priority), but it is the safe, respectful, and appropriate way to get info. In terms of taking your own "artistic" photos, I say stick to the public access locations: overpasses, foot-bridges, station platforms, adjacent city streets, etc. It's really about respecting the railroads' right to manage safety in what has been a very dangerous industry. They have made great improvements over the past 20 years and their crack-down on trespassers has likely been part of that improvement.
Shayfan,
We have to be "gritty realistic". The primary reason is "Liability". Unfortunately since the 1980s, thousands of litigation cases (many which people with common sense would call ridiculous and obscene) against the railroad industry have helped to increase liability insurance coverages through the roof. Examples:
1. The "good boy" who was killed trespassing on a Long Island Railroad main line when he and his buddies went through a hole in a fence to spray graffitti on a signal box. The boy is killed and the parents sue. ( Had it been me and I survived, my mother would have rammed her foot into my "rumble-seat" sideways, then made me apologize to the railroad brass)
2. The two idiot skateboarders that jumped on top of a boxcar in the northeast on an Amtrak line, and were shocked by the 11,000+ Volts overhead catenary wire. They sued Amtrak and won because of the lack of no trespassing signs.
3. Recently the woman who had her legs severed by a Florida East Coast freight train. She was walking on the main line listening to AN IPOD! The train hits her from behind, her legs are severed, but of course it's the FEC's fault and she sues!
In so many of these cases the railroads decide to settle which in the end is still a loss for them. Can't say I blame the railroads for being more paranoid today.
I have so many fond memories of bicycling onto Seaboard Coast Line Railroad yard areas and receiving friendly waves from pleasant crews that would openly converse with railfans, not mind photos and not look at you as a "foamer" or goofball. . Not to mention how many times I've been in locomotive cabs. But like Baldwin Centipede, those scenarios are gone now.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
As for me, I follow whatever the rules are. If it says no trespassing, I don't trespass. Thankfully where I railfan from is a public parking lot that just happens to be about 10ft from the tracks. Most of the times I just stand near my car, but on ocassion, I'll venture into the grass near the tracks, but whenever a train approaches I'll get back into the parking lot and watch from there. The train crews don't seem to mind me (or my 2 year old) standing out and watching them. 9 times out of 10 they'll give a friendly wave, and sometimes a little "horn salute" to us as we stand and watch and wave at them. Heck, we've even had the chance to stand up right next to the locomotive and chat with the engineer or conductor as they're doing the brake test after picking up and cutting loose a string of cars. I'd have to say that the entire thing is really about attitude. If you've got the right attitude with them, they'll have the right attitude with you.
Kinda OT, but its like when I get pulled over by a police officer (not very often, but hey, it happens). I'm always polite, respectful, and unless I honestly don't know what I did wrong, I'll even admit that I was going faster than the posted limit. I'd have to say that has gotten me out of more citations than probably anything else I do....