&*%/# Starving Artists @%#! A follow up to "Graffiti - Art or Vandalism"

[Anonymous]

Big_Boy_4005 - I think I understand where you have been coming from and what is the dilemma we all face, but probably in varying degrees from awe to disgust.
To say that some graffiti is good, or okay , while other graffiti is bad, and not okay is so subjective. It's like saying some rap is good music and vice versa. How do you define what is offensive on the internet or TV? Should this, and not that, be blocked or deemed in poor taste? Graffiti cannot be judged as either good or bad from a legal sense -it's all illegal, period. Does some graffiti illustrate artistic talent? Absolutely. And it's not unlike music, in that some people shouldn't try to sing anymore than some shouldn't try to paint, no matter what the canvas. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

[Big_Boy_4005]

Bravo Bill, and after all we have been through. I have always conceded the fact that I believe that graffiti is illegal no matter where it is. This was more of an exercise in sifting talent from trash, and you have just graduated. Now when you see a train go by, you will see it a litle differently.

It might go something like this: crap, crap, clean, crap, clean, clean, OOOOH, crap,crap, HMMMM, clean..........

The car that prompted this whole thing is the one back at the beginning of this topic, the mural with the Twin Towers. Once you get past the fact that it is graffiti, the piece is rather emotionally stirring. My goal is not to turn everyone here into an art critic, but more to say: This is a part of what we see on the rails today. And then to ask if some of it is worth modeling.[:)]

Bill, it is interesting that you ask about what might be considered offensive on the internet. In the last 48 hours Bergie has had to exercise his power, and remove material that had been posted on the Trains Magazine forum. It seems that our friend Railrover in addition to liking graffiti, likes to ride freight trains.

Like graffiti, this activity is illegal, but unlike graffiti, hopping freights is also dangerous. Some of the members over there work for the railroads. Well, what started out being OK turned ugly fast when Railrover's travels went public. It got much worse than our political argument.

Bottom line is, black and white is pretty hard to come by in cyberspace. Some places have no rules, others are very strict. We are pretty lucky here, at least we can talk about graffiti.[;)]

[Anonymous]

Graffiti on trains is not marking territiory in any way. It's get your graff name up, There is no profanaty in the graffiti. Graffiti (the detailed kind) is done as a majority of white males that write one word (exp: sug, rover, amaze, grey, acfl, azier, kfc). Each of the the words has a important meaning to the sertain writer. Me for example can only say what I write to others by safe means such as the internet so i don't get busted. I write ACFL because I can work with the letters well and each of the letters means something to me. When I paint Fr8's put tape over the nubers and information and so do all the writers i know. And i am in many art classes, I've one many art shows but the only reson i put time in that because it helps me get better in graffiti. Graffiti's not a wast of talent, I can't think of one thing that i rather be doing with my life, Graffiti is a huge thing, you'd be suprized how many people do it in the US and Canada alone.

[tatans]

Some of the best creative and original "art" I have seen in 40 years is the new graffitti, but what a shame to see it displayed on grubby old industry sites, all that creative talent wasted on goofy incentives.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACFL_ONER

Graffiti on trains is not marking territiory in any way. It's get your graff name up, There is no profanaty in the graffiti. Graffiti (the detailed kind) is done as a majority of white males that write one word (exp: sug, rover, amaze, grey, acfl, azier, kfc). Each of the the words has a important meaning to the sertain writer. Me for example can only say what I write to others by safe means such as the internet so i don't get busted. I write ACFL because I can work with the letters well and each of the letters means something to me. When I paint Fr8's put tape over the nubers and information and so do all the writers i know. And i am in many art classes, I've one many art shows but the only reson i put time in that because it helps me get better in graffiti. Graffiti's not a wast of talent, I can't think of one thing that i rather be doing with my life, Graffiti is a huge thing, you'd be suprized how many people do it in the US and Canada alone.

No offence but I think anyone who sprays cars up should go to jail, I've takien so many great shots while on railfanning trips that where ruined because of graffiti.

QUOTE: There is no profanaty in the graffiti.

Don't know were your from but a good portion of graffiti I see here(5% or so) is usualy stuff I can't post unless I want to get banned.

I do agree that it takes talent to spray up a car but I think thry should have a wall or building made just for graffiti to keep people from spraying stuff illegally

[Anonymous]

Graffiti is illegal, no question about that, but some of them that I've seen on rolling stock while riding the commuter train that takes me to school everyday just made me go in awwws. There is a lot of talent in (most of) those drawings, I've seen some that were detailed so much that you could swear it was a picture.

But no matter how people see it, graffiti is part of our modern society, and when I get to build my layout, I'll make sure to add some graffities on some of my rolling stock.

[Anonymous]

if it makes the scene do it

[Anonymous]

___________________________________________________________________ There are many types of Train graffiti, from the "jesus is king" to the "F**k you", the train graff i'm talking about is under the Hip Hop section. And not all ways is the hip hop graff art like too, like a tag (signiture of the graff writer), throw up (bubble letters of the writers signiture which can be clean looking to quick and one colour), and the last a piece (the art like painting with alot of time and work put into it.

Why does a many colour panting screw up your railfanning trip?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACFL_ONER
Why does a many colour panting screw up your railfanning trip?

Nothing better than a steamer pulling freight, but whats wrong, SOMEONE SPRAYED UP THE BOXCARS!!! [soapbox] A perfect picture ruined.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACFL_ONER

Graffiti on trains is not marking territiory in any way. It's get your graff name up, There is no profanaty in the graffiti. Graffiti (the detailed kind) is done as a majority of white males that write one word (exp: sug, rover, amaze, grey, acfl, azier, kfc). Each of the the words has a important meaning to the sertain writer. Me for example can only say what I write to others by safe means such as the internet so i don't get busted. I write ACFL because I can work with the letters well and each of the letters means something to me. When I paint Fr8's put tape over the nubers and information and so do all the writers i know. And i am in many art classes, I've one many art shows but the only reson i put time in that because it helps me get better in graffiti. Graffiti's not a wast of talent, I can't think of one thing that i rather be doing with my life, Graffiti is a huge thing, you'd be suprized how many people do it in the US and Canada alone.

No offence but I think anyone who sprays cars up should go to jail, I've takien so many great shots while on railfanning trips that where ruined because of graffiti.

QUOTE: There is no profanaty in the graffiti.

Don't know were your from but a good portion of graffiti I see here(5% or so) is usualy stuff I can't post unless I want to get banned.

I do agree that it takes talent to spray up a car but I think thry should have a wall or building made just for graffiti to keep people from spraying stuff illegally

Gee Mark, I go out and specificly take pictures of the graffiti. The cars these days can get pretty drab without it. My entire point with all of the graffiti topics was to raise awareness, and point out that, like it or not, graffiti is a part of the modern landscape. It won't go away. We don't have to model it, but it can make our models more interesting and realistic if we do.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

[It won't go away. We don't have to model it, but it can make our models more interesting and realistic if we do.

I'm looking for grafiti artists to do decals.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by roachachi

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

[It won't go away. We don't have to model it, but it can make our models more interesting and realistic if we do.

I'm looking for grafiti artists to do decals.

[#welcome] to the forum. Rather than find an artist to make decals for you, you could make your own by taking photos of real trains. That's what the topic in the link is about.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16086

There are also some sheets of graffiti decals commercially available.

[dave9999]

Elliot,
I took these photos today.
These are shots of the "Graffiti Bridge" just south of downtown Pensacola.


This is the CSX tressel that crosses 17th Ave. "Artist" have been working on this bridge for decades.
It has become sort of a landmark around here. The City of Pensacola nor CSX seem to mind the
"art", and I don't remember any outcry from the public. I guess people have come to embrace it.

Now for my opinion: Yes, it's vandalism in the first degree! I just believe that local folks have become
blind to it and I believe if the City or CSX was to paint over the graffiti, it would only be a matter of time
before a fresh coat of graffiti would appear.

The ironic thing is that the Florida Marine Patrol office is directly across the street and no one ever
gets caught. And make no mistake, the Marine Patrol are full fledge cops and could bust anyone
for commiting a crime.

I was going to post these pics back when this topic was more "active" but I never seemed to have
my camara with me when I was downtown. Dave

[Big_Boy_4005]

We had a graffiti bridge here too. It was also a railroad bridge. The tracks are long gone. Now I can't remember if it has been torn down or not. I thought they had needed to widen the road.

Wasn't that the name of one of Prince's movies back in the 80's. The Purple one is from here you know.

Sometimes an otherwise mundane thing like a bridge can take on a life of it's own when it becomes a tradition to go out and leave your mark. I'm guessing that most of that is done by the local high school kids.

The high school that I went to had a rock out on the front lawn. It was almost like a mascot. It was getting painted sometimes a couple of times a week. Some was done by our students, some by rival high schools the week of a big game. Sometimes it was a sanctioned event, but most of the time it was done in the middle of the night. Show up in the morning, "Oh look, the rock's been painted".

One day I went over to it , and there was a chip in the paint, so I picked at it a little. There was over a half inch of paint, and I still hadn't found the rock. Rumor had it that it had started out as a pebble.[swg]

Anyway Dave, we digress. These are stationary objects. This one happens to be part of the railroad, but it is something that the community has to see every day. The focus here was intended to be on the cars themselves, because in the later topics the discussion turned to the aspect of modeling it.

Illegal and nonconformist as it is, some of it is also very colorful and eye catching, and seems to be a permanent element in the landscape. Thanks for sharing those photos.

[Anonymous]

Sorry to bring a dead thread back to live but...
...here are some picture's from the internet of fr8 train graffiti i picked out...
I'll read of what they say...
DICE

SCAR

TASK

SCAR/SEWON

SERVER

[Anonymous]

I hate hiphop culture because tagging is part of that culture (and I hate crap music,) they find it part of culture. If they think tagging freight cars are cool, how about they just paint the car they own. Or how about I paint their Escalades and see if they like it

[Anonymous]

I picked out some nice paintings here, as you all know, not all painting on fr8's are as nice. I'm not trying to make graffiti anything it isn't. Trains aren't painted by those of us who graff, to **** people of. Nor are they painted because there isn't a legal space we can graff on. Trains are painted because graffiti is illegal, the whole point of graffiti is to get out, paint as much as possible, as nicely as possible and not be seen. It's something we practice hours and hours for years so we can go out and paint illegally. We for the most part don't expect to get anything out of it, and slave away all for no money, no profit. It's advertising, without an advertisement. And that's why I love being a part of it...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PennsylvaniaRailroad

I hate hiphop culture because tagging is part of that culture (and I hate crap music,) they find it part of culture. If they think tagging freight cars are cool, how about they just paint the car they own. Or how about I paint their Escalades and see if they like it

Graff writers don't paint cars, unless there asked to...they paint fr8's, trucks, walls, subways etc.
They tend to stay away form cars, homes etc.
Fr8 train graffiti writers are 70% white people from all over, alout of them aren't even into hiphop. I'm not that much, i listen to Iron Maiden and Metallica for the most part. The more urban writers are into hip hop. But graffiti writers are all different so.....

[Anonymous]

more fr8s...
Both are painted by REVERS (same writer)

[PennsyHoosier]

Wonder where those thugs practiced their "art" b4 they committed vandalism on the RRs. They are criminals--nothing more, nothing less.

[Anonymous]

bunch of writers...

reser

dst crew

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PennsyHoosier

Wonder where those thugs practiced their "art" b4 they committed vandalism on the RRs. They are criminals--nothing more, nothing less.

Paper, and boards, i'm saying this form my expirece. I'll post some of my work just i have to blur the numbers befor i do. So bulls can;t hunt me down.

If were criminals to you, o well. I'm still gonna paint...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACFL_ONER

Sorry to bring a dead thread back to live but...
...here are some picture's from the internet of fr8 train graffiti i picked out...
I'll read of what they say...
DICE

SCAR

TASK

SCAR/SEWON

SERVER

[soapbox]THOSE F**ING BASTARDS!!! THEY DESTROYED FALLEN FLAG CARS! IC,ICG,FAMILY LINES,BN,etc![:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]

[easyaces]

The graffitti artists are hardley starving. Most are just kids supposedly expressing themselves. Now maybe if they approached the right people to create thier art and put thier talents to work LEGALLY, there would not be a need for the railroad cops or otherwise to keep them from thier artistic craft !!! I have seen a lot of it and I agree that some is quite good, but in any sense of the word, it is STILL ILLEGAL !!!!! and constitutes VANDALISM!!!!!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

I want to thank everyone who responded to the original poll.
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12463

Well, it is clear from the response that most people, when forced to choose between art or vandalism, see the illegal nature of graffiti well before the art that some of it truly does possess.

I deliberately withheld my opinion from the discussion, and was pleased to see that a number of people could see past the the illegal aspect and recognize the talent needed to create an image of this size and quality.

I'm not sure how many took the time to enlarge the original image, so I have provided a couple of closeup shots so that you can see some of the thought that went into creating this very unusual car.

When does vandalizing railroad cars cross over into the realm of art??

Here are some of my thoughts:

• when it uses more than two colors
• when it includes more than "a tag"
• when it is a group effort
• when it does not contain profanity
• when it trys to convey a message, even if we don't always understand it
• when care is taken not to obscure reporting marks

WARNING!

This topic will be filled with emotional responses, PLEASE respect the opinions of other's in making yours, and have fun!!!!

Click on any photo to enlarge it.

P.S. This is my 700th post

[danmerkel]

i dissagree for the simple fact that art has no boundaries or limitations, yes graffiti on trains is vandalism, but the fact that it is illegal does not take away the artistic merits of the work, so for anyone to say it is not art is dead wrong. art is not contingent on whether it is legal or not.

So, if someone killed someone and disected the body completely & perfectly, you would sit badk and say, "Yeh, he killed someone, but, man, what a brilliant surgeon!???"

To me, recognizing the "art" sounds like a weak attempt to cover up the vandalism. The two can be and are easily separated. You don't sit back and say, "What a talented engraver," when you look at counterfit money.

dlm

[MidlandPacific]

I don't generally like modern graffiti, but I have to admit it's been around for quite a while - the term "graffiti" actually comes from an Italian word meaning "to carve or inscribe." Modern graffiti really dates from the invention of the spray can; before that it was all about carving your name in something, usually wood or stone, and it has a long and quasi-honorable tradition: the basement walls of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre are covered with centuries of Maltese crosses carved by pilgrims.

Modern graffiti isn't all hip-hop, either: while riding the "Empire Builder" out to Glacier in 2003, I was stunned to see that someone had spray-painted the name "Stalin" in Cyrillic characters on one of the express cars at the end of the train. THAT was strange. I still haven't figured out how to explain it.

I think graffiti can really add something to a model: a year or so ago, the Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazette ran a piece on Australian Rick Richardson's model railroad (Sept-Oct 03). I was looking at one of the pictures, and saw that someone had painted the slogan "Draft Billy Hughes instead" (or something of the kind) on a fence. It dated the scene perfectly: Hughes was the Australian Prime Minister during WWI, and that slogan not only placed the modeling in time, it added a messy, disruptive element to an otherwise perfectly ordered industrial scene. So for those who model the age before the spray can, graffiti looks different - kids carving their names in trees, or hand-painting a short slogan - but it's still there.

regards,

Rob
http://midlandpacific.typepad.com/
Golconda, CO to Yalta, CA in HO gauge!

[Anonymous]

I was surfing google when i came apoun this thread. I paint fr8's and know many others who do, it's cool that it sparked a conversation like this.

As for the future of fr8 train graffiti, it's only going to be more and more of it. Many writers now rock a 7 trians a week, some more, all year long. And fr8 trains are all most never buffed, never if you don;t hit the numbers. More and more people are starting up into graffiti. It can never be stoped because...
1) It would cost way more than it's worth to buff trains.
2) They can never fence off and put cameras everwere fr8's are, It would also cost way more than it's worth....I mean there are fr8's layups everywere.

And graffiti as much as some hate it, it's funny. I mean turn on the TV. All the crap about acepting gays and other prev's as normal people, when in fact that's what will rub of negitively on your kids. Not graffiti. Graffiti's something only one in a thousand can truly do, i don;t mean just the art skill and the way of the can, i mean to have the sprit to do one after anouther after anouther and so on...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Like graffiti, this activity is illegal, but unlike graffiti, hopping freights is also dangerous. Some of the members over there work for the railroads. Well, what started out being OK turned ugly fast when Railrover's travels went public. It got much worse than our political argument.

Not 100% true, fr8 train graffiti can and is veary dangerous, even more so in city yards. There have been many deaths because graff writers were hit by fr8 trains.

[mikebonellisr]

IF the railroad asked the artist to paint this then it's art [good or bad] If not,then it's Vandalism...NO MATTER WHAT THE SUBJECT IS!
Let the 'artist' express his self on his OWN house,car,canvas,body or whatever

[Anonymous]

Look, thats been said a 1,000 times. Graffiti is going out and painting trains, not sitting at home painting flowers.

I was hopeing for more intersting feedback, not the same old same old.