RRTrainman wrote:Boy I really sparked a forest fire here!!! All I wanted to do here was is to find out if everyone is feeling the pinch for there beloved hobby of model train building. I know there are other places to find things, I just wanted to know if the inflated ecnomey has affect what you buy and where.
I started a thread recently:
http://cs.trains.com/forums/1460099/ShowPost.aspx
It was hobby related.
The theory was to find out if the higher price of gas was curtailing the discretionary spending on the hobby.
The correlation to the theory was found in another "hobby" of mine: fish - tropical, koi, and saltwater. The owner (holder of a Master's of Marine Biology) of the fish shop lamented the increase of heating prices and gas prices and with a sweep of his hand over the store saying "everything here is discretionary. Absolutely nothing here is a necessity. When such costs go up, discretionary spending goes down".
If you read the thread you may find what I found, it seems that:
MOST said it would not affect their hobby. They would still spend their weekly/monthly allowance for the hobby regardless. OR They had so many kits and supplies already to "last 20 years". They were/are the ones assumably who make good money and can afford what they want in a hobby.
MANY said it would affect it some. They would decrease the number of LHS trips. They would shop around. They would shop online. They were/are the ones assumably who can adjust their budgets and still fit their hobby in nicely.
SOME said it would affect it a bit. They would have to limit hobby spending. They, too, would shop for bargains. They would put hobby spending on hold. They were/are the ones assumably who are on fixed incomes, pensions, Social Security, Disability, or low income.
It seems those here don't want to dish about/hash out money issues here -unless or even when it is hobby related. Some can afford a $300 loco like a pack of playing cards. Some can afford the $300 loco if they can find it for $210. Some have to save for a year to get that loco, even at $199.
It all comes down to the haves and the have nots. The "haves" do not want to hear the have nots whine about money. The "some haves" will whine about it, but don't want to hear anyone else whine. The "have nots" do not want to hear the haves brag about their aquisitions.
It's all relative.
(And in all of this, I have to wonder who has credit card debt they cannot pay off. It seems in the real world many "haves" complain on national TV to financial advisors about mounting debt...but who is responsible for that? )
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
lvanhen wrote:Hey Mark, watch what you say - a presidential candidates economic advisor just got fired for calling Americans whiners!!
Hey Mark, watch what you say - a presidential candidates economic advisor just got fired for calling Americans whiners!!
Autobus Prime wrote:But here's the striking thing: we should go on complaining. That's right. Complaining about high prices is good for the economy in inflationary times. So do it. Ice cream maker downsizes the carton? Gripe and moan right back in a letter. Write letters to the paper. Be as unpleasant as possible, but target it carefully. And try to buy less of the inflationary-priced product, if possible.It's when people *expect* prices to rise without increases in value, and start programming it into the economy by pushing wages to increase in compensation, that we get into that 1970s situation. Complaining means we're tired of being cheated. And we definitely are being cheated. The only reason commodity prices are so high is because speculators pushed them there. Be mad, folks!But don't do it here. I wanna talk about trains. :)
Speculators, and more so Big Oil, hand in hand with the gov.s and Big Insurance. Exactly what certain terrorists wanted to provoke: the greedy destroying the free world's economy for them. Unfortunately it's working.
Sorry for the off topic bit!
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Sure model railroading is relatively expensive, but make those purchases count. For example,when building your layout try to use removable sections or modes of fastening, such as spiking or nailing track and roadbed rather than using contact cement or construction adhesive, so that if (or more often: when) you redesign your existing layout, you can re-use most of what is already paid for.
Virtually no one gets everything exactly the way they want it on the first try, so plan ahead for the inevitable renewal phase.
Scenery materials are often expendable, but trees can be made removable easily by planting them using metal shafts or pins in pre-drilled holes.
I disagree that hobbies are not necessities, something is needed in every person's life to ease the stress of modern living, we just have to learn to enjoy what we can while learning to become better (better people first, better modelers, etc.). There are always ways to enjoy most any hobby, it's merely a matter of finding the appropriate 'economy of scale' (pun intended).
Bottom line, it's about having fun. That's all.
So have fun, all.
;)
Autobus Prime wrote: ...and a few cheap diseasels to abuse.
Them's fightin' words! Just for that I'm gonna run my steam loco into the ground. Too bad it ain't brass.
Now you've made me feel old.
Anybody remember when you could buy a brand new car for under $2500?
I remember $1,895 for a new VW Beetle.
Or a brand new house for under $20,000?
My parents paid $11,000 for a house when I was a teen.
Gas for $0.35/gallon?
I remember $0.27 a gallon.
A Coke for $.010 or a candy bar (with more candy in it) for the same price?
Coke was $0.10 ... the candy bar was $0.05.
Remember when a McDonald's hamburger was a $0.15 and an order of fries the same?
When hamburgers were $0.15, fries were $0.12. I worked at McDonalds then. They had just introduced the new "fillet of fish" sandwich. at $0.35 it was the most expensive thing on the menu. Even milk shakes were only $0.20.
McDonalds was paying me $1.25 per hour.
And there was no "indoors" for customers. You bought your food at a walk up window and took it to your car.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Attaboy wrote: In 1972 I was earning about $1.45 an hour and paying 40 cents a gallon for gasoline. I had to work about 16.5 minutes to pay for a gallon of gas. Now I pay about $3.80 for a gallon of gasoline, but I earn over $29.00 an hour. So I only have to work about 7.75 minutes to buy that gallon of gas. Model railroading supplies/equipment are the same way. What was so good about the "good old days"?
In 1972 I was earning about $1.45 an hour and paying 40 cents a gallon for gasoline. I had to work about 16.5 minutes to pay for a gallon of gas. Now I pay about $3.80 for a gallon of gasoline, but I earn over $29.00 an hour. So I only have to work about 7.75 minutes to buy that gallon of gas. Model railroading supplies/equipment are the same way.
What was so good about the "good old days"?
Here's an interesting chart that shows minimum wages over the years and how they relate to 1996 dollars. Looks like 1968 was the best year to be working. It's been downhill ever since...http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774473.html
Instead of complaining, focus your energy on matching your resources and desires. It's not worth spending a lot of time complaining about what you personally have very little control over. Your spending habits, only when combined with those of 20,000 others, will have an impact on the future of the hobby.
In the mid 1970s, I had a bigger hobby budget ($25/month) then I do now ($40/month) after adjusting for inflation. So my way to enjoy the hobby is to ensure I don't run out of hobby $$ before I run out of hobby hours each month. I do that by avoiding RTR, and buying kits and kit-bashing instead. With 20 hours per month max for hobby time (includes running trains), I need to approach $2/hour for my hobby costs, and RTR often has a very high per hour cost unless you run it a lot.
I noticed that eBay prices have really dropped in the past couple of weeks - at least for the stuff I'm interested in. I don't know whether it's the summer slows or the economy, but it doesn't matter to me. For example, I ended up winning an unstarted MDC Shay kit for $45. I will likely spend another $70 on detail parts, back-dating, regear, and possibly remotor. Even if that figure makes it to $100, the cost is going to be less than $5/hr after I put an estimated 30 hours into making it the jewel I would like it to be.
My LHS was having a 25% sale on car kits last month. I spent $15 on a Labelle HOn3 boxcar, which I'm sure will take me 10 hours and another $10 to complete. Cost/hour = $2.50; running the boxcar in a train will drive the cost/hour down further. Furthermore, I'll enjoy running something I built more than I will running something I bought.
Another poster suggested keeping rosters within reason. I totally agree, and believe layout size should also be planned with any time and money limitations in mind. I have a 10 x 7.5 ft space for my HO layouts, so 3 HOn3 and 3 HO locos are plenty until I have more space, budget, and time.
Yes, a relatively simple 4x8 with nothing but RTR is going to be somewhere between $500 and $1000, and can go higher. But those are choices we all get to make.
I prefer to see the glass half full.
Fred W
steemtrayn wrote:I remember my father sending me to the gas station with a dime and a quarter to get a pack of Salems from the machine (I was 7). When I quit smoking in 1980, cigs were $0.70 a pack. It seems the money I'm saving now is all going to buy train stuff.
Nowadays if you sent a child to the gas station to buy cigarettes, you would be arrested for child endangerment and the clerk who sold them to him would loose his job and the gas station might well loose its business license.
Ah, yes! The Land of the Free!
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
selector wrote:Autobus Prime, I don't mind threads populating the forum when they have no appeal to me. I figure I can share space here at no cost just as other members can. I would hope the forum appeals to a broad range of interests and needs. Instead, I was just pointing out that, along with the spiffy and complex decoders (that I explained are now easily made, acquired, and understood because of the contributions of earlier giants in thought) even something as simple as the toy drive systems and their motors are greatly improved...the lowly can motor being an example.I didn't mean to sound impatient or intolerant of threads dealing with older components. No, and for the very reason you stated at the end of your question to me.-Crandell
Autobus Prime, I don't mind threads populating the forum when they have no appeal to me. I figure I can share space here at no cost just as other members can. I would hope the forum appeals to a broad range of interests and needs. Instead, I was just pointing out that, along with the spiffy and complex decoders (that I explained are now easily made, acquired, and understood because of the contributions of earlier giants in thought) even something as simple as the toy drive systems and their motors are greatly improved...the lowly can motor being an example.
I didn't mean to sound impatient or intolerant of threads dealing with older components. No, and for the very reason you stated at the end of your question to me.
-Crandell
RRTrainman wrote:Don't get me wrong, I love this hobby with great passion for it. It just seams that with all of the new thing for our hobby, thing seam to be inflated abit. I've have purchased some of the new things and I don't see the differance in it. Like my newest addition my -9 BNSF the only thing I see is a place for my decoder for when I change to DCC some day off. I just don't see a 50% cost increase for a couple of pins on top of the motor to hook it up.
What follows is the text of an email my father, a retired mining engineer and metallurgist sent to me just this morning. I think it says a lot about your post and this thread:
"I have been reading recently about inflation in inputs to the manufacturers, and from them to the wholesalers, which are dukeing it out with the retailers who have to deal with the public. The retailers are resisting price increases because buying sentiment is down to 60% from 90 not long ago.. The buying public has lost or is losing confidence. The retailers are resisting raising prices because they already see the resistance from purchasers, You can stand on the beach and tell the tide not to come in, but it will Manufacturing inputs are rising 20-50 and in some cases as much as 70%. This has to create a tidal wave of price increases resulting in inflation, demands for higher wages and rising interest rates to curtail consumption. Inflation hit an annual rate of 5% in US last month. It was over 3% in Canada. Both Canada and US should be raising interest rates now, but they are caught between a rock and a hard place because they see the ecomomy needing low rates and see inflation as a lesser problem at the moment. The longer they wait, the more rates will have to rise to compensate for the delay. This has been apparent to me for months. The published figures for inflation leave out important items and are false. It is to the gov't's advantage because of indexed pensions and public perception. Costco has increased the price of rotisserie chicken from 4.99 to 5.99 in recent months. That's a 20% increase.. The cost of shipping a container from the far East to North America has gone from 2000 to 8000 dollars. That has to be passed on. The same type of thing is happening for bananas from South America, oranges from South Africa, avocados from Mexico and on and on. The price of coking coal has tripled, as has the price of iron ore. Steel has to go up----appliances---cars. Those with floating rate debt will get their (butts) in the crack, if I'm right. Same thing with debt coming up for renewal in the future. Forewarned is forearmed."
If nothing else, he is warning his children to get out of, or to rate-fix or reduce drastically, any debt we have. If you are paying off floating interest debt, and have this inflationary bubble rising to the surface along with the rest of the consumer world, inflated hobby prices will be the least of your troubles you if you don't act now.
4x8 are fun too!!! RussellRail
"I just wanted to know if the inflated ecnomey has affect what you buy and where." When you put it that way RRTrainman, yes. I am very careful about what I buy and find that a few hours of effort on a Bachmann building with paints, drybrushing and other forms of weathering can produce a finished product worthy of any layout. As for locomotives, e-bay is a great spot, but as several have mentioned you can get burned. Most sellers have return policies for refund, but you only get the sale price-postage to and from is on you. You just have to look around.
One example of going the economic way is, for the less than the price of of a new Walthers, Athearn or any major brand name car, you can buy lot sets of various trucks on e-bay. Then go to any local hobby shop that stocks or re-sells old freight cars, or find lots of them on e-bay for ususally 1-10 dollars, most of which need work, and buy what you want. Replace the trucks, and, with some of the older, more handled cars that look pretty beat up, you now have a "new" car or cars on your layout and it's already weathered and has that "been around for a long time" look. You also might have to replace couplers, but the cost per car will be well below the price of a new one with the aged look most of us are looking for.
Hope this sheds some light. Good luck on your layout and don't give up. We recycle in life, why not keep recycling on your railroad?
tomikawaTT wrote: I certainly DO remember those days. I also remember gasoline at four gallons for a buck and a minimum wage of $.75.
I certainly DO remember those days. I also remember gasoline at four gallons for a buck and a minimum wage of $.75.
I've got to agree. Back when a tyco loco kit cost $12, that same $12 would have bought about 40 gallons of gas. Today, 40 gallons of gas costs about the same as a decent DC loco (that probably looks and runs better than TYCO).
Also, at minimum wage you had to work 15 hours to buy the TYCO. We pay our unskilled labor $11 per hour. If they work 15 hours they can buy that same loco (above) or 40 gallons of gas.
There are ways to economize. One of the great things about this hobby is that the more time you're willing to spend, the less it costs. Fifty dollars will buy enough supplies to hand lay about 70 feet of track and that will probably take about 70 hours, a cost of 71 cents an hour. I've built a decent 3 X 16 layout with a dozen brass locos for about 3 grand, and it's kept me occupied for over 7 years. I buy used stuff on ebay and at train shows. Granted, some of it requires fixing, but I'm OK with that.
This hobby has always been a little pricey for the RTR hobbiest, but it's pretty cheap entertainment for those of us who are willing to build more of it ourselves.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
marknewton wrote:"Possible newbies" to the hobby aren't going to keep Walthers or Athearn in business.
loathar wrote: Medina1128 wrote: I got in the hobby back in the mid 80s and an Athearn blue box kit locomotive was about $28 and $3.79 for a freight car. I was buying quite a bit of stuff in the mid to late 80's and I don't remember Athearns being THAT cheap. I seem to remember more like $40 for a GP and around $6 for freight cars.
Medina1128 wrote: I got in the hobby back in the mid 80s and an Athearn blue box kit locomotive was about $28 and $3.79 for a freight car.
I got in the hobby back in the mid 80s and an Athearn blue box kit locomotive was about $28 and $3.79 for a freight car.
I was buying quite a bit of stuff in the mid to late 80's and I don't remember Athearns being THAT cheap. I seem to remember more like $40 for a GP and around $6 for freight cars.
selector wrote:Even the can motors that drive the toys are a huge improvement over what fills the forum when new fellas and returnees come on line and ask how to fix an old open frame motor.
This is the essence of the whole debate...if there is a debate: hobbies are part of "Hey, we got some money left over after the kid's college funds and our mortgage have been topped up!" They come after everything else, and somewhere in the middle of your list that might include hockey game tickets, lottery tickets, icecream, beer, soda pop, chips, Bose sound sytem for your car, the hot rod out back that you always say you're going to rebuild, etc., etc., etc. None of those things matters when you are not paying your bills responsibly. If you are well fixed and current with your obligations, then you have money to play with in some cases. But as Mark and others are pointing out, fun has to come later, and only if you can really afford it.
None of us is "owed" a hobby, or even a good time, for that matter.
And, as others have argued, we are way further ahead economically and with regard to true enjoyment opportunity than we were years ago when considering the true cost of things. When you think of all the PhD's who have worked long careers engaged in costly research and development in solid state physics, quantum mechanics, advance theoretical physics, chemistry, metallurgy, materials science, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, and so on who have enabled us to throw $20 decoders into our $100 toy trains, I'd say we are benefitting greatly in terms of quality of life. Even the can motors that drive the toys are a huge improvement over what fills the forum when new fellas and returnees come on line and ask how to fix an old open frame motor.
I'd say a decent haircut should have precedence over the cost of hobby materials.
Just my opinion.
marknewton wrote: MAbruce wrote: In case you have not picked up on the general 'vibe', a lot of members around here don't have very much patience for this kind of topic...You're not wrong. I'm sick of all the whingeing. If people are finding the hobby unaffordable, they either need to get a job that pays more, or find another hobby - it's that simple.Mark.
MAbruce wrote: In case you have not picked up on the general 'vibe', a lot of members around here don't have very much patience for this kind of topic...
In case you have not picked up on the general 'vibe', a lot of members around here don't have very much patience for this kind of topic...
As far as what some of the other posters have stated, I started working in 1959, an MRRing a few years before that. I was paid $55 per week - before taxes - for 10 hrs a day Mon to Fri & 5 hrs on Sat - That's 55 hrs at a streight $1 per hr - NO OT!! By the same token, I rented a furnished apartment for $42 per month, gas was under $.20 a gallon, and I could do a week's grocery shopping for $15 - including a carton of cigarettes!! An Athearn BB freight car kit could be had for $1 - I think list was $1.50 - how long did I have to work for 1 kit? a lot longer than most of us have to work for a $7.50 kit today!! IT'S ALL RELATIVE - THIS IS A HOBBY - NOT A LIFE'S NECESSITY!! OK, RANT OVER!!
Dallas Model Works wrote: It's a business.And like any business, the market dicates what happens.And you are the market.Don't like higher priced items? Don't buy 'em and you can bet the maufacturers will start making cheaper products.The trick is, your fellow model railroaders need to share your opinion and follow your lead.But the rise of RTR seems to indicate that people do want it "done for 'em" and they don't mind paying for it.
It's a business.
And like any business, the market dicates what happens.
And you are the market.
Don't like higher priced items? Don't buy 'em and you can bet the maufacturers will start making cheaper products.
The trick is, your fellow model railroaders need to share your opinion and follow your lead.
But the rise of RTR seems to indicate that people do want it "done for 'em" and they don't mind paying for it.
I don't understand why everybody is complaining about prices. Model Railroading has always been expensive.
When I was a kid (though my wife still thinks I am a kid) back the late 1950s through the 1960s, I couldn't afford to buy railroad stuff. Even train sets were beyond my grasp as they usussly cost more than I could afford and I lacked the patience the save for several months. So what did I spend my money on? Two things: comic books and plastic models. I usually had not more than $1.00 and often had much less. But I could by a comic for a dime or a Lindberg model for 29 cents. Revel and Monogram were more expensive but even those were much less than dollar.
Still I drooled over the train sets set up in the department stores and my parents knew it. But they couldn't afford to buy them for me either. The end result was that I didn't get into model railroading until I had a kid of my own. That was 1977.
That year, I took my 2 year old son, to a store called Big Daddy's located on Northern Blvd here in Queens, NY. I had been there before and looked around but hadn't bought much from them. But this time we bought an HO Tyco train set. I se up the track and my son and I began playing with it. (Yeah I know, I said it was for him but it was really for me.) I bought more track, cars and a couple of other and better engines (Athearn FP-7 and FP-45 in Amtrak markings) but HO never never had much charm for me because I lived in a two bedroom apartment with my wife (who hated HO trains) and my son.
In the early 1980s I decided to try N Scale and have never looked back even though between 1987 and this year I didn't do much other than read about it.
But looking at price changes, I don't see much difference despite the inflation that has occured between 1980 and now. Back then I was happy to earn 20K a year. A good N-Scale locomotive (if there was such athing) might cost between $15 and $20. Boxcars cost about $2-$3.00. These days it is not unusual for an N-scale diesel to cost between $40 and $70 dollars and for cars to go for $9.95 and up. So prices have gone oup 2 to four times. but salaries have gone up more times. So what is the problem?
I also think people have to realize that the companies that make and sell these items are in business to make a profit and to provide the owner's with a return on their investments and their employess with a salary and a modicum of benefits so they can feed their families and endulge in a few luxuries as well. They are not there to give anything away nor are they there solely for your benefit. Thus, if they can't make a profit, they aren't going to stay in business very long. It's simply a fact of life that one can't ignore.
Sure I'd love to buy brass and have the biggest and best model railroad in the world, but the reality is that I have to feed my family and provide them with a nice place to live and few luxuries/necessities like college educations, TV, computers, cars, etc. just like all of us do. So we all have to make some compromises. It's the same thing that our parents did and our grandparents did before them. So why complain?
Irv
Dallas Model Works wrote: But the rise of RTR seems to indicate that people do want it "done for 'em" and they don't mind paying for it.
That's about it.
The current economy aside, many people are more "time poor" than they are "money poor".
Craig
DMW
Tom,
I guess my question for you is: Are you looking for alternatives?
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Attaboy wrote:In 1972 I was earning about $1.45 an hour and paying 40 cents a gallon for gasoline. I had to work about 16.5 minutes to pay for a gallon of gas. Now I pay about $3.80 for a gallon of gasoline, but I earn over $29.00 an hour. So I only have to work about 7.75 minutes to buy that gallon of gas. Model railroading supplies/equipment are the same way. What was so good about the "good old days"?
RRTrainman wrote: Now you can't buy a loco for $100.00 and its RTR with DCC and sound. Don't talk about steam loco's there prices are 3 times what they were several years ago.
Now you can't buy a loco for $100.00 and its RTR with DCC and sound. Don't talk about steam loco's there prices are 3 times what they were several years ago.
You're not looking hard enough. I have a fleet of On30 steam locos bought over the past year or so that cost well under $100 each.
There are many deals to be found--you just need to look.
You want to talk an expensive hobby? Try stock car racing. Speed=money.
marknewton wrote:You're not wrong. I'm sick of all the whingeing. If people are finding the hobby unaffordable, they either need to get a job that pays more, or find another hobby - it's that simple.Mark.
Model railroading is a hobby. It's not meant to be in the same category as say, buying your weekly groceries, paying the utility bill, or making your mortgage/rent payment for your home. If you can't afford to buy that 100$ fantasy Athearn locomotive right away, then save up for it. You don't have to buy a new one every month, or have some outrageous hobby budget that's thousands of dollars either.
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