And you thought you were ripped off...

[Anonymous]

I have no problem with a company looking to increase its profits. I'm sick & tired of people who think companies or this country owes them something. People need to adapt their skills and stop complaining.

[Anonymous]

Although I got all caught up in this topic because it really torks me when people seek to blame, especially blaming the wrong party (not nesessarily a political 'party'), you're absolutely correct. We did get a little far afield from model trains on one hand, but obviously it opened up a few wounds and may have caused a few more. Maybe we all understand each others point(s) of view a little better after this, maybe not. But it did get one thinking, didn't it. Got to go- Hannity is on the tube. . .Subterrainian homesick blues"

[Anonymous]

Bill Matthhewson is talking about there's kids on this post-look at me I'm 14 and started the whole thing! Probably what sparked me off is when I ordered 3 Intermountain boxcars because I thought they're products were made here and I knew their cars were good quality, then I found out Intermountain R-T-R was made in China! I couldn't believe it! It kinda made me mad, as you understand by now. I hate it when I buy something, thinking I was supporting my country, and it's imported.

[Anonymous]

bill matthewson, you made a very good point there... now it comes into my mind that the remote-control cars I used to have when I was 8 were $70-$100, made in China, and Shorted Out after a year of running- boy, that used to make me mad! Maybe it would help if we knew who was making our model trains- I'm sure there's some nice folks in the bunch. I suppose you're all right.. we still have it better than any other country here and our hobby although definetly not cheap- is still lest costly than other hobbies with fine quality equipment. There's still a lot of our models made in the USA too.. you just have to look around for them. PLEASE... IF YOU'RE GOING TO POST, DON'T INCLUDE ANY POLITICS OR ANY INDUSTRIES AND COMPANIES IN THEM- IT WILL JUST ALL GET US INTO AN ARGUEMENT! I WOULD HAVE LEARNED NOT TO DISCUSS POLITICS WITH OTHER MODEL RR'S OR ANYONE ELSE SOONER OR LATER ANYWAY.. MIGHT AS WELL LEARN IT HERE AND NOT IN PUBLIC![;)]

[Anonymous]

If the price of a model railroad item is the only concern for some, wait until its been on the shelf for a while and look for it at a discount on the internet or from a mail order house. ( Isn't that the same thing?) Just don't complain when your local friendly hobby shop closes its doors. Or, you can work out a deal, like I am with a local shop to order most all of my stuff from him if he'll be competive. Make it easy on the retailer -ask for a copy of his order form from his distributor or manufacturer and fill it out for him. You might be pleasantly surprised-it works with your more motivated hobby shops. **** Hay mainecentral229-who are you going to vote for? Excuse my sarcasim, but your understanding of what we've all been debating or venting about is a bit twisted. May I make two suggestions-stop watching CBS news-try FOX and get your facts straight , and the other is to please refrain from vulgar expletives, even if you have carefully inserted other characters-young kids are on this Forum and although I'm 58 and hardly a prude, there's another time and place for that; you obviously let the water - level drop below your crown sheet. Perhaps it's still too cold way up there in the Maine woods, or you've just attended a Kerry rally nearby. Sorry to be so harsh, but like this topic, you really got under my skin.. Now can we please go 'play with our trains' and suffer the ridicule for doing so from our wives or significant others? "It's time to call it a day. . ."

[Anonymous]

Slick Willy may have signed NAFTA, but Bush 41 put the whole deal together on his watch and basically pointed at the spot on the document for 'ol Slick to sign. NAFTA has nothing to do with China making model trains, dress shirts or power tools; its charter was/is to reduce trade barriers and tariff costs across borders with Mexico and Canada. The hope was for US manufacturers to 'farm out' a lot of the unskilled labor content especially to Mexice and to encourage increased importiation of USA made goods in return, with the hoped -for costs reduction making USA made goods more affordable (and more profitable for the maker). Maybe some of those really upset with this "model railroad stuff from China thing " should vent their anger on Athearn, Broadway, Life-Like, Bachmann, and even Walthers.. Just don't buy their products if it is so upsetting. Vote with your dollars. When I purchased my first Proto 2000 diesel quite a few years ago (Alco FA/FB in GE/Alco demo paint I didn't realize at first where it was made until I got beyond all the incredible attention to detail that was, at that time, more likely to be found on a Korean or Japanese brass unit costing several times more that still needed to be painted. My reaction is still clear as a bell today- I couldn't believe that the unfairly stereotyped Chinese workers could have done such incredible work, and how could Life-Like have priced it so low. I wondered how they could do all that fine error- free hand application of details, get the paint shades and markings so accurate and mass produce such a smooth running ,troublefree mechanism. It was obvious that they had sweated the details. It was even more amazing that it was a Life-Like product which previously ranked right in there about half way between Athearn and the very bottom of the chart. I promptly picked up three more A units and another B unit. When the next Proto 2000 release came out I bought two. And then I sold my AHM and IHC E units, all my Athearn 'blue box GP and F units and asking myself why couldn't Athearn do this-heck their GP7 still had a way too wide body shell to enclose their old-tech monster motor. I remember buying my first Athearn rubber band drive F unit in the fifties-its the same body shell still found in their blue box. I was dismayed at how we couldn't even make a similar high quality modeldiesel right in the LA area. When the Proto 2000 E units arrived I got rid of all my brass. Beautiful stuff but saw no reason to keep it except for bragging rights, which I could care less about. If you like brass great. Getting accurate models that look right ,run great at a fair price is most important to me. Am I angry at Life-Like ? Why should I be - their stuff is a bargain and their quality is superb. Would I rather buy American? You bet , but who's making it? Maybe if we considered that American companies are essentiallly subcontracting out the part of their manufacturing process that would be cost prohibitive to do in the USA, and I believe that is exactly what most of them are doing. The profits that enable them to continue to develop more quality products, are staying in this country. FYI - Big Blue (IBM) has been doing this for years and their stuff is still expensive!

[Anonymous]

I MEANT CHINA IN THE WTO (World Trade Org.) The NAFTA agreement didn't send jobs overseas, it sent them north and south of the border. Look how many tools and car parts are made in Mexico. Now, lets stop acting like we're all politicians on HARDBALL or JOE SCARBORUOGH and get back to the main point of this post. WE, as model railroaders, are gettin' ripped off by high prices and not much choice except for models made in China with a few exceptions. We're getting a little off topic here with Bill C. and NAFTA woes.

[Roadtrp]

cjm89

Please repeat after me...

NORTH AMERICAN FREE TRADE AGREEMENT. Last time I checked China was not in North America. NAFTA involved trade regulations between NORTH AMERICAN countries only.

Yes, Clinton did sign NAFTA, and I never disputed that. I disputed the assertion that NAFTA resulted in jobs going overseas, which is totally and completely false.

P.S. I could point out that it is in fact the Bush administration that has changed regulations making it much easier to trade with China, but I won't bother. Facts have never convinced a Republican of anything. [;)]

[BRAKIE]

I work Union..And I thank God for that..I would hate to try to live on minimum wage with todays prices-just ask the millions that do work for or just a little above minimum wage.I fully believe a worker should get a good days pay for a good days work-and not bee exploited by greedy corporations that makes millions of dollars off the workers sweat and pays their workers very little with no benefits.[8] But then I realized that is a old and out dated thought to todays Corporate America where greed and cut backs is the norm.
Now for you that believe Corporate America loves you ask the millions of white and blue color workers that are out of work due to cut backs..Yes,Coporate America loves you so much they are sending YOUR jobs over seas.Can you learn to say "Welcome to McDonald's.May I take your order?
Its not Wal-Mart,The Government ,but Corporate America's greed that is causing the down fall of America.
Every President has play a roll in what we see today..The current President has us in a war we can no longer hope to win but all to sadly body bags are being filled every day.He and congress has done nothing to help the economy,the lost of both white and blue collar jobs.

As far as the robber baron prices we are paying for our model trains we need to blame nobody but our selves.You see if we are not modelers enough to add the details we want on a locomotive and car then of course the model manufacturers will do that for us at a premium price..Some cry" I don't have time to do that or build a simple car kit."..Really? Spend less time watching TV.
Now what really gets my goat is when I see modelers cheering on the higher prices by saying the cost of manufacturing went up..Of course it did you ninny..Look at all of those added detail parts you could have easily added yourself.

[Anonymous]

Think happy thoughts"TRAINS" not politics Trains Oh but the voices! Trains I say[:D]

[Anonymous]

Tell me WHO signed in NAFTA and our membership with WTO then if it wasn't Bill Clinton. AND YOU THINK NAFTA WAS BENEFICIAL??!! You mean to tell me that laying thousands of American workers off (it turned into millions when China came in) IS BENEFICIAL TO OUR ECONOMY? Look at the layed off workers point of view, or live on a $400 unemployment check every month, and tell me it is beneficial to our economy. Who thought up of this abonimation called NAFTA? It was congress and the CLINTON ADMINISTRATION! Not to start a political fight here, if I wanted that I'd watch Hardball, but that is who signed us in to Both NAFTA and WTO.

[Roadtrp]

Matt,

Cool... griping is always good. I just hate to see old Slick Willy get unfairly picked on. But you certainly aren't the first person to mistakenly think that NAFTA is responsible for work going overseas. [:)]

[Anonymous]

Roadtrp, I'm having a bad day. needed to gripe even if I was inaccurate.

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by carpenter matt

Thank Little Billy Clinton for signing Nafta for all the overseas production and everyone leaving the US manufacturing world. And the enviro people for not drilling in the gulf for your Gas prices(@#$&^& Opec

NAFTA dealt with trade between the US and Mexico, and to a lesser extent Canada. (NORTH AMERICAN free trade agreement). It has absolutely nothing to do with jobs going overseas to China or India. Ol' Slick had his faults, but signing NAFTA was not one of them. By most accounts the United States has in fact benefited considerably from NAFTA.

As for gas prices, we drill plenty in the Gulf of Mexico. The "enviro people" have been trying to prevent drilling in the unspoiled and ecologically sensitive areas of Alaska. I'm not saying we should NEVER drill there, but I think it might be a better idea to get people out of their gas guzzling SUV's to start with.

[:)]

[Anonymous]

(mainecentral229: Don't blame it all on Bush, Bill Clinton ruined our country for several decades. I'm surprised he didn't try to sell the U.S. to Mexico or something. I would be against the Gulf War II also, but we captured Saddam, and I think as soon as we did that we should have pulled our troops out and let them morons at the U.N. handle it.)
To sum up what Bill Matthewson and others have said, the "hobby" part of our hobby is dying away. What's the average modeler going to do, custom paint and detail or buy a superdetailed model for $300 that's equipped with sound? How many of us scratchbuild structures or buy Walthers built-ups? (nothing against Walthers, they just make a lot of structures.) And now, who are we going to buy our models from, the Local Hobby Shop or Some big distributer like Trainworld or Model Expo who sell models at half price? In our country inflation has caused small companies to sell for more and large companies with the capital to do it, sell for less. I myself am partial to superdetailed models but if I ever would have enough extra money lying around, would I buy a brass model? No, I'd buy a plastic model with nice basic details and and superdetail it myself if I had the desire to. It like Terry Thomson wrote about in one issue of MR- start a progect now and then. Don't order that detailed to death Proto 2000 SD60M, buy an athearn Blue Box engine and detail it yourself if you have the skill to do so. I'm only 14 and so don't have a lot of extra money for trains, so I try to buy lower cost models when I can(if they're easy to detail or would look OK not detailed at all) And bigblow69, the one problem about "not buying products from China" now is that everything is made overseas. It would be OK if we could have a choice as to if we wanted to buy imported or domestic models, but that will never happen either. Maybe I shouldn't have focused on problem railroads have and focus on the problems MODEL RAILROADERS have.

[Anonymous]

If you don't like the economy, you can all thank Congress, Unions, And Bush! Unions have been making sure that it's members are overpaid for almost a century(don't forget to pay your dues!). Congress has been getting pay raises at an alarming rate, don't forget that they gave TAX BREAKS to the RICH[:(!](so the poor and middle class people can foot the bill for everyone). And then there is Bush[:o)], Who ignored al qaida terrorist warnings( which cost millions in cleanup for 9-11),attacked Iraq(who didn't have nukes!!!)[:(!] and sent millions of $ in supplies to REBUILD Iraq, on top of buying 30 million gallons of diesel fuel DAILY [:(!] to keep our troops and equipment over there. Not to mention that he gave up on trying to find Bin Laden(who appears to be the ring leader) to go after Hussien, who's capture essentially meant NOTHING. The U.S.A. is NOT here to play babysitter to the world. Let the world wipe it's own ***!! Worry about the problems we have at HOME!!!!!!!!!
Hey Bush, Let's spend our tax $$$ at home , you F%#*ing MORON!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Thank Little Billy Clinton for signing Nafta for all the overseas production and everyone leaving the US manufacturing world. And the enviro people for not drilling in the gulf for your Gas prices(@#$&^& Opec

[brothaslide]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

Bill

You really hit the nail on the head. Your absolutely right.

I couldn't agree more.

Remember when the Athearn Blue Box was just fine but now we need the highly detailed Genesis Loco with the operating ditch lights, DCC, Sound, etc., etc., etc.

Sean

[the-big-blow]

Bill

You really hit the nail on the head. Your absolutely right.

[Anonymous]

Or fondle the merchandise, pick your brain, special order a $2.99 item, and buy all the rest of their stuff mail-order or on eBay. Don't envy you, and to think I almost opened a hobby shop in Raleigh, NC 10 years ago. Every hobby shop in the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill metro area selling trains,. incl 'HobbyTown' , have failed and closed their doors except an RC store and an overpriced model/craft store in the mall with little train inventory and minimum wage help w/out any interest or knowledge about what their 'selling'. Why did that happen? Lack of market ?(approx 1 million live in metro shopping area), lack of interest ?(possibly-college basketball and golf rein supreme, although there are approx 3 model railroad clubs in area), Lack of RR prototype?(don't think so (Amtrak,CSX and NS all serve area now; Southern, Seaboard, N&W branch, orig. NS, Durham & Southern, and other shortlines used to operate in the area.) Bad management /poor customer support and service /lack of required business skills responsible? (My vote says Yup). Lack of disposable income? ( (Another , but qualified Yup-this was a dot.com town to a significant degree, houses shot up in price but not value, you know the scenario- and the money seemed to dry up-people make choices and model railroads were apparently not on their top ten list-at least buying from a local hobby shop, even on their credit cards . "You load sixteen tons and what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt. St. Peter don't you call me, 'cause I can't go. I owe my soul to the company store"

[the-big-blow]

The only way to fight China is not to buy products made there. Its that simple. My problem is not with the people working in the factories, they are just exploited, as it seems we are all becoming.(How many credit card offers try to woo you in) The issue is that with the evisceration of good paying jobs in this country no one is going to be able to afford trains much longer or the hobby that I have loved all these years. I work in a hobby store and I've seen what people do to buy the products, put it on credit cards!

[Anonymous]

They just filed for abandonment - better hurry! Guess you'll only need a one way ticket. Heard they're replacing it w/ 'Greyhound' (and I don't men a 4-6-6-4)!

[Anonymous]

That tears it!!! I`m taking the next train outta town!!!

[Anonymous]

Contrary to some popularly held opinion, doomsday is not upon us. If you are a 'baby boomer', think about how your parents lived, what stuff they had, and what was really important to them. Remember your childhood home. Did your Mom work or stay home with the kids at least until they started school? Did your Dad work 6 days a week and travel all the time, or was he usually home for dinner with the family at a resonable time? Did your family have but one or two modest cars, or a fleet of SUVs, Bimmers, and minivans? Did you have a TV, was it a color set , or did you have one for every other room in the house? Bet your Mom or sisters didn't get elective cosmetic surgery either, at least not 'back then'! How many snowmobiles, motorcycles, ATVs, riding mowers or gardeners did they have? Did they eat out all the time, or did your Mom clip grocery coupons? Did you, your siblings or parents fuss over having to have designer -label clothes with French sounding brands (made in China) or did you shop at Penneys or Sears for most things? Your Mom ever cut your hair or did you go to a hair stylist? Did you have a set of weight or a personal trainer? How many cruises did they take or did you go on family picnics to the lake? The point should be obvious-we have to have more and more, bigger and bigger, faster and faster 'stuff'. We are slaves to Madison Ave. Sad thing is that for many, this 'stuff' wears out , is no longer fashionable, or is technically obsolete long before it's paid for. This incredible consumer consumption has helped fuel the onslaught of imported products, for every manufacturer wants a piece of the action-in our wallet-and the insane competitive pressure on costs & profits has driven most consumer goods manufacturing offshore seeking low non-Union labor costs, less gov't regulations, etc. We have no one else to blame, but ourselves, for the "rat-race" we're part of. . . No one made us do it. It's a changing world, so we need to re-assess what we really need, where we've been and what are we going to do to effectively function to the best of our abilities in this 'brave new world'. Don't expect 'Big Brother' to make it right, for 'his' allegiance is to 'Big Business'. If you don't already, start resenting handouts to lazy people, guarantees to indifferent workers, subsidies to obsolete and dysfunctional industry, and irrational financial support to special interest groups and unappreciative third -world nations. . Determine how you will participate in the greater scheme of things, i.e. the global economy. Get involved . Get mad as hell. Be an informed voter Be the best you can be! "The times, they are a changin. . ."

[Anonymous]

Your Good Old Days are gone !
I'm not referring to the historical times of colonization and theft of third world resources.

I'm referring to the post WWII times of economic domination of the world.
Those were the days of tightly controlled importations of goods and services.

Those were the days when all of the "First World" nations called the shots....when the USA, Britain, Western Europe, and to a smaller extent, Canada and Australia...were the only commercial-industrial powers on earth, and had economically colonized the rest of the world for any resources they did not have, or did not have enough of...whether that happened to be oil, coffee, or cheap labor.
We gleefully bought all the good, cheap stuff we could get, especially as the quality of that cheap stuff kept getting better and better.
Duties ? Tarrifs ? So what....it's still a good deal !

I have never been a Marxist, never even been a "left-winger", but WHY are we surprised that the rest of the world was not willing to be perpetual "have-nots"?
What we find now, is that jobs we never thought would go away are leaving in droves, and it is because of us...not our politicians, not the workers in foreign lands...it is ourselves.

--As shareholders, we demand ever-increasing corporate profits.
--As employers, we demand government intervention and protection, from what we created ourselves.
--As employees, we demand ever-increasing wages and benefits, and more paid time off, and improved health and safety legislation.
--As consumers, we demand quality products at the lowest possible prices, and will not pay the price that domestically produced products have to sell for !
--As taxpayers, we demand better services for our own communities, cities, states, provinces, for LESS taxes than we pay now.

I am wearing a new denim shirt today...the old one was worn out...I am as guilty as anyone, and as a retiree on a rather limited income, I needed a shirt that I could afford. So it's "Penman's" made in China, bought at Wal-Mart, $15 Canadian + tax.
I had to get it at a Wal-Mart ,18 miles away because all the small retailers in my town have been put out of business by Wal-Mart, and even though I shopped locally before I retired, it didn't matter.
Enough people flocked to Wal-Mart when it first came to our area 10 years ago, that our main street began its' slow death right away.
If I had to buy a "domestic" denim shirt, I have no idea where I could even get one, let alone come up with $100+ to buy it.....I could've bought a "Levi" shirt, but it was $28 ,and was also made overseas.

A previous post states that there will "always" be jobs in industries like food service, but we need a higher minimum wage for them. Well, fine, but how many of us are going to be willing to buy a Big Mac for three or four times what it costs now ?

A majority of us seem to be blissfully unaware that the rest of the world has been seeking a higher standard of living for decades now.....and since the world as a whole neither needs, nor can it generate, a larger Gross Product base than can be consumed...it means our standard of living HAS to come down as the others go up.

Our granchildren are ALREADY cleaning the toilets and changing the sheets, for minimum wage, in Vail and Whistler hotels, for rich tourists from the countries that used to be the "Third World"....and there's nothing that would have averted that.

Your Good Old Days are gone !
Welcome to "the Global Economy".

Mike

[lupo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by memsd

...Well at least I know my Harley was made here...

(no offense intended to anyone)

but check-out some parts that are used on it . . . . . . . . .

[Anonymous]

Forgot that Porsche made tanks for the "Third Reich" -- thanks for pointing that out Jetrock: don't particularly like them anyway. . (Do you know the differance between a Porsche and a porcupine? hint: answer is not particularly politically correct-) FYI- I have absolutely no ugly feelings towards any brand or individual I was referring to in my earlier posts-except Lee Iacocca, the Disney Corporation, Wal-Mart et al, and that guy form Mass.-what's his name. Remember -"It's a lot easier to ride the horse in the direction it's going. . ." Now let's go 'play' with our Chinese, Italian, German, Austrian, Korean, Japanese, British, and even our Made in the USA trains.

[memsd]

...Well at least I know my Harley was made here...

(no offense intended to anyone)

[Anonymous]

It 's kind of enlightening that all of us are fired up about this topic. We probably will not alter the rudder of our government but sharing frustrations, perceptions, and different points of view are important for every single American. My Dad used to say to me that "nothing is so bad, but talking makes it so". That may have been acceptable back when most people blindly waved the Stars and Stripes regardless of what was going on. In today's world-in our global economy-it is not just the governments that are necessarily to blame, for it's rapidly becoming the multi-national big (huge) businesses that ultimately dictate policy to politicians thru campaign contributions, both openly, and 'soft' influence funds. Every politician has 'after the election payback obligations' that sway their positions on both small and critically important issues; and they may often not be in the best interests of those who elected them. As I said in an earlier post, this is not a recent development; its just that now with instant and in-depth investigative reporting we are now seemingly better 'informed'. Even the media (as yet another component of big business) realizes that sensationalism and vindictive, politically-biased broadcasting increases their audience and sells advertising. Do you think that organized labor endorsing a candidate and "promising" the rank and file' s votes to a particular politician is really much different than being obligated to soft money interests? Has labor-the individual guy or gal on the line, or driving a truck- really benefitted in recent history from such practices? Those same politicians are also beholding to the lure of 'soft money'. It's just an old, and not particularly correct (anymore) widely -held opinion that one party is soft on business while the other caters to labor. Like my Dad's advice to me, it's not relevant in the 21st century. What are the real definitions of liberal 'vs conservative, as they apply today? The lines are blurred! What is critical is that every American who is able to vote first look at the facts, and not the frantic rhetoric and distortions, before they vote. Has the 'wantabe' kept his promises during their political career? Or have they flip-flopped all over the map? And in our everyday pursuits we should strive for excellance at whatever we do to support our families. Americans can be very complacent and even lazy. They expect government to not only protect them in war and peace, to provide an infrastructure within which to live, offer unlimited opportunities,freedoms and liberties, assurances of free trade and unrestricted access to goods and services, and many want wage, benefits, and job retention guarantees while others are looking for a free ride that the rest of us are expected to pay for. . .Yet we have been the strongest, wealthiest , and most productive nation in history. Our system works, but it is up to each individual to continue to take advantage of the unparalled opportunities and freedoms we are so fortunate to have. An earlier post mentioned retraining for a new skill or profession, and that our government has the responsibility, not to save jobs, but to develop new jobs. . .Government can offer incentives for R&D, assist with educational grants, support institutions of higher learning, and offer tax relief for all of these. And they do just that, although some regions of the USA offer more than others to both industry and the individual. It's just more politics, and more about money. . . But government does not create new jobs, nor can it save them, unless artificial measures are taken like FDR's WPA during the Depression. Ultimately taxpayers are going to foot the bill. Industry creates new jobs-they identify a potential market, and if they have the funds and the talent, they sieze the moment and exploit it to its max, including out-sourcing or going offshore to save labor costs. This ain't gonna change. We need to change our thinking and maximize our abilities to participate in this unkind global economy. (I've had to do just that-I quit my day job after embarking on an extensine and intensive learning process to develop and refine my wood working skills and moved a considerable distance to a locale that not only appears more condusive to pursue my new endeavor, but one that offers greater opportunities for my wife who, several years ago, got retrained into a new, better paying and more satisfying career. And we moved to a state (GA) that offers tremendous pluses for my son educationally through their unique technical training grant program. Or we could have stayed where we were and bitched , complained, and moaned forever.)