When I think of "model Railroading" I only think of HO scale, even though I have an old o27 but not running. I guess it's because I'm running HO, A question : what percentage of model railroading is HO?? there is zz, n, HOn3, HO, 027, G, and I'm sure I missed some. Is HO that much ahead of any of the others?
Essentially two-thirds of all model railroaders (which does not include Lionel, Flyer, Marx, et al. hobbyists as that is a separate hobby in itself) are in HO standard gauge (the vast majority), with a very small number in HO narrow gauge. N comprises around 25%-30% of the hobby and the rest total somewhat less than ten percent. If you doubt these figures, just look up the numbers reported by MR over the years. The percentages really haven't changed significantly in some years.
CNJ831
Don't know the percentages, but I think you are right, though I had Lionel as a kid, since I never got into a nice sceniced layout, I don't think of it as a model railroad. It is where many of us got our start though. I do believe HO is the largest segment, with N growing rapidly. S (what we ofter think of as American Flyer) seems to be holding its nitch and O has its followers, both 2 and 3 rail. Z has more offerings all the time, but I think they are still a pretty small percentage as it takes skill and ability to work with such small items. Garden seems to be doing well and I think a number of modelers have it for their summer model rr fix and another layout for the indoor months. The inbetween sizes seem to be nitch markets, there, but not large. Just my thoughts.
Hope everybody is having fun regardless how big their layout and whatever scale.
Ever heard of Lone Star Treble O? It is English obviously. My dad started buying me this stuff around 1962 (age 5). It is about the size of N scale and I had enough to fill a 5' x 10' layout. I pulled it out for my son about six years ago and he (I mean we) loved it so much that it started us on the road to our 15' x 24' HO layout. And my dear old long departed Dad is always at the layout with my son and I grinning ear to ear.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
CNJ,
Why would O gauge be considered a different hobby. Certainly there are O gauge railroads with the same level of detail as HO if not more. And the modelers can operate their trains just as HO operators do.
I'm curious.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse CNJ, Why would O gauge be considered a different hobby. Certainly there are O gauge railroads with the same level of detail as HO if not more. And the modelers can operate their trains just as HO operators do. I'm curious.
While I hate to presume for CNJ, O gauge Scale and Lionel O are two different animals. I dabbled early in O but saw early on I would probably never have the space to build what I wanted and the offerings for O scale were limited. I do have one O scale steam loco that I kept, and which graces a shelf in the train room, far away from wandering hands.
Bob
Both MR and RMC used to conduct periodic readership surveys of the hobby however I don't recall having seen one of these in many, many years. Therefore all anyone can do in an inquiry of this nature is venture the absolute wildest of WAGs.
The last surveys--from about the mid-80s I believe--accorded HO-Scale positioned at the head of the hobby with about 75% of active modelers; N-Scale, still relatively new--was about 15%; the remaining 10% was taken up by minority scales including Z-Scale which was in its infancy in those heady days of yesteryear. These figures were corroborated by allocated advertising and manufacturing dollars. Over the course of the next decade N-Scale showed about a 40% growth in popularity based upon advertising and manufacturing allocations while, at the same time, Z-Scale worked its way into the #3 position behind HO-Scale and N-Scale.
I would venture my WAG that the positions are thusly in the year of our Lord two thousand and nine:
HO-Scale . . . . . . . . . . 65%;
N-Scale . . . . . . . . . . . 21%;
Z-Scale . . . . . . . . . . .. 7%; and
Other-Scales . . . . . . . .. 7%.
I am certain that these figures will be disputed but, as I said, this is only my WAG. Those of us in that 35% minority bracket always wish that HO-Scale would get pummelled severely about the head and shoulders resulting in increased asset allocation to our particular scale. Will HO-Scale ever become one of those minority scales as is frequently prognosticated? Not before Jay Bush sells the "Secret Family Recipe!"
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Chip, there is O and S-scale model railroading and then there are the classic O and S-gauge "tinplate" trains by Lionel, Flyer, Marx and a few others. The former are recognized as a part of the adult model railroading hobby, while the latter have long been regarded as simply children's toys.
Although in the early days of the hobby (the 30's into the early 50's) Hi-Rail tinplate layouts composed of Lionel, Flyer or Marx toy trains, but modified and used by adults, were common and more or less accepted by MR and RMC readers, about the mid 50's they were bannished from the pages of these magazines and no longer regarded as part of the adult side of the hobby. Justification for this split was detailed in editorials appearing in the magazines at the time.
The situation today is, at least to some degree a bit different. While classic Lionel and Flyer trains still are made, certain high-end O-gauge scale models are designed to run on three rail Lionel track although they otherwise rival HO brass models...with prices to match. Nevertheless, three rail and Flyer hobbyists have not been included in any survey conducted by the scale model side of the hobby in at least five decades.
There seem to be various factions in the larger scales, some are a little more toy-like while others are some amazingly detailed scale models. I think of the work Cliff Grandt did in O scale and I'm still astonished.
One scale not mentioned so far is TT (1:120). I've often wondered why it hasn't developed a larger following. It is easy to scale .1" = 1 foot (simle math). It's a little larger than N and yet it fits into smaller spaces than HO. In many ways it seems just right.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
shayfan84325One scale not mentioned so far is TT (1:120). I've often wondered why it hasn't developed a larger following.
The comments about N-scale rapidly growing. The other part is that it is also rapidly shrinking. I was one of the big early supporters of it. About 1983 I started hitting the scales limitations and although I tried to maintain multiple layouts for a while I finally gave up and razed the N-scale about four years ago. Because of that my last few hundred purchases have been HO. I have only purchased 1 N-scale loco in the past decade and that was a gift (Athearn 4-6-6-4 w/sound) for my father.
pastorbob SpaceMouse CNJ, Why would O gauge be considered a different hobby. Certainly there are O gauge railroads with the same level of detail as HO if not more. And the modelers can operate their trains just as HO operators do. I'm curious. While I hate to presume for CNJ, O gauge Scale and Lionel O are two different animals. I dabbled early in O but saw early on I would probably never have the space to build what I wanted and the offerings for O scale were limited. I do have one O scale steam loco that I kept, and which graces a shelf in the train room, far away from wandering hands. Bob
Bob,
I very respectfully disagree, there are 3 Rail locomotives (and cars) available that rival HO Brass for detail, and even surpass some O-SCALE in detail. Yes 3 rail has an extra rail, larger than scale couplers (Standard HO Kadees are also guilty of this as well BTW) and larger flanges(Rivarossi, sound familiar?). A High-Rail layout can be built with the same quality and detail, that any other scale can be built to, it is more a matter of the hobbiest's skills, and time and effort put into, NOT a matter of scale, or how many rails the track has. But to flippantly dismiss O-Gauge as all being the same toy train quality, would be the equivalent of someone assuming that all HO are the same quality as Tyco's Silver Streak and Chattanooga Choo Choo. The Elitest and divisive attitudes of many modelers does the Hobby as a whole a major disservice.
They are NOT your Grandpa's Lionels any more.
Starting my Nephews out RIGHT, and Right Away. O-Gauge was the Best choice for these guys, HO would not have been a good idea, but the two Nephews in the Top pic spend HOURS each day with their Father "Playing Trains" and are totally and completely hooked on the Hobby.
Always promoting the Hobby,
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
There are of course HO and N guage "models" at the same sort of detail/toy level...
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
There actually seem to be three classifications for O scale models. Scale 2 rail, high rail (those super detailed pieces that run on 3 rail track), and tinplate, traditional Lionel. Of course there are other subcategories and so forth if you want to be exact, but those three cover most of the model railroad activities in O scale.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Be it 2 Rail O, High-Rail or Tinplate, they are all model railroading. That being said, HO Brass, O Brass, N, S, TT , Z or Gauge #1 are all TOYS also, regardless of Scale, Gauge or cost, they are toys, They are not tools, they provide no service, and the only things that they produce are SMILES, and Frustration, the percentage of which is always changing.
My feelings about the whole shebang precisely, Doug.
-Crandell
challenger3980 Be it 2 Rail O, High-Rail or Tinplate, they are all model railroading. That being said, HO Brass, O Brass, N, S, TT , Z or Gauge #1 are all TOYS also, regardless of Scale, Gauge or cost, they are toys, They are not tools, they provide no service, and the only things that they produce are SMILES, and Frustration, the percentage of which is always changing. Doug
Doug:
Amen to that.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I suspect N Scale could be has high as 30% from my observations and trackside chats...I also believe HO has lost ground over the past few years because of On30 and G scale.
Of course those that are privy to the facts and figures ain't tellin'..
So,the best we can do is speculate.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
CNJ831 Essentially two-thirds of all model railroaders (which does not include Lionel, Flyer, Marx, et al. hobbyists as that is a separate hobby in itself) are in HO standard gauge (the vast majority), with a very small number in HO narrow gauge. N comprises around 25%-30% of the hobby and the rest total somewhat less than ten percent. If you doubt these figures, just look up the numbers reported by MR over the years. The percentages really haven't changed significantly in some years. CNJ831
CNJ831,
I would be curious as to HOW MR came up with these numbers. If it was a poll of their readers, it would not be a very scientifically accurate source. But I would imagine that those numbers would be pretty accurate for MR's readers. MR caters mainly to HO and N scales, which I don't doubt are the largest percentage of the Hobby. But to say that all the others comprise less than 10%, I would like to see a more unbiased source supporting that number.
If I were to poll Classic Toy Trains(CTT) readers on what scales they model, I would guess the numbers would be approximately 70% either O-Gauge or O-Scale, 15% S, 5-8% Standard Gauge and all the rest the remaining small amount. Would that be any more accurate of a poll?
With any poll, you have to ask, WHO conducted it, WHAT was their purpose for conducting it, and WHO did they poll?
Figures can Lie, and Liars can Figure. Statistics can be made to say almost anything a particular person wants them to say.
challenger3980 With any poll, you have to ask, WHO conducted it, WHAT was their purpose for conducting it, and WHO did they poll?
In any poll--especially those that are targeting a specific group of people there is always the question of who paid for it, who conducted it and their purpose. First of all, let us assume Kalmbach hired someone to do this survey, the purpose of which might have been to find out how the market was split between the various groups of modellers and how that might effect their marketing ploy, and, of course, they had to ask the subscribers---and a lot of them may (or not) have replied.
The problem here now is that we've become much more skeptical that, in a way, one is forced into asking---well then --WHO do you think should conduct this type of survey?
A detached observor from Mars perhaps?
I do think the answer though does tend to play around the 60-70% bracket for HO and roughly 25% for N with the rest barking at various levels. And, yes, the only real source for this information is/are MRR publishers both past and present. I have yet to see anything in Dissertation Abstracts that seems to indicate an academic study fell on our laps.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
The NMRA comes to mind as an unbiased source, have they ever done any studies on the break down of what scales people model in?
I was not suggesting that Kalmbach would mis-represent the results in any way, just that if it was a poll conducted through MR magazine, the results would be different than those, that would have come from a poll in CTT, another Kalmbach publication. While MR has a generic sounding name, it does cater much more towards HO, and N scale, with the others pretty much a neglected after thought. I would not be the first to suggest Kalmbach change the name from MR to HO&N Monthly.
Something else to consider when figuring percentages of modelers in particular scales, how do you count the Multi-scalers like myself? Do you have totals that exceed 100%? I personally have Model railroad equipment in Large Scale (Commonly, and incorrectly all collectively refered to as "G" Scale) O-Gauge, HO and N scale, though I am much more active in the O-Gauge than the other 3 combined. Multi-scalers are probably more common than many realize.
challenger3980 The NMRA comes to mind as an unbiased source, have they ever done any studies on the break down of what scales people model in? Doug
Doug, the unfortunate situation with these novice forums is that whenever any survey facts or statistics are present, if they don't agree with some poster's personal opinion of the situation, then they are branded as inaccurate, not representative, bias, or just plain wrong. These forums are the only place I've even encountered where published facts and figures are considered to be trumped by baseless personal opinion every time. Draw your own conclusions from that.
And, yes, the NMRA has conducted similar hobbyist surveys over the years and their percentages essentially echo what MR has found. However, I'm sure you'll quickly see a post following this one saying that the NMRA is an HO organization, so their figures are totally bias as well!
The real point to consider is that MR conducted surveys of its readership over a span of more than five decades. Throughout that time they were the premier (sometimes, except for RMC, the only) model railroading magazine and, since most modeling is not scale specific, there is no reason to believe that their readership was/is not representative of a general cross section of hobbyists. The niche magazines catering to specific scales, which have arisen in recent years have very small circulations, suggesting they've probably had little impact on MR's readership numbers. Thus, MR should have been and still be a good barometer of who is doing what regarding scale.
Incidentally, HO became the dominant scale all the way back in 1942 and has maintained a consistant 65%+/- segment of the hobby ever since the early 1950's.
I don't know whether or not this helps at all in the argument over percentages of scales, but here in Northern California, there are two large, very well-stocked hobby shops devoted solely to trains in the Sacramento/Roseville area, and visiting each of them can give you a good idea of how popularity among scales breaks down, at least in this portion of the state (which contains a great many model railroaders, BTW).
For instance, Bruce's Trains here in Sacramento carries G, O, HO, N and Z trains and accessories. The first thing you're met with when you walk into the store is a rather generous selection of O Hi-Rail equipment from mfgrs. such as Lionel and Williams (and a neat operating layout opposite the checkout counter), then as you go down the main aisle, a large selection of HO. Along one wall is their G-guage selection (again, pretty generous), and toward the back, their N and Z (not as much, but pretty nice). Spend some time in the store and you see that about 50% of the store is devoted to HO--locos, rolling stock, accessories, but enough of the other scales (or gauges) is there to satisfy just about any railroad hobbyist.
When I visit Bruce's, I usually stay there quite a while, either shopping or shooting the bull with the employees (they're a great bunch, BTW), and it's interesting to see some of the purchases come through the counter--a large variance in scales, and not only just HO and N.
Railroad Hobbies in Roseville is much like Bruce's. Possibly not quite as big, but well stocked in all guages--maybe a little more 'concentrated' in their inventory, but again, the variance in guages represented is extremely complete--again, about 50% HO, but enough of other gauges to attract a lot of Northern California customers who model other scales. And again, observing the buying habits of customers lets me know that "If you stock it, they will come." I use both shops a lot. I'm in HO, but if I were in another scale, such as N or Z or even the various G-scales, I wouldn't be shopping in either store in vain.
And if I were into O Hi-Rail, between the two stores, I'd be in Hog Heaven.
So, I guess the point of all of this is that if you have a well-stocked MR shop in your area, we can all be happy campers. We're lucky here, in this particular area of California, we've got two, within about 10 miles of each other, and they attract people in this hobby all the way from the Oregon border to the Coast. There's a lot of us out here in Northern California, and we've all got our favorite gauge and scale.
Hi Tom,
Have you been to the Western Depot? I believe that is in your neck of the woods. I have bought quite a bit from them out of their ads, flyers and ebay auctions. They seem to be a Great bunch there too, I have BS'ed quite awhile a time or two on the phone ordering from them.
Here in Portland, Whistle Stop near me is a Trains only shop, the usual selection in HO, plus an extensive selection in O-Gauge as well, the areas "Go To Place" for O. Tammies Hobbies in Beaverton is a full line Hobby shop, with plenty of HO, and is THE PLACE around here for Large Scale, with a very impressive selection.
Unfortunately Mainline trains in Forest Grove, where I will be moving to next month, after I get Married, is almost completely HO, plus some N, and less than 2 miles from where we will be living. I doubt that I will be able to create enough O demand on my own to make much of a difference.
O-Gauge does seem to be a bit more prevalent back east than it is here out West also. Charley, the owner of Whistle Stop has said though that O is growing in Popularity, and sales. At least they wont be too far out of the way, on my way home from work.
I didn't consider this an "Arguement" over scales, rather a discussion and I hope others see it the same way. But I don't consider MR to be much of a Multi scale mag, MRN(Model Railroad News) would be a much better example of a multi-scale magazine, but their circulation is much smaller, and there are probably many who have never heard of, or read MRN, especially the further East you go. They are Published not too far away from Kadee, here in Oregon, so Hopefully some day they will be as well known as Kadee is.
My observation based on trains shows and hobby shops is that HO is most popular.
Next are O (in all it's forms) and N. I think they are about even, but O might have a slight edge.
Next is G in all it's scales.
Last are S (in all it's forms) and Z. I think S is more popular, and has more stuff available, but both are a small segment of the hobby.
All of these scales are well supported in that you can get track, turnouts, diesel and steam locomotives, rolling stock, structures, etc for any of them.
TT is possible, but supplies are very sketchy. At the moment I think you can get everything mentioned above, but most of it is small basement operations or European.
OO is popular in Britain, but American OO (which uses the correct track gauge) seems to have no commercial support unless you use On3 which has eactly the same gauge of .750".
I also think that scales other than HO are gaining in relative popularity. So while HO numbers may not be declining, I think the percentage is.
I don't think it matters much to argue about Scale vs Toy in O and S. Most of the products in S are offered in both Scale and HiRail. Many in O are also offered in both - a trend that seems to be increasing.
Enjoy
Paul
I have a question about O scale/O gauge. If I were to say operate a small O layout in a 15 x 15 room, should I stay with the third rail stuff, or should I try O scale 2 rail, is the third rail simply for complex layouts in a small area, or are there other disadvantages to going to 2 rail?
I don't know if my question makes any sense but basically I am wondering which is better for the purpose of a simple circle with 0-72 curves, should I just go 2 rail due to the lack of a need for reversal loops? Btw, Doug, I sent you a response to your pm a few weeks ago, I am not sure if you got it though.
Hi again Jake,
The disadvatages of O-Scale compared to O-Gauge are Scale typically requires curves about twice as wide for similar equipment, a smaller selection of equipment, and it tends to be more expensive. There are plenty of expensive locomotives in 3 Rail as well though, believe me, I know, I like them too much.
If You want to include reverse loops, or wyes in your track plans or have train activated accessories such as track signals or crossing gates/signals then 3 rail makes life and wiring much easier, to borrow a phrase from twhite, it makes it "easier by a factor of ridiculous"
I didn't get your message, I had sent you an email through the forum, but was unsure whether you got it or not, it didn't show in my sent list, and I was unable to find any record of it in my forum profile, where I can review PM's, so I didn't know if you got it or not.
Doug.
Hi Jake,
I pulled a bit of a brain fart, there and missed the circle bit. For a simple circle of 072 curves, or 36 inch radius, in scale terms, your main advantage ikn 3 rail would be detection fortrack and/or crossing signals. Track, locomotives and rolling stock would be more available in 3 rail. 3 rail cars and locomotives detailed to the same level as 2 rail are available, but likely wouldn't be tremendously less expensive than 2 rail versions.
Thanks Doug, I will definately buy some 3 rail stuff then. Still saving up for my prr S1, can't wait to get those new weaver fleet of modernsim cars to go with it.
CNJ831 while the latter have long been regarded as simply children's toys.
while the latter have long been regarded as simply children's toys.
Check the prices on those "childrens toys" lately??