Ahhhh........
FSM Fine Scale Miniatures/Models(?) Aren't those the kits George Sellios sells? They usually are expensive and I've never seen one Myself.
DPM and Walthers work pretty good and cardstock, but whatever floats those guys' boat.
tatans wrote:YIKES: Just saw some building kits on eeeebay, some company called FSM, they started @ $200 and up to $400 and they were still bidding, one bid had 20 bids. $400.00 for a kit build???? Now I know why I scratch. can this be possible???
Not only is it possible, it is normal for the small number of these highly-desirable kits. I sometimes wonder if many purchasers ever build these. They are valued by collectors.
Mark
Those kits have been expensive for the last few years. FSM are Collectors kits. Some are probably never built.
George's site.
http://www.horailroad.com/fsm/
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
They are amazingly fine, beautifully detailed and very limited run kits, and as Richg said, they're very sought after by collectors.
Most of the ones I've seen, however, would look more comfortable on a layout with a New England theme--they don't seem 'transferrable' to, say, out here in the West.
But they're beautiful kits.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
If you get bored, here are some links concerning FSM kits.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fine+scale+miniatures+kits&btnG=Search
twhite wrote:They are amazingly fine, beautifully detailed and very limited run kits, and as Richg said, they're very sought after by collectors. Most of the ones I've seen, however, would look more comfortable on a layout with a New England theme--they don't seem 'transferrable' to, say, out here in the West. But they're beautiful kits. Tom
yeah i'd love for them to do a couple of old west kits , might even buy them if they weren't too silly priced brand new . i giggle when looking at the auctions for kits where the bidding goes over $400 and you can see the original $39 price tag on the box . makes me wish i'd have bought a bunch of them back in the 80's when i could afford them , i could sell them now and retire
ernie
That is why I scratchbuild too. That, cheap laser kits, and plastic kits. Plastic kits can be made to look good if you know what you are doing and take your time.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
George Sellios has just announced his new kit for 2008 on his web site http://www.finescaleminiatures.com/ a limited edition of 700 kits for $280 each. Some people freak out when they see this type of price for a kit, but it will most likely sell out quickly. It takes George a year to design and produce the kit. A lot of the time and cost is taken up in the custom castings that are made just for the kit. A modeler can expect to spend perhaps a hundred hours constructing the thing. As has been stated by others there has over the years developed a vibrant after market for these kits. The rare ones that are more desirable sell for silly money. There are many that could take a fare stab at scratch-building the structure, but very few that could reproduce all the castings that make up the complete scene.
FSM has carved out quite a niche and the company has legions of fans that are more than willing to pay this price for the latest kit. Personally, I have great admiration for someone to command that sort of following. When you consider that this is the result of a year of someones work and that much of it is done by hand it puts it into a different context. One thing it is not is a mass produced item churned out of a factory in China.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
On some ebay listings, I see the letters"FSM" in the heading, even when the listing is not for a Fine Scale Miniatures product. What else might these initials stand for?
For example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Campbell-356-HO-HOn3-Water-Tank-Mint-in-Box-FSM_W0QQitemZ140259797988QQihZ004QQcategoryZ117370QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/BOOK-STEAM-CARS-TO-THE-COMSTOCK-FSM_W0QQitemZ310076617533QQihZ021QQcategoryZ484QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-DPM-SHOE-UNDERWARE-CUSTOM-BUILT-WEATHERED-FSM_W0QQitemZ320289098809QQihZ011QQcategoryZ484QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/MODEL-RR-MAGAZINE-1965-9-ISSUES-FOR-ALL-SCALES-FSM_W0QQitemZ310077134082QQihZ021QQcategoryZ484QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
steemtrayn wrote: On some ebay listings, I see the letters"FSM" in the heading, even when the listing is not for a Fine Scale Miniatures product. What else might these initials stand for?
These bozos know that auctions for FSM kits - Fine Scale Miniatures - get a lot of visits, so they add "FSM" in their titles so people will visit their auctions and maybe bid on them. I think this actually may be against eBay rules as it is dishonest trickery.
I follow another forum and many of the members there go absolutely gaga when there is a new FSM or other similar craftsman kit announced, falling all over themselves saying they are getting one. Most are fine craftsmen, and could probably scratchbuild this newest Butchers Way on their own, only the castings are the hard part. Most could be substituted by other ones, exept possibly the animal caracasses. The structures are all basic boxes, could be made from scribed siding and/or stripwood. And for a whole lot less than $280.00!!
Some time ago I scratchbuilt a copy of FSM's "Baxters' Building Supplies", using photos from their ads in print and on their website.
But these guys love their kits, no matter what's in them!
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
I concur with Bob that on some of the other, much more advanced forums, one does see posters absolutely agog over the latest FSM kit and indeed these guys are of a calibur that they could undoubtedly scratchbuild a copy if they so desired - I've done so several times myself (see below). But what you are largely paying for in the FSM kits is George's limitless imagination, creativity and sense of superdetailing that seems to far exceed that of most of the rest of us.
George and the FSM kits have reached such mythic proportion as to attain something of a cult status among the hobby's more serious members. FSM kits have become a viable commodity in the marketplace, often commanding far more than their original selling price within just weeks of their issue (most runs are sold out before the official issue date). Older kits can manage several to a dozen times their original prices (often $300-$500 for the best examples) and I've seen completed models on dioramas go for $1,000+ on eBay. Nevertheless, by George's own estimate, probably half of the FSM kits are never built but rather are held for future sale by their owners as a sort of investment.
(scratch version of FSM Jeffries Point Stave & Heading Co. kit)
CNJ831
I was looking at the Franklin and South Manchester online the other day and my wife (who insists on looking over my shoulder while I'm surfing) asked "wow. are you going to build stuff like that" to which I replied, "honey, if I could build models like that I could quit my day job"
THose must be Fine Scale Miniatures kits. They are made by Gerge Selios and announced somehere (I don't eve recall seeing one of his ads) before they are made/ Only those that are subscribed to are made. This means small production runs and hence high prices.
I've seen pictures of the built up kits and they look great but I am not to drop that kind of money on any building kit, especially ones that that are not N Scale. But I can't say that George is doing anything wrong here. It's his business and he can run it anyway he wants.
Irv
FSM kits, IMHO, are rather like Ferraris - if you want one, price is no object. If you NEED one, you must be racing in Formula I! If all you need is dependable, inexpensive transportation...
Since I am modeling a very specific prototype area that doesn't even begin to resemble depression-era New England, I look at FSM kits as something that must interest somebody, but not the somebody who takes off his shoes just inside my front door.
I learned to scratchbuild back when the only available alternatives were Ideal cardboard kits and Plasticville - both unaffordable to a schoolkid with a miniscule allowance. Now, I won't hesitate for a heartbeat to take cutting tools to materials and fabricate what I want - which is very seldom what some kit manufacturer has produced, is producing or ever will produce.
Just last week I bought a well-known industrial model kit, not to build as-is, but to kitbash into the several buildings I need to finish a believable model of a Japanese colliery I 'mine-fanned' half a century ago. The only thing the two have in common is corrugated iron siding.
I can't imagine somebody buying a FSM kit to use for kitbash fodder.
Chuck (kitbashing and scratchbuilding Central Japan in September, 1964)
tatans wrote:some company called FSM, they started @ $200 and up to $400 and they were still bidding, one bid had 20 bids. $400.00 for a kit build???? Now I know why I scratch. can this be possible???
There are other kits out there just as good--maybe better--, but they don't have the brand recognition the FSM has.
When I first started my kit company I asked myself, "What can I bring to the market that would be really hard for the average modeler to duplicate on his own?". The answer was highly detailed hydrocal kits that feature weathered stone, brick and concrete castings.
While many modelers will buy a bunch of stripwood, a few sheets of scribed siding & attempt to duplicate a high dollar wood kit, most don't have enough time to put on a magnifier and hand scribe thousands of weathered bricks, one at a time. I do it for you. : )
Randy Pepprock
Downtown Deco
PS. I only have 8 left of our latest kit, DD1042, The Dead End Alleyway. Order soon to avoid disappointment.
tatans wrote:You forgot the PRICE.
The Dead End Alleyway is a seven building set that features 3 types of brick, cracked stucco, concrete and dilapitated clapboard. It retails at $279.95 + $15.00 S&H. You can see it at our site, www.downtowndeco.com MR had a photo in their "What's New?" section in July I think.
Randy PepprockDD
PASMITH wrote: tatans wrote:YIKES: Just saw some building kits on eeeebay, some company called FSM, they started @ $200 and up to $400 and they were still bidding, one bid had 20 bids. $400.00 for a kit build???? Now I know why I scratch. can this be possible???Scratching is always better.Peter Smith, Memphis
Not everyone has the skill/knowledge/ability to scratchbuild. So for them a kit may be the only answer. But many of use haven't built a kit that wasn't made out of plastic or even kitbashed a plastic kit to produce something else. But paying the amount of money FSM kits cost is also prohibitive.
downtowndeco wrote: tatans wrote:You forgot the PRICE. The Dead End Alleyway is a seven building set that features 3 types of brick, cracked stucco, concrete and dilapitated clapboard. It retails at $279.95 + $15.00 S&H. You can see it at our site, www.downtowndeco.com MR had a photo in their "What's New?" section in July I think. Randy PepprockDD
Not to put you or your efforts down, that isn't cheap either.
Several folks seem to be missing the point. These kits are not cheap, they are not meant to be cheap. There are plenty of cheap kits on the market for those that want to purchase cheap kits. These kits allow a modeller of modest ability to create works of art that only the most accomplished scratch builders can achieve. Actually, in most cases better because most modellers can't make the detail castings.
If you were to examine the number of hours of work that goes into the design and manufacturing of these items and factor in the materials costs you will likely find that these gentlemen are not overcharging. They are earning modest wage for their time to create these items. None of these guys are getting rich doing this!
Randy, just out of curiosity how many hours do you think you have in total in the design and prototyping of this kit?
On another forum there was a discussion which looked at the savings that would be achieved through scratch-building. With the cost of scribed siding and strip wood having gone up. When one adds in the cost of all the detail parts the savings are not nearly as great as one might imagine. For most scratch builders it does not feel like things are costing anything to make because the materials are all at hand having been purchased long ago.
Each to their own of course, but I don't think we can really knock these types of models for their cost as when one studies the economics of producing them in the US the price is not outlandish. Further more there is clearly a market for them. If Randy has sold out his production run he has clearly met a demand.
Of course you could always go and buy 7 Walthers made in China mass produced plastic structure kits for $30 odd each and spend best part of $250!
What I like about the kits is that I don't have to draw the plans or get all the detail parts. They are really scratch build with someone else's plans(modified ussually) and more cute details than I would ever find.
The cost of scratch building, if you count the cost of all those little packages of things, is not much cheaper.
I like to build them, not design them, so I think they are cool. Now to save another pile of money to get one.
simon1966 wrote: On another forum there was a discussion which looked at the savings that would be achieved through scratch-building. With the cost of scribed siding and strip wood having gone up. When one adds in the cost of all the detail parts the savings are not nearly as great as one might imagine. For most scratch builders it does not feel like things are costing anything to make because the materials are all at hand having been purchased long ago.
I'm sorry, Simon, but that is simply untrue. The Jeffries Point structure that I illustrated in my earlier post, is an exact copy of the FSM original, short of a few very similar detail castings I had to substitute for what would have come in the kit. It cost me slightly less than $50 in materials - TOTAL. I had none of the materials on-hand and I kept close track, so I know this to be fact. The FSM kit for this building was selling on-line for $300-$400 at the time.
I've since done a copy of FSM's Seafood Emporium kit, which cost me even less than Jeffries Point and that kit is typically in the $400 or better range today. My Jewel Series #1 Pile Driver, copied exactly from FSM plans, ran around $25-$30, with the kit currently being offered for $100-$150.
There is nothing difficult about replicating any FSM kit if you have any reasonable model building talent. Years ago, MR was filled with articles about scratch building and illustrations of readers efforts. For decades this was considered simply a basic skill that all serious model railroaders learned. One can save a great deal by scratchbuilding when it comes to replicating kits of FSM's calibur.
There are, however, surely people who have no interest in scratchbuilding and are quite willing to pay someone else to do all the design and research work for them.
It's all a matter of priorities, like anything else in this hobby. Allotting time to more personally enjoyable aspects while spending more money for ready to use items allows each person to enjoy what they like most, while minimizing the time spent on what they don't enjoy.
For some the price is not an issue, for others scratchbuilding makes more sense and is more fun.
I admire the work of both.
The fact that these limited runs of relatively expensive kits sell out illustrates that they need no justification from us. They are what they are, take them or leave them as you will. There is certainly a very attentive audience waiting each new offering.
I never said they were "cheap". But I think if the average modeler started to carve the patterns for a kit like this they'd think the kits were a bargin by the time they were done. : ). Cheers.
corsair7 wrote: downtowndeco wrote: tatans wrote:You forgot the PRICE. The Dead End Alleyway is a seven building set that features 3 types of brick, cracked stucco, concrete and dilapitated clapboard. It retails at $279.95 + $15.00 S&H. You can see it at our site, www.downtowndeco.com MR had a photo in their "What's New?" section in July I think. Randy PepprockDDNot to put you or your efforts down, that isn't cheap either. Irv
simon1966 wrote: Randy, just out of curiosity how many hours do you think you have in total in the design and prototyping of this kit?
I started the design of the kit last Oct. and have spent most of the time in between then & now designing, casting, packing & shipping it. It is my full time job (& I love it!).
They are very good kits, not for kids.
CNJ831 wrote: simon1966 wrote: On another forum there was a discussion which looked at the savings that would be achieved through scratch-building. With the cost of scribed siding and strip wood having gone up. When one adds in the cost of all the detail parts the savings are not nearly as great as one might imagine. For most scratch builders it does not feel like things are costing anything to make because the materials are all at hand having been purchased long ago.I'm sorry, Simon, but that is simply untrue. The Jeffries Point structure that I illustrated in my earlier post, is an exact copy of the FSM original, short of a few very similar detail castings I had to substitute for what would have come in the kit. It cost me slightly less than $50 in materials - TOTAL. I had none of the materials on-hand and I kept close track, so I know this to be fact. The FSM kit for this building was selling on-line for $300-$400 at the time. I've since done a copy of FSM's Seafood Emporium kit, which cost me even less than Jeffries Point and that kit is typically in the $400 or better range today. My Jewel Series #1 Pile Driver, copied exactly from FSM plans, ran around $25-$30, with the kit currently being offered for $100-$150. There is nothing difficult about replicating any FSM kit if you have any reasonable model building talent. Years ago, MR was filled with articles about scratch building and illustrations of readers efforts. For decades this was considered simply a basic skill that all serious model railroaders learned. One can save a great deal by scratchbuilding when it comes to replicating kits of FSM's calibur. CNJ831
What's "simply untrue"?
CNJ831, your point is valid but on the other forum the discussion centered around the retail price for a kit, not the inflated collectors price for a kit. All I said was that the savings were not nearly as great as people imagined. Not that there were no savings. $50 in materials to scratch build a structure is probably a lot more than some folks would think it would be, which was the point of the post.