NMRA Join or not join

[jfugate]

As to the price of attending a National Convention not being cheap these days -- show me a National Convention that is cheap.

If I look at the National Association of Miniature Enthusiasts (Dollhouse modeling), for my wife and I to register for the convention would be $420, compared to $210 to register the both of us for the NMRA National this year in Anaheim. Notice, the NMRA registration is HALF of what the Dollhouse crowd is charging for a couple to attend their convention.

Of course the cost of travel and lodging to attend a convention has nothing to do with the NMRA ... it's the cost you need to factor in to any out-of-town vacation or event you attend.

As to membership cost, compare the $51 to belong to the NMRA to the cost to join the National Association of Rocketry (model rockets) - $62 if you are over 21. 

Long story short -- the cost of *everything* is going up. But the NMRA membership and National Convention registration remain quite competitive when compared to many other similar hobby organizations.

[Attaboy]

yougotta, since Pastor Bob hasn't answered yet, I will take the liberty of at least starting to answer your question about Roanoke.  Short answer, The Kalmback Memorial Library probably has some of what you are looking for.  You may want to contact them by email at [e-mail] to find out.  It may take an exchange of several emails to narrow down your search to get what you are most likely looking for but take the time to do it.  Search fees can add up quick at $15 per hour for members and $30 per hour for non-members, charged in 15 minute increments.

You may also want to look for an N&W historical society.  A quick google search turned up this site:  http://www.nwhs.org/

[yougottawanta]

Thanks for stepping in and OUCHHHH! Thats an expensive way to do research.Thanks for the site I will check it out.

[mobilman44]

HI!

I've been an NMRA member for about 10 years, but held off a long time before joining.  I am not a "clubber", and have not gone to the conventions, etc.  Frankly, I only belong for the Scale Rails Mag, and to support the Hobby, for the NMRA has done a great job in implementing standards and guidelines for the manufacturers.

On the other hand, it is rather pricey, and frankly may be more money than many can afford.  When the dues went up significantly a few years ago, I thought of dropping my membership.  But, all of a sudden the monthly mag took on a new image, thanks to the efforts of Stephen Priest - who is (along with his wife) a well known RR author.  I have to say, without the upgrade in the mag I probably would not be a member today.

Mobilman44 

[pastorbob]

Only cheap convention I ever heard of is the "Knights of the Road", and "Bums of America".  Everything else costs.

 Bob

[train18393]

RE: This is my second post on this subject.

Concerning what is going on in the DCC arena with a manufacturer trying to say they own exlucsive patent rights or all other DCC manufacturers must pay them a royalty, then if for no other reason many DCC users should be members of the NMRA as I have for over 30 years in spite of being a "lone wolf" modeler.

Paul

Dayton and Mad River RR

[Mike B]

I have attended several  NMRA Lone Star Region conventions in Texas.  The clinics at the conventions have been just super and are one of the main reasons I am a NMRA member.  I especially like the "hands on" clinics.  It is one thing to read a magazine article about doings something but quite another to do it after watching a real life demonstration and then have the instructor come by your table and give you advice. My wife enjoys going to many of the craft clinics and also doing a little shopping.  This is one of the times that we both get a real kick out of the hobby. We're now looking forward to attending the national convention in Milwuakee in a couple years. 

Mike B.

[jamnest]

NMRA member here. 

Think about what this hobby would cost, what kind of selection of products you would have if the NMRA was not around to set standards.  I will continue to support the organization through my membership for this reason alone.

Take a look at the NMRA involvment in the DCC sound patent lawsuit.

I agree that Scale Rails has become an exceptional MRR magazine, well worth the cost of membership alone.

[pastorbob]

Pastor Bob , When you mentioned history , that really got my attention. I also love history. And living in No. Va. there is a lot of that here. Civil war battlefields , Daniel Boone at Thourahfare Gap,Indian villages,Colonial history etc.  One of the areas of history I have been trying to research is the N&W . I was born in Roanoke  and still have most of my family there (oh one day to leave this area and go home ) any ways I have been trying to find out more about the locomotives built there . I have a lot of steam engines (50 + ) which goes with the fact that this rail system was the last to use steam and I am hoping to model some of my next expansion with this area in mind. Will I find much info in the NMRA about N&W and its predessors ?

You have been answered by someone else, but I would add that NMRA is geared more to the model/hobby end, the historical societies are geared more to the prototype.  I don't know much about the Norfolk Western Historical group, but I am pretty sure they have one.  I  belong to the Santa Fe modelers and historical society, have for years, and continued when the modeling group merged withe the historical group.  We have an excellent publication, local and annual meets, and I have a lot of sources for info when I need it.

But again, not everyone is a joiner, or interested to the level of spending money for info, etc.

Bob

[Anonymous]

So you have already spent your $51 and recv'd a promise that you will recv. a membership packet in 6 to 8 weeks.  STOP! There is the red flag.  Very sloppy management. Demand a full refund, NOW. Why on earth would you want to support such shoddy business practices? 6 to 8 weeks to place several pieces of paper in an envelope? Really?  Why? One quite simply can not justify that time line.

Of course it has not occured to management to have those packets already packed & ready for next day's outgoing mail. It has only pleased them that they now have your $51 and any/all future communications/correspondence w/them will be on ther terms, not yours! And so long as hobbyist continue to pour money N2 that type of additude, your member serv's can only get worst. You collectively make it what it is and it ain't never gonna change w/your curent additue.

 It would be interesting to know there timely manner of response if you should sent them an E.

 

Respectfully

Danny

 

[BRAKIE]

What I'm getting from this is if your not in a club and you don't drive 10 hours to the nearest Division meet, it's kind of a waste.
Other than the track standards thing, are there any benefits for those of us Lone Wolf modelers? (I'm figuring not)

Well how about home layout tours? Meeting new friends..Learning new things..

Of course one can't enjoy those things if he's a "lone wolf" modeler.No insult seeing I was one before I learn the "people" side of the hobby is a fun facet of the hobby after joining a club at the age of 16..

Today I know dozens of modelers,seen  several home layouts and have operated on 7 of them,been to slide shows,discuss new models,took tours of railroad shops etc.

To my mind its nice to go to Train Shows,hobby shops,trackside and see old friends and talk shop.

Yeah, the bad thing is the hobby is non existent where I live so there are no shows or layout tours. (or hobby shops) I get one show a year that's 2 hours away and it's not an NMRA show.
Not a Lone Wolf by choice.

 

Been there and done that for three long years..The closest hobby shop was 72 miles or 142 mile round trip.We had 3 train shows a year at 13 miles,28 miles and 60 miles.Double that for the round trips.

Closest club at that time was 56(102rt) miles away.

Needless to say all of my models was mail ordered and that brown van was seen every other week.

I was more then happy to move back into civilization.LOL!

[Paul3]

Sorry, folks, but I'm not buying the argument that giving the NMRA money today is supporting Standards that were developed 50 years ago.  As for modern Standards, the only thing new the NMRA has done in the last 50 years is DCC...which was created by Bernard Lenz and then given to the NMRA.

The NMRA C&I "football" does not equal quality, it merely means that the one item turned over the the NMRA for testing conforms to all applicable NMRA Standards (not all Recommended Practices, just all Standards).  It doesn't mean that every item produced meets these Standards (just look at how coupler heights are all over the place with the Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars...and yes, they have C&I #1999-29 to #1999-33).  It also doesn't mean that the item is of high quality, that it's accurate, or that it will last (think of all the cracked gears with P2K and Athearn Genesis Pacifics and Mikes...and all have the "football").

Where is the NMRA coupler?

Where is the NMRA Bi-Directional DCC?

Where was the NMRA when it came to UP's licensing fiasco?

Where is the NMRA when it comes to DCC sound functions and features?

Where is the NMRA with regards to high quality standards like Proto:87 and Proto:48?

Where is the NMRA Web Forum?

To me, a non-member, it appears as if the NMRA is a reactive organization these days rather than proactive.  The hobby appears to be moving forward without much guidance from the NMRA (from my point of view).

BTW, I'm not saying that the NMRA is a bad organization (hey, if you don't have a club near by, it's the next best thing), but I don't think it's "all that and a bag of chips", either.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[jamnest]

The NMRA is a not-for-profit organization run by volunteers.  Yes, they have some employed staff, but the organization is goverend by volunteers.  The members of the standards committee are volunteers.  It is an opportunity for model railroaders to give back to the hobby to the benefit of all.

 

 

 

[Pruitt]

So you have already spent your $51 and recv'd a promise that you will recv. a membership packet in 6 to 8 weeks.  STOP! There is the red flag.  Very sloppy management. Demand a full refund, NOW. Why on earth would you want to support such shoddy business practices? 6 to 8 weeks to place several pieces of paper in an envelope? Really?  Why? One quite simply can not justify that time line.

Of course it has not occured to management to have those packets already packed & ready for next day's outgoing mail. It has only pleased them that they now have your $51 and any/all future communications/correspondence w/them will be on ther terms, not yours! And so long as hobbyist continue to pour money N2 that type of additude, your member serv's can only get worst. You collectively make it what it is and it ain't never gonna change w/your curent additue.

 It would be interesting to know there timely manner of response if you should sent them an E.

Respectfully

Danny

There's one problem with your analysis, Danny. NMRA is not a business. so the 6-8 weeks (which seems to be the outside limit when things get hectic, by the way) delay is not indicative of any business practices. It IS indicative of the volunteer nature of the organization, and the inherent limits on that sort of thing.

[colvinbackshop]

Well...

I am a proud supporter of the NMRA for a good many years now. In all honesty, back on the first page, Joe Fugate pretty well summed it up and was then seconded by both Mark B (Brunton) and Attaboy!

I DO live in the sticks with the closest ANYTHING MRRing related a minimum of two hours drive. If it weren't for the connections / friendships I've made through the NMRA (I have been blessed with the attendance of a few national conventions) I don't think I would be back in the hobby.

And...I have to thank the NMRA not only for the standards of by-gone years, but for their ongoing efforts too. They may not seem as earth shattering...But may someday!

[New Haven I-5]

I am not a member of the NMRA and I have had a great time in Model railroading.  I couldnt imagine my life changing for the better if I joined.  Its not like joing the SAG (Screen Actors Guild) union which will enable the person to make more money and get better acting jobs that require you to be union.  since joining the SAG I have been in many many commercials and about 15 movies with speaking roles oh yes I have been a bad guy actor on Americas Most Wanted twice and a FBI agent once!  I am currently working on a movie right now where I am a Undercover police officer.  The NMRA does not = SAG.  

Just a question, who are you? Because I & maybe others would like to know who this "movie star" is.

[rolleiman]

Pastor Bob , When you mentioned history , that really got my attention. I also love history. And living in No. Va. there is a lot of that here. Civil war battlefields , Daniel Boone at Thourahfare Gap,Indian villages,Colonial history etc.  One of the areas of history I have been trying to research is the N&W . I was born in Roanoke  and still have most of my family there (oh one day to leave this area and go home ) any ways I have been trying to find out more about the locomotives built there . I have a lot of steam engines (50 + ) which goes with the fact that this rail system was the last to use steam and I am hoping to model some of my next expansion with this area in mind. Will I find much info in the NMRA about N&W and its predessors ?

I'll say that on a personal level, the NMRA isn't for me. Joined, got little out of it for my efforts and cash, didn't rejoin. Given your interests and goals, you Might get a whole lot more out of the N&W Historical Society. The University of Virginia (I think) website has a collection of photos from the N&W Thick with Roanoke photos (Google is your friend). If joining a club that requires an NMRA membership for insurance reasons is your goal, do so if the club is important to you. If finding information on your prototype is your goal, I think it would be better to go to the organizations dedicated To that prototype. Just my 2¢..

 

[highhood63]

Sorry, folks, but I'm not buying the argument that giving the NMRA money today is supporting Standards that were developed 50 years ago.  As for modern Standards, the only thing new the NMRA has done in the last 50 years is DCC...which was created by Bernard Lenz and then given to the NMRA.

Edited  to cut down on mindless nonsense.

If some folks found a bar of gold lying on the beach they would no doubt whine about how heavy it is.

 Painting the NRMA as merely a reactionary organization is idiocy pure and simple, and rebuking the organization about its DCC standards is beyond idiocy, honestly look at what has been accomplished so far:

http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/standards_rps/DCCStds.html

That is a significant body of work. Can you show me any other organization that has done more in the field? Can Anyone?.... 

 Maybe the DCC dealers association, but considering that they were created from a NMRA SIG....

And that is so far, see they aren't not done yet, and yes I understand that isn't sufficient for you, but I will take your opinion seriously when you found an organization that produces more than just circular logic and non sequiturs.

Also you are correct currently the NMRA doesn't have a single official forums, but considering that most of there regional divisions do, and the fact that there are scads of newsgroups, usenets, IRC groups, mailing list....there really isn't that much need for one, actually sometimes I'm overloaded with all of the information I get from the NMRA.

 Finally, as far as the UP licensing fiasco goes that was resolved to the benefit  of the model railroad industry after all was said and done all model train manufacturers were allowed to use UP logos and trademarks forever without having to pay a royalty, I'm not quite sure how much better that could have went or why you expect the NMRA to step in and start telling corporations like MTH and Lionel's legal departments how they should proceed.

Not being a member you probably don't get this so I'll clue you in.

The NMRA is there for the hobbyist first and foremost, they will never be this over-mind entity (that for some weirded out reason)  you expect them to be, and that for most rational folks is a good thing. So no you are not going to see the Official NMRA Coupler, Loco or Home lobotomy kit, so you're going to have to look elsewhere, it's just isn't that type of group, but most people still find value there.

Maybe  you might want to try and give the six-month trial a spin, then at least you can appear to be a disenchanted former member rather than some scmhoe  that's talking out of the wrong orifice.

Think about it.

[jwils1]

I just joined yesterday, thanks to this thread.  NMRA is just another opportunity to learn and grow in this wonderful hobby.  I'm sorry I put it off for so long.  And, Scale Rails looks like a great publication.  It sounds like some are so experienced and informed that they don't need NMRA, but I for one seek out every opportunity to learn, and to support those who are contributing to our learning.

[Paul3]

highhood63,
Be careful, your Troll horns are showing...  Labeling other's opinions as "mindless nonsense" is certainly a Troll-like behavior pattern.  Next time, try disagreeing with someone without insulting them.  It may come as a shock to you, but it's actually possible.

Of course, I did not label the NMRA as "purely reactionary", I just said it appears that they are more reactive than proactive these days to me (that's more than 50%, not 100% as you said).  My point is that the NMRA should be doing more, IMHO.  Maybe then I'd be a current NMRA member.

If you take the time to look at the NMRA Standards, RP's and Data Sheets, there's a ton of information there (I have a full set from the 1960's-1970's...I bought them second hand at a hobby shop 10 years ago as it was the first time I had seen a printed copy).  How many new model railroaders (say, with under 5 years in the hobby) even know this information exists?  It's not advertised even at NMRA Div. or Regional shows (at least here in the Northeast).  Why?

My point about the internet forum is that it would be nice if we could have a popular national-focused webforum that was not beholden to corporate interests or belong to one person that can be capricious.  I think the NMRA would be the best organization for it (perhaps with extra content for NMRA members).  Believe me, I'd love to have more people on rec.models.railroad (the last bastion of almost-free-speech for model railroaders), but the fact is that model railroading newsgroups are just not that popular anymore for discussions (too many trolls, spam and OT drivel).  r.m.r used to get hundreds of posts a day.  Now, you're lucky if you get 100 in a couple days.

For UP's licensing fiasco, the NMRA silence was deafening (but the MRIA's was worse).  That the NMRA took no position (I never heard one) is almost as bad as the MRIA's rolling over and playing dead.  At the very least, the NMRA could have come out against destructive licensing practices like the UP's.  I'm not saying that they needed to organize protest marches, but the moral support would have been nice.  About the only ones that took a stand and stuck with it was Kadee, "Model Railroad News", and MTH.

BTW, I like how you glossed over the NMRA Standard coupler issue.  "It isn't that type of group."  It isn't that type of group to establish standards and recommended practices like couplers?  IMHO, the standard coupler is the biggest failure of the NMRA.  The NMRA was created to ensure cross-compatibility, right?  After the gauge of the track, the coupler is the most important item to ensure that all equipment will operate together.  We had the X2F for decades, and now it's the Kadee by default since the rights ran out...but the NMRA had nothing to do with the Kadee. 

Oh, and psst!  Here's a secret: I didn't say I was never a member...I'm just not a member right now.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[highhood63]

highhood63,
Be careful, your Troll horns are showing...  Labeling other's opinions as "mindless nonsense" is certainly a Troll-like behavior pattern.  Next time, try disagreeing with someone without insulting them.  It may come as a shock to you, but it's actually possible.

Insulting?  I merely said such an opinion was ill informed idiocy incarnate, I never called you an idiot Paul, now if I said you were the typical Masshole, then that would be insulting, but I didn't did I? Nor would I ever. :)

Of course, I did not label the NMRA as "purely reactionary", I just said it appears that they are more reactive than proactive these days to me (that's more than 50%, not 100% as you said).  My point is that the NMRA should be doing more, IMHO.  Maybe then I'd be a current NMRA member.

Wow way to gleam the semantics there ace, in either case you are wrong.  Every organization could be doing more,  I mean it's like saying: you know The NY Giants did great when they stomped the Pats in the super bowl, but they could have done better. It's basically hyperbole, but you seem to be all about that.

If you take the time to look at the NMRA Standards, RP's and Data Sheets, there's a ton of information there (I have a full set from the 1960's-1970's...I bought them second hand at a hobby shop 10 years ago as it was the first time I had seen a printed copy).  How many new model railroaders (say, with under 5 years in the hobby) even know this information exists?  It's not advertised even at NMRA Div. or Regional shows (at least here in the Northeast).  Why?

 Well if anyone would bother to drop by the NMRA page they could find all of that right here, http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/consist.html  free to download and print out for Members or Non-members alike, and the past several events I have been to getting the word out to where new members can find this information has always been put forth... Now let me get this straight your whining because the NMRA isn't chasing new members down and telling them this?  Or dropping off printed copies to every hobby shop? Yeah Hold your breath and they'll get right on that. They can reach more people more economically doing it this way.

My point about the Internet forum is that it would be nice if we could have a popular national-focused web forum that was not beholden to corporate interests or belong to one person that can be capricious.  I think the NMRA would be the best organization for it (perhaps with extra content for NMRA members).  Believe me, I'd love to have more people on rec.models.railroad (the last bastion of almost-free-speech for model railroaders), but the fact is that model railroading newsgroups are just not that popular anymore for discussions (too many trolls, spam and OT drivel).  r.m.r used to get hundreds of posts a day.  Now, you're lucky if you get 100 in a couple days.

Yes everyone that doesn't buy your Passive aggressive malarkey is a Troll, and "last bastion of free speech?" Please get over yourself; you're acting like the Model railroad authority has kidnapped your Poodle to silence your superior voice of freedom. It's a Hobby Paul, everyone has their opinions, and shockingly not all of them agree with yours.  What you consider drivel is probably important to someone else. It isn't all about you.

For UP's licensing fiasco, the NMRA silence was deafening (but the MRIA's was worse).  That the NMRA took no position (I never heard one) is almost as bad as the MRIA's rolling over and playing dead.  At the very least, the NMRA could have come out against destructive licensing practices like the UP's.  I'm not saying that they needed to organize protest marches, but the moral support would have been nice.  About the only ones that took a stand and stuck with it was Kadee, "Model Railroad News", and MTH.

  Yes they should have kicked in UP's offices guns blazing and made the situation worse. Most people like you can't understand this but sometimes the best thing to do is let the suits work things out, and during those times you usually end up with pretty amazing concessions...like the ones UP gave.

 

Oh, and psst!  Here's a secret: I didn't say I was never a member...I'm just not a member right now.

 And I'm sure the organization laments your absence every day.

[Jake1210]

What I'm getting from this is if your not in a club and you don't drive 10 hours to the nearest Division meet, it's kind of a waste.
Other than the track standards thing, are there any benefits for those of us Lone Wolf modelers? (I'm figuring not)

 

Agreed. I'm not a member of the NMRA, and even if I was, there would be very little chance of getting to a division meet. Because knowing my luck,the meet will be nowhere within a concievable driving distance. And being 14 with parents who are like hermits, even IF the meet was near, it'd still be hard to go. 

[fwright]

Paul3

There is a lot of standards work still going on that the mainstream never sees.  In particular, over the last decade the fine scale and Proto standards have been revisited and revised to keep up with what is happening.  All with volunteers, as you know.

Coupler wars.  The coupler issue cannot be resolved by a voluntary standards group.  Just like the DCS/TMCC mess in O gauge or the G "scale"/standards mess, if the manufacturers don't fully cooperate the "standards" aren't.  Standardizing on Kadee today for HO couplers would not be a good decision because of the presence of Sergent couplers.  The NMRA tried to design a universal coupler but gave up when they couldn't do as well as the Kadee without infringing on Kadee patents.  Similarly, the RP25 wheel was a compromise to avoid infringing Central Valley's arguable superior CV3 wheel profile.

Standards have to be approved by vote by the NMRA membership.  Many standards cannot get the requisite votes because of legitimate differences of opinion or there is more than one good solution, and become RPs instead.  Some proposals, when there is sufficient controversy, never even make it to RP status.  And if there isn't overwhelming support for a proposal among the membership, does it make sense to try to get manufacturers to adhere to it?

Could the NMRA have taken a stance with UP and CSX regarding model licensing?  Possibly.  But there were strong feelings both ways about the railroads' rights to license their trademarks as they saw fit.  Could a proposal that requested UP change their stance on licensing of fallen flags pass a membership vote?  I would hope so, but I wasn't a member at the time.  And where was the model railroading press advocacy during this period?  I don't remember any strong Model Railroader editorials on the licensing issue.  In the past, Kalmbach has strongly supported many NMRA standards proposals, including both successes and failures.

just my thoughts and memories

Fred W 

[selector]

I am not a member of the NMRA and I have had a great time in Model railroading.  I couldnt imagine my life changing for the better if I joined.  Its not like joing the SAG (Screen Actors Guild) union which will enable the person to make more money and get better acting jobs that require you to be union.  since joining the SAG I have been in many many commercials and about 15 movies with speaking roles oh yes I have been a bad guy actor on Americas Most Wanted twice and a FBI agent once!  I am currently working on a movie right now where I am a Undercover police officer.  The NMRA does not = SAG.  

Just a question, who are you? Because I & maybe others would like to know who this "movie star" is.

I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count.  Hint: he won't be posting under that name any time soon.

[selector]

Paul and Highhood, now would be an appropriate time for the both of you to agree to continue your own conversation outside this thread.

-Crandell

[pastorbob]

Paul and Highhood, now would be an appropriate time for the both of you to agree to continue your own conversation outside this thread.

-Crandell

Thank you, you do a good job.

Bob

[yougottawanta]

Thanks for your input. I will try the hist. soc. also. I think as soon as I have some free cash I will join. Sorry to be so long in responding. Work load lately has been murder. Including on day that was eighteen hours long and I ended up being to tired to drive home and slept on site and went back to work early the next day.Does not leave much time for life or hobbies.