Victorian Era

[fwright]

The Roundhouse line - both pre- and post-Athearn takeover - has convinced many that the 1880s were a time of 36ft boxcars and reefers with truss rod underframes, Overton passenger cars, and that the Roundhouse Old Timer locomotives are accurate representatives of that era as well.  You could do your Victorian era layout with Roundhouse equipment, and 9 out of 10 visitors would say the layout was right on.  Most folks - including most model railroaders - have no idea of the differences in railroad equipment that occured between 1875 and 1905.

But because I wasn't alive in 1900, I've had to do research and reading to find out what railroads and life was really like back then.  Reading White's book on freight cars is a real eye opener.  You discover that prototype cars typical of the Roundhouse models didn't come into being until around 1905 to 1910.  Car lengths were generally around 24-26 ft during the Civil War period, and gradually grew to 36ft nearly 40 years later.  After that, steel underframes took over, and car length and height and capacity grew again.

Similarly, the Old Timer locomotives have a rather large boiler (all share the same boiler) compared to any prototypes before 1890.  And the boiler is mounted higher than on most prototypes.  And that doesn't deal with the issues of headlight types, generators, air compressors, and driver counter weights.  The Model Power 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 (made by Frateschi and still available under the Frateschi name) are much more accurate models of 1880s Baldwins - almost dead ringers for Colorado Midland Baldwins (except for the tender).  But these use a rather poor all-tender drive, and the engine chassis, side rods, etc., are plastic.

Fred W

....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....

[IVRW]

I model the same period in HO scale. I have come up with the same dilemma, but the era is doable. There is no need to worry about lack of kits, because all you need in that is a wood [not wood wood, but i.e. a plastic kit that looks like wood.] kit. I agree with you that there is not much rolling stock available, but after browsing a hobby shop, I found an Athern owned co. called RoundHouse. They make 4-4-0s, 2-6-0s, and 2-8-0s, as well as a whole slew of freight cars. However, you cannot order any of that online, it all has to be done via hobby shop, though I would highly recommend RoundHouse.

[rrinker]

 Well you CAN, you just have to ALSO modify the frame and boiler to get it to look plausible.

                                  --Randy

[SpaceMouse]

markpierce

SpaceMouse

What I've found by modeling the 1800's is you have to be a tad flexible as far as accuracy goes. The best models of locos available right now are the MDC 4-4-0's, 2-6-0's and 2-8-0's. You could convert those to 0-4-0's and 0-6-0's by removing the front trucks.

Can't make an 0-4-0 from a 4-4-0 by just removing the lead truck.  The locomotive's center of gravity will be all wrong.

Mark

My bad. I've gone the other way and added trucks but not removed them. I AssUMe'd you could go the other way. Sorry.

[dehusman]

Except for Roundhouse, the major model manufacturers think railroads were invented sometime between 1930 and 1945.  They have completely ignored the first 75 years of railroading.

If you go to the specialty companies (BTS, Alkem, Labelle, Art Griffin Decals, etc) you can find several early era models.

The Early Rail Yahoo group is very, very active with many excellent modelers and lots of information.

[Voyager]

As others have noted,  you cannot model Victorian railroads by buying every thing ready-made.  The few big import companies that dominate the ready-to-run market cater mainly to 1950s“transition era” and later. The easiest route  to period modeling is to focus on narrow gauge, because there is a wealth of kits and ready-to-run models, including engines, for HO, O, and even
S narrow gauge.  Bachmann’s rather extensive line of 19^th century locos and cars for On30, in fact,  is an exception to the rule that early railroading doesn’t catch the interest of the big ready-to-run importers. And  look at what Paul Scoles has achieved in Sn3, technically a very minority gauge,  with his turn of the century layout  (http://members.westnet.com.au/mjbd/html/paul_scoles.html) using kit built locos.  

Unfortunately, the situation is less promising for standard HO gauge, where there is a dearth of good, early locomotives.  Even that can be overcome, if you track down  older brass engines like the PFM Reno 4-4-0 Baldwins and re-motor them—or  kit bash AHM, Roundhouse, and other ready-made models. For inspiration,  visit the Pacific Coast Airline site’s 1905 page  (http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/) and associated links. Even a big home Victorian layout is manageable if you enlist the help of friends in building it.  See Craig Bisgeier’s  1890’s Housatonic site (http://www.housatonicrr.com/), which probably best matches your interests in terms of time, for a great example . And if modeling  that era seems daunting  look at what Thom Radice (http://web.me.com/cello55/Thoms_W&A_RR/W%26A_RR.html) and Bernard Kempinski  (http://usmrr.blogspot.com/) have achieved modeling the Civil War era. As to available kits, check the Files section of the Early Rail site mentioned in another post for lists of these.

Keep in mind, however, that the  work involved in making much of your own equipment means it’s best to think in terms of small but intensely worked  layouts. European modelers, who lack North American basements (and are far more eclectic in their period interests) have shown the way—though  Art Fahie’s Wharf Street ( http://www.barmillsmodels.com/wharf_street_.html ) rivals the best of theirs.   But for capturing a “Victorian” mood and a distinctive landscape,  it’s hard to beat layouts like David Passinham’s Maeport East (http://www.gwr.org.uk/layoutsmaeport1.html) or Frits Osterhun’s  Cochemer Bahn (http://www.osterthun.com/Gallery/Layout/A1.htm)  I hope someday you succeed as well in capturing the look and mood of an 1890s Missouri River town!

Best of luck,

Voyager

[richg1998]

 Bitter Creek is going to release upgraded rolling stock The used to be produced by Bob Cook of BC Models. The BC Models stuff was somewhat crude but Jeff is upgrading everything. Here is a link to the BC Models catalog to show you "possible" models to be produced.

http://www.hoseeker.net/misccatalogs.html

I am presently building a 36' sixteen wheel Wabash flat car (circa 1900) with crank shaft load and Jeff has told me he will be releasing a version of this flat car. Jeff sells the crank shaft load now.

He sells 1870 to 1900 HO and Hon3 rolling stock.

Rich

[rrinker]

 Friend of mine is doign it in N scale, but moving up about 20 years, to about 1910. All his locomotives he had to at the minimum heavily modify a stock model, more often than not he's actually scratchbuildign them (who makes camelbacks in N scale?). Definitely not the sort of thing for a beginner.

 What's interesting is that when you look in the 50's issues of MR, contemporary modeling wasn;t all that popular (I guess everyone around still had recent memories of steam locomotives, and the modern diesels were just too 'yuck'). It seems the most popular era back then was the turn of the 20th century. Now we have a strong contingent of 50's era modelers (either childhood for many, or just prior), but also a lot of people modelling the contemporary scene - have to admit, being able to walk out to the nearest grade crossing to get ideas is pretty appealing.

                                      --Randy

 

[fwright]

19th Century modeling has several strikes against it that have not been already mentioned:

• Locomotive mechanisms and prices:  Locomotives then were much smaller than they were in the 20th Century.  In the small scales, making a decent mechanism is that much more difficult than fitting one into a 4-8-4.  Compounding the good mechanism in a small space issue is the fact that model railroaders like to pay based on the number of driving wheels.  A good 4-4-0 drive is at least as expensive to design and produce as that 4-8-4 drive.  The superstructure of the larger model would cost at most 2% additional.  Yet, the equivalent quality 4-8-4 can command a price $100 greater than the 4-4-0.  So many of the 19th Century models end up being train set quality to keep the price less than their bigger brethren.
• Locomotive mechanisms II:  In N scale and even HO, a scale size boiler often won't have room to fit a reasonably-priced motor and gear reduction to get the speed down where it should be.  Except in the industrial East on the major lines, 19th Century track did not support sustained operations above 45-50 MPH, even if the locomotives could.  In much of the West, train speeds around 25-30 MPH were much more common.  Which makes the gearing issue that much tougher, since smaller motors tend to run at higher RPMs.
• Locomotive mechanisms III:  The small locomotives of the 19th Century make it difficult to add extra weight for traction.  Fitting decent size flywheels often just can't happen.  Wheels usable for electrical contact are at a premium, as well.  These issues make running 19th Century prototypes over the old style Atlas insulated plastic frogs, or typical dirty track less than a joy.  Which made model railroaders even more reluctant to buy them.
• Scaling of locomotives:  In the past, liberties have been taken with scale to enable cheaper motors to fit.  This detracts from the attraction of modeling the era.  A person who chooses an era of which he has no personal experience gets some joy out of researching the past - or he wouldn't choose such an era.  When you do some research and realize how inaccurate the past offerings are, it's discouraging.
• Scaling of locomotives II:  Because of the inherent difficulties in making good models of 19th Century locomotives, moving to a larger scale is not such a bad idea.  Because 19th Centruy prototypes are so much smaller than modern railroading, a larger scale model of 19th Century will fit in almost the same space as the smaller scale models of modern railroads.  Most HO 19th Century equipment will operate on 15" radius curves - about the same as modern prototype N.  O scale 19th Century will often work fine on 30" or 36" radius curves - not that much more than modern prototype HO.

 Bottom line for locomotives:  Good running, accurate models are a challenge, and usually won't be cheap.  SMR has produced some beautiful 19th Century models in O, but the prices are considerably higher than most mrs are used to paying.  The picture is slowly improving in HO; in addition to Roundhouse, the Spectrum 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 can be back-dated to 1890 or so.  There were also quite a few brass models of 19th Century prototypes produced in HO.  I don't know much about N beyond the Atlas, Athearn (Roundhouse), and Bachmann models.  The Atlas and Athearn models reportedly ran fairly well.

For rolling stock, there is quite a bit being produced in HO.  These are mostly wood or resin kits, and are seldom advertised in Model Railroader.  Scratchbuilding freight cars is really quite easy - practically all prototypes had very similar underframes.  In HO, there have been various lines of passenger cars available.  Labelle (kits only) and Roundhouse (Overland series) are the most common currently in production.  But Model Power, Bachmann, Mantua/Tyco, IHC/AHM, and others have all offered 19th Century freight and passenger cars at one time or another.  Much of this older production have relatively crude detailing, but they are easily improved.

To me the biggest challenge is finding a wide variety of figures, horses, and wagons to fit the era.  There are a few models of each in HO, but nothing like the variety that would be seen in real life.

Final comment, handlaid track will do a much better job of modeling 19th Century track than any commercial product.  Tie plates are not needed or wanted - just 4 spikes per tie where they can be seen.  Stub turnouts are perfectly acceptable, and are as easy to make as points. Some ties can be hand-hewn.  Ballast normally peaked in the center of the track, and fell off as the tie ends were approached.  Dirt ballast was not unknown.

Modeling the 19th Century demands a little more modeling than just visiting your LHS.  But it's quite rewarding to bring to life scenes from the past - and in a lot less space.

Fred W

...modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....

[CNJ831]

To expand further in regard to Mark's comment, simply removing the pilot wheels of a locomotive does not automatically convert it to a prototypically accurate "coupled" engine. While some older 2-6-0's  and 2-8-0's were indeed downgraded to switcher service or other uses through such wheel removal, they were by no means representative of as-built road locomotives of that wheel arrangement, as is apparent if one examines photos of such period locomotives. Stripping the pilot truck from a 4-4-0 to make an 0-4-0 would, as Mark indicates, be a totally unrealistic move.

And to answer the OP's original question, the latter half of the 19th century is and always has been, the least popular era to model among hobbyists. The Civil War period is the singular exception. The 20th century's "transition era" became the most popular of all eras to model by the middle 1950's and has remained so ever since.

CNJ831

[markpierce]

SpaceMouse

What I've found by modeling the 1800's is you have to be a tad flexible as far as accuracy goes. The best models of locos available right now are the MDC 4-4-0's, 2-6-0's and 2-8-0's. You could convert those to 0-4-0's and 0-6-0's by removing the front trucks.

Can't make an 0-4-0 from a 4-4-0 by just removing the lead truck.  The locomotive's center of gravity will be all wrong.

Mark

[SpaceMouse]

What I've found by modeling the 1800's is you have to be a tad flexible as far as accuracy goes. The best models of locos available right now are the MDC 4-4-0's, 2-6-0's and 2-8-0's. You could convert those to 0-4-0's and 0-6-0's by removing the front trucks.

As for rolling stock your best bet is again MDC. You can pick up the old time kits fairly reasonably on eBay or at train shows, but with every passing month they are getting harder to find.

Figures are available from Bachman, Gandt line and Rustic Rails. You can also find some stuff on eBay and train shows from time to time.

AS for structures, your best bet is the Campbell and Muir kits. Other stuff can be found on eBay, mostly built, that are coming from old collections. They can be restored pretty easily with paint.

Mostly for structures you scratch-build. The good news is that most of the structures are simple therefor easy to make.  

[wjstix]

Grandt Line makes unpainted metal Victorian figures in O scale.

 

http://www.grandtline.com/miniatures/quarter_inch_figures_list.htm

 

[G Paine]

 

Also, search the forum for posts by "Spacemouse"; he has done quite a bit of modeling in the 1880s timeframe in a far west theme. He has a lot of pictures of his work.

[HarryHotspur]

 I wish I could find a good source for O scale Victorian Era figures. Prieser has a few, but not many.

[wjstix]

Another source would be MDC/Roundhouse trains, which you probably remember from the 1980's. They are now earned by Athearn, and generally only make ready-to-run products rather than kits.

http://www.roundhousetrains.com/

The most popular eras now in model railroading would be the transition era of the 1950's and the more recent years, maybe 1985-today I'd guess.

The problem with 19th c. modelling is it's kind of a vicious circle. Many people don't want to model that period because the equipment, structures etc. that fit that era are either not available or only available as wood craftsman's kits (when many people now only do plastic kits or buy RTR stuff). Since so many people won't model that period because so little is available, manufacturers don't see a demand to build more kits and RTR products for that period.

Kind of the reverse of whatYogi Berra said about a restaurant in his old neighborhood in St. Louis: "Nobody goes there anymore because it's too crowded".  

 

[Eric L.]

Hello:

I'm also recently new to this forum and have already found the following:

Yahoo forums - Early_Rail:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EarlyRail/

Yahoo forums - ER_Kits:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ER_Kits/

Also, check out the following:

http://www.btsrr.com/

http://www.geocities.com/bkempins/ASMMain/Main.html

http://www.labellemodels.com/

I model HO and am zeroing in on Civil War thru WWI so I hope the above is of some help.  I also eagerly look forward to the input of others!

 

Eric.

[lukash]

First off, I'm new to the forum, so "hello." 

I've been out of model railroading since the late '80s but plan to finally build my "dream" layout now that I'm moving into a home that will accommodate it.  I’d like to build the Burlington & Missouri Railroad’s Plattsmouth, Nebraska yards/shops circa 1890, as presented in an issue of the Burlington Bulletin published in the mid-‘80s.  The middle and focal point of the layout will be the yard/shops and the Plattsmouth bridge over the Missouri River.  Trains will cross the bridge and disappear behind a bluff where the will circle back and return to the yard.  I may also have another line which does the same thing, but in the opposite direction.  One going to Des Moines and the other going to Havelock, I guess.

I’m a fan of N scale but I don’t think I’ll be able to find the locomotives or cars I need to accurately model the Plattsmouth shop/yards.  I’ve obtained a locomotive roster of equipment built at Plattsmouth and it consists of 0-4-0s, 0-6-0s, and 4-4-0s.  I’ve looked at HO scale and although I can find many 4-4-0s which could work, there isn’t a lot of rolling stock for this era.  Same thing with O.

So, my question is this: is Victorian Era railroading not popular and therefore lacking a diverse product range, or am I not looking for applicable products in the right places?  I’ve tried many online sellers, but just can’t find what I’m looking for.  Is there a specialist I should know about?

Any thoughts/help would be appreciated.

Thanks.