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Will DC layouts go the way of VHS?

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Posted by grayfox1119 on Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:42 PM

The only thing constant in this world is "change". Some like it, some hate it, some fear it, others just deal with it. It will be interesting to see what the answer will be to this question in about 20 or 30 years when most of the old timers are in that great RR in the sky. The new crop of modelers rising up in the ranks will be from the computer generation, many will be well versed in electronics, and will want more instant gratification in their hobby/s. In 20 years we will have much smaller electronics, so fitting chips in locomotives will be a no-brainer, and battery technology or other energy cell technology will have advanced greatly, so track power will be a thing of the past......just like 8 track and VHS.

Dick If you do what you always did, you'll get what you always got!! Learn from the mistakes of others, trust me........you can't live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself, I tried !! Picture album at :http://www.railimages.com/gallery/dickjubinville Picture album at:http://community.webshots.com/user/dickj19 local weather www.weatherlink.com/user/grayfox1119
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Posted by Don Gibson on Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:25 PM

DCC and code 83 are not 'State of the Art'.

They are 'Stations' along the way to improvement, but it has to be 'affordable' to get there. VHS beat out BETA because it's format accepted poorer, slower, quality 6 hours (3 movies) - not because it was better. 

BETA had a superior mechanism and better audio, first. 'Proffesional TV stations used Beta for their on-location, (not VHS). 'U Matic' found favor for 'plug-in' commercials. 

BACK TO MODEL RR'ING:  RF control is a-waiting in the wings, as are 'fine scale' wheels and track. Enjoy what you have, when you can, & while you can afford it.

Don Gibson .............. ________ _______ I I__()____||__| ||||| I / I ((|__|----------| | |||||||||| I ______ I // o--O O O O-----o o OO-------OO ###########################
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Posted by betamax on Thursday, May 29, 2008 4:49 PM
 Midnight Railroader wrote:
 wjstix wrote:

Mac vs. PC was the same thing too.

It's exactly the same--because IBM licensed PC to anyone who wanted to make it, so everyone did, prices dropped, and now there are a lot more PCs than MACs, made by Apple, which will not license it.

JVC licensed VHS to anyone who wanted to make it, so everyone did, prices dropped, and so there were a lot more VHS than Betamax, made by Sony, which would not license it.

By the way, Betamax cassettes could hold up to five hours of material by 1976, so the adult-flim rationale falls into the category of urban legend.



Where to begin...

The IBM PC was quickly designed using off the shelf parts. Nothing special. The only thing special was the BIOS. Didn't take Compaq long to create their own reverse engineered version, thanks to all the documentation IBM published about their BIOS. IBM's big mistake was not locking down the operating system, giving Compaq access to an almost identical OS.

What makes the Mac special, as well as the C64 and Amiga, is the OS and the ROMs that drive it. Apple won't tell you much, and you couldn't beat Commodore's hardware prices, since only they made the custom chips. Apple was Commodore's biggest customer for Apple ][ CPUs.

As to Beta, you could licence it for no cost. That episode of history is so full of myths it isn't funny. Sony offered Beta to Panasonic (and JVC), and contributed their patents to a patent pool that most other Japanese companies belonged to. Panasonic contributed azimuth recording, helical scan from Toshiba, and many loading systems came from Sony.

DCC has succeeded where others have failed because it is an open system. Others often failed because their hardware was costly, and they didn't want share. DCC is defined by a central body, and allows for improvements, and manufacturers are free to incorporate the features they want, as long as they don't break the system doing it. Previous experience with closed, limited systems made people hesitant to invest as well.

Many previous attempts were technically limited, making improvement difficult, with the possibility of breaking the system. Thanks to small, low cost microprocessors, DCC relies on digital commands, and can ignore commands it can't handle. Who knows how many functions will appear in a year or two as the cost of the processors declines, making ever more powerful decoders possible.
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Posted by doctorwayne on Thursday, May 29, 2008 10:02 AM
 wjstix wrote:

With a handheld controller like Digitrax has with two control / direction controls, you can use two engines together in one yard without having to throw toggle switches or worry about one getting into the "block" that the other one is using etc. That's the point of DCC - you run the engine directly. In DCC you run the power block of track, and all the engines in the block run to the same command. With two operators, each can control an engine. In a yard situation, two switchers could be used to put together a train without having to throw toggles and keep an eye out for where their block ends. It's much more like operating the real thing than DC is.

I agree completely with the highlighted part of your statement, and that that certainly is a superior way of handling that situation.  If I had multiple operators, I wouldn't hesitate to convert my 40 or 50 locos to DCC.  However, for a lone operator, one train being worked simultaneously by two locos seems too much like the "one-armed paper hanger" scenario for me. Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg] 

 wjstix wrote:

Plus it's a lot easier to use DCC control values to get two engines to run perfectly together than it is to try to use resistors etc. to try to get them to run the same. Not to mention lighting and sound options.

Well, I don't bother with resistors or such, but any of my locos that I wish to run together do so quite capably, in almost any combination, and anywhere in the train, too.  Almost all trains run as doubleheaders (heavy trains, lots of curves, and fairly steep grades), but I've also used pushers and mid-train helpers, too.  I do like to "tweak" my locos, but that's mostly to increase their tractive effort.

As I mentioned before, light and sound capabilities are impressive in DCC, although the first time the light flickers, the illusion is shot for me.  As for sound, I find it annoying, but after almost 40 years in a steel mill, a lot of sounds are annoying. Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]  Headlight circuitry is worth about an ounce of added weight in a steam loco, and circuit boards and speakers infringe upon the space required for open coal bunkers and added tender weight for more reliable electrical contact.  And I do admit that that may be viewed as a poor trade-off by DCC users.

I suspect that serious operators and clubs will continue to benefit from the use of DCC, but that many "dabblers" in trains will lose interest in the hobby simply because the hobby will hold no challenges for them - they won't know how to build a kit, tune a loco, or actually operate their trains.  When technology can do it all for you, what's the point?  It becomes the loop around the Christmas tree, writ large. Big Smile [:D]

Wayne 

 

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Posted by loathar on Thursday, May 29, 2008 9:26 AM
 Midnight Railroader wrote:

 

 

By the way, Betamax cassettes could hold up to five hours of material by 1976, so the adult-flim rationale falls into the category of urban legend.

They only held 1 hour when they first came out. THAT is what doomed them.

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Posted by Doug T on Thursday, May 29, 2008 9:17 AM

When it comes to electronics, everything is just a new step forward. Improvements are always on the horizon. Back in the 60's we had 4 track tapes, then 8 track tapes, then cassettes and finally dvds.

I have a large G scale layout indoors and I run by myself. My layout has 32 blocks and I run DC, with a tether control (2 control panels). I have 4 locomotives with sound (8 locomotives without sound) and rarely use it. After a while the sound gets on my nerves. I have single track mainline with several passing sidings. I can put 2 trains out in the same direction at the same time.

If we ever sell our home and downsize to something smaller. I would go back to HO and run DC. It is what I know and I am comfortable with it. Thinking back over 50 plus years, I have run alone most of the time.

DCC is only another step in the move to operate trains realistically. Some will stay with DCC and others will take that next step to what is next. 

 

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Posted by Midnight Railroader on Thursday, May 29, 2008 8:32 AM
 wjstix wrote:

Mac vs. PC was the same thing too.

It's exactly the same--because IBM licensed PC to anyone who wanted to make it, so everyone did, prices dropped, and now there are a lot more PCs than MACs, made by Apple, which will not license it.

JVC licensed VHS to anyone who wanted to make it, so everyone did, prices dropped, and so there were a lot more VHS than Betamax, made by Sony, which would not license it.

By the way, Betamax cassettes could hold up to five hours of material by 1976, so the adult-flim rationale falls into the category of urban legend.

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, May 29, 2008 8:10 AM
 doctorwayne wrote:
 Paul3 wrote:

doctorwayne,
It's not easy, but yes, I have "controlled" two DCC locos/trains at one time in the yard.  Mainly, I use this ability to run the road power out to the departure yard while I'm still drilling cars on the yard lead, or to move road power of incoming trains to the engine facility while drilling cars.  It's not something that I do constantly, as it is quite difficult to split one's attention.

More often (but still rare), I run a road train while switching a yard at the same time.  With a DT400 throttle (and it's two throttle knobs) it's very simple to do so.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven


************

Well, I can run two or three trains at the same time on DC, too, but only one will actually be under control. Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]  What I'm trying to say is that a moving train with no operator devoted to it is basically out of control - my layout has speed limits, speed restrictions, etc. that demand the "engineer" pay attention - in my opinion, that also ensures that he gets the maximum enjoyment out of that moving train.  Different strokes, I suppose. Big Smile [:D]

Wayne 

With a handheld controller like Digitrax has with two control / direction controls, you can use two engines together in one yard without having to throw toggle switches or worry about one getting into the "block" that the other one is using etc. That's the point of DCC - you run the engine directly. In DCC you run the power block of track, and all the engines in the block run to the same command. With two operators, each can control an engine. In a yard situation, two switchers could be used to put together a train without having to throw toggles and keep an eye out for where their block ends. It's much more like operating the real thing than DC is.

Plus it's a lot easier to use DCC control values to get two engines to run perfectly together than it is to try to use resistors etc. to try to get them to run the same. Not to mention lighting and sound options.

Stix
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Posted by Eriediamond on Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:07 AM
 Brunton wrote:

Both DC and DCC will go the way of VHS. Here's why:

http://cs.trains.com/forums/1452043/ShowPost.aspx

My My 2 cents [2c] a nickel now (inflation). I tend to agree with Brunton here. However, one must inticipate an Al something or other (pun intended) to find some kind of radiation from such technology to contribute to goble destruction. Also it may be that if a loco with this technology should leave the rails and fall to the floor, a hazmat team must be called in for clean up. With this in mind DC will probabley still be around on the black market. Shock [:O]Laugh [(-D] Ken

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Posted by stebbycentral on Thursday, May 29, 2008 6:25 AM
I don't know when it will happen, but I do know what the tipping point will be; when DCC locomotives and controllers start showing up in most entry-level train sets.  Those two devices are the most expensive components in the conversion process.  Until that day arrives DC will be the ubiquitous technology, and DCC something that you have to upgrade to. 

I have figured out what is wrong with my brain!  On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!

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Posted by Pruitt on Thursday, May 29, 2008 6:10 AM

Both DC and DCC will go the way of VHS. Here's why:

http://cs.trains.com/forums/1452043/ShowPost.aspx

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Posted by modelmaker51 on Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:54 AM
 loathar wrote:
 Driline wrote:
 loathar wrote:

Blank VHS tapes are still readily available. Like DC locomotives will be for a long time to come.

Anynody know WHY VHS beat out Beta?Whistling [:-^]

Yes.

Although Beta was of slightly superior quality in terms of color reproduction, it was waaayy more expensive. The public voted with their wallets and it was eventually doomed. It didn't help that Sony was the only other manufacturer of the technology either.

Wrong. The adult movie industry couldn't fit a full length movie on a single Beta so they threw their support behind VHS.

Actually you're both wrong! I was a Technical Sales Representative for JVC for 15 years and here's the real story:

The original 3/4" video cassette (U-matic) was co-developed byJVC, Matsushita (Panasonic) and Sony. When Sony and JVC developed the two 1/2" video cassette systems, Sony "borrowed" the helical scan technology that JVC developed, (and patented) for the U-matic. JVC sued Sony and eventually won the exclusive rights to the helical scan technology and Sony (and Toshiba, the other producer of Betamax) were ordered to cease producing new models and could only produce enough Beta machines as replacement models for the then current Betamax owners. Sony and Toshiba also had to pay a licensing fee to JVC for every Betamax and VHS machine produced. All the tape manufactures also had/have to pay JVC licensing fees. Panasonic produced the first VHS vcr under license from JVC in 1976.

It was only in the US where VHS outsold Beta, (about 60%/40%), in Europe Beta was the clear winner at about 80% of the market, the rest of the world was split abot 50/50.

It's true that the Beta picture quality was a bit better in SP mode, (the tape speed was a bit faster, which is why Sony was the first to produce the longer tapes so they could fit programs longer than 120 minutes on them). JVC always had Sony beat in the EP (6hr/T-120) mode.

Sorry to be so long-winded on an off-topic.

Jay 

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Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums 

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Posted by betamax on Thursday, May 29, 2008 4:42 AM
 Driline wrote:
 loathar wrote:

Blank VHS tapes are still readily available. Like DC locomotives will be for a long time to come.

Anynody know WHY VHS beat out Beta?Whistling [:-^]

Yes.

Although Beta was of slightly superior quality in terms of color reproduction, it was waaayy more expensive. The public voted with their wallets and it was eventually doomed. It didn't help that Sony was the only other manufacturer of the technology either.

I'm really surprised that Blue Ray won out over HD DVD. HD DVD was less expensive, but apparently some of the other big studios threw their hats towards Blue ray because of the larger storage capabilities they could see as furthering their revenue stream.



Simple. Sheer numbers.

It doesn't help when for every one you sell, your main competitor sells two, one with his name on it, and one he OEMed for someone else. Really hurts when he is ten times the size, and has ten times the dealers, not including those he is an OEM for too.

With Blu-ray, Sony managed to get Matsushita on board, unlike the last time, ensuring the success of Blu-ray as all the big manufacturers signed on. HD-DVD was Toshiba, and Toshiba alone.

And the adult industry had nothing to do with it. Their "influence" is greatly overrated in consumer electronics, about the only thing they got was the "multi-angle" feature on DVD.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotape_format_war .


As to DC, it will be relegated to the low end in the future, for train sets and the like. Once you go past a certain point, DCC will be the standard everyone uses. Technology will continue to advance and in the process push the price of DCC decoders down, making the cost difference between a locomotive with a decoder ever more competitive.

Recordable CDs were $50 each when they first appeared about 20 years ago. You can buy the burner today for less than that. CDROMS were expensive, as where the drives at first too.
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Posted by jecorbett on Thursday, May 29, 2008 4:30 AM
 eeyore9900 wrote:

Interesting about the VHS/Beta thing-I have a bud who for some strange reason always went out & bought stuff when it was 1st introduced-meaning a Beta camcorder & player, & VHS camcorder & player.

I went with Beta over VHS for my first VCR simply because Toshiba had come out with a "portable" recorder that could be hooked up to a camera. It had two separate boxes instead of one and to make it portable, you simply unhooked the larger one which held the tape from the smaller box which I'm guessing was the brains of the unit. The portable box was about the size of a backpack and designed to be carried over your shoulder. Video cameras back then were also fairly large. The thing set me back about a grand in 1980 which would translate to about 3 grand in today's dollars. The stupid thing is I never did get a camera for it.

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Posted by rolleiman on Thursday, May 29, 2008 1:03 AM

Wow.. Some of you are Really dating yourselves here. ASTRAC, 6 Volt Standard? I saw an ASTRAC setup once at a train show. Some widow was selling off her late husband's stuff. Complete set with the station and several receivers (wasn't 6 the max on a setup?). I almost bought it just for the interest of the thing. Wasn't the 6v standard just after W.W.II? Seems like I read that somewhere once.

As for the question at hand, look how fast RTR took off. Not the train set junque but the detailed $30 per car preasssembled, slap it on the layout and go. I was in the LHS recently and it somewhat suprised me how Few rolling stock Kits were still available. Even buildings, accessories (like turntables), people in general seem to prefer the convenience of buy it and set it down. I think as long as people are able to build layouts, dads buy the kiddies the first train set, DC will always be on the scene. Like HO scale overtook O scale in use and popularity (in the USA) however, DCC will have the lion's share of the market.

off topic SoapBox [soapbox] With respect to the VHS vs DVD (of any flavor), I've NEVER rented a VHS, took it home to watch, and had the message 0013 DISK IS DIRTY flash on my television screen. I never rented a VHS tape that constantly skipped because some jerk couldn't keep his fingers off of the surface. SoapBox [soapbox]

Modeling the Wabash from Detroit to Montpelier Jeff
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Posted by eeyore9900 on Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:05 AM

Getting back into the hobby not quite 3 years ago, I was blown away about what DCC offers! One of the things years back that intimidated me was all the block wiring/switches that went with DC. (I am aware that DCC takes a good bit of feeder wires (but that's the most I know of it at this point, so bear with me-I'll do considerable more research once the time comes & needed.)

Jim Hediger, whose Ohio Southern I drool over day after day in the 9/05 issue of MR, is wired for DC for that was "what to do" when it was wired. His philosophy is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" It still works good for him, so he doesn't plan on changing it. He did say if he had to rebuild or start over, he would go with DCC though.

Interesting about the VHS/Beta thing-I have a bud who for some strange reason always went out & bought stuff when it was 1st introduced-meaning a Beta camcorder & player, & VHS camcorder & player. (at the "then" cost of several thousand $$$-he never waited for the cost to come down Confused [%-)]) anyways, he took Beta vid of his son when he was a toddler, & some of his Dad (who passed away suddenly shortly after) I was on him constantly to have it transferred to VHS (this was before DVD) before his Beta player went out, but he never did at the last report. I haven't seen or talked to him in quite awhile, but when I do, & find out his player finally went out, I don't want to be the one to tell him "I told you so", as he's a LOT bigger than I am, & could turn me into mincemeat if he could!

Just my My 2 cents [2c]My 2 cents [2c]My 2 cents [2c] & probably needless ramblings.

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Posted by dinwitty on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:55 PM

you may not be so aware the adult industry does tend to drive technology around a bit...

 As far as DCC taking over DC, I find in the world of tracklaying, your still going to end up doing all the things done in a DC layout is going to happen for a DCC layout. Some areas of wiring are simplified, but because of DCC it introduces other problems just by the fact of its own technology.

So even doing DCC, it won't excuse good wiring, period.  

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Posted by HarryHotspur on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:54 PM
I predict that within 6-8 years DCC will begin to become standard fare in starter sets. Then it will snowball. Some of us older guys who haven't accepted DCC will still try to convince ourselves that DC is better, even though we're amazed at the things the 11 year old down the street can do with his trains. It will be worse when the kid says, " Hi Mr. Hotspur. Have you gotten all three of your trains to run at the same time yet? I'll help you if you want. Oops, I gotta go. I left my trains running and they've probably finished the swithching operation by now, and I want to be there when the triple header pulls that 80 car freight up to the top of the sofa!"  Smile [:)]

- Harry

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Posted by doctorwayne on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:14 PM
 Paul3 wrote:

doctorwayne,
It's not easy, but yes, I have "controlled" two DCC locos/trains at one time in the yard.  Mainly, I use this ability to run the road power out to the departure yard while I'm still drilling cars on the yard lead, or to move road power of incoming trains to the engine facility while drilling cars.  It's not something that I do constantly, as it is quite difficult to split one's attention.

More often (but still rare), I run a road train while switching a yard at the same time.  With a DT400 throttle (and it's two throttle knobs) it's very simple to do so.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven


************

Well, I can run two or three trains at the same time on DC, too, but only one will actually be under control. Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]  What I'm trying to say is that a moving train with no operator devoted to it is basically out of control - my layout has speed limits, speed restrictions, etc. that demand the "engineer" pay attention - in my opinion, that also ensures that he gets the maximum enjoyment out of that moving train.  Different strokes, I suppose. Big Smile [:D]

Wayne 

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Posted by Paul3 on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 9:40 PM

doctorwayne,
It's not easy, but yes, I have "controlled" two DCC locos/trains at one time in the yard.  Mainly, I use this ability to run the road power out to the departure yard while I'm still drilling cars on the yard lead, or to move road power of incoming trains to the engine facility while drilling cars.  It's not something that I do constantly, as it is quite difficult to split one's attention.

More often (but still rare), I run a road train while switching a yard at the same time.  With a DT400 throttle (and it's two throttle knobs) it's very simple to do so.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 9:25 PM

I think the DCC socket with DC plug will become standard, it seems to be well on the way.  Then you can plug in a DCC decoder if you want. But I don't see DCC as standard until the price comes down some more.  As near as I can tell, with discount the DCC starter sets are about $150  plus the cost of the decoders in each locomotive and a power pack is about $35.  Plus the DC system is simpler and you don't have to worry about blowing a decoder.

Instead of being like VHS and Beta, I think it will be more like stick shift and automatic.  DC continues but DCC becomes more popular once cost comes down.

Enjoy

Paul 

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Posted by doctorwayne on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 9:10 PM
 Occams Razor wrote:

Hopefully.  Once DC is gone there won't be as many issues with having to install decoders, they'll already be there...in all models not just some.  Why use a vastly inferior technology?

It depends on your point of view whether or not DC is "inferior technology" - I run DC which means that (so far) I don't have to lay out extra cash for a decoder that offers me nothing.  My trains run fine, double headed, triple headed, with pushers, etc., etc.  I have no complicated wiring, no need for a bus wire, and no need to clean track either.  New technology, no matter how "impressive", is extraneous when the old is still doing the job. 

 Occams Razor wrote:

I have some concern though over people that think that DCC only benefits those with large layouts.  In my opinion, there are far more advantages provided to small and mid-size layouts (provided they want to run more than one engine) by DCC then there are to large layouts.

I keep hearing how DCC lets you control the trains, not the layout, but I've yet to understand how one operator can control two trains - one train with another (or others) running, perhaps,  but certainly not control multiple trains.  To me, control implies that you can simultaneously have two locos switching a yard, for instance, with each stopping starting, reversing, etc. as required - great with an operator for each (and a real positive aspect of DCC), but as unlikely for a single operator as having a single person drive two cars at the same time. Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg]  For those who want sound, it's certainly more practical with DCC, although not everybody wants sound.  Ditto for lights - DCC offers impressive capabilities, but the first time the headlight flickers due to a speck of dirt or whatever, you're back to the toy train era. Big Smile [:D]

I'm sure that DCC will continue to grow, and that DC will shrink as us old timers die out, but I don't think you'll see DC disappearing completely.  The "next big thing" could be just around the corner, too, and there's probably just as much chance that DCC too will fade away, perhaps before DC does. Big Smile [:D] 

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Posted by TomDiehl on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 7:38 PM
 jfugate wrote:

Usually at the 20-year mark is when a new technology becomes entrenched. For DCC, this will be somewhere around 2013 ... so we're still some 5 years away from that time.

I do see DCC becoming like radio control is to model airplanes ... you don't have to model airplanes that way, but it's considered the defacto standard if you want the most flexible control of your model.  You can still buy low end model airplanes that don't come with radio control, for example ... but most serious model airplane hobbyists graduate to radio control pretty quickly.

I see the same thing happening with DCC. You will still be able to buy less costly locomotives that don't come with DCC decoders already installed. But most locos will be DCC-ready and allow plug-and-play DCC decoder installation.

I think we're still at least 5 years away from this "defacto" standard, however. 

Joe, I think the biggest stride forward in the acceptance of DCC was the NMRA setting up a standard for the basic control signal. Before this, most DCC equipment was not cross compatable, ie. the decoders made by one company had to be controlled by a system from the same company. It was the VHS/Beta comparison several times over. Of course this might make it more difficult to determine when the "20-year mark" starts.

Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown
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Posted by TomDiehl on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 7:26 PM

The simple answer is "no" DC will not go away. Simply because DCC technology is built on DC basics. The decoder still feeds plain DC to the motor, so DCC is simply a "middle man" in the control circuit, which is DC, varied in voltage and polarity, to control the motor.

Back converting a DCC locomotive to straight DC would be easy if all new ones would come in DCC only.

Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. Chief of Sanitation; Clowntown
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Posted by BurbankAV on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 7:13 PM
 Tilden wrote:

BurbankAV,

  Re-read Loathar's answer, he is correct.  His reference on the adult film industry was for VHS vs Beta and is true.  For HD/Blue Ray, he does mention major studios.  I hadn't heard about HD being too high a resolution.

  What really bothers me is both loathar and I knew about the...uh...Graffic Adult Art tie-in with Beta/VHS.  Humm....must have been a TV program on it....right loathar?

  Glad to know Wally's has VHS tapes.  Now, who is carring Beta tapes?

Tilden

It's so far off-topic that it's not worth fighting about, but if you'll check my post, you'll see that I was referring to Loathar's comments about HDDVD/Blu-Ray. 

As an additional note, there's no resolution difference between the two formats: the acceptable resolutions are determined by the Advanced Television Standards Committee (ATSC), and both are limited to a maximum resolution of 1920x1080 (aka 1080p).  Both types of discs use the same set of codecs -- AVC, VC-1 or MPEG-2.  The only significant differences are (1) the storage space [BluRay having roughly double that of HDDVD], (2) the underlying programming language [which I touched on in my previous post], and (3) regional coding [allowable in Blu-Ray, not allowed in HDDVD].

But as for the Beta/VHS discussion, Loathar's answer is basically correct -- although there were a number of factors that played into that contest.

And for anyone looking for Beta tapes: if you can scrape up old Beta shells (I used to haunt pawn shops looking for them...) you can swap in the tape from a new VHS shell to no ill effect.  I ran my 1982 Beta recorder until 2004 this way...

Peter 

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: Amish country Tenn.
  • 10,027 posts
Posted by loathar on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:36 PM
 Tilden wrote:

BurbankAV,

  Re-read Loathar's answer, he is correct.  His reference on the adult film industry was for VHS vs Beta and is true.  For HD/Blue Ray, he does mention major studios.  I hadn't heard about HD being too high a resolution.

  What really bothers me is both loathar and I knew about the...uh...Graffic Adult Art tie-in with Beta/VHS.  Humm....must have been a TV program on it....right loathar?

  Glad to know Wally's has VHS tapes.  Now, who is carring Beta tapes?

Tilden

Yes. And it was on PBS, believe it or not.Wink [;)](seriously) And another one on Spike TV recently.

 

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: SW Washington State
  • 60 posts
Posted by Occams Razor on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:35 PM

Hopefully.  Once DC is gone there won't be as many issues with having to install decoders, they'll already be there...in all models not just some.  Why use a vastly inferior technology?

I have some concern though over people that think that DCC only benefits those with large layouts.  In my opinion, there are far more advantages provided to small and mid-size layouts (provided they want to run more than one engine) by DCC then there are to large layouts.

-Matt S. Modeling in HO & N
  • Member since
    April 2008
  • From: Los Angeles
  • 199 posts
Posted by Randall_Roberts on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:33 PM
 loathar wrote:

Blank VHS tapes are still readily available. Like DC locomotives will be for a long time to come.

Anynody know WHY VHS beat out Beta?Whistling [:-^]

Beta wasn't slightly technologically superior, it was VASTLY superior.  It used a single-arm spindle mechanism that pulled the tape 3/4 around the tape head for better contact and a vastly improved image.  The VHS mechanisms used two spindle arms that only gave 1/2 diameter contact with the tape heads.

VHS beat Beta, as others have said, on price and storage capacity.  But the unseen factor was that it was a proprietary system made only by Sony while Matsushita opened the VHS specifications up to other manufacturers, just as IBM opened up their vastly inferior PC architecture and had contracts that allowed MS to sell the OS to other PC manufacturers, while Apple kept the vastly superior Macintosh architecture proptietary.  As with the Mac, A variant of Beta did survive, Betacam was a popular commercial format and is still around.

However, the DC standard in model railroading has a history dating back well over half a century, while these electronic products barely reach back two decades.  DC will be around in some form.  But it will be interesting to watch and see how much of the market DCC takes, and what forms it evolves into.

Best!

Randall Roberts Visit http://modeltrains.about.com Subscribe to the FREE weekly Model Trains newsletter.
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Utica, OH
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Posted by jecorbett on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 5:03 PM
 alcofanschdy wrote:

I asked the owner of the LHS I go to mostly and asked him what he thought and he said the vast majority of his customers were into DC.  Most had small layouts and not the large MR Mag type layouts that would support DCC.  He does have a lot of customers that use DCC but DC is still dominate in his shop.  I'd like to hear what other LHS owners are experiencing in this.

Bruce 

I have little doubt that DC is still in the majority but the question is what will be the dominant platform down the road. When DCC first came out, there was just a trickle of modelers who went to it. Then it become a steady stream. At some point, I think the dam will burst and DCC will push DC aside. As DCC becomes more prevalent, there will probably be little if any difference in the cost so builders of new layouts will have little reason to stick with the old technology. I don't think the holdouts can keep DC viable indefinitely. Maybe for another decade. Perhaps a little longer. Eventually DC will get swept away and something else might come along that makes even DCC seem antiquated.

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • 790 posts
Posted by Tilden on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:55 PM

BurbankAV,

  Re-read Loathar's answer, he is correct.  His reference on the adult film industry was for VHS vs Beta and is true.  For HD/Blue Ray, he does mention major studios.  I hadn't heard about HD being too high a resolution.

  What really bothers me is both loathar and I knew about the...uh...Graffic Adult Art tie-in with Beta/VHS.  Humm....must have been a TV program on it....right loathar?

  Glad to know Wally's has VHS tapes.  Now, who is carring Beta tapes?

Tilden

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