I'm curious. I know the price of oil has gone up, but per car "The 20th Century Limited" they plan to release is on average $20.00 more. Hiawatha cars retailed at $44.95. 20th Century cars will retail at at least $64.00. That's a tremendous increase in price over a similiar equivalent product.
Do you feel they're just taking advantage of a captive customer base?
I think it stinks of price gouging.
Your thoughts?
It's price-gouging due to the increase of the price of oil (which is down by the way)
Most retailers, especially grocery stores, are commiting this fraud right now.
I wish there was a good competetor for Walthers. Seems like the price of this hobby would drop if there were.
Did you see the Labor Department's Producer Price Index numbers that came out yesterday? Gack. Biggest increase in 27 years.
These cars were announced for Summer 2009 delivery. That's a long time away, and there is a lot of financial uncertainty over that interval. I think we can be safe in saying that a year from now, today's Hiawatha prices will look like real bargains.
Several things are going to force prices up. First, the dollar has remained low, and the Fed appears to be holding interest rates down to keep the economy on "life support," as one commentator on NPR said last night. The Fed's actions will continue to make the dollar a less attractive currency. Second, wages in general in China are going up, as their economy modernizes. Overall world inflationary pressures are feeling the pinch of food costs, in particular. Third, plastic comes from oil, and we know where those prices are going.
So, I think Walthers is just pricing these things in accordance with their best estimates on cost, including what they got for bids from their Asian factories.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
The yellow "UP" versions of the Hiawatha cars are retailing for $54.98 so apparently prices are increasing across the board. As I mentioned in a different post, model trains get hit twice by oil prices: one, the cost of shipping the models from China; and two, plastic is a petroleum-based product...so at least to some extent, models are affected both ways.
Plus it isn't cheap to create a new model from scratch, especially nowadays where the slightest inaccuracy gets ragged on by the 'experts'. I also suspect the new NYC cars will have factory-applied grabs, like their Superliner cars do now, which would add to the cost.
Bottom line is (as has been said above) it's up to you. These special run trains (Super Chief, Empire Builder, etc.) are meant to target specific audiences. If you model New York Central in the forties or fifties these cars are a bargain compared to comparable brass cars. (Ask the guys around here who paid $2000 for a train of brass Hiawatha cars - which IIRC came without interiors.) If you don't model NYC in that period, you probably wouldn't be buying them even if they cost half as much...unless a key part of your hobby is collecting rather than modelling I guess??
MisterBeasley wrote: . Fed appears to be holding interest rates down to keep the economy on "life support," as one commentator on NPR said last night. The Fed's actions will continue to make the dollar a less attractive currency.
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Fed appears to be holding interest rates down to keep the economy on "life support," as one commentator on NPR said last night. The Fed's actions will continue to make the dollar a less attractive currency.
That doesn't sound like a good thing.
wjstix wrote: Bottom line is (as has been said above) it's up to you. These special run trains (Super Chief, Empire Builder, etc.) are meant to target specific audiences. If you model New York Central in the forties or fifties these cars are a bargain compared to comparable brass cars. (Ask the guys around here who paid $2000 for a train of brass Hiawatha cars - which IIRC came without interiors.) If you don't model NYC in that period, you probably wouldn't be buying them even if they cost half as much...unless a key part of your hobby is collecting rather than modelling I guess??
Brass has really gotten "hurt" by the weak dollar. A great many importers have postponed and/or cancelled projects because the pricese have soared. I was on a waiting list for the 1935 20th Century Limited at a cost of $3200.00. Before the project was cancelled the price had increased to over $5200.00 (!!!!) for the set.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
jeffrey-wimberly wrote:Probably for the same reason the a wheel bearing for Cadillac costs seven times more than the very same part for a Chevy. Look at the name.
You mean the "Hiawatha" is a Chevy??
Hudson wrote: jeffrey-wimberly wrote:Probably for the same reason the a wheel bearing for Cadillac costs seven times more than the very same part for a Chevy. Look at the name. You mean the "Hiawatha" is a Chevy??
No, he was an Iroquois.
That's probably about 80% of the problem.
NHS Hobbies says they offer a 20% discount on any Walthers item you order through them. Or the current Walthers sale price. Whichever is lower.
By the shore of Gitche Gumee
By the shining big sea water
In the cab of Restless Diesel
(Borrowed from the song of Clapton)
Hiawatha sat and waited
All the air was full of freshness
The semaphores were horizontal
All the lamps were red with fire
Whilst a surly freight departed
Loaded with the steel rectangles
Brought across the Great Pacific
Stacked upon the waiting flatcars
Hauled across the mighty nation
To the wigwam of Bill Walthers
Till the distant FRED departed
And the signals gave permission
For his throttle to be opened
WaxonWaxov wrote: I wish there was a good competetor for Walthers. Seems like the price of this hobby would drop if there were.
And who would compete with them? Walthers seems to have bought just about any competitor. Besdides, these cars are probably going to be made overseas and while they'll carry a Walthers label they'll be made by someone else who will most likely market these cars overseas as well.
I am afraid the market for model railroad locomotives, cars and other stuff is shrinking since ther are few youngsters who can either afford or have the desire tobome model railroaders. And it is the same in most other hobbies as well.
Irv
Just wait for them to go on sale like all the other "special run" cars and series they have done.
This is just like the car industry, remember the Miata,,Thunderbird? What did people do but pay above retail for these cars because of demand! Once the cars where out they could not eventually give them away. Maybe not the Miata, But T-bird, yes.
Unless you just have to be the first to have this model , just wait and let the sales fall. Look how cheap the SF Cheif cars are now in sales ad. I have bought numerous cars for 14.99 each from walthers sale flyers.
But all this aside, if you want the cars just buy them!!! You only live once, unless your James Bond!!!
It is most likely the same exact part. Besides much f the price increase is made thru something called "transfer pricing." Under this concept each division of General Motors has a profit factor built into the manufacture of certain poarts which are sold to other divisions of the corporation. in effect, wha this does is to hide the real profits to GM by Increasing manufacturing costs to the final division. So Cadillac buys the parts from Chevrolet at Chevrolet's cost plus a profit margin which then becomes part of Cadillac's manufacturing costs. The end result: When the costs and profits of GM are calculated, the profit for Chevrolet is cancelled out by the Cadillac's manufacturing costs and that's why Cadillacs cost twice as much as comparable Chevrolets.
Please forgive me if I don't feel that much sympathy for NYC fans.
If I want to model the New Haven's crack 1948 passenger train (the Merchants Limited in stainless steel), I have a 4 options:
1). Pay $400 per car for the recent run in RTR brass (only $4000 for a ten car set!)2). Pay $100-$150 per car for a 30 year old run of undec. brass from Soho, then paint them myself. No interiors, no details, and lousy trucks.3). Pay $50 per car for brass passenger car sides w/ plastic core kit, and spend several hours building them, adding trucks, interiors, details, etc., then paint them.4). Scratchbuild or kitbash them from ECW parts.
Gee, I sure wish someone would make my railroad's crack passenger train for only $65 per car...cars that were painted accurately, had a full interiors, great running trucks, great details, and they even had lighting kits available for them.
Sigh.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul3 wrote: Please forgive me if I don't feel that much sympathy for NYC fans.If I want to model the New Haven's crack 1948 passenger train (the Merchants Limited in stainless steel), I have a 4 options:1). Pay $400 per car for the recent run in RTR brass (only $4000 for a ten car set!)2). Pay $100-$150 per car for a 30 year old run of undec. brass from Soho, then paint them myself. No interiors, no details, and lousy trucks.3). Pay $50 per car for brass passenger car sides w/ plastic core kit, and spend several hours building them, adding trucks, interiors, details, etc., then paint them.4). Scratchbuild or kitbash them from ECW parts.Gee, I sure wish someone would make my railroad's crack passenger train for only $65 per car...cars that were painted accurately, had a full interiors, great running trucks, great details, and they even had lighting kits available for them.Sigh.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
I am with you on this one. I had to build quite a few cars from brass car sides in order to get an accurate Super Chief/El Capitan. The CIL cars were way out of my price range, and the older Soho and Lambert cars just didn't cut it. I am also in the process of modeling a late '50s Sunset Limited and have to use styrene sides since nobody makes those cars in plastic. By the time all is said and done, building a car with brass or styrene sides still exceeds the cost in dollars and effort than what Walthers wants for the RTR Limited cars.
Paul3 wrote: Please forgive me if I don't feel that much sympathy for NYC fans.Sigh.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Nanny, Nanny, boo-hoo. Come around Tuesday morning, they're handing out medals.
That's not what the post is about. You're comparing apples to oranges. Wanna buy an available 20th century brass set?:
http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=66540
$6800.00. Same price as your "Merchant's Limited". $400.00 per car.
To top it off the only "new" tooling Walther's has to come up with is for the observation cars and maybe the 22-roomette sleeper. The rest is a paint job. I don't see how that totals up to a 50% increase in cost over an equivalent product.
Hudson wrote: I'm curious. I know the price of oil has gone up, but per car "The 20th Century Limited" they plan to release is on average $20.00 more. Hiawatha cars retailed at $44.95. 20th Century cars will retail at at least $64.00. That's a tremendous increase in price over a similiar equivalent product.Do you feel they're just taking advantage of a captive customer base?I think it stinks of price gouging.Your thoughts?
I suggest you purchase the company and find out!
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
I shake my head when I see terms slung about, terms like "fraud" and "captive audience". Has anyone strong-armed anyone else and made them open their wallets? Anyone forced them to model the NYC? Anyone watch you walk into the store, kept a sneering eye-contact, and then marked up the price while you watched?
Before we use terms carelessly, we should pause a moment and reflect on their meaning. No one is commiting fraud unless it is to try to misrepresent the truth. Prices are neither true nor false...they represent an offer of sale with the hope of getting a profit. If you elect to forego the purchase, and don't wish to negotiate, there is no profit...simple. No one is a captive but by their own desire and choice in business...unless we're in a monopolisitic situation with staples and essentials. Hobby stuff was never essential, and sure as aitch isn't a staple.
-Crandell
Just a little side-note from NBC's coverage of the Beijing Olympics...
China has recently enacted a minimum wage/minimum benefit package/maximum hours law for industrial workers that has increased the cost of production so much that some Chinese companies are outsourcing their production to Vietnam - in search of lower labor costs!
Don't be surprised if, when they DO show up, the Walthers 20th Century Limited cars come in boxes labeled Made in Hanoi.
And if you insist on complaining, just check the prices of RTR JNR rolling stock (in Japan, in Yen.) Then add a currency exchange fee, transocean shipping and customs duties...
Boy, am I glad that I bought almost everything I need when the Yen/dollar exchange rate was 360:1.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I have 14 walthers heavyweights bought new at about 44 dollars each and change after taxes. Took me three years to get them all in ones and twoses.
I am up to 60 dollars per car more or less on the Rapdio Passenger cars. I missed out on three coaches but they are not that vital to my plans on this set.
Commodity costs are up. Plastic = Oil and other materials. I expect them to go up as well. Same with Model Kits, paints etc. All of which have already gone up.
A club member bought his passenger set at half price on clearance so... those who wait long enough gets a bargin. Others like me, tend to buy them off the store on day one because of limited productions.
Looking at it another way, once debt is paid off such as cars the purchasing or saving power will far surpass any modest increase walthers or anyone may place onto MSRP's of these train items.
If yer wondering why I bought Heavyweights in the age of Chessie, well... waiting 30 years for a GOOD set of heavyweights was worth it.
Knowcents wrote: Just wait for them to go on sale like all the other "special run" cars and series they have done. This is just like the car industry, remember the Miata,,Thunderbird? What did people do but pay above retail for these cars because of demand! Once the cars where out they could not eventually give them away. Maybe not the Miata, But T-bird, yes.Unless you just have to be the first to have this model , just wait and let the sales fall. Look how cheap the SF Cheif cars are now in sales ad. I have bought numerous cars for 14.99 each from walthers sale flyers.But all this aside, if you want the cars just buy them!!! You only live once, unless your James Bond!!!
Gee Jeff....i didn't know you could get so rowdy!...those GUYS (this thing won't let me type what i really want to call them) at Walther's! LOL....by the way...ask Landau about his new bean car......
csmith9474,Yep, that's my point. Walthers makes a fine product, even at $65 a car. They are far and away better quality than all but the latest brass cars of the past 10 years or so. It was not too long ago that the only choices for plastic passenger cars were either shorties (72' Athearns, etc.) or Rivarossi/Con-Cor cars that were fine...for the 1970's.
It's like the NH NE-5 cabooses from Intermountain. They cost $50, which is a little steep compared to the Atlas NE-6's that were only $27 (almost an identical caboose in size). But I look at it like this: To get an NE-5 otherwise would cost me 2 to 5 times that $50, as they are only available in brass. An NE-5 for $50 is a bargain compared to that Overland NE-5 for $250.
Hudson,"Nanny, Nanny, boo-hoo"? Puh-leeze.
What you are failing to realize here is that you are plain lucky, lucky to have someone make a high quality passenger train for your railroad that is actually affordable. Most likely, that will never happen for me or for most other model railroaders (unless they model the big roads like ATSF, SP, UP, PRR, NYC, MILW, GN, etc.). The street price for these Walthers cars is going to be around $52. I would love to be able to purchase some NH cars for only $50 a car. Where do I sign up?
BTW, if these are all existing tooling other than two cars, why don't you go buy them at the lower price these came out as, and repaint them yourself? Then you only have to shell out $100 for these two unique cars and the rest you have for far less.
Knowcents wrote:This is just like the car industry, remember the Miata,,Thunderbird? What did people do but pay above retail for these cars because of demand!
The Apple iPhone comes to mind along those lines. It was $600 when it first came out. Soon Apple dropped the price to around $450 and the folks you had to have it on Day 1 complained.
If I were buying them, I'd reserve and buy 2 or 3 of the essential cars at MSRP...then wait and see it I couldn't pick up the rest on sale.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
What Walthers is charging may be irritating to you but price gouging it is not. A 20th Century Limited passenger car is not a necessity of life like food always, or sand bags in a time of flooding. So as a business, Walthers can charge whatever they want under whatever circumstances. And you as a consumer can choose not to buy the car at their price. Besides, you know they'll be discounted and in fact the fewer modelers who buy them at whatever price they're actually offered, the lower the price will go.
selector wrote: I shake my head when I see terms slung about, terms like "fraud" and "captive audience". Has anyone strong-armed anyone else and made them open their wallets? Anyone forced them to model the NYC? Anyone watch you walk into the store, kept a sneering eye-contact, and then marked up the price while you watched?Before we use terms carelessly, we should pause a moment and reflect on their meaning. No one is commiting fraud unless it is to try to misrepresent the truth. Prices are neither true nor false...they represent an offer of sale with the hope of getting a profit. If you elect to forego the purchase, and don't wish to negotiate, there is no profit...simple. No one is a captive but by their own desire and choice in business...unless we're in a monopolisitic situation with staples and essentials. Hobby stuff was never essential, and sure as aitch isn't a staple.-Crandell
Who said fraud? I didn't. Your point becomes a straw-man's argument with that inference.