Hi!
I must be missing something here........ Why not just use a length of 1x2 or 1x3 or something similar. Seems that would be easier to fasten to the benchwork, fully support the track, and provide a better attaching point for scenery, etc. What am I overlooking here????
Thanks,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
mobilman44 wrote:Hi!I must be missing something here........ Why not just use a length of 1x2 or 1x3 or something similar. Seems that would be easier to fasten to the benchwork, fully support the track, and provide a better attaching point for scenery, etc. What am I overlooking here????Thanks,Mobilman44
Electro,
Those are dimensional sizes of wood in English: 1" x 2" and 1" x 3". Actually, those dimensions are nominal because they are what the wood would be before being kiln dried. In reality, a 1 x 2 and a 1 x 3 would be 3/4" x 1-1/2" and 3/4" x 2-1/2", respectively, after being dried. A 2 x 4 - still a staple in the housing industry for framing here in the US - would actually be 1-1/2" x 3-1/2".
I hope that makes sense...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Electro: I got the pipe but it is probably a bit of overkill as it can handle 100 PSI and 180 degree temps. It's a super-flex composite 1/2" water pipe that comes in 20' lengths and it bends very nicely so 30" curves will not be a problem. I might have the 1st super cooled Super elevated curves on the forum! Who knows I migh be able to test out the "Big Bang" theory.
Fergie
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=5959
If one could roll back the hands of time... They would be waiting for the next train into the future. A. H. Francey 1921-2007
Is it possible to fill the pipes with cement before forming? Just a thought.
Also, how about using the larger sizes to build benchwork.
tstage wrote:Electro, Those are dimensional sizes of wood in English: 1" x 2" and 1" x 3". Actually, those dimensions are nominal because they are what the wood would be before being kiln dried. In reality, a 1 x 2 and a 1 x 3 would be 3/4" x 1-1/2" and 3/4" x 2-1/2", respectively, after being dried. A 2 x 4 - still a staple in the housing industry for framing here in the US - would actually be 1-1/2" x 3-1/2".I hope that makes sense...Tom
DingySP wrote:Is it possible to fill the pipes with cement before forming? Just a thought.Also, how about using the larger sizes to build benchwork.
Fergmiester wrote:Electro: I got the pipe but it is probably a bit of overkill as it can handle 100 PSI and 180 degree temps. It's a super-flex composite 1/2" water pipe that comes in 20' lengths and it bends very nicely so 30" curves will not be a problem. I might have the 1st super cooled Super elevated curves on the forum! Who knows I migh be able to test out the "Big Bang" theory.Fergie
I know this thread is old, so I was wondering if there has been any long term updates on this sub-roadbed method?
Jim at BSME Electro, I know this thread is old, so I was wondering if there has been any long term updates on this sub-roadbed method?
While "outside the box" thinking may yield good results, I don't see this as being one that did.To me, the material seems flimsy, and the attachment methods flimsier. While most of my layout is well within reach, when I need to stretch over the layout to reach something, I know that I can support myself by placing my free hand on the track (on 3/4" subroadbed) or on the scenic landforms (patching plaster on wire screen, attached to the roadbed and/or its own risers).
Superelevation is a snap with track on cookie-cutter 3/4" plywood, with no need for shims or complicated mathematical formulae, and the vertical easements form themselves.
Either Electrolove has achieved fame and fortune with his idea and is too busy enjoying the high life, or, more likely, I think, has found that there were less adantages or more unforeseen problems, and has gone back to the drawing board.
tstageThose are dimensional sizes of wood in English: 1" x 2" and 1" x 3". Actually, those dimensions are nominal because they are what the wood would be before being kiln dried. In reality, a 1 x 2 and a 1 x 3 would be 3/4" x 1-1/2" and 3/4" x 2-1/2", respectively, after being dried. A 2 x 4 - still a staple in the housing industry for framing here in the US - would actually be 1-1/2" x 3-1/2".
Actually, Tom, lumber sizes such as 1"x2", 2"x4", etc. are nominal sizes describing the dimensions of the wood after it's been sawn. Most wood is then run through a planer which smooths all four sides by removing some material, resulting in, respectively, ¾"x1½" and 1½"x3½".Some, but not all lumber is kiln dried, to varying degrees, depending on the wood type and grade, and its intended end-use. That process has little effect on the dimensions.Wayne
RobertSchuknecht Electrolove hasn't posted here since October 2010. My guess is you won't get a response from him.
Electrolove hasn't posted here since October 2010. My guess is you won't get a response from him.
I wonder if anyone else has experimented with this sub-roadbed, as the article Electrolove based his experiments on was published in Model Railroader, May 1988, page 88. The Author's name is M. J. Randall.
I guess doctorwayne is right if this out of the box idea became sucessful we would read about it more. Of course this was put forth as an alternative spline roadbed, and I dont know how many modelers actually use spline roadbed. So out of box thinking for a small segment of the hobby might not get alot of attention.
I experimented with PVC water pipe about 5 years ago. I wanted to make a reversing loop and the pipe seemed perfect. It does make nice smooth curves but can be a pain to hold it in a curved shape. I used screws and glue to hold the pipes together after they were curved. The lenghs of pipe were connected to gether with a half inch wood dowel, and screws.
The curved pipe on the garage floor where it was formed. The small brown object sitting on the pipe is an Athern F unit. There are 4 -10' long sections of half inch pipe.
One of the things I don't like is every thing has to glued. Hard to fix mistakes and make changes. I would like to cut a section to put a bridge in, but I am afraid the pipe might spring back.
Installed.
Never again.
SouthPennOne of the things I don't like is every thing has to glued. Hard to fix mistakes and make changes. I would like to cut a section to put a bridge in, but I am afraid the pipe might spring back.
This is the same reason I quit using splines. The pieces were giant springs held in place with glue. If I needed to add a turnout or bridge in a corve it seemed it would be a disaster. I had a lot done too. :(
Steve
ChoopsThe pieces were giant springs held in place with glue.
Why not use screws? I thought that splines were glued and screwed in place?
Small diameter pvc (and plastic pipe in general) sags between supports. And the amount of sag increases with time. That's why most commercial and industrial specifications require small diam plastic pipe to be continuosly supported. I think this pipe idea is a bad one.
doctorwayne tstage Those are dimensional sizes of wood in English: 1" x 2" and 1" x 3". Actually, those dimensions are nominal because they are what the wood would be before being kiln dried. In reality, a 1 x 2 and a 1 x 3 would be 3/4" x 1-1/2" and 3/4" x 2-1/2", respectively, after being dried. A 2 x 4 - still a staple in the housing industry for framing here in the US - would actually be 1-1/2" x 3-1/2". Actually, Tom, lumber sizes such as 1"x2", 2"x4", etc. are nominal sizes describing the dimensions of the wood after it's been sawn. Most wood is then run through a planer which smooths all four sides by removing some material, resulting in, respectively, ¾"x1½" and 1½"x3½". Some, but not all lumber is kiln dried, to varying degrees, depending on the wood type and grade, and its intended end-use. That process has little effect on the dimensions. Wayne
tstage Those are dimensional sizes of wood in English: 1" x 2" and 1" x 3". Actually, those dimensions are nominal because they are what the wood would be before being kiln dried. In reality, a 1 x 2 and a 1 x 3 would be 3/4" x 1-1/2" and 3/4" x 2-1/2", respectively, after being dried. A 2 x 4 - still a staple in the housing industry for framing here in the US - would actually be 1-1/2" x 3-1/2".
Actually, Tom, lumber sizes such as 1"x2", 2"x4", etc. are nominal sizes describing the dimensions of the wood after it's been sawn. Most wood is then run through a planer which smooths all four sides by removing some material, resulting in, respectively, ¾"x1½" and 1½"x3½". Some, but not all lumber is kiln dried, to varying degrees, depending on the wood type and grade, and its intended end-use. That process has little effect on the dimensions. Wayne
Actually you are both correct, lumber these days is rough cut to some dimension, and then either air dried (seasoned) or kiln dried and then planed smooth and edges rounded to the final dimension. I am confident that the rough cut dimension has changed over the years, yet we still call a wall stud a 2x4. The reason I say the rough cut dimensions have changed is because I have seen 2" x 4" studs, 1-5/8" x 3-5/8" studs, and 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" studs all of which were called 2x4. Now the old 2" x 4" studs were a) old, b) not planed, and c) sure look dired/seasoned. Modern studs being 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" makes it is hard to beleive that 1/2" of dimension is lost to drying and planing and at one time is was only 3/8" lost. This seems like a big waste of material when the lumber industry wants to get as many 2x4s out of a tree as possible so I suspect the rough cut dimension is smaller than 2 inches by 4 inches.
Checking on Electrolove, he hasn't posted since Oct 2010, so almost 7 years. It doesn't look likely that he is active in the forums with no posting history for that long so there may be no answer.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
karle Small diameter pvc (and plastic pipe in general) sags between supports. And the amount of sag increases with time. That's why most commercial and industrial specifications require small diam plastic pipe to be continuosly supported. I think this pipe idea is a bad one.
Correct. In some places my roadbed has sagged. It hasn't caused problems yet, but I'm going to have to address the problem soon.
At least it doesn't move around with humidity changes. But the sub-structure still does.
Putting the wires inside the pipe sounds like a good idea, but it's not very practical. I ran the wires in the more traditional manner of under the roadbed.
RobertSchuknecht Jim at BSME Electro, I know this thread is old, so I was wondering if there has been any long term updates on this sub-roadbed method? Electrolove hasn't posted here since October 2010. My guess is you won't get a response from him.
I have wondered what happened with electrolove. He had a tremendous enthusiasm for recreating the California Zephyr from Denver to Salt Lake City. He had even rented a building for his grand project.
SouthPenn karle Small diameter pvc (and plastic pipe in general) sags between supports. And the amount of sag increases with time. That's why most commercial and industrial specifications require small diam plastic pipe to be continuosly supported. I think this pipe idea is a bad one. Correct. In some places my roadbed has sagged. It hasn't caused problems yet, but I'm going to have to address the problem soon. At least it doesn't move around with humidity changes. But the sub-structure still does.
Am I correct that the spans you have ask the PVC pipe to assume are around 24" and above?
I'm looking into the possibilties of using this PVC pipe idea in the construction of a helix, If I divide a 60 inch dia helix circle into 8 segments, (an octagonal shape of vertical supports, the spans that the PVC pipe will have to make are on the order of 12 inches,....plenty close to not have sagging, in my opinion.
I'm seeking this new method out as I live in hot and humid FL, and my new layout will have the helix mounted external to the AC'd layout room. I have wanted to make use of 'plastics or metals' that are not affected greatly by humidity.
BTW, was that sch40 PVC pipe or just the thinner walled sprinkler system pipe?
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
SouthPenn I experimented with PVC water pipe about 5 years ago. I wanted to make a reversing loop and the pipe seemed perfect. It does make nice smooth curves but can be a pain to hold it in a curved shape. I used screws and glue to hold the pipes together after they were curved. The lenghs of pipe were connected to gether with a half inch wood dowel, and screws. The curved pipe on the garage floor where it was formed. The small brown object sitting on the pipe is an Athern F unit. There are 4 -10' long sections of half inch pipe. One of the things I don't like is every thing has to glued. Hard to fix mistakes and make changes. I would like to cut a section to put a bridge in, but I am afraid the pipe might spring back. Installed. Never again.
To clarify, did you screw and glue the 2 pipes together along their lengths? And what sort of glue did you utilze?
Did you ever try to apply any heat to the pipes once they were in their final form?,...to make them less prone to 'spring back' ?
railandsail SouthPenn I experimented with PVC water pipe about 5 years ago. I wanted to make a reversing loop and the pipe seemed perfect. It does make nice smooth curves but can be a pain to hold it in a curved shape. I used screws and glue to hold the pipes together after they were curved. The lenghs of pipe were connected to gether with a half inch wood dowel, and screws. The curved pipe on the garage floor where it was formed. The small brown object sitting on the pipe is an Athern F unit. There are 4 -10' long sections of half inch pipe. One of the things I don't like is every thing has to glued. Hard to fix mistakes and make changes. I would like to cut a section to put a bridge in, but I am afraid the pipe might spring back. Installed. Never again. To clarify, did you screw and glue the 2 pipes together along their lengths? And what sort of glue did you utilze? Did you ever try to apply any heat to the pipes once they were in their final form?,...to make them less prone to 'spring back' ?
I used screws and the glue that is used to connect the pipes together when I made the loop ( be sure to use the cleaner too ). I have not done any testing to see how well it is holding together. But it hasn't come apart any where. I also applied heat to the pipes after they were bent. But I don't think it did much. Not enough heat and lack of knowledge on my part.
Wire tyes are a big help holding every thing together while working on the loop.
I put the supports way too far apart.
I used 1/2", schedule 40 pipe used inside homes. I connected the pipes together with 1/2" wooden dowels and screws.
You can join the ends of the PVC pipes with PVC couplings. The masonite pieces need to be thick enough to extend above the wall thickness of the couplings. Running wiring inside the pipes is certainly a clean way, but makes it a nightmare if and when wiring needs to be modified. As for splitting the pipe down the center, that is not easy to do.You would need a table saw or band saw and it is hard to try and keep the cut even, as the pipe will tend to twist as you cut. Overall, I don't see any real advantage to using pipe over more traditional means. As someone else pointed out, sagging of long unsupported sections would be a problem. I don't see how you would support turnouts using pipe. It is a novel idea for sure and only after you try, will we know how successful and practical it is. Keep us informed on you progress.
Here are a few of my present ideas. Things are changing daily as I rethink this idea (thought about starting a new thread on this forum as we are now talking specifically helix rather than just cookie-cutter construction of track plan?)
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?40316-Building-a-Helix-with-PVC-Pipe&p=453437#post453437
[QUOTE=beiland] I walked into my local little metal scrap yard, and one of the first things that jumps out at me is they have some alum hand rails that have been scraped. These railings have lots of small box-sectioned 'tubes' that form the multiple uprights. And they appear to be plenty strong to become those up-right legs of the helix structure as mentioned above,....in the place of the 2' dia PVC tube, or the square-tubed PVC.They are getting ready to put all this scrap alum in a crushing machine,....no please. I grab a bunch of them as could also have other uses for some of them.I take a few more steps and I discover a big round circular hoop of alum. I suspect it was the outer ring of a glass table at one time. I measure it and its exactly 4 foot in diameter,..(hmm 24" radius). I had been planning on 5 foot dia helix, but perhaps this might do? Here is what I've collected at the moment. Lets see I need to find another one of these circular hoops of alum, or whatever,....or do I ??I decide to look up where i might find hoops of metal or whatever,...and I run into this greenhouse site. They bend many types to tubes to built their greenhouses.http://www.hoopbenders.net/home.html.....there is even a good video of a lady bending these metal tubeshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=D2GzR-IOvLwWOW, now I can built my own metal hoops at the 60" dia I wanted in the first place,...and fabricated from galvanized metal electrical conduit. One hoop for the top, one hoop for the bottom, with the 8 vertical legs attached between the two hoops.[/QUOTE]
These ideas seem to add quite a bit of roadbed depth, problematic for a helix because the grade becomes too steep pretty quickly. Some folks have used Micore (years ago) or Gatorboard (more recently) for roadbed. These materials should be less affected by humidity changes, especially if used with threaded rod as supports.
If you are only talking about the vertical supports and not the roadbed itself, threaded rod works well.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Nice looking Helix Cuyama.I actually have some all-thread rod that I had collected up, but I find it more difficult to employ it without a 'base structure' to set it on. I am also leery of gatorboard for the subroadbed.I'm imagining the donut shaped helix housed inside a short flat box like structure built of square tube aluminum tubes that can be bolted up to rear external face of my metal shed (to the studs of the shed), and with two 'legs' at its outer edges. I will be able to access the inner hollow of the helix from up underneath. Naturally the box structure that houses the helix will have metal sheeting covering it just like the shed itself. I have all of this alum metal already, and chose to utilize light weight alum rather than heavier and rot prone wood-frame construction. I am imagining that the lower entrance to the helix will be from a track that is already rising in grade from the blob/head portion of peninsula (in order to pass over other tracks at the root of the peninsula)....so one less level required of the helix itself. It will then rise up to the upper level and enter back into the layout room in a straight shot down the long edge of the shed/layout.