Building HO scale roadbed with PVC pipe (and cement)

[electrolove]

So what are the potential problems and time wasters? I have tried the method, I don't think anyone else have. I see no problems or time wasters.

You asked:

It doesn't appear to me to offer any SUBSTANTIAL improvements over any of the previous methods.  There are some ways where it is very simple and straightforward--that's the good part.  There also appear to be some potential problems or, at least, time-wasters.  SO, see first sentence.  If you are committed to this method, I think we would all like to hear how it works out as you solve some of the various problems either mentioned here or discovered later.

 

Definitely, thanks for sharing this new idea.

 

Ed 

[Renegade1c]

Ed,
 It must be a little more when you use cement between the pipes. But I used the same distance in this experiment. Maybe it's possible to join the pipes with smaller pipes instead of wood dowels. Then you can still use the pipes for track power. One cable in each pipe, no visible cables.

 The only problem that i see is if you have the wire inside the piping how do you add feeders to the track. you would have to put some sort of hole in your piping. Also Soldering your feeders would be a pain because you would only have the hole that you put in to work with to solder it to the main bus.

 

[Fergmiester]

Electrolove, I find this to be a very interesting concept. Its construction is much like spine roadbed but without the cutting and gluing of wood or masonite strips. The curves can be formed freehand instead of having to be figured out on paper and recreated in wood. Even easements, vertical or horizontal would be easy with the flexibility of PVC. Unlike wood or masonite, the PVC pipe is flexible in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

Thank You You have saved me a World of Grief as was wondering how I was going to replaced several sections of curved track that I had originally set on laminated spline. This looks like a suitable alternative.

Fergie

[BlueHillsCPR]

So what are the potential problems and time wasters? I have tried the method, I don't think anyone else have. I see no problems or time wasters.

It looks to me like it would beat the heck out of the cookie cutter method using plywood.  The spline method has always looked like a lot of fooling around to me.  I like the idea.  It looks like it would be very fast to lay subroadbed with this method.

I would be inclined to leave all wiring on the outside of the pipes but otherwise I don't see a lot of problems or time wasters...? 

What are you using for cement? Does it bond to the pipe or just fill the void between the masking tape and underside of the cork roadbed?

[jbinkley60]

 

How about adding a third piece of pipe underneath the two parallel pipes but instead of making it completely solid, cut it in 1 meter pieces and leave a gap between the 1 meter pieces of pipe ?  Then you can use the third pipe to pull wire, like a conduit, but also have easy access every meter (for feeders and such) and you can use the third pipe as a way to keep a consistent distance between the two pipes (since you would glue it to the other two in the middle.  You could always leave gaps at turnout machines and such too for easy wiring access. 

 

[electrolove]

Fergie,

If you ever try this for your curve, please post something about it with pictures and text. I would appreciate that a lot.

Electrolove, I find this to be a very interesting concept. Its construction is much like spine roadbed but without the cutting and gluing of wood or masonite strips. The curves can be formed freehand instead of having to be figured out on paper and recreated in wood. Even easements, vertical or horizontal would be easy with the flexibility of PVC. Unlike wood or masonite, the PVC pipe is flexible in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

Thank You You have saved me a World of Grief as was wondering how I was going to replaced several sections of curved track that I had originally set on laminated spline. This looks like a suitable alternative.

Fergie

[electrolove]

jbinkley60,

You gave me a idea. Maybe it's possible to use 3 pipes in parallel and no cement. Just trying to come up with new ways of doing this. I also wonder if you guys can tell me other materials then PVC pipe that can be used for spline roadbed.

 

How about adding a third piece of pipe underneath the two parallel pipes but instead of making it completely solid, cut it in 1 meter pieces and leave a gap between the 1 meter pieces of pipe ?  Then you can use the third pipe to pull wire, like a conduit, but also have easy access every meter (for feeders and such) and you can use the third pipe as a way to keep a consistent distance between the two pipes (since you would glue it to the other two in the middle.  You could always leave gaps at turnout machines and such too for easy wiring access. 

 

[electrolove]

I agree, I think it's best to leave the wiring outside the pipe.

I would like to see a bigger test with this method. A couple of curves and a grade. Maybe we have something new going on here that will revolutionize the way we are building roadbed.

Who wants to do it?

So what are the potential problems and time wasters? I have tried the method, I don't think anyone else have. I see no problems or time wasters.

It looks to me like it would beat the heck out of the cookie cutter method using plywood.  The spline method has always looked like a lot of fooling around to me.  I like the idea.  It looks like it would be very fast to lay subroadbed with this method.

I would be inclined to leave all wiring on the outside of the pipes but otherwise I don't see a lot of problems or time wasters...? 

What are you using for cement? Does it bond to the pipe or just fill the void between the masking tape and underside of the cork roadbed?

[tstage]

This is version 2 of the pipe roadbed method.

I used masking tape on the underside of the pipes. Then I added cement between the pipes!!! You don't need to cut all these masonite pieces anymore. Just glue cork roadbed on top of the cement. The cement will not move at all because the round shape of the pipes will no allow it. My cement was not fresh so I got lumps in it. I will try to even out the surface by adding a thin layer of spackle.

Electro,

Instead of cement between the PVC pipes, wouldn't it be easier to use latex caulk?  The caulk would be a better filler, easier to level and not be lumpy.  Once dry, the caulk would also help to reinforce and retain the shape of the curved pipe, as well as give you more compliant surface to use push pins in when laying cork and/or track.

Just a thought...

Tom

[Fergmiester]

Fergie,

If you ever try this for your curve, please post something about it with pictures and text. I would appreciate that a lot.

Electrolove, I find this to be a very interesting concept. Its construction is much like spine roadbed but without the cutting and gluing of wood or masonite strips. The curves can be formed freehand instead of having to be figured out on paper and recreated in wood. Even easements, vertical or horizontal would be easy with the flexibility of PVC. Unlike wood or masonite, the PVC pipe is flexible in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

Thank You You have saved me a World of Grief as was wondering how I was going to replaced several sections of curved track that I had originally set on laminated spline. This looks like a suitable alternative.

Fergie

I'm actually starting to work on the process in my mind and I'm also looking at the process of "superelevating" the curves. I really think is the answer to my prayers. As to when I will get to it will depend on the "Ta-Do" list and how much rain is in the forecast.

Rain=MR'ng

Fergie

[electrolove]

Fergie,

I learned a method to superelevate the track by Pelle Soeborg in his wonderful book Mountain to Desert. Glue small styrene pieces (around 6 by 6 mm) to the underside of your ties, 15 ties apart. Start with 0.25 mm, then 0,5, 0,75 and finally 1 mm for the rest of the curve. Then go down to zero again. I have tried it and that gives me a very nice superelevation.

Fergie,

If you ever try this for your curve, please post something about it with pictures and text. I would appreciate that a lot.

Electrolove, I find this to be a very interesting concept. Its construction is much like spine roadbed but without the cutting and gluing of wood or masonite strips. The curves can be formed freehand instead of having to be figured out on paper and recreated in wood. Even easements, vertical or horizontal would be easy with the flexibility of PVC. Unlike wood or masonite, the PVC pipe is flexible in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

Thank You You have saved me a World of Grief as was wondering how I was going to replaced several sections of curved track that I had originally set on laminated spline. This looks like a suitable alternative.

Fergie

I'm actually starting to work on the process in my mind and I'm also looking at the process of "superelevating" the curves. I really think is the answer to my prayers. As to when I will get to it will depend on the "Ta-Do" list and how much rain is in the forecast.

Rain=MR'ng

Fergie

[electrolove]

Thanks for your input, to use latex caulk is a very nice idea. It will also be stronger because it will not crack like cement (maybe) do over time.

This is version 2 of the pipe roadbed method.

I used masking tape on the underside of the pipes. Then I added cement between the pipes!!! You don't need to cut all these masonite pieces anymore. Just glue cork roadbed on top of the cement. The cement will not move at all because the round shape of the pipes will no allow it. My cement was not fresh so I got lumps in it. I will try to even out the surface by adding a thin layer of spackle.

Electro,

Instead of cement between the PVC pipes, wouldn't it be easier to use latex caulk?  The caulk would be a better filler, easier to level and not be lumpy.  Once dry, the caulk would also help to reinforce and retain the shape of the curved pipe, as well as give you more compliant surface to use push pins in when laying cork and/or track.

Just a thought...

Tom

[0-6-0]

Hello instead of caulk you might want to try great stuff the from in a can. I think it would go father then the caulk. They make some that will expand and some that won't depends on how much you need to fill. It can be saned,cut,ect . Hope this helps Frank

[Fergmiester]

Electro:

I'v used a similiar method in the past but what I'm think'n now may take alot of the tedium out og the process... Pictures will be forthcoming!

Fergie,

I learned a method to superelevate the track by Pelle Soeborg in his wonderful book Mountain to Desert. Glue small styrene pieces (around 6 by 6 mm) to the underside of your ties, 15 ties apart. Start with 0.25 mm, then 0,5, 0,75 and finally 1 mm for the rest of the curve. Then go down to zero again. I have tried it and that gives me a very nice superelevation.

Fergie,

If you ever try this for your curve, please post something about it with pictures and text. I would appreciate that a lot.

Electrolove, I find this to be a very interesting concept. Its construction is much like spine roadbed but without the cutting and gluing of wood or masonite strips. The curves can be formed freehand instead of having to be figured out on paper and recreated in wood. Even easements, vertical or horizontal would be easy with the flexibility of PVC. Unlike wood or masonite, the PVC pipe is flexible in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

Thank You You have saved me a World of Grief as was wondering how I was going to replaced several sections of curved track that I had originally set on laminated spline. This looks like a suitable alternative.

Fergie

I'm actually starting to work on the process in my mind and I'm also looking at the process of "superelevating" the curves. I really think is the answer to my prayers. As to when I will get to it will depend on the "Ta-Do" list and how much rain is in the forecast.

Rain=MR'ng

Fergie

[electrolove]

Fergie,

I'm looking forward to your pictures.

Electro:

I'v used a similiar method in the past but what I'm think'n now may take alot of the tedium out og the process... Pictures will be forthcoming!

Fergie,

I learned a method to superelevate the track by Pelle Soeborg in his wonderful book Mountain to Desert. Glue small styrene pieces (around 6 by 6 mm) to the underside of your ties, 15 ties apart. Start with 0.25 mm, then 0,5, 0,75 and finally 1 mm for the rest of the curve. Then go down to zero again. I have tried it and that gives me a very nice superelevation.

Fergie,

If you ever try this for your curve, please post something about it with pictures and text. I would appreciate that a lot.

Electrolove, I find this to be a very interesting concept. Its construction is much like spine roadbed but without the cutting and gluing of wood or masonite strips. The curves can be formed freehand instead of having to be figured out on paper and recreated in wood. Even easements, vertical or horizontal would be easy with the flexibility of PVC. Unlike wood or masonite, the PVC pipe is flexible in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

Thank You You have saved me a World of Grief as was wondering how I was going to replaced several sections of curved track that I had originally set on laminated spline. This looks like a suitable alternative.

Fergie

I'm actually starting to work on the process in my mind and I'm also looking at the process of "superelevating" the curves. I really think is the answer to my prayers. As to when I will get to it will depend on the "Ta-Do" list and how much rain is in the forecast.

Rain=MR'ng

Fergie

[electrolove]

Frank,

What is the name of the product?

Hello instead of caulk you might want to try great stuff the from in a can. I think it would go father then the caulk. They make some that will expand and some that won't depends on how much you need to fill. It can be saned,cut,ect . Hope this helps Frank

[mikept]

Electrolove,

I recently started building my benchwork and spline roadbed and have been trying a different material called "Crystal White".  It is manufactured by Louisiana Pacific and is used for moulding and screen trim.  I can get it at Lowes, however it is more expensive ($3.33/8ft/spline) than most other spline material used, but it is convenient and neat.  I have pictures of it on my web site:

http://home.mchsi.com/~mtuomala/index.html

 Just another way of doing spline roadbed.

           Mike

[BlueHillsCPR]

Frank,

What is the name of the product?

electro, the product Frank mentions is called Great Stuff.  It is an adhesive insulating foam.

[0-6-0]

Hello electrolove it is called great stuff. here is a site should tell you more about it. www.greatstuff.dow.com  hope this helps Frank

[Dick Friedman]

This is the first time I've heard of someone trying this in the littler scales <G>!  This is done frequently in Large Scale modeling.  There's even a manufacturer of subroadbed sections that mount on 1 inch schedule 40 (the thicker walled) pvc.

 One member of our club uses 2 inch PVC and Tee fittings to make columns which support 2 in by 6 inch (sorry for the US measurements, but that's how you buy them here) pressure treated lumber.  It is very rugged and supports heavy locomotives.  Unfortunately, it looks like white pipe, but he plans to bury much of it in plants and dirt!

 Let us know how this turns out!

[Loco]

Nice work there Mikept. 

[Loco]

One thing I'd toss into the conversation is the possible use of ABS pipe.  It's black and when using concreat, will bond better with it.  Just not sure if you can get it in the smaller sizes as it's mainly used for gray water.  Also there might be a flexability issue with it.

With my new train room, this whole subject of spline or going with the cooky cutter plywood issue is on top of my list.

[pastoolio]

Easy thought for superelevation, couldn't you just put the outside PVC pipe up a little taller than the inside PVC pipe around the corners? This would give you a natural rise of the outside as it goes into the curve. Seems like all you'd have to do is put a shim under the outside PVC pipe where you secure it to the benchwork. And because the pipe is rounded, it would still keep the cork smooth between each pipe. And no using alot of small shims under the track.

-Mike 

[doneldon]

I'd be careful with the vermiculite.  It's an asbestos product.

 

[cuyama]

Sorry to rain on the parade, but I think there are some practical reasons why this is not being used already. Leveling and smoothing the concrete (if that's what is used) will be a challenge, to say the least. PVC doesn't necessarily hold a set, so with the masonite cross-tie alternative there is the chance of sagging and of curve radii and grades changing without a lot of risers (so many as to make any savings over plywood small or moot, most likely).

Expanding foam isntead fo concrete is pretty hard to control and will require lots of chiseling and sanding to get level and smooth. The foam will also tend to push the PVC pipes away from each other as it expands. And it would take a lot of caulk to fill the gap between pipes, although at least it is self leveling to a degree.

So perhaps except for short runs in a specialized location, I just don't see how this is going to be better than the more traditional subroadbeds from a cost, time-to-construct, or long-term reliability standpoint. Maybe if you have a left-over semi-trailer of PVC in the backyard ...

[pike-62]

I'd be careful with the vermiculite.  It's an asbestos product.

 

Please read this site and research others before panicking.

http://www.vermiculite.net/

 

[Fergmiester]

Easy thought for superelevation, couldn't you just put the outside PVC pipe up a little taller than the inside PVC pipe around the corners? This would give you a natural rise of the outside as it goes into the curve. Seems like all you'd have to do is put a shim under the outside PVC pipe where you secure it to the benchwork. And because the pipe is rounded, it would still keep the cork smooth between each pipe. And no using alot of small shims under the track.

-Mike 

What I'm actually thinking is this

The pipe is started on a straight section and as it rounds into the turn the inside track is allowed to dip until the right angle of depression is achieved. All "stilts" are cut on the desired angle and fastened in place under the track at the desired height/clearance and the pipe is glued in place. Hard to visualize but I think with the Hurricane coming up the coast and hitting us this weekend the basement is where you will find me experimenting with this.

Fergie

haven't decided whether or not I'll be using masonite or  cork/masonite composite for the roadbed.

[tstage]

I learned a method to superelevate the track by Pelle Soeborg in his wonderful book Mountain to Desert. Glue small styrene pieces (around 6 by 6 mm) to the underside of your ties, 15 ties apart. Start with 0.25 mm, then 0,5, 0,75 and finally 1 mm for the rest of the curve. Then go down to zero again. I have tried it and that gives me a very nice superelevation.

Electro,

I actually glued strips of dimensional styrene - e.g. 1 x 8 and 2 x 8 (equivalent to your 0.25 mm and 0.5 mm) - directly on the underside and running parallel to the outside rail of my track to achieve the superelevation on my layout.  With sectional track I could glue the styrene directly to the ties with liquid adhesive.  With flex track, I had to glue it to the road bed and lay the track on top it.

I found longer strips faster and easier to lay.  I also allowed gaps (~2") between transition strips of styrene.

Tom

[electrolove]

Fergie,

Just wonder if you have any update on your experiment. I'm VERY interested :-)

Easy thought for superelevation, couldn't you just put the outside PVC pipe up a little taller than the inside PVC pipe around the corners? This would give you a natural rise of the outside as it goes into the curve. Seems like all you'd have to do is put a shim under the outside PVC pipe where you secure it to the benchwork. And because the pipe is rounded, it would still keep the cork smooth between each pipe. And no using alot of small shims under the track.

-Mike 

What I'm actually thinking is this

The pipe is started on a straight section and as it rounds into the turn the inside track is allowed to dip until the right angle of depression is achieved. All "stilts" are cut on the desired angle and fastened in place under the track at the desired height/clearance and the pipe is glued in place. Hard to visualize but I think with the Hurricane coming up the coast and hitting us this weekend the basement is where you will find me experimenting with this.

Fergie

haven't decided whether or not I'll be using masonite or  cork/masonite composite for the roadbed.

[electrolove]

I used ethyl acetate to glue the styrene strips to the understand of my ME track, worked perfect.

I learned a method to superelevate the track by Pelle Soeborg in his wonderful book Mountain to Desert. Glue small styrene pieces (around 6 by 6 mm) to the underside of your ties, 15 ties apart. Start with 0.25 mm, then 0,5, 0,75 and finally 1 mm for the rest of the curve. Then go down to zero again. I have tried it and that gives me a very nice superelevation.

Electro,

I actually glued strips of dimensional styrene - e.g. 1 x 8 and 2 x 8 (equivalent to your 0.25 mm and 0.5 mm) - directly on the underside and running parallel to the outside rail of my track to achieve the superelevation on my layout.  With sectional track I could glue the styrene directly to the ties with liquid adhesive.  With flex track, I had to glue it to the road bed and lay the track on top it.

I found longer strips faster and easier to lay.  I also allowed gaps (~2") between transition strips of styrene.

Tom