While some 3-rail trains do fall into the "Toy Train" category, there are some very impressive models, that the only detail they are lacking is the "proto-typical" number of rails that they run on. Here is just a sample of some of the Beauties available in 3-Rail Scale size trains.
Click pics to enlarge
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Some More
Sorry about this one being a bit over-exposed, I'm still getting used to digital cameras,
Again Click pics to enlarge
I don't want You Loggers out there to feel left out, here is a Shay for You guys.
Click on pics to enlarge
This gives a Good comparison, Very similar locomotives, same road names and #s the O Scale is a Lionel, and the HO is a Bachmann Spectrum.
Scale (or close to it) on center-rail track used to be called Hi-Rail. Maybe we should push to revitalize that usage.
Of course, Marklin HO has always been center rail - but, with stud contacts, it isn't as obvious.
If those gorgeous hi-rail locos have long pickup shoes, not Lionel-style rollers, they, too, could operate on stud contacts and eliminate the center rail.
My personal heartburn isn't with the rolling stock. It's the appearance of the track itself. Isn't that why GarGraves 'de-emphasizes' the center rail? OTOH, having both running rails the same polarity simplifies the installation of track detection by a factor of ridiculous.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Hi Chuck,
Yes, the term Hi-Rail is still very much in use. I haven't built a permanent home layout yet, still operating on the Christmas Tree Carpet & Western. The FEF-3s had some confusion about their minimum radius requirements, catalog said O-72, the box said O-54 and a member on the CTT forum was running his on O-27 profile O-54 curves without any trouble. The Christmas Tree sub-division of the CTC&W was built with MTH Realtrax O-54 specifically for the FEF-3s. Guess What, no go, so I will have to build a new platform for this years CTC&W Tree sub-div. But being forced to rebuild with O-72 curves, made me bite the bullet and buy that AC-9 that I had drooled over but wanted to avoid those real estate gobbling O-72 curves.
The outside rails being common simplifies a LOT of issues by a factor of rediculous, Wye's, reverse Loops, Grade crossing and track signals? SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE. And the sheer mass of these things is almost (maybe IS) Addictive.
The 2007 Christmas Tree sub-division of the CTC&W, click pics to enlarge
I ran out of time before Christmas, and didn't get beyond the plywood turf stage on the scenery.
Some more Favorites from the roster of the CTC&W.
Here is another nice O/HO comparison, this time Both models by Lionel, same road#s , a couple of my Favorites.
Doug & Chuck,
I'm going to show my 3-rail naivity here. Has any manufacturer ever contemplated "hiding" the 3rd rail so that it isn't so obvious? Is there something that makes contact with the middle or 3rd rail that would prevent it from being run in a slot on the underside of the ties so that it's less noticeable? If it could be, it would then be possible to completely cover it over with ballast.
My guess is that it somehow can't. Otherwise, someone would have already done it. I thought I'd ask anyhow.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage wrote: Doug & Chuck,I'm going to show my 3-rail naivity here. Has any manufacturer ever contemplated "hiding" the 3rd rail so that it isn't so obvious? Is there something that makes contact with the middle or 3rd rail that would prevent it from being run in a slot on the underside of the ties so that it's less noticeable? If it could be, it would then be possible to completely cover it over with ballast.My guess is that it somehow can't. Otherwise, someone would have already done it. I thought I'd ask anyhow.Tom
'Morning, Tom.
The center rail is contacted either by a sliding shoe or a spring-loaded roller, so it has to be up on top where the contact gadget can reach it. Stud contacts replace the center rail with a line of conductive pins, one per tie. The sliding shoe can bridge these, but the little roller has to have a solid rail.
Some 'wireless streetcars' ran with a shoe that passed through a narrow slot in the street and contacted a subterranean third rail. The problem is, you have to have a specific spot with no pavement (or other impedimentia) between the rails - which will be the ONLY place where the powered or lighted rolling stock can be placed on or removed from the rails. With streetcars, it was the inspection pit in the car barn. For a model Big Boy with three shoes - ??? Also, I don't know if a model right-of-way that looks like a slot car track could be considered an improvement.
Hi Tom,
Some manufacturers "Blacken" the center rail, maybe that is how Gargraves de-emphasizes it as Chuck mentions, I am not familiar with Gargraves beyond recognizing their name as a track mfgr. In 3-rail, the trains run on AC power, with the center "Third" rail being the "HOT" rail, and the two outside rails being common ground. So there does need to be contact with the third rail, in O-Gauge that is usually by means of multiple center rollers. The reason that Joshua Lionel Cowen went to 3-rail back in 1906, is so that a Kid could take a pile of track, and "Do no Wrong" electrically. Reverse loops and Wye's don't create shorts because the center "HOT" rail is ALWAYS the center rail regardless of how the track might be configured.
With the two outside rails being a common ground, all kinds of things such as track detection as Chuck mentioned, as well as crossing and track signals are simplified as Chuck mentioned, by a factor of ridiculous. The train doesn't care which rail it grounds through, so by insulating ONE outside rail, You can wire your detection, signals or other function "Hot" then ground through the insulated rail, placing your insulated rail joiners at the points that you desire the detection function to work at, the wheels and axles on 3-rail equipment are not insulated and will shunt the ground through the wheel sets, acting as a toggle switch to turn your function on as the train enters the insulated zone, and off again as it leaves it.
With a blackened center rail on a nicely detailed "Hi-rail" layout the eye/mind will ignore the center rail, much the way that it knows but ignores the fact that any layout is so far out of scale where distances are concerned. For example, I am a member of a large HO club here in Portland,OR our layout room is 4200 square feet at 60x70, a size that most can only DREAM about having to work with. We model the Columbia River Gorge from Portland to Wishram,WA a distance of almost 100 miles, but in scale terms that 100 miles is compressed into just over one SCALE square mile. Mentally You would know that discrepancy, but would still appreciate the art of the layout anyway. This Hobby is a Hobby of Balances and Compromises, what You Compromise, and how it is balanced varies from layout to layout, but almost all have Balances and Compromises. For ME(and many others), the Benefits of the third rail FAR outweigh it's admitted compromise.
jerryl wrote: I know that some of the more accurate models are available in either 2 or 3 rail. I really have triuble with that third rail. my mind just equates everything that runs on it with my old Lionel " toy" trains. Yes, the third rail along with the high rails & the small radius curves says toy to me....Sorry.
I suspect even the fussiest scale model railroader would be happy to have a Lionel 700E scale Hudson from the 1930s in his collection -- if you can get one in good condition. The scale 0-6-0 from the 1940s is also a nice model.
When you see a really nice Lionel layout with scenery and good buildings and smooth curves that uses only the scale-quality equipment and sound (an excellent example here in the Milwaukee area is Kalmbach staffer Kent Johnson's) you hardly notice the middle rail.
Dave Nelson
Hi Doug
I gots some bad news for ya...
there
all
toys...
just
very
expensive
...love the pics.
Have fun with your trains
I wonder if the centre rail, aside from being blackened, and then hidden that much more with good weathering (like the oil streak down the middle of the ballast) could also be reduced in profile by maybe 25%. It would really help.
A local Hi-Rail modeller has some very nice (and very expensive) engines made of brass. They would compare nicely with their HO counterparts.
That 'Hi-Rail' AC-9 just FLOORED me! Talk about one beautiful model! Now if we could get one in HO that ISN'T either an old Akane or newer really expensive brass--ah, dream away, baby.
Those are beautiful models. Just beautiful.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Sorry, I just can't accept the look of a third rail on a model railroad unless one is modeling dual gauge or a cog railway. I'll admit, however, modeling a working track switch for a cog railway would be difficult, particular if modeling the Locher rack system (look up "rack railway" in Wikidpedia for an explanation of that system) as used on Mt. Pilatus, Switzerland because the turnouts rotate as pictured below.
Mark
ndbprr wrote:I hate to tell you this but ALL model trains are toy trains - even the scale ones.
A lot of people consider the better brass models to be "works of art."
Chuck and Doug,
Thanks for the explanations. I sorta thought that might be the issue.
What ever happened to Lionel's "Super O" track? Back when I was a kid (and dinosaurs roamed the land) we had O27, O and then Lionel came out with Super O. Unlike their standard sectional track with 3 metal ties per section, Super O had brown plastic ties, much more prototypically sized and spaced. The ties were not flat, but rather humped up in the center, and the center "rail" was much smaller and narrower, since it didn't have to accept flanges.
Super O was much more expensive even than standard Lionel O-gauge track, but it really looked a lot better. Besides the ties, the center rail was much less obvious.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I was going to ignore this thread, BUT, I just HAVE to chime in with my .002 (tax exempt).
Atlas' 21st century 3 rail track has a chemically blackened center rail, HOWEVER, it's still very visable.
GarGraves is a traditional style hi-rail track, (read tubular steel) that, although better than traditional track, is still a bit on the obnoxious side.
As for Lionel's Super O, it was a victim of the decline in the 3 rail side of the 1960s. The center rail is more of a blade, than an actual rail, and was far less visable.
Being a 2 rail O scaler, I'm forever being asked "where's the center rail?"
MB
There is still a dedicated group of Super O track users - they get together in their Yahoo group. Some of them even recurve the track to get larger radius curves.
Apparently, the tooling for Super O track were destroyed (probably accidently) at some point in the early '70s. There have been calls for Lionel to revive Super O from time to time. But with the development of Lionel's FasTrack system, it will probably never happen. Although FasTrack isn't quite as good looking to my eye, it does have built in roadbed and reliable fastening of sections, and is much better suited for carpet and floor layouts.
Atlas's 3 Rail O track system (includes flex track!), Super O, FasTrack, MTH Scaletrax, and Gargraves/Ross (the latter considered the ultimate by many) have all been the basis for some fine looking high rail layouts.
Personally, I prefer the "toy" aspects of 3 rail O. The operating accessories and cars are what bring the kid out in me. Seeing the man hurl the milk cans onto the platform, or watching the cows parade through the "stockyard" is a special treat the scale boys don't have. The electrical engineers in my office spent lunch hours watching and trying to understand how/why the barrels vibrated up the ramp of the barrel loader instead of down on my Christmas display layout. And the rotating radar antenna on the car drew its share of attention.
When I want scale fidelity, I return to my HOn/HOn3 world. Or, for having my cake and eat it too, I added an On30 loop on the Lionel layout. Model railroading is just plain fun, especially if you are a rubber gauger.
Fred W
Okay, I deserved to get called on the carpet about ALL model trains being toys, as I have kidded a member at our HO club about that very topic, the title was meant in the tin-plate context, but Touche', you guys got me on that.
I did expect to get some comments from those who can't get past the third rail, again almost every model has some compromise, that AC-9 does have prototypical articulation, with the rear engine set rigid to the frame, which is unusual in HO until you get into Brass (the Mantua Logging 2-6-6-2s being a notable exception)
I also expected that there would also be those who would appreciate these models, and those are who the thread was intended.
twhite, I thought that it was you who has the Special Affinity for Yellowstones, so I did figure that you would be in the admiring side of the discussion
tstage, something that chuck and I both forgot to mention about 3-rail, it is measured in DIAMETER, not RADIUS, so if you ever hear a 3-railer discussing curves an O-54 is equivalent to a 27" radius. If it is referred to as an O-anything that generally is your clue that it is a Diameter not radius measurement.
Mister Beasley, Another factor that worked against the Lionel Super O track was the thin profile, which was one of it's selling points, there was debate about whether the thin profile would wear groves into the pick up rollers. I don't know whether that particular debate was ever really resolved.
Dave Nelson, the 700E that would be so WELCOME in almost any collection regardless of scale, is the model that helped coin the term "Rivet Counter". When the 700E was released in 1937, it was the FIRST mass produced SCALE MODEL Locomotive. A modeler examined the 700E and the only discrepancy that he could find was that the number of Rivets on the tender was off by THREE. When Joshua Lionel Cowen was told of the discrepancy, he was so incensed that he demanded a recount, and the modeler was proven correct and a phrase was born.
Fred, I have seen photos of Beautiful Hi-rail layouts where operating accessories were very tastefully worked in, and it doesn't get much better than that.
I am Fortunate to be a member of a very nice, large HO club, with many wonderful members, plus getting to enjoy three rail at Home, I get the best of BOTH worlds, now I just gotta get that garage cleaned out (this sound familiar to anyone else?) and get the bench work started.
My primary modeling scale is HO, but I do enjoy my diversions into what some now refer to a Os3r (O scale three rail). I don't consider my three rail models toys, they are scale models just like my HO trains.
I still have the large couplers on my equipment, and will eventually convert over to Kadees, but when I am running a 25 to 30 car train behind some of my steam, the third rail vanishes in my mind, and I really don't notice the large couplers. I'm back in the early 1950s.
Regards,
Jerry Zeman
Hi Jerry,
Those are some Beautiful Pics, is that a 3-rail modular club layout? Where is that at? I would give the Left portion of some dangling anatomy, to have a club like that any where near Portland,OR. I am a multi-scaler too, HO at the club, 3-rail at home, but the last couple years, most of my disposable income has been disposed of on 3-rail.
Thanks for sharing the pics,
Even though I model in HO, I like O scale. I have some O and O-27 stuff on an overhead around- the- room shelf in this room. Love the sound! :)
Jarrell
Hi Doug:
The first picture was shot on a friend's three rail layout, U shaped, about 28x20.
The last three pics were shot on the Independent Hirailers Midwest Division layout. We set up each year for i-Hobby at Rosemont IL, and at Trainfest in Milwaukee.
Our web site is www.ihmd.org.
Regards
tsgtbob wrote: I was going to ignore this thread, BUT, I just HAVE to chime in with my .002 (tax exempt).
[The above is strictly offered in good fun and I hope will be taken as such]
'Shay' what?
Very impressive, some serious stuff. What would you call 'Live Steam'?
@tstage: Well, Marklin started out with a third rail but replaced that decades ago with stubs. They have modified their products a little over time, also improving the look of the stubs. Other manufacturers also produce strips with stubs that you can place underneath the rail so that the stubs barely stick out above the ties. With ballast and some good weathering they are then barely visible. Also, some people build their own third rail. Here is one way to do it, and here the result of another.
Cheers,
Harald
I am multiscaler. I have attic ceiling of O/G running on an interrail layout system 12' x22' hanging from the ceiling. Gargraves acutally makes specific track just for that system. regarding Gargraves- The O guage "phantom" black middle rail is hard to see, I usually need gloves to connect it together as its tough on my hands. I have one Sunset 3rd rail brass U.P. Big Boy- that is equal in detail to any HO or N scale model- except those blind drivers in the middle dont quite make it scale looking but many dont notice.
So yes I am a closet loop runner too !
George