Hudson wrote: tstage wrote: Martin,How 'bout writing or e-mail Walthers directly to get their feedback on why there is such a huge increase in cost for the new offerings? Better to hear it from the horse's mouth than for us to speculate all day long... Tom Good idea...........It's the fair thing.
tstage wrote: Martin,How 'bout writing or e-mail Walthers directly to get their feedback on why there is such a huge increase in cost for the new offerings? Better to hear it from the horse's mouth than for us to speculate all day long... Tom
Martin,
How 'bout writing or e-mail Walthers directly to get their feedback on why there is such a huge increase in cost for the new offerings? Better to hear it from the horse's mouth than for us to speculate all day long...
Tom
Good idea...........It's the fair thing.
You know, I really thought this thread would slow down once we got to the above point in the conversation...but I guess not.
Martin, let us know when you get a response from Walthers to your inquiry. In the meantime, why don't we find some other threads to post on. Thanks.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Hudson wrote: csmith9474 wrote: As far as the PM and Mapquest link goes, why would I want that? I don't quite follow. I thought so, have a nice day!
csmith9474 wrote: As far as the PM and Mapquest link goes, why would I want that? I don't quite follow.
As far as the PM and Mapquest link goes, why would I want that? I don't quite follow.
I thought so, have a nice day!
You thought what? I really don't understand why you want a PM and what you want to give me a Mapquest link for. It is really a simple question.
twhite wrote: Funny, I've got two of the old Walthers wood/metal passenger cars that I built back in the '60's, and they run just as well, if not better than the newer stuff. Is this the mutterings of an Old Fogie? Tom
Funny, I've got two of the old Walthers wood/metal passenger cars that I built back in the '60's, and they run just as well, if not better than the newer stuff.
Is this the mutterings of an Old Fogie?
I have two of those cars that someone lovingly built. Nice stuff!
Mark--
I agree with you, that C-30-1 caboose is kind of a 'little' thing from what I remember. Actually, and don't laugh, I think the old Silver Streak wood kit (of which I have one) is FAR closer to scale than the Walther's offering. Like you, I got the 'Platinum' version of the car, after banging my head against the wall with the two Rio Grande wooden cabeese 'kits' (which are actually better represented by RTR offerings from Roundhouse), I think I'm just going to stay away from Walthers, and enjoy their passenger cars, which actually take so much work to get running well (wheels, couplers, etc.,) that they turn the sobriquet 'RTR' into a kind of joke.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Hudson wrote: csmith9474 wrote: Not every passenger car with a 4-4-2 floor plan was the exact same prototype "wise guy". Just with any other passenger car. Are you trying to say that all the 4-4-2s that Walthers has produced are based on NYC floor plans? Why are you concerned with the size of my mouth? Talk about getting personal.Yeah..and Walther's is going to model the exact color of the rug, chrome trim, and art deco lighting too........Last time I check a PS 4-4-2 is a PS 4-4-2. BTW The decals that came with my 4-4-2's (NYC) are all "Imperial" series.............Jeeze...The same ones refurbished for the '48 20Th.Explain that ?Mouth? Personal? go ahead and PM...I'll send you a mapquest link.
csmith9474 wrote: Not every passenger car with a 4-4-2 floor plan was the exact same prototype "wise guy". Just with any other passenger car. Are you trying to say that all the 4-4-2s that Walthers has produced are based on NYC floor plans? Why are you concerned with the size of my mouth? Talk about getting personal.
Not every passenger car with a 4-4-2 floor plan was the exact same prototype "wise guy". Just with any other passenger car. Are you trying to say that all the 4-4-2s that Walthers has produced are based on NYC floor plans?
Why are you concerned with the size of my mouth? Talk about getting personal.
Yeah..and Walther's is going to model the exact color of the rug, chrome trim, and art deco lighting too........Last time I check a PS 4-4-2 is a PS 4-4-2. BTW The decals that came with my 4-4-2's (NYC) are all "Imperial" series.............Jeeze...The same ones refurbished for the '48 20Th.
Explain that ?
Mouth? Personal? go ahead and PM...I'll send you a mapquest link.
So you would say that a Santa Fe "Regal" PS 4-4-2 is the same as a NYC "Imperial" PS 4-4-2? I think you need to check again. And as far as Walthers and the decals that come with the cars, they included "Regal" decals with the 4-4-2 that they released as part of the "Super Chief" series, but the car Walthers released was not a "Regal" 4-4-2.
twhite wrote: Last Chance: After struggling with one Pullman and two Walthers Cabeese, you have just become my new hero along with Grampy's Trains, who told me to "Just leave them off, nobody will see the darned things, anyway!" Tom
Last Chance:
After struggling with one Pullman and two Walthers Cabeese, you have just become my new hero along with Grampy's Trains, who told me to "Just leave them off, nobody will see the darned things, anyway!"
Which is why I purchased a "platinum" version (all handrails factory-installed) of Walthers C-30-1 caboose. Too bad I later discovered that body height and platform size departed significantly from the prototype, so I passed the caboose on to someone who would be more appreciative.
Mark
Last Chance wrote: twhite wrote: Well, not to add fuel to the fire, but have you guys TRIED to put all those extra little teeny grab-irons on a Walther's "RTR" passenger cars? It takes the eye of an eagle, the patience of Job and about the same expenditure of #80 drills as the darned car COSTS! And after that, you only know you've put them on after you lift the car and feel them under your fingers. You sure as Heck can't SEE the darned things. Probably Walthers is offering these cars at a higher price with all the grabs installed to help re-imburse that Chinese company that is producing them to defray all of the costs of the workers that quit and run out of the plant screaming, "NO, NO, NEVER AGAIN!!" Sure makes sense to me. Tom Those teeny grab irons rust quietly in thier little baggies.I dont DO that kind of stuff. Anyone who comments on my heavyweights not having grab irons is going to get handed a set of tools, baggies of grab irons and "volunteered" to install such himself. That is another reason that Rapido has gained my loyalty. They have thier cars ready to go all out of the box and how!
twhite wrote: Well, not to add fuel to the fire, but have you guys TRIED to put all those extra little teeny grab-irons on a Walther's "RTR" passenger cars? It takes the eye of an eagle, the patience of Job and about the same expenditure of #80 drills as the darned car COSTS! And after that, you only know you've put them on after you lift the car and feel them under your fingers. You sure as Heck can't SEE the darned things. Probably Walthers is offering these cars at a higher price with all the grabs installed to help re-imburse that Chinese company that is producing them to defray all of the costs of the workers that quit and run out of the plant screaming, "NO, NO, NEVER AGAIN!!" Sure makes sense to me. Tom
Well, not to add fuel to the fire, but have you guys TRIED to put all those extra little teeny grab-irons on a Walther's "RTR" passenger cars? It takes the eye of an eagle, the patience of Job and about the same expenditure of #80 drills as the darned car COSTS! And after that, you only know you've put them on after you lift the car and feel them under your fingers. You sure as Heck can't SEE the darned things.
Probably Walthers is offering these cars at a higher price with all the grabs installed to help re-imburse that Chinese company that is producing them to defray all of the costs of the workers that quit and run out of the plant screaming, "NO, NO, NEVER AGAIN!!"
Sure makes sense to me.
markpierce wrote: Hudson wrote: markpierce wrote: Hudson, you continue to prove my point.MarkWhich is?You are so argumentative.Mark
Hudson wrote: markpierce wrote: Hudson, you continue to prove my point.MarkWhich is?
markpierce wrote: Hudson, you continue to prove my point.Mark
Hudson, you continue to prove my point.
Which is?
You are so argumentative.
Haha....You're a comedian.
Last Chance wrote:Those teeny grab irons rust quietly in thier little baggies.I dont DO that kind of stuff. Anyone who comments on my heavyweights not having grab irons is going to get handed a set of tools, baggies of grab irons and "volunteered" to install such himself. That is another reason that Rapido has gained my loyalty. They have thier cars ready to go all out of the box and how!
Those teeny grab irons rust quietly in thier little baggies.I dont DO that kind of stuff. Anyone who comments on my heavyweights not having grab irons is going to get handed a set of tools, baggies of grab irons and "volunteered" to install such himself. That is another reason that Rapido has gained my loyalty. They have thier cars ready to go all out of the box and how!
It is all relative. The twelve brass and plastic handgrabs I recently applied to a Branchline Pullman were a breeze (where I didn't break a single drill) compared to the dozens (where I broke three) applied to a Westerfield temporary (boxcar) caboose I built a couple of months ago.
twhite wrote:Well, not to add fuel to the fire, but have you guys TRIED to put all those extra little teeny grab-irons on a Walther's "RTR" passenger cars? It takes the eye of an eagle, the patience of Job and about the same expenditure of #80 drills as the darned car COSTS! And after that, you only know you've put them on after you lift the car and feel them under your fingers. You sure as Heck can't SEE the darned things. Probably Walthers is offering these cars at a higher price with all the grabs installed to help re-imburse that Chinese company that is producing them to defray all of the costs of the workers that quit and run out of the plant screaming, "NO, NO, NEVER AGAIN!!" Sure makes sense to me. Tom
markpierce wrote:[ Gee, Hudson, you're so argumentative. What I was saying is that for the price of a single brass model, I'd be more than willing to pay the same for a whole train of seven plastic models (which you believe to be overly priced) as long as they are equally prototypical and detailed, which plastic can do as well as brass. One must always compare apples to oranges when considering relative value, as in "should I pay down my credit card balance or take that ocean cruise with my tax refund."Mark
Gee, Hudson, you're so argumentative. What I was saying is that for the price of a single brass model, I'd be more than willing to pay the same for a whole train of seven plastic models (which you believe to be overly priced) as long as they are equally prototypical and detailed, which plastic can do as well as brass. One must always compare apples to oranges when considering relative value, as in "should I pay down my credit card balance or take that ocean cruise with my tax refund."
I'm argumentative because I don't agree with folks here? Because I want to know why something costs significantly more than it's predecessors? I find it amazing that so many people say that you should just blindly open your wallet and pay because "your lucky to get one".
I understand what your saying Mark. I'm happy you're willing to pay more.
The fact of the matter is no plastic has yet to be as well crafted and detailed as it's brass equivalent. I'm talking "modern" brass versus "modern" plastic. Your qualification has yet to be demonstrated in reality. I don't even know why people keep bringing up brass in this discussion, it has no relevance.
You don't seem to understand that I'm talking about value per dollar.
Modern Plastic is still no where near the level of detail offered in brass.
Relative value boils down to material/ craft value per dollar.
Whether you get more bang for your buck with plastic than brass is a whole other fish to fry.
Hudson wrote: Wow...Now I'm whining.What is with you people and taking things so personally. You want my address?So if the Walthers PS 4-4-2 tooling doesn't exist home come I own 6 of them wise guy? I wonder if your mouth is as big in person.
Wow...Now I'm whining.
What is with you people and taking things so personally. You want my address?
So if the Walthers PS 4-4-2 tooling doesn't exist home come I own 6 of them wise guy?
I wonder if your mouth is as big in person.
So if the Walthers PS 4-4-2 tooling doesn't exist how come I own 6 of them wise guy?
Hudson wrote: Who's complaining? Are you happy when you fill the tank too?It's apples and oranges comparing brass to plastic. It's as senseless to compare a Corvette to a Ferrari. Walther's cars as nice as they are still don't compare to the craftsmanship of state of the art brass models. Like Railway Classics or Challenger Imports for instance.I'm talking about the price of good plastic rolling stock compared to other good plastic rolling stock.
Who's complaining? Are you happy when you fill the tank too?
It's apples and oranges comparing brass to plastic. It's as senseless to compare a Corvette to a Ferrari. Walther's cars as nice as they are still don't compare to the craftsmanship of state of the art brass models. Like Railway Classics or Challenger Imports for instance.
I'm talking about the price of good plastic rolling stock compared to other good plastic rolling stock.
Hudson wrote: Charlie wrote: The only existing tooling used is for the 4-4-2 sleeper. All the rest rely on new tooling. CharlieNah.......Tooling already exists for 4-4-2, and 10-6 sleepers, RPO exists as well..........Half the train.......The only other tooling required is for the observation car, lounge car, kitchen/dorm and dining car.........They're making the 22-roomette, but those were not originally part of the '48 consist. They should make the 12-Roomette as per the original.........Ok..That's tooling for 5 cars lets say................Typical Joe will run a 10 - 12 car consist.So that's new paint and tooling for half the train give or take........
Charlie wrote: The only existing tooling used is for the 4-4-2 sleeper. All the rest rely on new tooling. Charlie
Charlie
Nah.......Tooling already exists for 4-4-2, and 10-6 sleepers, RPO exists as well..........Half the train.......
The only other tooling required is for the observation car, lounge car, kitchen/dorm and dining car.........They're making the 22-roomette, but those were not originally part of the '48 consist. They should make the 12-Roomette as per the original.........
Ok..That's tooling for 5 cars lets say................
Typical Joe will run a 10 - 12 car consist.
So that's new paint and tooling for half the train give or take........
Nah.........Charlie is right, and you are dead wrong. It looks as if the 4-4-2 may even be new tooling. Walthers hasn't released a RPO that is anything close to the prototype for this train. Get your facts straight before you continue the whining.
MisterBeasley wrote:By the shore of Gitche GumeeBy the shining big sea waterIn the cab of Restless Diesel(Borrowed from the song of Clapton)Hiawatha sat and waitedAll the air was full of freshnessThe semaphores were horizontalAll the lamps were red with fireWhilst a surly freight departedLoaded with the steel rectanglesBrought across the Great PacificStacked upon the waiting flatcarsHauled across the mighty nationTo the wigwam of Bill WalthersHiawatha sat and waitedTill the distant FRED departedAnd the signals gave permissionFor his throttle to be opened
By the shore of Gitche Gumee
By the shining big sea water
In the cab of Restless Diesel
(Borrowed from the song of Clapton)
Hiawatha sat and waited
All the air was full of freshness
The semaphores were horizontal
All the lamps were red with fire
Whilst a surly freight departed
Loaded with the steel rectangles
Brought across the Great Pacific
Stacked upon the waiting flatcars
Hauled across the mighty nation
To the wigwam of Bill Walthers
Till the distant FRED departed
And the signals gave permission
For his throttle to be opened
ROTFL!!
Jim in Cape Girardeau
loathar wrote:Look at Dallas Model Works for Walthers structures. He's got the best prices on them I've seen.
Look at Dallas Model Works for Walthers structures. He's got the best prices on them I've seen.
Yup. MB Klein is pretty good too.........
Packers1 wrote: Hudson wrote: I'm curious. I know the price of oil has gone up, but per car "The 20th Century Limited" they plan to release is on average $20.00 more. Hiawatha cars retailed at $44.95. 20th Century cars will retail at at least $64.00. That's a tremendous increase in price over a similiar equivalent product.Do you feel they're just taking advantage of a captive customer base?I think it stinks of price gouging.Your thoughts? This is why I don't buy from Walthers. the only business they get from me is their catalog. however, I'm looking at a few of their structures. I find that the best place to buy things is on the net at hobby shop's websites (like M. B. Klein). So that's why I'll be ordering limited stuff from that site.
Hudson wrote: I'm curious. I know the price of oil has gone up, but per car "The 20th Century Limited" they plan to release is on average $20.00 more. Hiawatha cars retailed at $44.95. 20th Century cars will retail at at least $64.00. That's a tremendous increase in price over a similiar equivalent product.Do you feel they're just taking advantage of a captive customer base?I think it stinks of price gouging.Your thoughts?
I'm curious. I know the price of oil has gone up, but per car "The 20th Century Limited" they plan to release is on average $20.00 more. Hiawatha cars retailed at $44.95. 20th Century cars will retail at at least $64.00. That's a tremendous increase in price over a similiar equivalent product.
Do you feel they're just taking advantage of a captive customer base?
I think it stinks of price gouging.
Your thoughts?
This is why I don't buy from Walthers. the only business they get from me is their catalog. however, I'm looking at a few of their structures. I find that the best place to buy things is on the net at hobby shop's websites (like M. B. Klein). So that's why I'll be ordering limited stuff from that site.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
Paul3 wrote: Please forgive me if I don't feel that much sympathy for NYC fans.If I want to model the New Haven's crack 1948 passenger train (the Merchants Limited in stainless steel), I have a 4 options:1). Pay $400 per car for the recent run in RTR brass (only $4000 for a ten car set!)2). Pay $100-$150 per car for a 30 year old run of undec. brass from Soho, then paint them myself. No interiors, no details, and lousy trucks.3). Pay $50 per car for brass passenger car sides w/ plastic core kit, and spend several hours building them, adding trucks, interiors, details, etc., then paint them.4). Scratchbuild or kitbash them from ECW parts.Gee, I sure wish someone would make my railroad's crack passenger train for only $65 per car...cars that were painted accurately, had a full interiors, great running trucks, great details, and they even had lighting kits available for them.Sigh.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Please forgive me if I don't feel that much sympathy for NYC fans.
If I want to model the New Haven's crack 1948 passenger train (the Merchants Limited in stainless steel), I have a 4 options:
1). Pay $400 per car for the recent run in RTR brass (only $4000 for a ten car set!)2). Pay $100-$150 per car for a 30 year old run of undec. brass from Soho, then paint them myself. No interiors, no details, and lousy trucks.3). Pay $50 per car for brass passenger car sides w/ plastic core kit, and spend several hours building them, adding trucks, interiors, details, etc., then paint them.4). Scratchbuild or kitbash them from ECW parts.
Gee, I sure wish someone would make my railroad's crack passenger train for only $65 per car...cars that were painted accurately, had a full interiors, great running trucks, great details, and they even had lighting kits available for them.
Sigh.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul, have you looked at River Point Station's website? They plan on releasing NH's PSCM cars individually. The cars are made of ABS plastic, the same as BLI's CZ Zephyr. You'all need to quit gripping. You've got it made in regards to passengers cars. Since I model business trains, my only option is to buy brass. I currently have reserved two cars from The Coach Yard at 495.00 each or about 1,000.00 for the two. 65.00 per NYC car is a bargin. The only existing tooling used is for the 4-4-2 sleeper. All the rest of the cars rely on new tooling.
link to River Point Station for Paul
http://www.riverpointstation.com/
MP 53 on the BNSF Topeka Sub
I don't have a dog in this fight, and I'm not a big fan of Walther's pricing on many things, most notably 40 year old Heljan kits that are marketed as Cornerstone that run 40 and 50 bucks... How long ago was THAT tooling paid for??.
However, it seems that the creation of a highly customized model of a very specific prototype is going to be very expensive to tool, and have a very limited base of buyers. Outside of NYC modelers and passenger train enthusiasts, this is not going to showing up on a lot of layouts. They've set the price based on anticipated sales, cost recovery, and probably a modest profit margin. Walthers isn't a charity, and they don't set their prices by asking you what you want to pay.
The cost of raw materials barely scratches the surface. Not only has plastic shot through the roof, but how about the transportation to get it here, then on to your local hobby shop? And how about that "underbody detail." Why not complain about that? I mean, the only time you'll be able to enjoy that detail is when your train has derailed badly, or if you never run it. To me that's a colossal waste.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
loathar wrote: Hudson wrote: I hope it becomes worth it to buy from the USA.............I try to do that as much as I can.I say let China and the other cheap labor countries raise prices through the roof! Let's bring those jobs back home to the US! Prices on cheap Chinese crap at Wal Mart is up 20-30% over last year alone. I've read that a price increase of 35-40% would make it more worth while to make the products here.I just got an E-mail from Hobbies USA. They said they will be discounting these cars more than 25%. I bet when these things come in stock, the prices will be a lot lower than $65.
Hudson wrote: I hope it becomes worth it to buy from the USA.............I try to do that as much as I can.
I hope it becomes worth it to buy from the USA.............I try to do that as much as I can.
I say let China and the other cheap labor countries raise prices through the roof! Let's bring those jobs back home to the US! Prices on cheap Chinese crap at Wal Mart is up 20-30% over last year alone. I've read that a price increase of 35-40% would make it more worth while to make the products here.
I just got an E-mail from Hobbies USA. They said they will be discounting these cars more than 25%. I bet when these things come in stock, the prices will be a lot lower than $65.
I wholeheartedly agree...........The sad thing is that quite a few American consumers seem happy to be screwed all the way to the bank.