Gazoo wrote: marknewton wrote: wjstix wrote:I'm not sure "being the first" has to do with it exactly. The point being made was that it's harder to model a real railroad in exact detail than it is to make something up. In modelling a real railroad, you have a target you have to hit with your arrow. When you're freelancing, you can shoot your arrow into the wall and then draw a target around it.Stix, I wish I'd said that! That summarises my view perfectly.The people with this view seem to have closed their minds and locked themselves inside a box they can't seem to escape.
marknewton wrote: wjstix wrote:I'm not sure "being the first" has to do with it exactly. The point being made was that it's harder to model a real railroad in exact detail than it is to make something up. In modelling a real railroad, you have a target you have to hit with your arrow. When you're freelancing, you can shoot your arrow into the wall and then draw a target around it.Stix, I wish I'd said that! That summarises my view perfectly.
wjstix wrote:I'm not sure "being the first" has to do with it exactly. The point being made was that it's harder to model a real railroad in exact detail than it is to make something up. In modelling a real railroad, you have a target you have to hit with your arrow. When you're freelancing, you can shoot your arrow into the wall and then draw a target around it.
The people with this view seem to have closed their minds and locked themselves inside a box they can't seem to escape.
... what you just don't seem to be able to release your mind to is that you also can freelance in such a way that you're shooting a target at an arrow. Or shooting your arrow at a target that's under the couch. Or instead of an arrow you're shooting a banana from your bow...None of those are easier they're harder.
marknewton wrote: jackn2mpu wrote:Mark:Your point ios well taken, especially seeing as how it's made from the evidence provided. As stated before in this thread, I'm no fan of Sellios's styleon the FS&M, but what might make the FS&M evidence look better before a jury is if the same picture was taken in the same way the first one was, and not helicopter-style (or Jolly Green Giant style) as it is. Perhaps, buts it's not just the position of the camera that makes this scene look toy-like. The uniform weathering, anachronistic signage and dubious architecture all make the scene look implausible and unrealistic to me.Cheers,Mark.
jackn2mpu wrote:Mark:Your point ios well taken, especially seeing as how it's made from the evidence provided. As stated before in this thread, I'm no fan of Sellios's styleon the FS&M, but what might make the FS&M evidence look better before a jury is if the same picture was taken in the same way the first one was, and not helicopter-style (or Jolly Green Giant style) as it is.
Mark:
You've said what I had in mind but couldn't find the proper words for. I don't think the northeastern US would have looked at all like this in the depression; as someone else said, it's like Sweethaven from Popeye. Construction in inland cities would have been brick for the most part
OT - do you think Geelong can win the Grand Final for 2 years in a row? Long time footy fan here in the USA. I just wish Carlton had made it in the top 8.
de N2MPU Jack
Proud NRA Life Member and supporter of the 2nd. Amendment
God, guns, and rock and roll!
Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CPRail/D&H in N
I was most surprised to see my name brought up in a discussion of Malcolm Furlow and George Sellios. As Wayne and Garth would say, "I'm not worthy". I respect the fact that my layout is not done in the style or taste of everyone who sees it. I'm sure no such layout ever existed. However, given some of the criticisms that have been raised, I thought I would share (not defend) some of the philosophies and influences for my modeling style.
First of all, I would like to state for the record that I am a huge fan of both Malcolm and George. Both have left an indelible stamp on our hobby. I think that Mr. Sellios is one of the finest model builders of all time. All of his individual structures are of museum and contest quality. When hundreds of these structures are brought together, however, they create an overwhelming and awesome sensory experience. Some would argue that it is too overly detailed to be realistic...even for a huge metropolitan city. Regardless of opinion, I am nonetheless in awe of what he has accomplished.
I think comparing my MA&G to the F&SM is a very apples and oranges proposition. This is mainly due to the subject matter itself. My main goal, at least with the Mississippi level which was mentioned, was to convey the atmosphere and mood of laid-back, small town life in the 50's. Think of Mayberry from the Andy Griffith show or the courthouse square from "Back to the Future". Now I realize that these were sanitized interpretations of such places. But you also have to understand the mindset of southerners. Most people took pride in the way their property and town looked. There was a lot of community spirit, not to mention old money, in many of those towns. The local Ladies Auxiliary would award "Yard of the Month" to very competitive homeowners who would strive to have the most beautiful Azaleas in town. Both of my grandmothers held this honor on several occasions. Things were spit and polished for events like Founder's Day or community Easter egg hunts. People got together for Dinner on the Grounds at church. Such observations are based on personal memories I have from the 60's and 70's. The movie Steel Magnolias (which I realize has probably not been seen by most men) has the sort of small town southern charm I was after. Compared to a city like Franklin or South Manchester, my towns of Wharton or Edna would indeed seem quite dead or sterile. I do understand that some of you see my modeling in that light regardless. I respect your opinion.
The one critisism I would definitely agree with has to do with the racial mix of the residents on my layout. At least a third of the population should be of African-American ancestry. My fear is that in our very politically correct society, a visitor to my website could take offense in the way minorities were depicted. I think this is reflected in the lack of ethnic figure sets by Preiser, Merten or Woodland Scenics (although admittedly the first two are European companies). To have whites-only facilities and businesses would indeed be prototypical for the era, but very offensive to most people. This was not my intention. I remember when Allen Keller's Bluff City Southern was published in MR back in the 90's, someone wrote into the RPO column and admonished Allen for depicting the confederate flag in front of his courthouse. He was basically accused of being a racist. This is a perfect example of realism being considered offensive. To be honest, the Mississippi flag, which bears the confederate symbol, flies in front of the courthouse in my town of Wharton. I have deliberately cropped it from any photographs on my layout in an attempt to be sensitive to the nearly 50,000 people who have visited my website.
Lastly, I would say that my website has always been a vehicle for me to share, not promote, the layout with others. Even though I live in a highly populated area, there are very few people that are interested in our hobby. I hoped that having the layout filmed for local television and featured on the front page of the newspaper would impact this, but in fact I have very few visitors. For this reason I turned to the web as a means for opening the layout to others. While I never consider my work to be anywhere near the caliber of Furlow or Sellios, it has brought me more personal fulfillment than I can express. I have pleased myself with the results so far, which is really all I could hope for. For those who were unimpressed with my work, I still appreciate you taking the time to stop by and take a look anyway.
Cliff Powers
www.magnoliaroute.com
Cliff,
Thanks for stopping by and sharing with us your thoughts/rationale about your layout. It's always nice to hear it directly from the creator, themselves, rather than just from us attempting to speculate what we think or interpret what another's work is "trying to say". Keep up the good work.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
NEMMRRC wrote:Folks,I am at the National Narrow Gauge Convention in Portland, OR this week and Benchmark Publications has released a 25th anniversary release of The San Juan Central by model railroading's long-lost beloved son, Malcolm Furlow...
maandg wrote: I was most surprised to see my name brought up in a discussion of Malcolm Furlow and George Sellios. As Wayne and Garth would say, "I'm not worthy". I respect the fact that my layout is not done in the style or taste of everyone who sees it. I'm sure no such layout ever existed. However, given some of the criticisms that have been raised, I thought I would share (not defend) some of the philosophies and influences for my modeling style.First of all, I would like to state for the record that I am a huge fan of both Malcolm and George. Both have left an indelible stamp on our hobby. I think that Mr. Sellios is one of the finest model builders of all time. All of his individual structures are of museum and contest quality. When hundreds of these structures are brought together, however, they create an overwhelming and awesome sensory experience. Some would argue that it is too overly detailed to be realistic...even for a huge metropolitan city. Regardless of opinion, I am nonetheless in awe of what he has accomplished.I think comparing my MA&G to the F&SM is a very apples and oranges proposition. This is mainly due to the subject matter itself. My main goal, at least with the Mississippi level which was mentioned, was to convey the atmosphere and mood of laid-back, small town life in the 50's. Think of Mayberry from the Andy Griffith show or the courthouse square from "Back to the Future". Now I realize that these were sanitized interpretations of such places. But you also have to understand the mindset of southerners. Most people took pride in the way their property and town looked. There was a lot of community spirit, not to mention old money, in many of those towns. The local Ladies Auxiliary would award "Yard of the Month" to very competitive homeowners who would strive to have the most beautiful Azaleas in town. Both of my grandmothers held this honor on several occasions. Things were spit and polished for events like Founder's Day or community Easter egg hunts. People got together for Dinner on the Grounds at church. Such observations are based on personal memories I have from the 60's and 70's. The movie Steel Magnolias (which I realize has probably not been seen by most men) has the sort of small town southern charm I was after. Compared to a city like Franklin or South Manchester, my towns of Wharton or Edna would indeed seem quite dead or sterile. I do understand that some of you see my modeling in that light regardless. I respect your opinion.The one critisism I would definitely agree with has to do with the racial mix of the residents on my layout. At least a third of the population should be of African-American ancestry. My fear is that in our very politically correct society, a visitor to my website could take offense in the way minorities were depicted. I think this is reflected in the lack of ethnic figure sets by Preiser, Merten or Woodland Scenics (although admittedly the first two are European companies). To have whites-only facilities and businesses would indeed be prototypical for the era, but very offensive to most people. This was not my intention. I remember when Allen Keller's Bluff City Southern was published in MR back in the 90's, someone wrote into the RPO column and admonished Allen for depicting the confederate flag in front of his courthouse. He was basically accused of being a racist. This is a perfect example of realism being considered offensive. To be honest, the Mississippi flag, which bears the confederate symbol, flies in front of the courthouse in my town of Wharton. I have deliberately cropped it from any photographs on my layout in an attempt to be sensitive to the nearly 50,000 people who have visited my website. Lastly, I would say that my website has always been a vehicle for me to share, not promote, the layout with others. Even though I live in a highly populated area, there are very few people that are interested in our hobby. I hoped that having the layout filmed for local television and featured on the front page of the newspaper would impact this, but in fact I have very few visitors. For this reason I turned to the web as a means for opening the layout to others. While I never consider my work to be anywhere near the caliber of Furlow or Sellios, it has brought me more personal fulfillment than I can express. I have pleased myself with the results so far, which is really all I could hope for. For those who were unimpressed with my work, I still appreciate you taking the time to stop by and take a look anyway.
Cliff, it's great to hear from someone of your calibre on these forums, and as one of the folks who posted I'd just like to say perhaps two obvious things - you're a master modeler and your layout is beautifully done. It's a little bit silly sometimes for those of use who have about an iota of the skill of someone like you to offer a criticism, but I respect and admire the fact that you are open to us all.
I understand what you are talking about with "political correctness", and it's always great to hear the rationale of what went into MR decisions and why. You're caught in a dilemna when you model the south in th 50's, as a Southerner I know that all too well. On the one hand, you depict reality, and the reality is that, yes, a very sizable portion of the community was both black and overwhelmingly in a oppressed and segregated state, and even a prototypical model railroad scene can offend - stirring up unpleasant memories and resentments.
On the other hand, a sanitized view and scene of the South in the 50's can provokes a "hey, wait a minute..." reaction (like mine ) , and can strike some as a denial, apologist or revisionism. For some, that can equally offend, and for some, stir up resentments.
So you are indeed caught in a quandry when modeling the South in the 50s, especially the delta, flatland or tidewater south. I get that, and your explanation made me think more about that, and I appreciate the delicate reasoning. And your explanation does clarify the thinking behind yor layout decision and the honesty and sincerity that went into it. You're obviously good people.
Cliff Powers, Thanks for sharing that with us. I am sure it will give much insight to some who for what ever reason chose to critise.
You Sir along with Joe F. are my heros and consider you my favorite modelers.
Thanks for all the inspiration and ideas that have been shared over the years. There is not too many sites that have been "bookmarked" on my puter but yours definatley has a place here.
Johnboy out.............
Long Live the Wobbly.................
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
marknewton wrote: NEMMRRC wrote:Folks,I am at the National Narrow Gauge Convention in Portland, OR this week and Benchmark Publications has released a 25th anniversary release of The San Juan Central by model railroading's long-lost beloved son, Malcolm Furlow...You wrote in a previous post;"All some of us are saying is that we like Furlow and his modeling. It's clear you do not.".Not so. I neither like nor dislike Furlow. His modelling is not to my taste, but I don't feel very strongly about it one way or the other. It's the hagiography that accompanies him that I don't like.Cheers,Mark.
maandg wrote: While I never consider my work to be anywhere near the caliber of Furlow or Sellios, it has brought me more personal fulfillment than I can express. I have pleased myself with the results so far, which is really all I could hope for. For those who were unimpressed with my work, I still appreciate you taking the time to stop by and take a look anyway.
While I never consider my work to be anywhere near the caliber of Furlow or Sellios, it has brought me more personal fulfillment than I can express. I have pleased myself with the results so far, which is really all I could hope for. For those who were unimpressed with my work, I still appreciate you taking the time to stop by and take a look anyway.
Dont short yourself, its a very well done layout, right up there, any criticisms I may have made were only done so to point out objective differences in the modeling approaches. I respect your layout a great deal.
Have fun with your trains
For those who wish they'd bought the Furlow book of compiled articles on building the San Juan Central, but didn't want to pay exorbitant prices being asked for the original book nowadays, an ad in NG&SL Gazette says it is being reprinted by Becnhmark Books. $20.
Midnight Railroader wrote: For those who wish they'd bought the Furlow book of compiled articles on building the San Juan Central, but didn't want to pay exorbitant prices being asked for the original book nowadays, an ad in NG&SL Gazette says it is being reprinted by Becnhmark Books. $20.
Read that too, was glad to see that!
I only paid $20 for my copy off Evilbay a couple years ago but I will be looking at a copy at the LHS to see the newly added last chapter of the conveluted story of what became of the layout, thats a whole nother interesting topic...
Now if we can just get Kalmbach to reprint the John Allen book...
Also, this same issue of the Gazette includes a nice little mention of another of my top 5 layouts of all time, Bob Hegge's Crooked Mountain traction RR in the forward.
Another great issue!