leejax01 wrote:With the "Quieting Athearns" thread going strong on it's second page and with some strongly worded replies about the present RTR motor, I hope that Athearn/Horizon delivers on the rumored new motor for the RTR series.
Rumored new motor, huh? I wonder if it will be an upgraded gold motor, or just a totally brand new one (if the rumor is true)?
Some of that new RTR stuff is looking so good you'd think it was Genesis or Atlas. And I think the Genesis line is starting to pass the level of detail found on Atlas products.
_________________________________________________________________
Point understood Brakie,
Problem is that once word gets out of an annoying defect with a product, that product's reputation is damaged, temporarily or long term. Yes, Athearn made improvements regarding the warped trucks issue, however, we didn't see it mentioned on the Horizon website. Was it mentioned in any Model Railroader magazines? IMHO, Athearn should have immedietly put out the "word" in the magazines, website, and even on a few of the major forums that this issue was being addressed. (Though I'm not a fan, I have to give MTH credit for taking advantage and putting product info on forums as well)
I'm not Athearn bashing as I"ve stated that I am buying their products again. But as with my wife's cousin, who pays cold cash$$ for his purchases, he was adamant about not wanting to shell out money for a Genesis locomotive again and is sticking with P2K, Atlas, and Kato.
I'll eventually take my Gen SD45-2 and Gen FP45 over to his house and run those units on his layout and let him judge for himself.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
leejax01 wrote:When you say "warped truck", do you mean that the wheels don't all sit flat on the rails or on a flat surface?
I could very well be wrong, but I believe that the sideframes were warped. From what I heard Athearn was really good about replacing those at no cost.
Absolutly!
The SP SD45's sold out after a month, same with the Rio Grande SD40T-2's. I pre-order anything I dont' want to miss out on from Athearn. A lot of items fly off the shelves and don't last long at all.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 wrote: Don Gibson wrote: Genesis is Athearn's top-of-the-line, to sell just below others best porducts.RTR is MIX of updated older products, and new tooling.Unfortunately Athearn's quest for pricing has been at the expense of 'Quality Control'. (Some do, some don't). I have 2 (out of 8) Genesis with motor replacements, and 1 (of 3) with warped trucks. and 2 RTR CF-7's that run flawlessly.Go figure.Athearns' issue has ALWAYS been quality control. They have gotten gradually better at it but they aren't up to Atlas or KATO or even Proto 2000 in that department. Athearn really needs to make a slogan like Ford did years ago when Honda, Toyota and Nissan were kicking their but: Quality is Job #1. Oh wait, the Japanese auto manufacturers are still kicking Fords butt. But from what I hear, Toyota is slipping. Camry is no longer the reliability leader and my co-worker just called in to the office broken down on the hightway in his brand new Toyota Prius.Until they get a 'handle' on QC, I wont be buying more. Old BB engines with NWSL wheels and Mashima motors equal my Stewart's @ half the price.I suspect you must be able avoid Athearn and don't need things exclusively made by them like tunnel motors or Thrall gons, etc. I need those and can't tell Athearn to "take a hike".
Don Gibson wrote: Genesis is Athearn's top-of-the-line, to sell just below others best porducts.RTR is MIX of updated older products, and new tooling.Unfortunately Athearn's quest for pricing has been at the expense of 'Quality Control'. (Some do, some don't). I have 2 (out of 8) Genesis with motor replacements, and 1 (of 3) with warped trucks. and 2 RTR CF-7's that run flawlessly.Go figure.
Genesis is Athearn's top-of-the-line, to sell just below others best porducts.
RTR is MIX of updated older products, and new tooling.
Unfortunately Athearn's quest for pricing has been at the expense of 'Quality Control'. (Some do, some don't). I have 2 (out of 8) Genesis with motor replacements, and 1 (of 3) with warped trucks. and 2 RTR CF-7's that run flawlessly.Go figure.
Athearns' issue has ALWAYS been quality control. They have gotten gradually better at it but they aren't up to Atlas or KATO or even Proto 2000 in that department. Athearn really needs to make a slogan like Ford did years ago when Honda, Toyota and Nissan were kicking their but: Quality is Job #1. Oh wait, the Japanese auto manufacturers are still kicking Fords butt. But from what I hear, Toyota is slipping. Camry is no longer the reliability leader and my co-worker just called in to the office broken down on the hightway in his brand new Toyota Prius.
Until they get a 'handle' on QC, I wont be buying more. Old BB engines with NWSL wheels and Mashima motors equal my Stewart's @ half the price.
I suspect you must be able avoid Athearn and don't need things exclusively made by them like tunnel motors or Thrall gons, etc. I need those and can't tell Athearn to "take a hike".
Not to mention the fact some runs sell out quickly! Here today sold out tomorrow!
Then how about those sweet looking tank cars such as the Ethanol and the 16K? Then how can we overlook the SD45-2s,the new SD45s,the upgrade SD40-2s etc? Let's not forget Athearn is adding many road specific details and correct length low hoods..
Need a N&W HH SD45? How about a NS HH SD40-2?
Athearn is cranking out sweet looking locomotives and cars at very affordable prices.Even Atlas had to introduce the Trainman Line.As far as P2K those remain overprice for the detail errors IF what the diesel gurus say holds true.We all know Katos great interest in HO..
Let's face the cold facts..The 2 most aggressive manufacturers is Atlas and Athearn as their monthly news releases shows.
RG,
Interesting that you mentioned warped trucks. On previous threads I mentioned my wife's cousin who purchased 2 Genesis SD75Ms a couple of years ago (2005, I think). He was livid about the warped trucks, especially since he paid $100+ cash for each one. Though I was critical of Athearn's QC then, my thought was that this was likely an isolated or uncommon incident. Apparently it wasn't.
However, to be fair to Athearn, I'm certain (o.k, hoping ) that the owners/managers received an earful from unhappy customers and have been making hard efforts to ensure improved product quality from the Chinese manufacturer.
As I've stated, my SD45-2 runs very smoothly and I'd like to think that this will be the rule rather than the "occasional exception" with the majority of Genesis units produced today.
With the "Quieting Athearns" thread going strong on it's second page and with some strongly worded replies about the present RTR motor, I hope that Athearn/Horizon delivers on the rumored new motor for the RTR series. It could be as simple as only making Genesis motors and installing them in all locos with the factory modifications. A newer design output shaft like the older BB/Atlas design will work well as it allows for a larger range of installation tha the new hex/flywheel design. I hope it does come, but with the last re-tooling come and gone, we will see. If that does happen, that will boost RTR sales for sure.
Take a look on the Horizon site and some Atlas and Bachmann stuff shows up...interesting to see how that will play out in the future.
Lee,
Apologies for not responding to one of your primary questions to me.
Quote from Leejax "Antonio, do you believe that Horizon's backing is a main reason which is causing Athearn to crank out new merchandise? They have quite an ambitious list of locos delivered and scheduled for delivery."
After the initial acquistion, I was thinking that Athearn could potentially slide "downhill" since Horizon didn't seem to be as familiar with the "scale" model railroad market as Walthers was. But it does appear that Horizon/Athearn definetly want to be successful and the fruits of their efforts are paying off. As I've stated, I eat humble pie when I now look at my new Genesis FP45.
An interesting point was mentioned earlier that I had not considered. Horizon's entrenched financial ties with MRC now makes sense as to why we have MRC sound decoders in Athearn Genesis units. From a bean-counter's point of view it was the only logical choice. However, I certainly hope that on MRC's end they're investing into the required R&D in an effort to improve the quality of their sound decoders; especially on some of the mentioned issues of motor control.
IMHO, MRC didn't strongly consider the potential of sound in HO after BLI hit the scene, initially. As a result QSI, LokSound, Soundtraxx, and now Digitrax are above MRC in the DCC/Sound food chain
riogrande5761 wrote: AntonioFP45 wrote: RioGrande, You just stated that you want a "cool and realistic looking model railroad........"You're still a "real modeler". Yes! I just had to say that because the crowd who thinks you aren't a real modeler unless you paint and build things from scratch etc. I've built enough kits in my 49 years that I don't find that particularly fun anymore. Doesn't mean I won't build a few more but I'm pretty happy with the RTR offerings these days. I'm plenty happy to model a railroad rather then be a train modeler.
AntonioFP45 wrote: RioGrande, You just stated that you want a "cool and realistic looking model railroad........"You're still a "real modeler".
You just stated that you want a "cool and realistic looking model railroad........"
You're still a "real modeler".
Yes! I just had to say that because the crowd who thinks you aren't a real modeler unless you paint and build things from scratch etc. I've built enough kits in my 49 years that I don't find that particularly fun anymore. Doesn't mean I won't build a few more but I'm pretty happy with the RTR offerings these days. I'm plenty happy to model a railroad rather then be a train modeler.
I guess I'm not a rootin'tootin' rip roaring real modeler either since I perfer RTR...
RioGrande,
davidmbedard wrote: Forget? I never knew Kaslo made an FP7. What is it, a cast resin shell that we have to paint? I think I'll stick with the Intermountain product. I though Kaslo was doing the SDFP40H (correct me if I got that mouthful wrong).Yes, it is a resin shell that requires some modeling to complete. I though that modeling is still part of Model Railroading....well....I guess it is for fewer and fewer of us...David B
Forget? I never knew Kaslo made an FP7. What is it, a cast resin shell that we have to paint? I think I'll stick with the Intermountain product. I though Kaslo was doing the SDFP40H (correct me if I got that mouthful wrong).
Yes, it is a resin shell that requires some modeling to complete. I though that modeling is still part of Model Railroading....well....I guess it is for fewer and fewer of us...
David B
Nah, I'm not a "real modeler". Never was. I was raised in the 1970's when that was going out of style and we had Athearn shake in the box kits which didn't really require modeling.
Modeling is dying breed my friend. But my goal was never to be a modeler, but rather to have a very cool and hopefully realistic looking model railroad when I am a real person with a house again someday.
AntonioFP45 wrote: JCampbell,I'm glad that you started this thread. I have to disagree with Jasperofzeal's above comment. Waste of time? O.K, perhaps to Jasper.
JCampbell,
I'm glad that you started this thread. I have to disagree with Jasperofzeal's above comment. Waste of time? O.K, perhaps to Jasper.
I don't necessarily think it was a total waste of time, but when the thread spirals into little personal jabs, it ruins it for me. I stop reading because I get tired of sorting through the little personal conflicts.
It just gets frustrating.
~ Jason
leejax01 wrote:Do you already have all the BLI cars? I am short a few, but they're not the baggage nor observation, so I am in descent shape. I have a dilemma as Genesis,P2K and Intermountain all sell the motive power, but I still need to figure out which one to go with. If I do go Athearn it will be easy as the lhs has 2 sets of F3's and 1 F7, but with Loksound hopefully.
I actually have 15 BLI CZ cars. Initially I bought seven of the Rio Grande Zephyr CZ cars: 3 domes, diner, dome-lounge, flat top coach (converted from 16 section sleeper) and dome-obs. Then I added 8 more cars which were a mix of WP/CB&Q cars to fill out a standard CZ which is roughly a 3rd of each. You can still buy a lot of the CZ cars on fleabay but yes, the dome-obs are now rare. Seems BLI didn't make enough of those. Supposedly BLI is suppose to make more CZ cars but they are probably waiting for market demand to return.
As for motive power, it depends on whether you want to buy F units that match the prototype or do a little "freelancing". The new Proto 2000 F units represent freight only F units but they are gorgeous. I just got my 1st F7AB set last week and have a 2nd on order. The Intermountain F7's in 4-stripe would be a "freelance choice" since F7's in 4-stripe paint probably never pulled the CZ. I have never seen a photo of that and during 4-stripe paint, the CZ was exclusively pulled by the PA's and F3's.
IMHO your "prototypical choices are:
1949-1951: Broadway Ltd, Genesis and Stewart all made black with yellow stripe F3's.
1951-1961: Genesis F3's in 4-stripe. (I am not aware of any other make of F3 4-stripe paint)/
1961-1965: Genesis F3's in single stripe (lovely!)
1966-1970: Genesis F7's or F9's or mix of both are prototypical in single stripe.
Road numbers for the F3's: #5521-5524, 5531-5534, 5541-5544 (all were used on the CZ).
Road numbers for pasenger F7's: #5551-5554, 5561-5564, 5571-5574, and 5761, 5764.
Road numbers for F9's: #5771-5774, and B units only #5762, 5764
Any of those F7's and F9's were used after the retirement of the F3's at the end of 1965. The odd freight F7A may have pulled the CZ here or there but rare. The F7 and F9 sets above all had steam generators in the B units, which is why they are all "passenger" F sets. F7A's #5571 and 5574 were delivered with steam generators in them as well (just like the Athearn Globe F7A shell!) but after wrecks in the early 1950's, they returned from rebuilding without steam generators.
Some latter day Rio Grande motive power trivia. Half of the Rio Grande F9's were wrecked and off the roster by the end of 1968 (F9A #5774, and F9B's 5772 and 5773). Most often seen in photographs pulling the CZ are F7A's #5761 and 5764. (Genesis is offering #5764 in Sept, it is a phase II F7A with all the trimmings). F9A 5771 was also prime power for the CZ, along with F7A's #5571 and 5574.
F7#5571 was a wreck rebuild (1953) and looks like an F9A from the side but an F7A on the roof (ie 36-inch axial DB fan). F7A #5574 was a standard phase I F7A which had the roof fans replaced with the tall F3 style, probably spare parts leftover after the F3's were retired. Both are interesting and unusual diesels.
Also of interest is that probalby several of the phase I F7B units from the #5551, 5561 and 5571 series had the upper air grills replaced with the FARR style to match the phase II F7's and F9's. If you look at 1969 F unit sets, often with 3 or 4 B units sandwiched, they ALL have the same style grills. Yet only the F9B units were the only B units that had steam generators and FARR air grills from the factory. So the only explanation is the phase I B units had the air grills replace during the last few years to match the diesel MU consists. This is pretty cool!
I think the ultimate would be to model some of these uncommon diesels and run them! It would require say, taking the P2K F7B units and replacing the air grills for example, so you would have an F7B phase I looking down on the roof, but it would appear to be a phase II from the sides.
Well, I'm going to jump in and then jump out. Got the 10-car BLI CZ a couple of years ago, needed something to pull it, and since I am NOT a Diseasel fan (my WWII-Korean period Rio Grande is 99% steam), I settled on a Genesis F-3 A/B set in four-stripe, which fit my general period (F-3's in black and yellow would have been closer, but what the heck). The Genesis set is strictly DC, no sound, and I couldn't be happier. I think the locos are very well detailed, but more importantly, they're quiet, powerful (I have long stretches of 2 and 2.4% grades) and very smooth running.
Frankly, I'd rather run my CZ with my Rio Grande Key brass 1800 M-67 4-8-4, but Rio Grande never did, so I'll be at least a LITTLE prototypical. I'll keep my 1800 for my 1949 "Royal Gorge". But I sure like those Genesis locos. Two years and absolutely NO trouble with them.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
leejax,
I too am building a California Zephyr, mainly for 1965 (pulled by the Genesis F3ABBA set #5541-5544 and also with the post 1965 F units including F7A #5764 (due in Sept) and 5571, 5562, 5563 - offered 3 or 4 years ago by Genesis. The new F7 phase II units will be really nice with the extra late version details. They should look lovely pulling the BLI CZ cars! I'm even going to stick a couple of the Walthers 52 seat Pullman Standard coaches at the head end, as Rio Grande sometimes did in the late 1960's!
davidmbedard wrote: riogrande5761 wrote: The competition now is sweet, especially in the "F-unit" arena! The Genesis, BLI,Walthers, and reportedly Stewart, F units are beautiful smooth runners. LOL, and don't forget Intermountain Regal line in the line up of F units. Many do forget one of the best quality F unit lines, including myself. I never bought one mainly because Intermountain still hasn't offered much beyond the Rio Grande 4-stripe paint scheme which has already been well covered by Stewart and Genesis.I now have F units from Stewart, Genesis and Proto 2000 (just received my first P2k). Eventually I will add an Intermountain because they are the only maker of a modern tooled FP7. Stewarts are probably still the top brand for best chassis.Lets not forget Kaslo products.David B
riogrande5761 wrote: The competition now is sweet, especially in the "F-unit" arena! The Genesis, BLI,Walthers, and reportedly Stewart, F units are beautiful smooth runners. LOL, and don't forget Intermountain Regal line in the line up of F units. Many do forget one of the best quality F unit lines, including myself. I never bought one mainly because Intermountain still hasn't offered much beyond the Rio Grande 4-stripe paint scheme which has already been well covered by Stewart and Genesis.I now have F units from Stewart, Genesis and Proto 2000 (just received my first P2k). Eventually I will add an Intermountain because they are the only maker of a modern tooled FP7. Stewarts are probably still the top brand for best chassis.
The competition now is sweet, especially in the "F-unit" arena! The Genesis, BLI,Walthers, and reportedly Stewart, F units are beautiful smooth runners.
LOL, and don't forget Intermountain Regal line in the line up of F units. Many do forget one of the best quality F unit lines, including myself. I never bought one mainly because Intermountain still hasn't offered much beyond the Rio Grande 4-stripe paint scheme which has already been well covered by Stewart and Genesis.
I now have F units from Stewart, Genesis and Proto 2000 (just received my first P2k). Eventually I will add an Intermountain because they are the only maker of a modern tooled FP7. Stewarts are probably still the top brand for best chassis.
Lets not forget Kaslo products.
I am glad that you mentioned the Intermountain Regal Line as I am building a Zepher train and was leaning to Rio Grande for motive power. I did call Intermountain and was told that they used a specially designed QSI decoder? Not 100% sure as it was awhile ago. I saw an F7 Rio Grande next to a Genesis F7 Rio Grande, I a admit that the Genesis was better detailed. That is never an issue with any F-series loco as Highliner did an excellent job with the shells and Genesis was smart to get them. I for got to ask about the Regals drive and sound quality. What is your overall take on it or should I just buy Genesis and install Loksound?
Antonio, do you believe that Horizon's backing is a main reason which is causing Athearn to crank out new merchandise? They have quite an ambitious list of locos delivered and scheduled for delivery. In a different light, I used to race rc cars/trucks what seemed like a lifetime ago. A company named Team Losi was highly regarded and when Horizon bought them out, alot of people cried foul. Well anyways, years later the Losi releases are as competitive and well designed as before...if not more. So hopefully the same can be said with the Athearn deal. I also see some Bachmann and Atlas merchandise on the Horizon Hobby website and in Hobbytown USA stores which can even special order Atlas locos FYI, so who really knows how it will all end up. One thing for sure is that Horizon is investing heavily in model trains, so I expect some more aquisitions. Also my theory on the MRC/Athearn deal is that I believe Horizon is heavy on MRC products(many items listed on their website) and they must get quite a good price on the decoders and install them in their locos, keeping it all in house, which lowers overhead and raises the profit margin. The only set back with a quantity/numbers generated business plan is that at times quality is compromised and we all know that quality is a major factor in model trains. All was said IMHO.
I am going to throw this out there, I may get blasted, but let's see how it lands, but IMHO T55 should team up with Horizon so that they can crank out the ACe's and Gevos that they can't produce due to financial issues as I believe that they are the only one with enough capital to bail/buy out a struggling company with a good product. Horizon is making money in other areas of hobbies and could fathom the restructuring of the train market by buying struggling companies or those willing to sell and thus obtaining a larger market share through pre-approved brand aquisitions. That is the same plan that Walmart and other business giants use to "corner the market" per say and eventually influence it.
J Campbell wrote: jasperofzeal wrote: I always find these "so and so vs so and so" threads to be a waste of time since all that usually comes up are biased opinions. Yeah...I'm picking up on that. I guess as it stands, it's a bit of a loaded question. However, the way some of these cats are spouting off, you'd think somebody insulted their wife. Thanks for the...help.
jasperofzeal wrote: I always find these "so and so vs so and so" threads to be a waste of time since all that usually comes up are biased opinions.
Yeah...I'm picking up on that. I guess as it stands, it's a bit of a loaded question. However, the way some of these cats are spouting off, you'd think somebody insulted their wife.
Thanks for the...help.
For example, the post from Leejax01 contained helpful info that I found very useful, especially regarding the electrical pickups as that was one of the issues I had regarding Athearns. Look at the info I highlighted. May be of value to someone checking this thread.
No disrespect to Jasper, but it's very easy to skip over a thread that is perceived as a waste-of-time
High Greens
The funny thing is that retooled RTR locos now run in the 70-80 dollar range...as you referred to a modern widecab, I referred to the RTR ac4400cw's selling for 74.99-89.99. Honestly,they are priced as well as others and that without working ditchlights on the RTR's. RTR is good, but Genesis is better. I have Atlas,RTR,Genesis,Kato,BLI,T55,P2K and I honestly would only buy RTR if no other manufacturer makes that type loco. I would rather buy a discounted Atlas on Ebay or wherever than a RTR loco.
In RTR defense, they also re-wired the electric pick ups from that bent bar to copper frames on both sides of the trucks.
leejax01 wrote: Antonio, I am glad that you chimed in as I was reading your post: http://cs.trains.com/forums/459607/ShowPost.aspx How do you see things now as compared to then? I was reading it and some issues I still see today in QC(at that time different locos were discussed) and was the Horizon deal a positive one for Athearn?
Antonio, I am glad that you chimed in as I was reading your post:
http://cs.trains.com/forums/459607/ShowPost.aspx
How do you see things now as compared to then? I was reading it and some issues I still see today in QC(at that time different locos were discussed) and was the Horizon deal a positive one for Athearn?
Wow! Talk about a kick down memory lane. Seems that I helped to stir up a bit of a ruckus then!
Thanks Lee, I had forgotten all about that thread! I"m glad that "overall" things have improve for Athearn since then. Though, as has been pointed out, Athearn still has had issues with their drives in some units. I realize that there is more than one type of drive system in Athearns and I often have to ask which line uses which drive during which year.
I'm glad to see that Athearn (Horizon?) is much more aggressive with market advertising than they were just 3 years ago. Win-win for them and us.
The competition now is sweet, especially in the "F-unit" arena! The Genesis, BLI,Walthers, and reportedly Stewart, F units are beautiful smooth runners. As I stated before, I was very impressed with my Gensis SD45-2 and would not mind owning another one.
I did find something interesting. Back in 04-05 I had been told (via email) by Athearn's rep that they had no plans to produce F45/FP45 cowl units in the Genesis version. However, strong rumors were circulating that KATO was considering producing them. Did this help influence Athearn to have a change of heart? I don't know, but I'm certainly not complaining
On the issue of sound........I certainly hope that MRC improves their decoders. I continue to read of issues of smooth motor control and synthesized sounds. So at least for now, any Athearn units I purchase in the future will be "non-sound" units. It would have been sweet if Athearn could have teamed up with QSI, LokSound, or Digitrax for sound.
Wow, didn't realize the debate over the cowls was still raging on.
O.K, months back my LHS's owner, Kevin, informed his customers that Athearn had some type of problem with the F45/FP45 cowls, so Athearn sent a big batch of them back to the manufacturer to correct the problem.
Stands to reason that perhaps a number of units may have slipped through the cracks. But in any case I'm not going to hammer Athearn as they've been really trying to deliver on their promises.
So far in checking over my new FP45, she's a real beauty. I hope to get another one later this year, #105, if possible. Thanks to previous posters, I will handle it with "TLC". If I should come across a "minor" defect that I can correct myself then I'll fix it. The only part I'm changing on it is the 5 chime horn, which I'm replacing with a Leslie 3 chimer. Decoder will likely be a Lok Sound unit, though I would like to try the QSI unit if it finally becomes available.
Unless there is a drastic improvement in motor control and sound accuracy.......I don't want any MRC sound decoders in any of my locomotives.
This is the horn sound that I want to load up to it. It's either a Leslie S3-K or S3B-J (hard to tell apart, earwise)
http://www.rail-videos.net/video/view.php?id=712
As I've heard often, minor defects, bent or missing parts have not been uncommon to brand new HO brass locomotives since the 80s, so I'm not too surprised or shocked when this happens to plastic units.
That's the price we pay. For years we've demanded more precision drives and ultra-accuirate detailing (I'm guilty too). So as with many new automobiles........there are more "delicate" things that can break or become defective.
Peace
I hope to get sound into 107.