Victorian Era

[DonRicardo]

Try the model ship building sites. They have minature figures that should fit HO , off scale a little but not noticeable in HO scale. There are manufacturers who make card stock building kits, great for kit bashing and inexpensive, check out for instance, www.ScaleModelPlans.com, there are several companies that provide such kits.

Some poptular n scale models, rtr, were sold by Bachman, I think, "The General" I think it was Bachman, not sure.

[hardcoalcase]

lukash

   I’ve looked at HO scale and although I can find many 4-4-0s which could work, there isn’t a lot of rolling stock for this era.  Same thing with O.  

I model the early 1900's so my freight car roster has a lot of MDC-Roundhouse 36' box cars, reefers and stock cars, plus center-beam tank cars. 

The "older cars" in the roster include 33' and 28' box cars, flats, gons, tank cars (tanks-on-flats and vats-on-flats) that have been been made by several companies including AHM, Bachmann, Mantua, and Mehano (the tooling seems to get passed around alot).  These cars generally need the wheels and/or trucks and couplers to be replaced.   

At train shows, the Roundhouse cars typically sell for about $5, and the "older cars" for still less than that... one of the "perks" of modeling the earlier time periods. 

Jim

 

 

 

 

[Overmod]

This is an excellent example of an appropriately-revived necro thread.

[Frits Osterthun]

Thanks Voyager. Seeing the puicture you hyoperlinked... that'sone gfrom tje 1990's. Please check out the great renovaytion of the Cochemr Bahn since 2018. More 'Victorian'style can now be found on the layout.

http://osterthun.com/50.Journal/Weinberg/20220105Q.jpg

 

 

[CNJ831]

wjstix

I suspect re how many people were modelling the 1950's in the 1950's, you'd find it kind of a "chicken and egg" issue. If you asked modellers why they modelled the steam era, they might say because there weren't a lot of 'modern' diesels available, so they buy steam. If you ask the manufacturers why they don't make more diesels, they'd probably say because steam engines are what everyone is buying.

Read the story of Cowen's reluctant introduction of the Lionel F-3, which turned out to be a run away success with Lionel's customers and you'll better understand the situation with HO manufacturers in the early 1950's.

As to 4 and 6 coupled steam engines, as Dave has already indicated, as-built examples were very common and purpose-specific on lines serving most highly populated areas. They were not created simply out of older road engines less their lead trucks. Pick up just about any photo intensive late 19th century history of railroad motive power and you'll find this immediately apparent.

CNJ831

[Autobus Prime]

Folks:

John Nehrich has made an interesting point about the Victorian era.  As far as the physical plant goes, steam era modelers, however late, *are* largely modeling the Victorian era...I would extend this to say that even the most modern railroads are often a skeletal remnant of that era with a few modern appurtenances grafted on.  That's when a great deal of US railroads were built, and many standards were set. 

If you build a model railroad to 1893's state of the art, you could run Hudsons on it, and neither would look out of place.  Relatively few elements of the railroad proper would be strikingly odd...maybe some obsolete signals or details. Most would just look familiar and railroady

Add a few structures and you could run Geeps on it.  Tear down some of it and paint the rest some ugly pastel green, and you've got the 1970s.  Tear down even more structures and run stack trains for the modern era. This gets into more of an exaggeration as we progress along these lines, but the fact remains that the 1890s were not as long ago, railroad-wise, as we might think.

I'm reading an excellent book right now, Berg's Buildings and Structures of American Railroads, published in 1892, as I look for my next structure-building project, and it's amazing...the majority of the structures described and pictured in there could find use on any steam-era model railroad.  I heartily recommend this book to anyone...you can find it for free on Google Books.

[dehusman]

wjstix

I wonder how common 0-6-0 and 0-8-0 engines would have been c.1885?? It seems to me that railroads just used older engines for switching then. I remember seeing pics of Great Northen using an 2-8-0 with the pilot axle removed as a switcher c. 1900 in one of my old GN books. My impression has been that railroads generally didn't buy engines specifically designed as switchers in any great numbers until around 1900 or so...and when they did, it was the 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 type, with 0-8-0s coming along around say 1910-15??

0-4-0 and 0-6-0 switchers were very common in the late 1800's (although the only ones I've seen, other than camelbacks, are brass).  On my prototype, in 1885 9 of 29 engines were switchers (seven 0-4-0 and two 0-6-0).  None of the other engines were listed as switchers (12 4-4-0, 6 4-6-0 and 2 2-8-0).  After 1900, the 0-4-0's were gradually retired and replaced by 0-6-0's. 0-8-0's were used sort as "roadswitchers".  Some of the switchers in service by 1900 were bought in the 1860's and 1870's.

Another thing you have to take into account its the nature of the railroad.  I model the eastern seaboard.  Lots of concentrated, heavy industy, established urban areas and yard trackage, short runs.  On the other hand the GN with more rural areas, lower density of industry and longer runs, it might be more practical to use a more multi-purpose engine.  Just as some places a 1950's RR would use an SW1200 but other places a GP7 might switch.  Same decision process.

[wjstix]

blownout cylinder

CNJ831

However...folks wishing to seriously (i.e. accurately) model this time period are pretty much expected to be accomplished scatchbuilders, kitbashers and craftsmen, as good operating equipment for this era is not available right out of the box. 

 

And how does one become accomplished? By practicing that thing called scratchbuilding---

Although harder to find than they once were, you can still find steam engine kits from Mantua, Bowser and MDC around. Learning how to put the parts together would give you an insight into how down the road you could do a kitbash or even a scratchbuilt engine. I know taking apart a couple of old Mantua RTR engines to add a can motor, add some details, adding a new tender etc. and decorating the resulting engine gave me a lot of valuable experience.

[blownout cylinder]

CNJ831

However...folks wishing to seriously (i.e. accurately) model this time period are pretty much expected to be accomplished scatchbuilders, kitbashers and craftsmen, as good operating equipment for this era is not available right out of the box. 

 

And how does one become accomplished? By practicing that thing called scratchbuilding---

It is related to the ever popular question of teenagers the world over when it comes to getting their first job. How does one become an 'X' when one does not have the experience? By starting someplace--maybe not related but it gets you in the ground floor. Scratchbuilding then has something of a ground floor called small buildings et cetera--. I'm starting to scratch together, even if the dang thing becomes a mere static display, a 2-6-0. I found I have accumulated enough brass pieces, frames, wheelsets, motors and such that I could conceivably toss something that looks like it may work---that we'll see

[wjstix]

I suspect re how many people were modelling the 1950's in the 1950's, you'd find it kind of a "chicken and egg" issue. If you asked modellers why they modelled the steam era, they might say because there weren't a lot of 'modern' diesels available, so they buy steam. If you ask the manufacturers why they don't make more diesels, they'd probably say because steam engines are what everyone is buying.

I wonder how common 0-6-0 and 0-8-0 engines would have been c.1885?? It seems to me that railroads just used older engines for switching then. I remember seeing pics of Great Northen using an 2-8-0 with the pilot axle removed as a switcher c. 1900 in one of my old GN books. My impression has been that railroads generally didn't buy engines specifically designed as switchers in any great numbers until around 1900 or so...and when they did, it was the 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 type, with 0-8-0s coming along around say 1910-15??

[CNJ831]

blownout cylinder

CNJ831

While true, such 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 models will not be representative, even as stand-ins, for most as-built 6 and 8 coupled locomotives of the late 19th century.

One question--since it wouldn't even qualify as a stand in, then what, pray tell, can a person do if there are really no small steam of that era to be had?  Would one be able to, theoretically at least, scratchbuild one that would fit the as-built state?

Well...the OP cited that he was interested in vintage locos with an 0-4-0, 0-6-0 and 4-4-0 wheel arrangements. While there are some reasonably suitable 4-4-0's around today, the same can not be said for either of the first two, except for maybe the little ex-Mantua camelbacks. A lot depends on just what RR you model as to what might or might not work.  

During the 50's and 60's there were a number of small, vintage, steamers available that have long since vanished from the scene. Mantua's Eight-Ball Mogul, if re-worked and detailed, is a reasonable stand-in for a period 0-6-0 when the lead truck is removed, plus being remotored and additional pickups added, as would be perhaps half a dozen other small, better detailed, brass imports of obviously higher quality from the same period. I've always been particularly fond of the little 2-6-2T "convertible" loco (the owner can vary the wheel arrangement various ways) offered by Gem, LMB, et al. during 60's. Subsequently LMB alone offered it with footboards, instead of spoked pilots, making it more suitable for use as a small switcher. Further, LMB also brought in a somewhat larger "suburban" commuter, or Forney-type, engine from the late 19th century. Such locos as these can be found from time to time on eBay for a not unreasonable price. Plenty of appropriate period rolling stock is available in the form of old craftsman kits as well.

However...folks wishing to seriously (i.e. accurately) model this time period are pretty much expected to be accomplished scatchbuilders, kitbashers and craftsmen, as good operating equipment for this era is not available right out of the box. 

CNJ831  

[blownout cylinder]

CNJ831

While true, such 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 models will not be representative, even as stand-ins, for most as-built 6 and 8 coupled locomotives of the late 19th century.

 

One question--since it wouldn't even qualify as a stand in, then what, pray tell, can a person do if there are really no small steam of that era to be had?  Would one be able to, theoretically at least, scratchbuild one that would fit the as-built state?

[CNJ831]

dehusman

SpaceMouse

My bad. I've gone the other way and added trucks but not removed them. I AssUMe'd you could go the other way. Sorry

 

You can go from a 2-6-0 or 2-8-0 (or 2-8-8-0) to switcher by removing the pilot truck, real railroads did it all the time.

But the 4 wheel pilot trucks carried too much weight.

While true, such 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 models will not be representative, even as stand-ins, for most as-built 6 and 8 coupled locomotives of the late 19th century.

CNJ831

[CNJ831]

wjstix

BTW In the fifties very few people modelled the fifties, the most common era was the 1920's-30's. Even when I started in HO in 1971 most modellers were all-steam. In the thirties when model railroading really got going, a lot of those early hobbyists were old enough to remember the 1890-1900 era and so 'turn of the century' models were common. Of course back then it was more about building  models and seeing if you could get them to run well, layouts were generally built by clubs and were usually fairly generic as to time and location.

 

Well, not exactly, Stix. Your statement doesn't take into account what locomotive models were to be had at the time. What you see in way of hobbyist's choice of eras during the 1950's was more a reflection of what was available in the way of model kits than a matter of real hobbyists' preference. 

Up through the mid 1950's there was only a very limited selection of diesel locomotives available in HO. Most of the manufacturers were still concentrating on producing mainly 1920's-30's styled steam (although Mantua did have a small roster of vintage locomotives in addition to its regular line). Penn Line, John English, Bowser, Mantua and a few others were providing the majority of locomotives for the hobby and although many hobbyists modified them, they were still limited by what the kit loco orginally represented. It wasn't until around 1960 and later (Athearn's famous plastic F-7 didn't appear until 1956) that diesels were really well enough represented in diversity that hobbyists could truly model a representation of the "transition era" for many railroads.

Likewise, during the 1950's the average age of modelers was, unlike today, quite young (the average being just 31!), so most probably wished they could model contemporary railroading but there just wasn't the equipment available to allow this. You'll note that the pages of MR were filled with articles on creating your own modern diesels, so the interest in contemprary railroading must have been there. I will say that it was the older guys modeling in O-gauge, particularly the scratchbuilders therein, that were often modeling turn of the century prototypes right up through the 1950's, as Trackside Photos illustrates.

If you'll look up the MR surveys, I think you'll find that each time the question was posed, from say 1960 onward, as to which era was the most modeled, the answer ALWAYS came back the transition era 

CNJ831

 

[dehusman]

SpaceMouse

My bad. I've gone the other way and added trucks but not removed them. I AssUMe'd you could go the other way. Sorry

 

You can go from a 2-6-0 or 2-8-0 (or 2-8-8-0) to switcher by removing the pilot truck, real railroads did it all the time.

But the 4 wheel pilot trucks carried too much weight.

[Voyager]

The often made claim that there is little rolling stock available for 19^th Century modeling is only true with regard to ready-to-run equipment.  For those willing to build wooden or resin kits, there has never been a better time than the present to take up early railroad modeling.  Take a look at all that is listed on the Early Rail site’s freight car list:  http://www.earlyrail.org/freight-cars.html .  And here are two more manufacturers not even listed  there:

Bitter Creek (http://www.bittercreekmodels.com/CARKIT.html)

REM’s Railroad Models (http://www.remsmodels.com/HOKits.html)

True, much less is currently available when it comes to motive power.  But a lot of what has been produced in the past can be found used. For a list of what to look for check the ERLOCOLIST1.XLS file on the Early Rail file page at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EarlyRail/files/  .

 Voyager

 

[wjstix]

Another good source of information on that period is the Clover House dry transfer catalogue. It not only has diagrams of cars of that period, but notes the specific years the lettering would be seen.

www.cloverhouse.com

BTW In the fifties very few people modelled the fifties, the most common era was the 1920's-30's. Even when I started in HO in 1971 most modellers were all-steam. In the thirties when model railroading really got going, a lot of those early hobbyists were old enough to remember the 1890-1900 era and so 'turn of the century' models were common. Of course back then it was more about building  models and seeing if you could get them to run well, layouts were generally built by clubs and were usually fairly generic as to time and location.

In the UK the most common period has seemed to be the "Between the Wars" period of the twenties and thirties for a long time, though as here I'm sure younger people entering the hobby are more interested in more recent trains. Victorian era modellers are more common in Britain I think too...of course as OO modellers they have an advantage - their trains run on HO track but are about 12% bigger in linear scale. (4mm = 1 ft in OO vs 3.5mm = 1 ft in HO.)

Come to think of it, I believe we have a forum member who is modelling a US railroad in the Victorian era using OO trains....

Keep in mind if you go to say 1907 that cars and engines run a long time, you'd still be seeing cars and engines from the 1870's-80's running in 1907.

[R. T. POTEET]

 Glad to have you aboard the forum!

You have picked a very interesting location for your modeling--that Burlington bridge across the Mighty Mo at that location is indeed a magnificant structure. Unfortunately at the same time you have really picked a quandry-producer for your choice of eras.

In the era specified by your posting Burlington was using 4-4-0s, 2-6-0s, and 2-8-0s. I'm reasonably sure that almost any 4-4-0 on the market would be reasonably close to Burlington's specifications. I don't know who has Moguls (2-6-0) on the market but Burlington's of that era were using 64" drivers--according to Kalmbach's Guide to North American Steam Locomotives in 1900 Burlington's West Burlington shops built the premier Prairie-type (2-6-2) locomotive by extending the frame of one of those 64"-drivered Moguls to accomodate a two wheel trailing truck. Consolidation's (2-8-0) of that era were using 57" drivers and I suspect that any Consolidation you are going to find on the market nowadays is going to have 63 inches. Getting an acceptable steam locomotive may amount to a make-do situation.

Your big problem is going to be rolling stock; I will admit that as an N-Scaler I don't really pay an awful lot of attention to HO-Scale availability but I'm sure that I would probably have noticed any line which offered products from that era. When I got in the hobby in the early '60s there were more products available from that era; I don't recall having seen a feature in the hobby press dealing with 19th Century modeling in a long, long, long time.

Again, welcome, and the best of luck in your endeavors!

[richg1998]

 Here are comparison photos of the Spectrum 4-4-0 and Roundhouse 4-4-0.

The Roundhouse 4-4-0, 2-6-0, 2-8-0 all have identical boilers and tenders. Loco and tender light fixtures will vary.

The Roundhouse pulls a little more because of traction tires. The Roundhouse tenders pickup track power from all eight wheels, plus drivers.

The Spectrums pickup from drivers also but only four wheels on the tenders.

Rich

[IRONROOSTER]

richg1998

This site might have suitable engine crews. I by all mine through him

http://www.yardbirdtrains.com/YBSfigures.htm

Here is an example of a circa 1900 60 ton truss rod  flatcar with load I am building. Maybe half scratch built with Tichy details and Bitter Creek trucks. Long way to go to finish. It uses four arch bar trucks. A on line company will make it available as a kit this year.

You have to do a some research and buy suitable books. Some books can be found in libraries.

I found the photo of the car in White's, The American Freight Car. It is copyrighted so I cannot post the photo.

There is a nice Yahoo Early Rail group modeling the era but I hesitate to suggest Yahoo Groups anymore. Spammers and hackers have figured out the different Yahoo groups and I get a lot in my Yahoo email spam folder whenever I post a message there. I use a Linux operating system so no issues with possible viruses.

Rich

 

There's an article on building this car (or a similar one) with this load in MR's Easy-to-build Model Railroad Freight Cars book from 1971. It's a reprint from the June 1960 issue.

Enjoy

Paul

[richg1998]

This site might have suitable engine crews. I by all mine through him

http://www.yardbirdtrains.com/YBSfigures.htm

Here is an example of a circa 1900 60 ton truss rod  flatcar with load I am building. Maybe half scratch built with Tichy details and Bitter Creek trucks. Long way to go to finish. It uses four arch bar trucks. A on line company will make it available as a kit this year.

You have to do a some research and buy suitable books. Some books can be found in libraries.

I found the photo of the car in White's, The American Freight Car. It is copyrighted so I cannot post the photo.

There is a nice Yahoo Early Rail group modeling the era but I hesitate to suggest Yahoo Groups anymore. Spammers and hackers have figured out the different Yahoo groups and I get a lot in my Yahoo email spam folder whenever I post a message there. I use a Linux operating system so no issues with possible viruses.

Rich

[ChrisNH]

andrechapelon

You might want to check out Don Ball's site. He models 1895.

http://www.sandcrr.com/

And this one:

Craig Bisgeier's Housatonic site: http://www.housatonicrr.com/

Andre

 

I was going to suggest both of those! Great sites!

Chris

[toot toot]

fwright

The Roundhouse line - both pre- and post-Athearn takeover - has convinced many that the 1880s were a time of 36ft boxcars and reefers with truss rod underframes, Overton passenger cars, and that the Roundhouse Old Timer locomotives are accurate representatives of that era as well.  You could do your Victorian era layout with Roundhouse equipment, and 9 out of 10 visitors would say the layout was right on.  Most folks - including most model railroaders - have no idea of the differences in railroad equipment that occured between 1875 and 1905.

 

 

it started long before Roundhouse got into the act, back when (for example) Laconia made the Sierra coach and combine (prototype 1902) and called it "Old Time."  Don't forget Central Valley's Central Pacific California Fast Freight Line as a 36' car with air brakes and knuckle couplers.  Even Edwin P Alexander couldn't keep his eras straight, building a Grant 2-4-2 and lettering it US Military RR (prototype built 1870) and then putting it in his book on Civil War Railroads and Models

All that aside, the Victorian era has many advantages:  Shorter trains; smaller towns; small equipment looks ok on our tighter curves and pigmy sized; lots of scratchbuilding; great variety in fallen flags.  Disadvantages: lots of scratchbuilding;  scale rail yields poor electrical performance (scale rail would be code 40 and code 55);  not much in the way of locomotives or rolling stock prior to 1890;

 

I protolance model the 1890-1910 era. 

[andrechapelon]

You might want to check out Don Ball's site. He models 1895.

http://www.sandcrr.com/

And this one:

Craig Bisgeier's Housatonic site: http://www.housatonicrr.com/

Andre

[IRONROOSTER]

 Another alternative is to use Bachmann On30 rolling stock for S standard gauge.  They aren't exact but the baxcar is about 34' long, a little wide at 9'6", and about the height of a USRA boxcar - others are similar..  Replace the ladders and grab irons and modify the trucks and you're good to go.  At least one person is reported to have converted the Bachmann 2-6-0 to S standard gauge.

Enjoy

Paul

[DavidGSmith]

 An alterative is On30, the equipment goes on about the same radius track as HO. The main thing is that most rolling stock from the pre 1900s has truss rods and may or may not have air brakes. I modeled in HO pre 1900 for many years. I used Juneco kits (wood) for box cars, flats and gons. I beleive LaBelle still makes some equipment that is suitable. Most rolling stock has to be kits, some are craftsman, more difficult but look great. Check swap meets and shows for built up rolling stock. I usually found some at most shows.

Dave

[lukash]

Thanks everyone for your advice and guidance.  As stated in my first post, I was targeting the 1890's, but it appears I should shift my target to 1907 because more products for that era are available.  In 1907 the Missouri River flooded and wiped out the shops, turntables, and anything else that could be demolished including cars and engines to a lesser extent.

 I'll have to see what was going on around 1907, which isn't exactly the era I wanted to model, but it may have to do for now.  I could easily jump back 10 or perhaps 20 years by simply swapping out locomotives and cars because the structures didn't change much over that period.

 Thanks again everyone.

[wm3798]

 It is generally accepted that in the United States the Victorian period spanned from about 1870 to 1910, at least architecturally, although Queen Victoria reigned from 1837 to 1901.

In either case, that's a pretty broad target.  What years specifically were you looking at?

If you're considering the early 20th Century, the Model Power 4-4-0 is generally regarded as a good N scale locomotive, and it's based on a 1905 prototype.  They also offer a 2-6-0 Mogul.  Between these and the MDC Consolidation, you should be able to cobble together a reasonable turn of the century fleet.

There are also a variety of early 20th Century and late 19th Century cars available both RTR and in kit form.

Even the relatively cheesy Bachmann Old Timer cars can be tweaked and detailed to look and run better.  Their bobber caboose would be a staple for your conductors to properly punctuate their trains...

It would also be a lot of fun, I would think, to find unique cars and try some scratchbuilding.  You'd do well by visiting the B&O Railroad Museum in Baltimore, which has a considerable collection of equipment of this vintage.

Lee

[dehusman]

fwright

The Roundhouse line - both pre- and post-Athearn takeover - has convinced many that the 1880s were a time of 36ft boxcars and reefers with truss rod underframes, Overton passenger cars, and that the Roundhouse Old Timer locomotives are accurate representatives of that era as well. 

Most older cars would have either ladders/grab irons on the ends or sides, but not both.  The Original Roundhouse models had just grabirons on the sides.  They "upgraded" them to include grab iron on both the ends and the sides, effectively dating them after 1910.  During that "upgrade" they also added a brace across the door, more typical of the era around WW1.  Basically they changed them so they would more appropriate in a late 30's or early 1940's era layout, which is where modelers were drifting. 

The major model manufacturers haven't come out with a new pre-WW1 wood car in over 30 years (getting closer to 40 years). 

You could do your Victorian era layout with Roundhouse equipment, and 9 out of 10 visitors would say the layout was right on.  Most folks - including most model railroaders - have no idea of the differences in railroad equipment that occured between 1875 and 1905.

Add the model manufacturers to that group also.

But because I wasn't alive in 1900, I've had to do research and reading to find out what railroads and life was really like back then.  Reading White's book on freight cars is a real eye opener.  You discover that prototype cars typical of the Roundhouse models didn't come into being until around 1905 to 1910. 

 

36 ft cars were reasonably common  in 1900 and by 1905 the vast majority of the B&O's boxcar roster was 36 ft and a large part of the PRR was 36 ft also.  On the other hand, 36 ft cars were unusual enough that in the 1900 ORER there is a listing of all cars 36 ft or longer.

Car lengths were generally around 24-26 ft during the Civil War period, and gradually grew to 36ft nearly 40 years later.  After that, steel underframes took over, and car length and height and capacity grew again.

Many of the early steel underframe cars were 36 ft cars (the PRR XL and the related designs.)