<i>Who said fraud? I didn't. Your point becomes a straw-man's argument with that inference.</i>
He was replying to WaxonWaxov, who did use those words.
Andre
Paul3 wrote: Hudson,"Nanny, Nanny, boo-hoo"? Puh-leeze.What you are failing to realize here is that you are plain lucky, lucky to have someone make a high quality passenger train for your railroad that is actually affordable. Most likely, that will never happen for me or for most other model railroaders (unless they model the big roads like ATSF, SP, UP, PRR, NYC, MILW, GN, etc.). The street price for these Walthers cars is going to be around $52. I would love to be able to purchase some NH cars for only $50 a car. Where do I sign up?BTW, if these are all existing tooling other than two cars, why don't you go buy them at the lower price these came out as, and repaint them yourself? Then you only have to shell out $100 for these two unique cars and the rest you have for far less.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Hudson,"Nanny, Nanny, boo-hoo"? Puh-leeze.
What you are failing to realize here is that you are plain lucky, lucky to have someone make a high quality passenger train for your railroad that is actually affordable. Most likely, that will never happen for me or for most other model railroaders (unless they model the big roads like ATSF, SP, UP, PRR, NYC, MILW, GN, etc.). The street price for these Walthers cars is going to be around $52. I would love to be able to purchase some NH cars for only $50 a car. Where do I sign up?
BTW, if these are all existing tooling other than two cars, why don't you go buy them at the lower price these came out as, and repaint them yourself? Then you only have to shell out $100 for these two unique cars and the rest you have for far less.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Hey Paul,
I was just schukin' with you...Anyhow, I model B&A I don't need a 20th Century Limited set and I already have built two New England States..........
I just think a price jump of 50% in such short term is above and beyond reasonable.......I'm not buying them!
andrechapelon wrote: <i>Who said fraud? I didn't. Your point becomes a straw-man's argument with that inference.</i>He was replying to WaxonWaxov, who did use those words.Andre
Oops!!! My Bad!
Hmmmm.........Maybe we can get our pennies together, short their stock for a while.....
hehehe!
I just think a price jump of 50% is above and beyond reasonable.......I'm not buying them!
Neither am I, but not because of the price. And I'm sure Walthers is in a panic because the 2 of us aren't buying.
'Course, I could use a coupla more SP C30-1 cabeese.
Hudson wrote: Hmmmm.........Maybe we can get our pennies together, short their stock for a while..... hehehe!
If you're talking about Walthers, they're privately held. The best you could hope for is the opportunity to short-sheet Phil Walthers.
rayw46 wrote: What Walthers is charging may be irritating to you but price gouging it is not.
What Walthers is charging may be irritating to you but price gouging it is not.
If it isn't then what is the justification for the price? (Not that you or I would know)
50% is a pretty steep increase in a retail value for any item.
andrechapelon wrote: Hudson wrote: Hmmmm.........Maybe we can get our pennies together, short their stock for a while..... hehehe!If you're talking about Walthers, they're privately held. The best you could hope for is the opportunity to short-sheet Phil Walthers.Andre
Yup.........Like others have said, who is Walther's competition?
They have none to speak of, therefore you see price increses like this. Next thing you know their will be a "green belt" around Milwaukee.
Last Chance wrote:Commodity costs are up. Plastic = Oil and other materials.
If you think someone can come along and provide the same thing at a lower MSRP, you're going to be waiting a long time. The model railroad industry is tiny. The numbers just don't justify entering the business in direct competition. BLI/PCM didn't do that, they created a niche for themselves that other mfg's didn't address. Now Walthers, Bachmann, etc. are playing catchup in that segment.
They have none to speak of, therefore you see price increses like this.
Has it ever occurred to you that Walthers is paying more for the stuff they get from China? Wages have been rising in China. The day of "cooley" wages is rapidly disappearing in the distance. Happened in Japan. Happened in Korea. China is no longer a Third World Country.
Per capita GDP in 2007 was estimated by the CIA to be $5300 https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/ch.html (midway down page).
China got a late start. They're coming on like gangbusters.
Hudson wrote:I just think a price jump of 50% in such short term is above and beyond reasonable.......I'm not buying them!
Martin,
Then...isn't the purpose of this thread moot?
As already mentioned, a sharp rise in petroleum in recent months might have something to do with the higher price. China may also be charging more for their manufacturing efforts. The detailing may also better than in other offerings. I found this description for the Club Lounge car:
PLEASE NOTE: As these cars are the correct prototype length and feature full underbody detail to match the prototypes.
So, nobodys twisting your arm. You have the option to buy or not to buy. I'm sure Walthers will sell them either way...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
andrechapelon wrote: They have none to speak of, therefore you see price increses like this. Has it ever occurred to you that Walthers is paying more for the stuff they get from China?. Andre
Has it ever occurred to you that Walthers is paying more for the stuff they get from China?.
50% more? Still doesn't add up. read what Autobus has posted.............
Hudson wrote: andrechapelon wrote: They have none to speak of, therefore you see price increses like this. Has it ever occurred to you that Walthers is paying more for the stuff they get from China?. Andre 50% more? Still doesn't add up. read what Autobus has posted.............
I already did. What's your point?
If these cars had been available in 1960 with the same level of detail and manufacturing sophistication, they would have gone for about $8.75/each adjusting for inflation. Naturally, people would have kvetched about the price just like now. However, the cars still would have sold like hotcakes.
IIRC, a Walthers heavyweight (metal and wood) kit plus additional details plus trucks and couplers would have gone for about $8-9 or more back then. You'd still have to build the kit and paint it. The resulting model wouldn't even come close to what's available today, although Central Valley trucks were probably the best ever made.
I don't see what the bellyaching is all about. When BLI brought out its "California Zephyr" the cars were priced well above $60/each. http://www.broadway-limited.com/catalog/BLI_California_Zephyr_Cars_1st_Run_HO-1834-1.html
Maybe Walthers was charging too LITTLE for the Milwaukee cars.
OK, I've got 18-inch radius curves, and there's no way I'm gonna run big-time passenger trains on my 5x12 foot HO layout. So, I'm not familiar with any of these, so please bear with me.
From looking at the Walthers catalog, I gather that the Hiawatha's are not illuminated, right? So, maybe they're going to provide interior lights for the 20th Century. That would account for a lot of the increased cost, and would probably be an addition that most serious modellers want anyway.
Just a thought.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Going outside of model railroading manufacturing for the moment it appears that the prices for the made in China goods are indeed soaring.
Forget about paying more for the NYC Walthers items you will soon be paying more for any of your model railroad items that are made in China.
There was a reference made earlier to China now outsourcing to other countries. All too true your next boxcar may well be made in Hanoi.
andrechapelon wrote: Hudson wrote: andrechapelon wrote: They have none to speak of, therefore you see price increses like this. Has it ever occurred to you that Walthers is paying more for the stuff they get from China?. Andre 50% more? Still doesn't add up. read what Autobus has posted.............I already did. What's your point?I don't see what the bellyaching is all about. Maybe Walthers was charging too LITTLE for the Milwaukee cars.Andre
I don't see what the bellyaching is all about. Maybe Walthers was charging too LITTLE for the Milwaukee cars.
The point is that inflation and other factors most likely do not add up to justify the 50% increase. That leaves very few other reasons those would include lack of competition, and gouging. I'm not disputing the quality of the product. Walther's makes pretty good stuff. I have 50+ passenger and express cars from them. I'm not belly aching either, I could buy them today, and it wouldn't "hurt".
All I'm saying is that this offering in the series cost quite a bit more then recent past offerings. Other than some nebulous points about oil prices and Chinese labor... I see nothing offered up here or by the vendor that can explain such a difference in price.
Maybe it is the price of oil..............?? $114 on Bloomberg right now.............
don7 wrote: Going outside of model railroading manufacturing for the moment it appears that the prices for the made in China goods are indeed soaring.Forget about paying more for the NYC Walthers items you will soon be paying more for any of your model railroad items that are made in China.There was a reference made earlier to China now outsourcing to other countries. All too true your next boxcar may well be made in Hanoi.
I hope it becomes worth it to buy from the USA.............I try to do that as much as I can.
How 'bout writing or e-mail Walthers directly to get their feedback on why there is such a huge increase in cost for the new offerings? Better to hear it from the horse's mouth than for us to speculate all day long...
tstage wrote: Martin,How 'bout writing or e-mail Walthers directly to get their feedback on why there is such a huge increase in cost for the new offerings? Better to hear it from the horse's mouth than for us to speculate all day long... Tom
You beat me to it. This reminds me of the T55 thread where folks were just speculating, when it was really simple to call Brian Marsh (which I did), and get the real scoop.
Good idea...........It's the fair thing.
L heartily OL!!!!!
Well if the cars are new tooling, have full underbody detail, factory installed lighting, sperate grabs and lot of other goodies and cost 65 bucks.
From what I read about it (I'm not an NYC fan, I know someone who is) the level of detail seems to be the same or better as the Rapido cars (and about the same price), and they are NYC-specific cars that to me seems about right.
I'm not buying, I'll just stick with my DRGW passenger set (FT ABBA and 13 rivorassi cars, everything with kadees and weight, 100 bucks) until someone comes out with a BN E-unit, so I can get some of the Empire builder cars in BN to get a good train.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
Hudson wrote: don7 wrote: Going outside of model railroading manufacturing for the moment it appears that the prices for the made in China goods are indeed soaring.Forget about paying more for the NYC Walthers items you will soon be paying more for any of your model railroad items that are made in China.There was a reference made earlier to China now outsourcing to other countries. All too true your next boxcar may well be made in Hanoi. I hope it becomes worth it to buy from the USA.............I try to do that as much as I can.
I say let China and the other cheap labor countries raise prices through the roof! Let's bring those jobs back home to the US! Prices on cheap Chinese crap at Wal Mart is up 20-30% over last year alone. I've read that a price increase of 35-40% would make it more worth while to make the products here.
I just got an E-mail from Hobbies USA. They said they will be discounting these cars more than 25%. I bet when these things come in stock, the prices will be a lot lower than $65.
Hudson wrote: I'm curious. I know the price of oil has gone up, but per car "The 20th Century Limited" they plan to release is on average $20.00 more. Hiawatha cars retailed at $44.95. 20th Century cars will retail at at least $64.00. That's a tremendous increase in price over a similiar equivalent product.Do you feel they're just taking advantage of a captive customer base?I think it stinks of price gouging.Your thoughts?
I'm curious. I know the price of oil has gone up, but per car "The 20th Century Limited" they plan to release is on average $20.00 more. Hiawatha cars retailed at $44.95. 20th Century cars will retail at at least $64.00. That's a tremendous increase in price over a similiar equivalent product.
Do you feel they're just taking advantage of a captive customer base?
I think it stinks of price gouging.
Your thoughts?
Stop your complaining. Those prices are a bargain. If authentic, well-detailed SP heavyweight models were offered at that price, I'd snap them up AFAP. Sure beats paying $450 and up for good brass models. My bank account is going to be wiped out after the next Coach Yard shipment.
Mark
Hudson wrote: rayw46 wrote: What Walthers is charging may be irritating to you but price gouging it is not. If it isn't then what is the justification for the price? (Not that you or I would know)50% is a pretty steep increase in a retail value for any item.
Sorry, but you're missing the point. Price gouging is more or less a legal term referring to a business that's raises prices on essential goods (i.e., food, water, generators, etc.) during a crisis situation (i.e., flood, hurricane, etc.) A retailer charging 5 times the going rate for food immediately after a hurricane when people have no other alternative for finding food is price gouging. Walthers may be overcharging when it sets its MSRP for this car at $64 but it is not price gouging. Walthers may or may not do so, but is not under any obligation to, "justify," to you what it charges. You're not some kind of a regulator. I take that back, you and the rest of us are, but not in the sense you think you are (by complaining), but to an extent we all can effect prices through our pocketbooks. Like I wrote before, if you're all bent out of shape about the price, don't buy the car and if enough people do the same the price will come down.
Ray
rayw46 wrote: Hudson wrote: rayw46 wrote: What Walthers is charging may be irritating to you but price gouging it is not. If it isn't then what is the justification for the price? (Not that you or I would know)50% is a pretty steep increase in a retail value for any item. Sorry, but you're missing the point. Price gouging is more or less a legal term referring to a business that's raises prices on essential goodsRay
Sorry, but you're missing the point. Price gouging is more or less a legal term referring to a business that's raises prices on essential goodsRay
Nope, that's only the definition of the felony crime. Their is a broader definition as well, I'm not missing any point.
Is Walther's sacred territory that I'm stepping upon?
markpierce wrote: Hudson wrote: I'm curious. I know the price of oil has gone up, but per car "The 20th Century Limited" they plan to release is on average $20.00 more. Hiawatha cars retailed at $44.95. 20th Century cars will retail at at least $64.00. That's a tremendous increase in price over a similiar equivalent product.Do you feel they're just taking advantage of a captive customer base?I think it stinks of price gouging.Your thoughts?Stop your complaining. Those prices are a bargain. If authentic, well-detailed SP heavyweight models were offered at that price, I'd snap them up AFAP. Sure beats paying $450 and up for good brass models. My bank account is going to be wiped out after the next Coach Yard shipment.Mark
Who's complaining? Are you happy when you fill the tank too?
It's apples and oranges comparing brass to plastic. It's as senseless to compare a Corvette to a Ferrari. Walther's cars as nice as they are still don't compare to the craftsmanship of state of the art brass models. Like Railway Classics or Challenger Imports for instance.
I'm talking about the price of good plastic rolling stock compared to other good plastic rolling stock.
loathar wrote: Hudson wrote: I hope it becomes worth it to buy from the USA.............I try to do that as much as I can.I say let China and the other cheap labor countries raise prices through the roof! Let's bring those jobs back home to the US! Prices on cheap Chinese crap at Wal Mart is up 20-30% over last year alone. I've read that a price increase of 35-40% would make it more worth while to make the products here.I just got an E-mail from Hobbies USA. They said they will be discounting these cars more than 25%. I bet when these things come in stock, the prices will be a lot lower than $65.
Hudson wrote: I hope it becomes worth it to buy from the USA.............I try to do that as much as I can.
I wholeheartedly agree...........The sad thing is that quite a few American consumers seem happy to be screwed all the way to the bank.
I don't have a dog in this fight, and I'm not a big fan of Walther's pricing on many things, most notably 40 year old Heljan kits that are marketed as Cornerstone that run 40 and 50 bucks... How long ago was THAT tooling paid for??.
However, it seems that the creation of a highly customized model of a very specific prototype is going to be very expensive to tool, and have a very limited base of buyers. Outside of NYC modelers and passenger train enthusiasts, this is not going to showing up on a lot of layouts. They've set the price based on anticipated sales, cost recovery, and probably a modest profit margin. Walthers isn't a charity, and they don't set their prices by asking you what you want to pay.
The cost of raw materials barely scratches the surface. Not only has plastic shot through the roof, but how about the transportation to get it here, then on to your local hobby shop? And how about that "underbody detail." Why not complain about that? I mean, the only time you'll be able to enjoy that detail is when your train has derailed badly, or if you never run it. To me that's a colossal waste.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Paul3 wrote: Please forgive me if I don't feel that much sympathy for NYC fans.If I want to model the New Haven's crack 1948 passenger train (the Merchants Limited in stainless steel), I have a 4 options:1). Pay $400 per car for the recent run in RTR brass (only $4000 for a ten car set!)2). Pay $100-$150 per car for a 30 year old run of undec. brass from Soho, then paint them myself. No interiors, no details, and lousy trucks.3). Pay $50 per car for brass passenger car sides w/ plastic core kit, and spend several hours building them, adding trucks, interiors, details, etc., then paint them.4). Scratchbuild or kitbash them from ECW parts.Gee, I sure wish someone would make my railroad's crack passenger train for only $65 per car...cars that were painted accurately, had a full interiors, great running trucks, great details, and they even had lighting kits available for them.Sigh.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Please forgive me if I don't feel that much sympathy for NYC fans.
If I want to model the New Haven's crack 1948 passenger train (the Merchants Limited in stainless steel), I have a 4 options:
1). Pay $400 per car for the recent run in RTR brass (only $4000 for a ten car set!)2). Pay $100-$150 per car for a 30 year old run of undec. brass from Soho, then paint them myself. No interiors, no details, and lousy trucks.3). Pay $50 per car for brass passenger car sides w/ plastic core kit, and spend several hours building them, adding trucks, interiors, details, etc., then paint them.4). Scratchbuild or kitbash them from ECW parts.
Gee, I sure wish someone would make my railroad's crack passenger train for only $65 per car...cars that were painted accurately, had a full interiors, great running trucks, great details, and they even had lighting kits available for them.
Sigh.
Paul, have you looked at River Point Station's website? They plan on releasing NH's PSCM cars individually. The cars are made of ABS plastic, the same as BLI's CZ Zephyr. You'all need to quit gripping. You've got it made in regards to passengers cars. Since I model business trains, my only option is to buy brass. I currently have reserved two cars from The Coach Yard at 495.00 each or about 1,000.00 for the two. 65.00 per NYC car is a bargin. The only existing tooling used is for the 4-4-2 sleeper. All the rest of the cars rely on new tooling.
link to River Point Station for Paul
http://www.riverpointstation.com/
Charlie
MP 53 on the BNSF Topeka Sub