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50's freight ships

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50's freight ships
Posted by Lillen on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 6:37 AM

Hi,

 

I'm going to use a freight ship on my layout. But I have a question. When did the days of coal fired freighters end? I was going to use a tramp steamer from Sylvan as a model but I need to know what fuel that I need to supply it with. I like coal so I will probably use it but when did the old coal steamers disappear in the U.S?

 

Also, another question, anyone knows of any fishing vessels in HO?

 

Magnus

Unless otherwise mentioned it's HO and about the 50's. Magnus
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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 7:56 AM

Well if you go over to Walthers website and do a search on 'fishing' or 'boats' you should come up with some leads.

 

Stix
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Posted by Lillen on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 8:14 AM
 wjstix wrote:

Well if you go over to Walthers website and do a search on 'fishing' or 'boats' you should come up with some leads.

 

 

Well thats where I started of course but I only really found one that would be appropriate. I always check the obvious before posting.  One model from Sea Port Model Works was nice and I might get it but I would like some options.

 

Magnus

Unless otherwise mentioned it's HO and about the 50's. Magnus
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Posted by R. T. POTEET on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 9:26 AM
I would not find it incredulous if there were not a few coal-fired vessels still sailing the seven seas but most, I am sure, were converted to, at least, diesel when the price of coal went sky-high in the mid-60s. I know a guy who served with the merchant marine in WWII and he was telling me one time that in certain convoys the amount of smoke became indicative of a large number of coal-fired vessels. It would not surprise me, however, if the current inflation of petroleum prices did not cause a limited return to modern stoker-equipped coal-fired turbine powered vessels.

From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet

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Posted by corsair7 on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 9:54 AM
 Lillen wrote:

Hi,

 

I'm going to use a freight ship on my layout. But I have a question. When did the days of coal fired freighters end? I was going to use a tramp steamer from Sylvan as a model but I need to know what fuel that I need to supply it with. I like coal so I will probably use it but when did the old coal steamers disappear in the U.S?

 

Also, another question, anyone knows of any fishing vessels in HO?

 

Magnus

Coal was used to provide steam for merchant ships into the 1960s as there were still alot of ships that were built for World War II that were around at least until then. After that there was general shoft away from steam power and to diesel power because it proved to be cheaper in terms of crew size and maintenance.

Of course now, with the price of fuel oil being so expensive you may a another shift to cheaper sources or better efficiency in the use of any kind of fossil fuels. But don't be surprised if alot of ships start using diesel-electric drives like modern deisel locomotives.

As for the availability of freighters, you probably don't want to get them if you are modelling HO or larger sacles as they would be huge cpompared to your locomotives (about 36 inches for a 300 foot vessel). Of course you could paint it on your backdrop.

It's much more manageable in N or Z scales.

Irv

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Posted by dstarr on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 10:27 AM

   Passenger liners and Navy warships began burning oil before WWI.  Freighters were built burning the cheaper coal up thru WWII.  After the war most new freighters were built for oil burning.  The freighter I sailed on in 1956 was an oil burner, she was fairly new and in excellent condition.  I'd expect a coal burner in the 1950's to be older, shabbier and worn looking. 

   Oil burning ships made refueling into light work.  Coal burners used to be hand loaded with coal in bags, an awful job requiring a lot of men, taking a day or more, and covering the ship inside and out with black coal dust.  Barges would come along side, coal ports in the hull near the water line opened and the bagged coal dumped into the bunkers by hand.  

   Oil has nearly twice the heat energy per cubic foot than coal.  So for the same range, a coal burner needed nearly twice as much precious internal space devoted to coal bunkers as an oil burner needed for tanks.  And coal burners needed a crew of stokers to keep shoveling coal into the furnaces, whereas the engineer on watch need only turn a valve to tend an oil fire. 

 

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Posted by fwright on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 10:55 AM

Magnus

I can't tell you when coal firing ships disappeared in North America.  My best guess would be around the World War I time frame, possibly as late as the '20s or '30s.  Waterfront coaling facilities were gone by the '50s.  I know when I was working on ships in the early '70s, all the ships were oil-fired steam or diesel.  And these were ships built in the 1920s and 1930s.

From my understanding, the price of Bunker C in comparison to diesel helped drive a move from oil-fired steam to diesel in both the marine and railroad worlds in the '40s, '50s, and '60s.  There were very few steam ships left in the '70s, and they were being rapidly retired.  Steam ships suffered from the same drawbacks as locomotives - firing the boilers and making feed water took more labor and more skilled labor than diesel fueling, as well as fuel costs equalizing.  Most new ship construction (except for the largest ships) from the 1960s on was diesel.  Many of the diesel engines used were based on their their railroad brethren - Alco and EMD/GM blocks.

The Yahoo group on water front modeling (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waterfrontmodeling/) would have better and more accurate information than just my personal experience.

Fred W

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Posted by ndbprr on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 11:05 AM
For what it is worth the Lake Michigan car ferry is still coal fired.  I rode it from Manitowoc Wisconsin to Ludington Michigan two years ago.  Before they loaded any cars they backed a large dump truck on board and dumped the coal into the bilge area for the trip.  I was probably one of the few people enjoying the smell as the wind was out of the west for most of the trip.
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Posted by PA&ERR on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 11:09 AM

Of course there is always the nuclear option....

N.S. Savannah!

-George

"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."

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Posted by Lillen on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:22 PM

Thanks for the info guys.

 

I think I will do like this. First of all, their WILL be two boats on the layout. I already got the space set aside for them and I will probably end up having two more boats, a tug and a fishing boat. But the two big ones will be a bulk freighter and a steam tramp. I do not think that the size is a problem. They are just 36" each and the place where they will be put is nearly 36 feet long. That is how long that yard will be. It's at the opposite end of my other big yard(which is mostly a passenger station on the top deck).

 

So the bulk freighter will do what it does and be fueled on oil. The tramp steamer will change between sessions, sometimes it will be a coal burner and sometimes a oil burner. The ship will be different ships so to speak. That will allow me to ship fuel to it as I feel like it. Also, since the ships is so versatile as a destination it will allow me to tun freight cars with a wide variety of goods and merchandise. And I can change it between sessions. For me that is a perfect industry to model.

 

Another reason to use ships is that I love them, I started my modelling career by building scale ships, which then led me in to war games and then that led me to trains and now this, full circle and nothing lost. So the ships, along with the passenger stations will be my main focus on the layout.

 

One more thing to remember, these boats are large, but the are not huge, they are really only long, but only twice as long as a Big Boy so hardly to visually demanding for a layout.

 

Once more, thanks everyone.

 

Magnus

Unless otherwise mentioned it's HO and about the 50's. Magnus
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Posted by tomikawaTT on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:05 PM

Howdy, Magnus.

For your coal-fired tramp, a WWII Liberty ship stripped of its military hardware and with woodwork replacing steel plate around the deck house would be a believable option.  While the Liberties date from 1942-1944, the design was copied from an 1887(!) original.  The Liberties burned oil to generate steam for their triple-expansion reciprocating steam engines, but I'd bet big bucks that the original design was a coal burner.

While there might not have been any dedicated coaling facilities for steamships in New York in the '60s, there was still plenty of coal being moved in barges around New York Harbor (to feed several Con Ed power plants that had no rail access, for openers.)  I'm sure that if someone needed a load of bunker coal, someone would arrange a way to deliver it.

Chuck (long-ago Merchant Marine cadet modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by corsair7 on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:17 PM
 tomikawaTT wrote:

Howdy, Magnus.

For your coal-fired tramp, a WWII Liberty ship stripped of its military hardware and with woodwork replacing steel plate around the deck house would be a believable option.  While the Liberties date from 1942-1944, the design was copied from an 1887(!) original.  The Liberties burned oil to generate steam for their triple-expansion reciprocating steam engines, but I'd bet big bucks that the original design was a coal burner.

While there might not have been any dedicated coaling facilities for steamships in New York in the '60s, there was still plenty of coal being moved in barges around New York Harbor (to feed several Con Ed power plants that had no rail access, for openers.)  I'm sure that if someone needed a load of bunker coal, someone would arrange a way to deliver it.

Chuck (long-ago Merchant Marine cadet modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

You are right, but coal was still available to shis by barge into the 1960s and possibly longer in NYC.

Ad for the Liberties, there were alot of them built during World War II until replaced by Victories in let 1944/45. Not as many Victories were built as there were Liberties. But the US wasn't the only country building merchant ships during World War II. The Canadians and the Briish were doing it too and many of those ships were coal burners.

Irv

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Posted by modelmaker51 on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:15 PM

Jay 

C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1 

Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums 

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Posted by WickhamMan on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:53 PM

If you're modeling the Great Lakes, you might want to try one of these:

http://www.bearcomarine.com/

They have ships as long as 71" to fill your space!

Ed W.
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Posted by markpierce on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 3:46 PM
 tomikawaTT wrote:

Howdy, Magnus.

For your coal-fired tramp, a WWII Liberty ship stripped of its military hardware and with woodwork replacing steel plate around the deck house would be a believable option.  While the Liberties date from 1942-1944, the design was copied from an 1887(!) original.  The Liberties burned oil to generate steam for their triple-expansion reciprocating steam engines, but I'd bet big bucks that the original design was a coal burner.

While there might not have been any dedicated coaling facilities for steamships in New York in the '60s, there was still plenty of coal being moved in barges around New York Harbor (to feed several Con Ed power plants that had no rail access, for openers.)  I'm sure that if someone needed a load of bunker coal, someone would arrange a way to deliver it.

Chuck (long-ago Merchant Marine cadet modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

The Liberty ships were designed to last a single transoceanic trip, so it is amazing some lasted a lot longer.  We've got one here in the San Francisco bay:

http://www.ssjeremiahobrien.org/

Mark

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Posted by Lillen on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 5:27 PM
 WickhamMan wrote:

If you're modeling the Great Lakes, you might want to try one of these:

http://www.bearcomarine.com/

They have ships as long as 71" to fill your space!

 

I will be getting the Sylvan vessels but through another source. Thanks fro the link anyways.

 

Magnus

Unless otherwise mentioned it's HO and about the 50's. Magnus
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Posted by Lillen on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 5:40 PM
 modelmaker51 wrote:

Here's some HO waterline models:

http://www.bluejacketinc.com/honscale.htm

http://www.frenchmanriver.com/frenchmanriver/directory.htm

 

Thanks for the links, the top one was new to me.

 

Thanks,

 

Magnus

Unless otherwise mentioned it's HO and about the 50's. Magnus
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Posted by Melchoir on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 6:25 PM
Ho scale ships are not that plentiful..I am in the process and it will be a long one of converting a 1/72 scale Snowberry Corvette kit by Revell to an ocean going freighter.You need a fair bit of space to display it on your waterfront ,but for the money it's the best I have seen in my travels. I'm a bit partial to this kit as the Canadian navy ran a lot these corvettes during WWII and we have the last remaining one on display here in Halifax..I've also started work on an old Frog kit ..A Shell Welder boat fro a oil tanker ..The scale is not 1/87 but you can be creative here and there..On my layout everybody is happy to sail aboard her. Frenchman River tugs are great also. Have fun.
Michael Modelling the Canadian Pacific & Canadian National Railways in Canada's Maritime Provinces
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Posted by marknewton on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 9:15 PM
What about a "Laker"? Mainline Modeller ran a 3-part article on these a while back, complete with HO scale drawings. IIRC, an HO scale Laker would be about 3' long.



http://www.putinbayphotos.com/modboats/modboats.html

Mark.
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Posted by Paul W. Beverung on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 9:47 PM

Evening Lillen: If you are going to use Sylvan Models for both ships they would both be coal burners in the 50's. The Mc Curdy that was operated by Stinbrenner used coal into the late 60's. Many other ships on the Great Lakes used coal into the late 60's and 70's and the Badger is still burning coal today.

As for the size the lakers came in a large range of sizes. The older ones being from 300 feet up to 600 feet. The larger boats came along during the war and after with the 1000 footers being built in the 80's. A 1000 foot boat is around 11 ft. in HO. The visitor center in Duluth has a model of an ore dock with a 1000 footer in HO. Very impressive. I'm sticking to 537 ft as my largest boat on my layout. My ore dock will be 11ft long. That makes the boat look small.

I'd like to see some of what you are doing. Drop me a line if you like. I have an extensive library on the Great Lakes and if I can help in any way I will.

Mark did you do the model of the ACE. Great job.

Paul The Duluth, Superior, & Southeastern " The Superior Route " WETSU
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Posted by DougF on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 9:56 PM

There was at least one on the Great Lakes that was actually a sailing ship hull demasted and turned into a barge for hauling coal to the power plants on Lake Michigan.

Doug

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Posted by corsair7 on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 11:22 PM

 Melchoir wrote:
Ho scale ships are not that plentiful..I am in the process and it will be a long one of converting a 1/72 scale Snowberry Corvette kit by Revell to an ocean going freighter.You need a fair bit of space to display it on your waterfront ,but for the money it's the best I have seen in my travels. I'm a bit partial to this kit as the Canadian navy ran a lot these corvettes during WWII and we have the last remaining one on display here in Halifax..I've also started work on an old Frog kit ..A Shell Welder boat fro a oil tanker ..The scale is not 1/87 but you can be creative here and there..On my layout everybody is happy to sail aboard her. Frenchman River tugs are great also. Have fun.

If you want a background model, you might use some of 1/350 - 1/400 scale models. Trumpeter makes 1/350 Jeremiah O'Brien Liberty ship which might do a nice job in forecd perspective. Revell produced a C-3 freighter under various names in 1/375 and attack transport based on a Liberty hull in 1/375 that can fit as well. THeir T-2 tanker (also under various names) is 1/400 and might do as well. Now if you want a tanlker closer to scale, you might search for Lindbergh's USS Neches kits. That one was box and smaller than the Revell version but it might fit better in an N or Zscale layout.

Irv

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Posted by marknewton on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:03 AM
 Paul W. Beverung wrote:

Mark did you do the model of the ACE. Great job.


No Paul, it's not my model, I just found it on the 'net, at the website I linked below the picture. It is a nice looking model, isn't it?

Cheers,

Mark.
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Posted by Lillen on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:30 AM

 marknewton wrote:
What about a "Laker"? Mainline Modeller ran a 3-part article on these a while back, complete with HO scale drawings. IIRC, an HO scale Laker would be about 3' long.



http://www.putinbayphotos.com/modboats/modboats.html

Mark.
¨

Thanks for the sugestion and the pic. A laker class is exactly what I'm going to do since the Sylvan model in one. Would you happen to know the issue number there thow articles are in?

 

That is one beautiful boat.

 

Magnus

Unless otherwise mentioned it's HO and about the 50's. Magnus
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Posted by Paul W. Beverung on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:49 PM

Hi again: Doug the practice of using a sailing vessel for a barge or more correctly a consort for a steamer was very common on the lakes in the early years up to about the 30's. They were usually left with short masts so they could be sailed if needed in an emergency. There were also steel barges built for the steamers to tow. Many times owners would order a steamer and a barge at the same time. Later as the steamers got larger the economics of towing a barge was not so the the practice was profitable. Towing a barge also slowed the boat down. Of course the tug boat owners liked the deal as they could make some money docking the unpowered barge.

 

Paul The Duluth, Superior, & Southeastern " The Superior Route " WETSU
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Posted by marknewton on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:44 PM
Magnus, the Laker articles are in the June, July, August, and October, 1998 issues of MM.

Good luck with your project,

Mark.
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Posted by BATMAN on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 9:58 PM
I have seen old photo's of dump trucks dumping coal onto barges for harbour refuelling. I wonder what kind of Coal/rail operations could be incorporated to a harbour scene. Maybe hoppers and a conveyer to the barge?

Brent

Brent

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:45 PM

Many moons ago, MR featured a 1:64 (S scale) layout, one feature of which was a side-dump hopper unloader that tilted hoppers with live carloads of coal into a quayside barge.  The gadget unloaded one car at a time, and was a lot smaller than the roller coaster rotaries seen in tidewater Virginia.

I don't know if the design was freelance, or a model of an actual prototype.  It did look real, and apparently functioned well.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by g. gage on Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:02 AM

Mangus, I was in the US Coast Guard during the 50's & 60's  and am a maritine hobbyest. I sailed the N. Atlantic out of NYC. The ship I was on was built in 1936 and was an oil fired steamship driven by two steam turbines. In San Francisco I boarded many cargo ships and never saw a coal burning ship or a coaling station. Most oceantic frieghters built during WWI were oil fired. This included the Three Islanders, and Lakers. By WWII all American steamships were oil fired, including Liberty, C1, C2, C3 and Victory. I think the Laker would be a good choice, they were around 250' long. The others listed were 400' to 450' long. Also an intresting note; every country engaged in WWII had Lakers.

Rob

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Posted by Lillen on Thursday, July 24, 2008 6:59 AM

 marknewton wrote:
Magnus, the Laker articles are in the June, July, August, and October, 1998 issues of MM.

Good luck with your project,

Mark.

 

Thanks Mark.

 

I will post some pictures when I get their. Still some months ahead. I plan to buld the ships this winther.

 

Magnus

Unless otherwise mentioned it's HO and about the 50's. Magnus

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