marknewton wrote: Dallas Model Works wrote: MagnusDid you try Wikipedia for the historical info you seek?It's always one of the first places I look. And after that, when you want reliable information, then where do you look?:-)Cheers,Mark.
Dallas Model Works wrote: MagnusDid you try Wikipedia for the historical info you seek?It's always one of the first places I look.
Magnus
Did you try Wikipedia for the historical info you seek?
It's always one of the first places I look.
Hey now, Capt. Cynical!
But you have a point. Personally I use Wikipedia for only certain types of information.
Anything subjective, such as certain types of history, politics or trendy stuff like global warming I avoid.
Craig
DMW
Anyone got any good book sugestions on freight ships during 20-60's?
I checked Amazon and found some but nothing that really caught my attention.
I get your point!
Since this is not something that is in need to be 100% correct but more a general idea kind of a thing for me both this forum and Wikipedia is "good enough" a source. I also checked out my private library but unfortunately there was no info on just this matter. Or atleast none that was easy to find without reading each of the books cover to cover. I take everything I read on the Internet with a pinch of salt since both Wiki and the forums are a mess of incorrect and totally contradicting answers. But for the topic if coal was an alternative as a fuel in the 50's for modeling purposes when I'm not all to concerned to get it a 100% it is fine enough.
I did a search of the Internet in general I should say rather then going for Wiki in it self but a surprisingly small amount of info is available.
Dallas Model Works wrote:MagnusDid you try Wikipedia for the historical info you seek?It's always one of the first places I look.
Yes sir I did. But I couldn't really find any useful answers on the net.
I would like to thank EVERYONE who have contributed to this thread. Your a great bunch of guys and thanks for all the info.
marknewton wrote:Magnus, the Laker articles are in the June, July, August, and October, 1998 issues of MM.Good luck with your project,Mark.
Thanks Mark.
I will post some pictures when I get their. Still some months ahead. I plan to buld the ships this winther.
Mangus, I was in the US Coast Guard during the 50's & 60's and am a maritine hobbyest. I sailed the N. Atlantic out of NYC. The ship I was on was built in 1936 and was an oil fired steamship driven by two steam turbines. In San Francisco I boarded many cargo ships and never saw a coal burning ship or a coaling station. Most oceantic frieghters built during WWI were oil fired. This included the Three Islanders, and Lakers. By WWII all American steamships were oil fired, including Liberty, C1, C2, C3 and Victory. I think the Laker would be a good choice, they were around 250' long. The others listed were 400' to 450' long. Also an intresting note; every country engaged in WWII had Lakers.
Rob
Many moons ago, MR featured a 1:64 (S scale) layout, one feature of which was a side-dump hopper unloader that tilted hoppers with live carloads of coal into a quayside barge. The gadget unloaded one car at a time, and was a lot smaller than the roller coaster rotaries seen in tidewater Virginia.
I don't know if the design was freelance, or a model of an actual prototype. It did look real, and apparently functioned well.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Hi again: Doug the practice of using a sailing vessel for a barge or more correctly a consort for a steamer was very common on the lakes in the early years up to about the 30's. They were usually left with short masts so they could be sailed if needed in an emergency. There were also steel barges built for the steamers to tow. Many times owners would order a steamer and a barge at the same time. Later as the steamers got larger the economics of towing a barge was not so the the practice was profitable. Towing a barge also slowed the boat down. Of course the tug boat owners liked the deal as they could make some money docking the unpowered barge.
marknewton wrote:What about a "Laker"? Mainline Modeller ran a 3-part article on these a while back, complete with HO scale drawings. IIRC, an HO scale Laker would be about 3' long.http://www.putinbayphotos.com/modboats/modboats.htmlMark.
Thanks for the sugestion and the pic. A laker class is exactly what I'm going to do since the Sylvan model in one. Would you happen to know the issue number there thow articles are in?
That is one beautiful boat.
Paul W. Beverung wrote:Mark did you do the model of the ACE. Great job.
Mark did you do the model of the ACE. Great job.
Melchoir wrote:Ho scale ships are not that plentiful..I am in the process and it will be a long one of converting a 1/72 scale Snowberry Corvette kit by Revell to an ocean going freighter.You need a fair bit of space to display it on your waterfront ,but for the money it's the best I have seen in my travels. I'm a bit partial to this kit as the Canadian navy ran a lot these corvettes during WWII and we have the last remaining one on display here in Halifax..I've also started work on an old Frog kit ..A Shell Welder boat fro a oil tanker ..The scale is not 1/87 but you can be creative here and there..On my layout everybody is happy to sail aboard her. Frenchman River tugs are great also. Have fun.
If you want a background model, you might use some of 1/350 - 1/400 scale models. Trumpeter makes 1/350 Jeremiah O'Brien Liberty ship which might do a nice job in forecd perspective. Revell produced a C-3 freighter under various names in 1/375 and attack transport based on a Liberty hull in 1/375 that can fit as well. THeir T-2 tanker (also under various names) is 1/400 and might do as well. Now if you want a tanlker closer to scale, you might search for Lindbergh's USS Neches kits. That one was box and smaller than the Revell version but it might fit better in an N or Zscale layout.
Irv
There was at least one on the Great Lakes that was actually a sailing ship hull demasted and turned into a barge for hauling coal to the power plants on Lake Michigan.
Doug
Evening Lillen: If you are going to use Sylvan Models for both ships they would both be coal burners in the 50's. The Mc Curdy that was operated by Stinbrenner used coal into the late 60's. Many other ships on the Great Lakes used coal into the late 60's and 70's and the Badger is still burning coal today.
As for the size the lakers came in a large range of sizes. The older ones being from 300 feet up to 600 feet. The larger boats came along during the war and after with the 1000 footers being built in the 80's. A 1000 foot boat is around 11 ft. in HO. The visitor center in Duluth has a model of an ore dock with a 1000 footer in HO. Very impressive. I'm sticking to 537 ft as my largest boat on my layout. My ore dock will be 11ft long. That makes the boat look small.
I'd like to see some of what you are doing. Drop me a line if you like. I have an extensive library on the Great Lakes and if I can help in any way I will.
modelmaker51 wrote: Here's some HO waterline models: http://www.bluejacketinc.com/honscale.htm http://www.frenchmanriver.com/frenchmanriver/directory.htm
Here's some HO waterline models:
http://www.bluejacketinc.com/honscale.htm
http://www.frenchmanriver.com/frenchmanriver/directory.htm
Thanks for the links, the top one was new to me.
Thanks,
WickhamMan wrote: If you're modeling the Great Lakes, you might want to try one of these:http://www.bearcomarine.com/They have ships as long as 71" to fill your space!
If you're modeling the Great Lakes, you might want to try one of these:
http://www.bearcomarine.com/
They have ships as long as 71" to fill your space!
I will be getting the Sylvan vessels but through another source. Thanks fro the link anyways.
tomikawaTT wrote: Howdy, Magnus.For your coal-fired tramp, a WWII Liberty ship stripped of its military hardware and with woodwork replacing steel plate around the deck house would be a believable option. While the Liberties date from 1942-1944, the design was copied from an 1887(!) original. The Liberties burned oil to generate steam for their triple-expansion reciprocating steam engines, but I'd bet big bucks that the original design was a coal burner.While there might not have been any dedicated coaling facilities for steamships in New York in the '60s, there was still plenty of coal being moved in barges around New York Harbor (to feed several Con Ed power plants that had no rail access, for openers.) I'm sure that if someone needed a load of bunker coal, someone would arrange a way to deliver it.Chuck (long-ago Merchant Marine cadet modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Howdy, Magnus.
For your coal-fired tramp, a WWII Liberty ship stripped of its military hardware and with woodwork replacing steel plate around the deck house would be a believable option. While the Liberties date from 1942-1944, the design was copied from an 1887(!) original. The Liberties burned oil to generate steam for their triple-expansion reciprocating steam engines, but I'd bet big bucks that the original design was a coal burner.
While there might not have been any dedicated coaling facilities for steamships in New York in the '60s, there was still plenty of coal being moved in barges around New York Harbor (to feed several Con Ed power plants that had no rail access, for openers.) I'm sure that if someone needed a load of bunker coal, someone would arrange a way to deliver it.
Chuck (long-ago Merchant Marine cadet modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The Liberty ships were designed to last a single transoceanic trip, so it is amazing some lasted a lot longer. We've got one here in the San Francisco bay:
http://www.ssjeremiahobrien.org/
Mark
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
You are right, but coal was still available to shis by barge into the 1960s and possibly longer in NYC.
Ad for the Liberties, there were alot of them built during World War II until replaced by Victories in let 1944/45. Not as many Victories were built as there were Liberties. But the US wasn't the only country building merchant ships during World War II. The Canadians and the Briish were doing it too and many of those ships were coal burners.