This is not a post about "which is better, HO or N".
I just wanted to get that out of the way so the thread doesn't turn into that.
I've got a dillemma. I have space of approximately 126" x 106" (10'6" x 8'10") in my new house. This has been allocated to me by the Person In Charge so I'm all good there.
Now, I've previously done HO. I love the scale it balances detail with action. Standard 4x8 stuff previously and a coupel tabletop designs. With the new space I originally intended to do an around-the-walls shelf layout in N scale. I have even gone so far as to lay out the basic benchwork (L girder along the walls). The track plan has been in flux but that's the wonderful thing about L Girder, you can "make it fit".
Here's my problem now. I was downstairs tinkering with a little SW8 N scale loco trying to get the shell off to see how much work it would be to get a decoder installed. I've done side-by-side comparisons with N vs HO before and found that the "look" of N scale worked for me. I was excited because it would allow me to pack a lot more into the limited space I have.
After finally getting the shell off I realized - holy COW are the parts small! I've got fairly nimble fingers and I'm 37 with good eyesight but boy was I having trouble keeping things together.
So I started to second guess myself. Going with N basically means I'll be sacrificing sound (mostly), and will be living with a visor on my head to be able to see everything. On the flip side I'll be able to do "more" of what I want to model (eastern pennsylvania modern shortline with coal).
So here's basically what I'm asking the masses - and yes, I know the final decision will be mine but I'm hoping to get alternate viewpoints - is the space I have enough for a (scaled down - no pun intended) layout that would include at the very least a small interchange/yard and some decent industry in HO? Obviously I'd have to sacrifice any major coal work but I could probably squeeze a small truck dump in.
The other industry I will be modeling is a brewery (Yuengling to be exact!).
My main concern is being able to maintain some operational interest while at the same time providing me opportunities to improve my modeling. And do all that in such a way as to minimize frustrations.
Thoughts? Opinions? More detail required?
-Greg
HO_Greg wrote:This is not a post about "which is better, HO or N".... is the space I have enough for a (scaled down - no pun intended) layout that would include at the very least a small interchange/yard and some decent industry in HO? Obviously I'd have to sacrifice any major coal work but I could probably squeeze a small truck dump in...Thoughts? Opinions? More detail required?-Greg
... is the space I have enough for a (scaled down - no pun intended) layout that would include at the very least a small interchange/yard and some decent industry in HO? Obviously I'd have to sacrifice any major coal work but I could probably squeeze a small truck dump in...
Well in the opinion of this one member of the masses, Yes.
You can have about 25 feet of around the walls length three feet deep, and many other permutations. Should be plenty of room. You can also model a part of the coal operation along a wall or in a corner and simulate the rest with backdrop, mirrors and imagination.
Good choice of brewery BTW.
Oh, about eyesight, mine was always 20/14 and 20/12. It still is as long as what I am looking at is at least three feet away. When I hit my mid fourties my near focusing ability began to go away. I suspect that this happens to a lot of us. Reading glasses do help but are a pain. You are right to be considering eyesight constraints early on.
Karl
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
I like the feel, the heft, and the details I can actually appreciate, just now 56 years of age, of my HO stuff. N scale, for me, is unthinkable.
Apart from not being able to see as my aging pupils lose their ability to dilate, and because of the resultant loss of resolution, I actually need much more light to see these years, and for the same reason...the aperture doesn't let the same amount of light get to the fovea as it did when I was 30. Let's not get into the dexterity issues...not being able to see stuff is bad enough.
Still, I think you have lots of room if you take your time, be creative, be disciplined, and make educated and sensible, practical, compromises. They don't have to be in quality, though, and that is what can spoil a layout faster'n anything. You'll be able to get more into an N scale layout, but if you already find yourself even beginning to be daunted by the limitations imposed on you physically by the scale....(reader to draw his/her own conclusion).
Greg,
I was in the same spot about 5 years ago when I was 28. When the "train bug bit me" I was going back and forth between my old N-scale set and my old HO stuff from when I was a kid. I had always enjoyed HO but my fire was relit on N as we lived in a small 2 bedroom apartment and i got a lot of bang for my buck. When we moved into a new apartment it had an attached garage but I was still so torn. I even rememberd getting ready to go into the hobby store with my wife to buy my first box of track, (25 peices) and I was going back and forth with her in the parkign lot......
"What ever I buy today honey, no going back." I picked HO.
N-scale has an appeal all to itself and I still find myself looking rolling stock and track but HO won out for me and I dont regret it.
To each his own so here was my thinking.
HO provided sound. Easier to handle. More fun to paint and weather. By far more detailing you can do with rolling stock and engines. If you have any thoughts about getting into operations with switching, HO is WAY easier to work with. (Ever pick a N-scale coupler? I feel I have better chances catching a fly with chopsticks.) Same applies to structures. HO scale is much easier to build and kitbash and can get into deeper with details.
Now that my current layout is close to "finished", I have found that I am now going back and detailing scenes, tuning and tweaking the cars, building better stuctures and getting into scratchbuilding/kitbashing more.
While N-scale would have given me the huge long trains and sweeping scenes that I would love, (still think about) I feel that HO scales gives me more to do and I glad I went HO.
Hope that helps a little.
Best Regards, Big John
Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway
As someone who's modeled in both HO and N Scales I can tell you this. Do the one that you're most comfortable with.
I have a space that's 8 feet by 10 feet. That would make for a magnificient N Scale layout. However, I have other considerations. I'm very near 50, my eyesight isn't what you would call great and due to nerve damage from diabetes and other health related matters I'm not very good with small details. In the end I chose HO. This limits me to tight curves and smaller equipment but since I'm not overly enthused about autoracks and such I could make it work for me. The scale is big enough that I can work on locos and cars comfortably and have a layout that looks reasonable. My other choice would have been O Scale but the thought of those insanely tight curves was so repulsive that I pushed it out of the picture altogether. I've managed to get a lot of track, scenery and action into the space available to me and I'm happy with it.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Good thoughts all. I appreciate your individual insight. I'm just glad that I'm having this moment BEFORE I started laying track than after!
canazar wrote:HO provided sound. Easier to handle. More fun to paint and weather. By far more detailing you can do with rolling stock and engines. If you have any thoughts about getting into operations with switching, HO is WAY easier to work with. (Ever pick a N-scale coupler? I feel I have better chances catching a fly with chopsticks.) Same applies to structures. HO scale is much easier to build and kitbash and can get into deeper with details.
It was actually working with an N scale coupler after I finally got the shell off the SW8 that made me go "holy crap!" I dropped a piece and spent the next 3 minutes on my hands and knees looking for it. My fingers are pretty nimble but not that nimble. It took me about 5 minutes total to get the darn thing put back together again.
I do already have some rolling stock for N (and HO mind you) for my favorite and planned prototype (Reading & Northern). Going with N I can get those nice coal drags - HO I can get a really nice brewery!
If the Person In Charge just let me have the back room in the basement rather than the nook up front this wouldn't be an issue! :)
Thanks,
Greg
How's this for an idea?
Spend the money and get a couple of the new ATLAS Trainman sets,one in N and one in HO.Set them up and play weith them for a couple weeks.Get some real hands on for your self,make your choice than sell the other one for close to what you have invested in it and spend that money on your scale of choice.
Either way you are starting out with quality stuff that is DCC ready if that is what you want.
HO_Greg wrote: Here's my problem now. I was downstairs tinkering with a little SW8 N scale loco trying to get the shell off to see how much work it would be to get a decoder installed. I've done side-by-side comparisons with N vs HO before and found that the "look" of N scale worked for me. I was excited because it would allow me to pack a lot more into the limited space I have.After finally getting the shell off I realized - holy COW are the parts small! I've got fairly nimble fingers and I'm 37 with good eyesight but boy was I having trouble keeping things together.So I started to second guess myself. Going with N basically means I'll be sacrificing sound (mostly), and will be living with a visor on my head to be able to see everything. On the flip side I'll be able to do "more" of what I want to model (eastern pennsylvania modern shortline with coal).So here's basically what I'm asking the masses - and yes, I know the final decision will be mine but I'm hoping to get alternate viewpoints - is the space I have enough for a (scaled down - no pun intended) layout that would include at the very least a small interchange/yard and some decent industry in HO? Obviously I'd have to sacrifice any major coal work but I could probably squeeze a small truck dump in.The other industry I will be modeling is a brewery (Yuengling to be exact!).My main concern is being able to maintain some operational interest while at the same time providing me opportunities to improve my modeling. And do all that in such a way as to minimize frustrations.Thoughts? Opinions? More detail required?-Greg
Let me preface my comments by saying that I am a confirmed N-Scaler so mu comments will definitely reflect my bias.
Sure N-Scale is small, but don't let that deter you. You can install small decoders in just about anything. If you don't want to do it yourself, your LHS can probably do it for you or at least recommend someone who can. Besides you only do it once so you aren't going to be spending the next 20 years of your life installing these decoders unless you've got an awful lot of N-Scale locomotives.
As for sound, there are ways of getting around the size limitation. But while sound isn't a viable option for all N-Scale locomotives right now, that isn't going to be the case for long. Electronic miniaturization has come along way since radios were the size of piece of furniture. And it isn't stopping. MRC decoders now exist that can be put into N-Scale equipment but they'll continue to improve and get smaller and cheaper at the same time. Besides, I am just getting into DCC myself and I suspect you will be learning more about it as you proceed.
Your space can be used for nice small layout in HO. But you won't get to do much. You can do almost 4 times as much in the same space in N-Scale. For me that was what got me into N-scale to begin with.
I know you've gotten alot of advice about getting older and dealing with issues of sight and desterity. But remember, age is both a physical and mental fact. Not everyone has perfect vision nor a perfect athlete or dancer. Age is purely a matter of of mind.
I am almost 60. I have always worn glasses. I also had stroke in almost 4 years ago so I am not as nimble as I once was. Still, I can do 95% of what I did and I can still deal with my N-Scale equipment even though it hasn't been the same as it once was. I use railing tools that help me put my equipment of the track whereas I was once able to do it without one. The tools aren't expensive. I could probably convert my N-Scale locomotives to DCC my self, but I am content to have someone else do it for me.
In effect what I am telling you don't let the size deter you. Don't let what might happen as you grow older deter you either. Just think of it as an opportunity to get a good sized layout of your own creation into that existing space. But, the one thing you need to remember here is that it's your decision and despite what you see and read, you are going to have to live with what you decide and the rest of us won't.
Irv
Got my first pair of glasses at 45.
Dr told me I had a very common desease ---- OLD AGE
majortom
Small parts are an issue in every scale, there are just more of them in N!
I've only ever modelled in HO, but if I had to start over with no old equipment to use, I'd go for N scale mainly due to the better balance of scenery to trains that you can achieve in a moderate space (mine is 10' X16').
Edit: I'm 42 and have worn glasses since the age of 12 (nearsighted).
Consider using multiple levels for more mainline run, even though this usually means having a big helix eat up a lot of room. A long grade to the second level may be easier to do in N scale, I'm not sure.
Scale choice is a very personal thing, you need to factor in every druthers you have to make the right choice, from your posts it sounds like you're already well on your way to making an informed decision.
Best of luck, and let us know what you decide!
I've done both. My N-scale experience was a long time ago, and from what I've seen the quality and look of everything in N-scale has improved. The N-scale diesels seem to be very good, but I don't hear much from N-scale steam guys. That makes me think that N-scale steam is either too expensive, or too troublesome, or both. If that's the scale you like and you like diesels, go for it. I must admit that when I go to a train show and I see an N-scale layout with code 55 track and there is a train consisting of 5 big diesels pulling 100 or more coal hoppers, that's pretty dramatic! I can definately see the attraction to N-scale.
If you like steam, I urge you to go HO or HO narrow gauge. Models of steam engines, are similar to their prototypes in that they require occasional tinkering. In N scale, that may be more frustration that you can tolerate - it was for me.
An HOn3 layout would sure fit nicely in the space you describe. Some of the nice aspects of narrow gauge are that the prototypes typically had sharper curves than standard gauge, as well as shorter cars and fewer locomotives. Also, my experience is that my wife (now ex, but that has nothing to do with trains), always liked the cuteness of the little shays, heislers, and porters. That support always made the hobby more enjoyable.
Myself, I model in HO standard gauge, but I treat it as of it were narrow gauge. I went this route because it looked like the cost of some narrow gauge products was a little steep, and the variety of track pieces was a little limited (I was not wanting to hand lay like I did in N-scale). So mine is a standard gauge short line, and I really enjoy it.
You are facing a happy choice - no matter what, you can't go wrong.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
HO_Greg wrote: ...After finally getting the shell off I realized - holy COW are the parts small! I've got fairly nimble fingers and I'm 37 with good eyesight but boy was I having trouble keeping things together.
...After finally getting the shell off I realized - holy COW are the parts small! I've got fairly nimble fingers and I'm 37 with good eyesight but boy was I having trouble keeping things together.
Now you know why I gave up HOn30 and began to model in large scale, G is for GEEE thats Big!!!
Have fun with your trains
I would seriously look at what kind of railroading you want to do, and balance that with the size space you have available. If you are content running a train in circles, and happy with a box in one corner called the brewery, and a box in the other corner called the coal mine, then HO might be your choice.
If you want to model the Reading from Rutherford to Pottsville, with a couple of passing sidings, a yard and a few plausible industries, then you probably want to consider N scale a little more carefully.
If you are concerned that your hopper cars need to have the correct brake wheels, legible reporting marks, and (dare I say it) the right number of rivets, then a larger scale might be for you.
If you are concerned that your industrial buildings should be larger than the boxcars serving them, then N might be your choice.
I agree that if you are hooked on a particular type of steam locomotive, you're going to have a long wait in N scale. But if first, second, or third generation diesels float your boat, you really can't do much better than N scale these day. Make sure you don't mind spending a couple of extra bucks for Atlas or Kato engines, there's a wide variety for just about any modeling era, and you'll be a happy camper.
As for DCC in that little switcher? Been there done that. That shell/frame design is one of the world's worst, but there are ways to improve it. I've got two more to do for people, and when I'm firing on all cylinders, I can even do this...
Yup, I can make the cab headlight work! Nothing's impossible.
N scale mechanisms do need a little bit of love, but that mostly involves keeping the trucks clean for good electrical contact. In most instances, this can be achieved without removing the shell.
So go with what moves you, I'd rather enjoy running the kind of layout I like and deal with a little frustration with the equipment, than have trouble free equipment and a layout that doesn't meet my definition of fun to run.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
I think part of what I am getting caught up in is the desire to "do it all myself". What I mean is that I've got in my head that I can do everything from the soldering, track planning, painting, etc, etc, etc with no help from anyone else.
I got frustrated trying to get the darn SW8 open and then once I did I got frustrated at seeing how little space there is in there to work with.
So I went and started mucking around with a SD45 in HO scale I have and darned if I couldn't even get that shell open! So it's not just the scale - it's me. Although I will admit to being a little concerned about the size of the parts in N scale and trying to build structures in N scale - I'd be lying if that weren't the case.
I think all things considered with the space I have available I really MUST got N scale to be able to "do what I want to do". I want to be able to model (in my limited space) some of the terrain in central Pennsylvania. I want to be able to model the brewery and I really want to be able to model some decent coal action.
What do I "lose" with N scale over HO? Here's how I see it:
1. Less overall detail2. No sound (for now)3. Smaller parts to manipulate (locos, rolling stock and structures)
All things considered that's not so bad. I can still weather (something I'm interested in doing) the rolling stock and locos. I can actually fit a yard in the space I have. I can more easily go with a double-deck (lower hidden staging) with N scale since I can work with smaller radii and less vertical clearance.
So basically I need to trade off decoder installations (don't think I won't be following up with you Lee about that) and maybe some more focused help on getting started in building structures and such in N but other than that I feel confident that I will be able to do more of what I want to do than in HO. Now if I had another 100sq ft to work with I'd likely go HO since I like the heft and feel of it, but I don't. I still like how N scale looks (maybe not quite as much as HO but I still like it) and I can spend my energy focusing on some other things.
About the only remaining question for me is for some N scalers to step up and say what their operations are like? I've heard mixed emotions about working with N scale in an operating environment (small couplers, hard to connect/disconnect, etc) so just curious for some feedback.
Thanks again,
One thing about N, what you lose in 'detail' can be made up for in 'scale' as in the scale of your layout can be grander, in N you can model skyscapers and entire sections of cities, towns or industries, and you can run much longer trains, so there are some advantages to going smaller.
as for uncoupling, use Kadees and their uncoupling tool, and place their magnet stratigicly around the layout, takes a little more planning in operation where your going to cut cars, but its not much diffeent that HO, and the uncoupling tool makes up for where no magnets occur.
EDIT
UH OH! I just checked Kadees website and I didnt see any N gauge couplers, did they drop them? If so when did this happens? what are the alternates now?
I use to use them on all my N stuff I converted to HOn30, sheesh!
D'oh nevermind, took my decrepid mind a while to realize I was using MicroTrains N couplers Duuh
Greg,I went N Scale for three reasons.1) I found space for a small layout-HO lost due to the small space..2)HO is becoming to dang fragile to handle or transport.I keep a supply of spaghetti thin handrails to replace those that breaks during routine servicing.I have had tiny detail parts to break off-good riddance since I had to look close to see 'em..3)I find it easier to work on N Scale.I am currently building 3 N Scale structures and its easier for me.
Now before anybody mouths off I am very careful in handling my locomotives and I handle them when only necessary.
Now then..The space you have you can go either way and still have a winning hand.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
How much of a 'dedicated' train room is this?
IF it is very much a train room, then you need to not forget about penninsulas.