&*%/# Starving Artists @%#! A follow up to "Graffiti - Art or Vandalism"

[Big_Boy_4005]

I want to thank everyone who responded to the original poll.
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12463

Well, it is clear from the response that most people, when forced to choose between art or vandalism, see the illegal nature of graffiti well before the art that some of it truly does possess.

I deliberately withheld my opinion from the discussion, and was pleased to see that a number of people could see past the the illegal aspect and recognize the talent needed to create an image of this size and quality.

I'm not sure how many took the time to enlarge the original image, so I have provided a couple of closeup shots so that you can see some of the thought that went into creating this very unusual car.

When does vandalizing railroad cars cross over into the realm of art??

Here are some of my thoughts:

• when it uses more than two colors
• when it includes more than "a tag"
• when it is a group effort
• when it does not contain profanity
• when it trys to convey a message, even if we don't always understand it
• when care is taken not to obscure reporting marks

WARNING!

This topic will be filled with emotional responses, PLEASE respect the opinions of other's in making yours, and have fun!!!!

Click on any photo to enlarge it.

P.S. This is my 700th post

[Roadtrp]

How about if I stop by your place and create some "art" across your garage door or on the side of your car? [;)]

The artistic merits of the work have NOTHING to do with whether or not it is vandalism. It could be a freaking Van Gough, but if it was painted on someone else's property without their permission it is vandalism.

If I caught someone doing it on my property, I'd go to get my gun. [:(!]

(If I had one...) [:P]

P.S. Guess you decided it was a nice afternoon for a little trolling, huh? [(-D]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

How about if I stop by your place and create some "art" across your garage door or on the side of your car? [;)]

The artistic merits of the work have NOTHING to do with whether or not it is vandalism. It could be a freaking Van Gough, but if it was painted on someone else's property without their permission it is vandalism.

If I caught someone doing it on my property, I'd go to get my gun. [:(!]

(If I had one...) [:P]

P.S. Guess you decided it was a nice afternoon for a little trolling, huh? [(-D]

Thanks for the wink, I sense the humor.[:)]

I have conceded the issue of vandalism, I'm really asking about this particular image. Look closely.

Perhaps these vandals don't view a railroad car as "presonal property" and don't give it the same respect as if it belonged to an individual. Do their actions truly DAMAGE the car, or simply deface it, or perhaps embellish it?

I'm not looking to start a fight, just some intellectual discussion. When I started the Busted!! topic, I had no idea that it would turn nasty, and that was never the intent. I admit it did turn quite nasty when I caused ACL to blow a gasket, but I wasn't "trolling" prior to that.

[Anonymous]

I wonder what railroads would say if they went up to the yard office and asked permission to paint somthing meaningful that does not mess up the car ?

[Anonymous]

I must admit that I didn't take notice of just what that graffiti actually was until now. However, it is still vandalism, no matter how nice it may look!

[timthechef]

I have seen some truly wonderful art on train cars along with a lot of tagging. It's too bad that some of the artist-vandals couldn't work with the railroads to possibly submit a proposed idea and get to paint a car with the railroads permission. Unfortunatly even it they did that someone else would probably tag it!

[Anonymous]

Well put, Big_Boy.

[Roadtrp]

Big_Boy,

I think you know I'm just giving you a little good natured ribbing. A little trolling never hurt anyone, and at times in the past have been accused of being one myself. I kind of stopped doing that though... I got tired of having to find new boards all the time!! [swg]

Seriously... although I think some of the pieces DO have artistic merit, there are many ways the creativity could be expressed without resorting to vandalism. It really is kind of a self-centered act -- kind of like "You ARE going to see my artwork whether you want to or not!" I really think it says more about the tagger's desire for attention than anything else.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

How about if I stop by your place and create some "art" across your garage door or on the side of your car? [;)]

The artistic merits of the work have NOTHING to do with whether or not it is vandalism. It could be a freaking Van Gough, but if it was painted on someone else's property without their permission it is vandalism.

If I caught someone doing it on my property, I'd go to get my gun. [:(!]

(If I had one...) [:P]

P.S. Guess you decided it was a nice afternoon for a little trolling, huh? [(-D]

Thanks for the wink, I sense the humor.[:)]

I have conceded the issue of vandalism, I'm really asking about this particular image. Look closely.

Perhaps these vandals don't view a railroad car as "presonal property" and don't give it the same respect as if it belonged to an individual. Do their actions truly DAMAGE the car, or simply deface it, or perhaps embeilsh it?

I'm not looking to start a fight, just some intellectual discussion. When I started the Busted!! topic, I had no idea that it would turn nasty, and that was never the intent. I admit it did turn quite nasty when I caused ACL to blow a gasket, but I wasn't "trolling" prior to that.

[#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto]

Ifit's sprayed on a car, it's vandalism. IT IS NOT ART.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks guys, see it is possible to have a nice polite intellectual discussion even on a topic like this. This follow up was was planned from the beginning, and there is one more level after this, which will tie it all together.

I do know how to sidestep potential conflict when it arrises.[;)]

By the way, did anyone notice that there was a new response to the original topic?
Seems we have a new member who is actually a reformed "Railroad Artist" and goes by the name xstyle. Check out his stuff!!

[Anonymous]

Too bad the artist put the wrong year for 9/11.

[fiatfan]

doccm9

I would interpret it differently.

The artist/vandal appears to have noticed the first three digits of the car number and put the date in accordingly. Just my opinion.

Tom

[Anonymous]

Maybe, but it still looks it says 2002.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey, you guys are starting to see it now !!!! [^]

When I saw it I thought it might be some kind of memorial or tribute on the first anniversary of 9/11.

Hmmmmm, Interesting, and all on the side of an object that moves.[:D]

[Anonymous]

[

[Fergmiester]

What will the anthropologists be saying in 10002?

[krump]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

The artistic merits of the work have NOTHING to do with whether or not it is vandalism. It could be a freaking Van Gough, but if it was painted on someone else's property without their permission it is vandalism.

totally agree.
this is uncommissioned work by an artist on a private (stolen?) canvas... looks like a one yr tribute, where was this photo taken? interestingly, it's on CPRail. artistic vandalism

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by krump

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

The artistic merits of the work have NOTHING to do with whether or not it is vandalism. It could be a freaking Van Gough, but if it was painted on someone else's property without their permission it is vandalism.

totally agree.
this is uncommissioned work by an artist on a private (stolen?) canvas... looks like a one yr tribute, where was this photo taken? interestingly, it's on CPRail. artistic vandalism

Ah yes, where WAS it taken??? Krump, good buddy, you've been away for a few days, and missed all of the excitement. Where else, but at my favorite hot spot, called Dayton's Bluff, just east of downtown ST Paul. Its a long story, and one that is not recommended for all audiences, but you can find the details over on the topic called Busted!!!![:p]

Just be careful opening it, all kinds of crap flies out of there!![}:)][banghead][banghead][banghead][:-,][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Oklahoma Train Nut

I wonder what railroads would say if they went up to the yard office and asked permission to paint somthing meaningful that does not mess up the car ?

Interesting idea, I suspect the people at the yard office would refer you to corperate HQ, and by the time you got an answer, the car you asked to paint would have been retired.[:p] These guys do manage to cut through all of the red tape.[:)]

[krump]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by krump

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

The artistic merits of the work have NOTHING to do with whether or not it is vandalism. It could be a freaking Van Gough, but if it was painted on someone else's property without their permission it is vandalism.

totally agree.
this is uncommissioned work by an artist on a private (stolen?) canvas... looks like a one yr tribute, where was this photo taken? interestingly, it's on CPRail. artistic vandalism

Ah yes, where WAS it taken??? Krump, good buddy, you've been away for a few days, and missed all of the excitement. Where else, but at my favorite hot spot, called Dayton's Bluff, just east of downtown ST Paul. Its a long story, and one that is not recommended for all audiences, but you can find the details over on the topic called Busted!!!![:p]

Just be careful opening it, all kinds of crap flies out of there!![}:)][banghead][banghead][banghead][:-,][(-D][(-D][(-D]

Hey Big_Boy_4005, I did catch up on the "Busted" topic, but I never connected these two topics until now. I'm glad things were easily resolved with the railyard police, but if need be, I would have written a letter supporting your release to "parole"[tup][C):-)]... I have contacts in Michigan Courts and throughout Canada[:D], but not sure about Minnesota??? a letter from BC wouldn't mean much there, sorry.[:(]

perhaps you'd be interested in modelling CON-RAIL or PENN STATE [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]like the scene that I'm developing behind the Courthouse, Police Station, jail, and graffiti filled rail cars...[^]

[Anonymous]

"When does vandalizing railroad cars cross over into the realm of art??

Here are some of my thoughts:

when it uses more than two colors
when it includes more than "a tag"
when it is a group effort
when it does not contain profanity
when it trys to convey a message, even if we don't always understand it
when care is taken not to obscure reporting marks"

i dissagree for the simple fact that art has no boundaries or limitations, yes graffiti on trains is vandalism, but the fact that it is illegal does not take away the artistic merits of the work, so for anyone to say it is not art is dead wrong. art is not contingent on whether it is legal or not.



is this art.. yes.. is this illegal. yes.

i think the bigger issue should be safety, if kids are coming to yards and are unfamiliar with their surroundings, they are potentially in danger, if kids leave cans around, workers have the potential to slip on them.


if you notice, the graffiti artists that have been painting trains for many years have a certain level of respect for the train workers, they avoid the numbers
and if you dont think that some of these kids love trains just as much as you do you are wrong.. and i use the term "kids" loosely because the majority of the graffiti writers that have been painting trains for the past decade are in their mid to late 20's.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thank you Railrover!!!! Those are some superb examples, and I agree completely with your assessment of the nature of the beast.

As you are new here, please be advised that there are many who do not see past the vandalism aspect, I however am not one.

Yesterday I was out and about, and spotted 2 cuts of perfectly clean cars. I had my camera, and wi***hat I had taken a couple of quick shots. Many people are under the imperssion that vandals strike while cars are on railroad property, and that they should be stopped by railroad police.

The cars that I saw were parked on a couple of industrial sidings, with one side facing a quiet street, and the other facing a marshy wetland. It would have been a simple task to hit the back side in broad daylight.

This activity doesn't go on in high traffic areas, it happens when cars are awaiting loading or unloading or while in storage in a secluded place. It happens when cars are in the hands of smaller railroads that don't have the money to patrol every inch of the track that they serve.

It probably won't go away, it is a crime of opportunity, beside, we aren't talking violence here, we are talking minor property damage, of a very IMPERSONAL nature. It is also illegal to deface US currancy, but if you look in your wallet, there is a good chance that you will find a bill with some writing on it. While clearly less artistic, it is no less illegal. The question is when was the last time you heard of anyone being arrested for either of these crimes?

I am thourouhgly outraged by oil prices, Enron, Tyco, Iraq, Martha, terrorism, and even the Union Pacific logo crap. Is anyone really being harmed by graffiti? You could argue that it costs the railroads money to clean up, but do they actually clean up that much? It seems like the more I look, the more marked cars I see!!!!

As modelers, we need to lighten up, have some fun and add some color, to what would otherwise be a rather drab paint job. Graffiti doesn't belong on EVERY car, that's not realistic either. But, depending on the time period that you model, it is a part of reality, and if that is what we truly seek to represent, it needs to be considered.[8D]

[AntonioFP45]

Big_Boy_4005[:)][;)]

I see your point, but I still must disagree with you. [;)]

Deferring to other issues such as terrorism, and gas prices is simply a "copout"!
That's like bumping into a person's car with a bicycle and putting a small dent into the fender. The bicyclist points out, "Well you've already got a dent in the back anyway!" How do you think the car owner is going to react?

As for lightening up and adding some color, I would ask you to consider the following facets:

[1] "Graffitti Tagging" displays an "In Your Face, 100% LACK OF RESPECT for the rights of property owners, whether an individual or a corporation.

[2] No matter how attractive the artwork,Graffitti "Tagging", in most people's minds, is associated with "Gang-thug" activity whether a gang actually did it or not. Based on what most gangs in this country and Canada represent; people would rather not be reminded of this. [V]

[3] Inspite of the reports of "profits", several railroads are cash strapped so they try to concentrate on mechanical type maintenance. The number of freight cars in the U.S and Canada is enormous! Graffittied cars are lower priority.

[4] Cleanup/Repainting costs in the long run are simply going to be passed on to the "shipping customers" when the roads seek approval for rate hikes. The shippers of course then pass the costs on TO US, without batting an eyelash! We then turn around and scream how greeedy and unfair! In case we've forgotten, a lot of our food, autos, and goods still get moved by by rail! [8)]

[5] In the end, the overwhelming majority of people that are pleased with the tag work are taggers themselves and a few sympathizers.

Trashing trains is simply "Not Cool!" [tdn][*^_^*]

[tree68]

We debate the artistic nature of these "artiste's", yet we don't wonder why they don't turn their obvious skills to more constructive ends. Someone with this level of talent must certainly be in demand at any number of businesses that deal in visual graphics.

Oh, wait - many of these artists wouldn't be caught dead in a legitimate business place. It would interfere with their image, and they would be expected to produce, not just do it when it struck their fancy.

[Anonymous]

Recently I was watching a train roll on by, Out of 84 cars, 69 of them had graffiti on them, It looked very pathetic. Not one of them had any sort of good so called art on them. But I do like the look of the 9/11 vandalizing art, I have seen this one roll by me several times. The way I see it , If you don't have written permision to use the portable steel canvas by the owner's........."DON'T TOUCH"...............

[trainfan1221]

I wouldn`t think much of it if it were one car here or there, but I see whole trains where over half the cars are full of graffitti. I think this is unfortunate because it does get annoying after a while and shows how many people think nothing of going out and leaving their mark on railroad property. As for the original picture presented by
Big_Boy4005, I think it is one of those things that will offend many simply due to the sensitive subject matter. It can be interpreted in a number of ways. Probably not the best way to show your support for our country, if thats what the artist was trying to do.
I will say, however, that I do get a kick out of modeled grafitti on cars, and it does represent a bit of the real world so it actually makes sense to model these. I can`t paint to save my life, so I would just as soon wait to see if any come out in n scale. A friend of mine has one in O, of course its Lionel using it to advertise themselves as always!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Some museums hang provocative works on the gallery walls. Here you could say we have a mobile canvas. It leaves the scene of the crime, and travels the country, on tour as it were, perhaps exposing itself to a larger audience than a billboard sitting by the side of the highway.

The real question is NOT whether we like it or not, it is do we see it, or ignore it in the hope that it will go away. What would the railroads look like without graffiti?? Would we notice??

Larry, actully, I have run across two such members here so far. One responded to the original poll, and goes by the name xstyles. He has turned his talent to a more acceptable canvas, and everyone can view his work on that topic, on page 3.

[Anonymous]

"No matter how attractive the artwork,Graffitti "Tagging", in most people's minds, is associated with "Gang-thug" activity whether a gang actually did it or not"

now should a graffiti artists be held down with this stigma because people are too ignorant to realize less than a percent of the graffiti is done by gangs.

"Trashing trains is simply "Not Cool!""








now i dont think anyone would call this trash... i know i'm being biased and posting the nicer pieces, but im not trying to defend the legitamacy of doing this, but as far as a hurtful crime, i think it's real low on the scale, im saying that legal or not.. it is art

"Oh, wait - many of these artists wouldn't be caught dead in a legitimate business place. It would interfere with their image, and they would be expected to produce, not just do it when it struck their fancy"

okay, now if you were an artist, would you rather ask permission to execute a piece of work and possibly be restricted in what your ideas are capable of, or be allowed to freely create whatever you can fathom, now im not advocating painting your neighbors car, but could you imagine telling the solo artist, collosus of the roads, the rambler, herby(rip), or any other moniker artist that what they are doing is so wrong and that they should ask permission and do it on a wall??? that's rediculous because when it comes down to it, it's a freight thing just as much as it is a graffiti thing... i imagine that a good percentage of those kids painting the trains love sitting and benching all day long, watching trains, marvelling at a fresh new smoothy, with freight graffiti, you have to take the good with the bad, and if you look at those trains above, i would definately say that the good out weighs the bad.

"But I do like the look of the 9/11 vandalizing art, I have seen this one roll by me several times"
stokerk, out of curiosity, is this on a black CP hopper?

[Anonymous]

Well Big boy what a subject. How long do you think Grafitti has been around 20 years 30 years well I think it has been around alot longer than you think. What about pornography just as long I think.

A few years ago I visted Pompeii, and guess what they had it then, grafitti I mean not a lot but some after it is a latin word. As well we went into brothel that had quite clear pictures, frescos if you like on the walls, so that you could pick any position you desired.

Pompeii ceased to exist about 70 BC so it was all a long time ago.

However, I have also visted Singapore many times and they do not have grafitti at all, why? because they seriously want to get rid of it. They chase down perpertrator and string them up and give them a hiding with a paddle on bare skin and guess what they don't do it again and neither does his mates (buddies) and thats how it should be.

This is vandalism and it is unsightly to nearly everyone, so why put up with it.

Ian; Kawana Island

[Anonymous]

Art, is something that you can appriciate. Graffitti is vandalism! Their canvas is NOT their property!!
I see it as a socitital problem. THese folks have been given anything they want, and so why should they respect anyone elses property?
Rail cars are not nemt to be covered in "art", but in the paint scheme chosen by the railroad or leasing company.
Why have the railroads gone to the sparten paint schemes? The cost money! I would much rather see cars with large railroad logos on their sides than graffitti.
I think, BigBoy, that if it aint yours, you shouldn't paint it!!!
PHL