How far should you take prototype modeling?

[IRONROOSTER]

I think that a lot depends on the effect you are trying to create or whether or not you are even trying for an effect. 

I'm trying to recreate the Ma&Pa in the early 50's.  Little changed from 1951,  when the 4th diesel was bought, to 1954 when passenger service ended so that's really my era.  I also try to have more eastern railroad cars than western and so forth.  OTOH I have the NMRA's Heritage and Living Legend series of cars that I plan to use.  And if I there's ever an affordable camelback in S scale I'll include that also.  They don't violate my era, they just didn't exist on the Ma&Pa.  I don't have enough room to recreate in minature locations of the Ma&Pa, so I'll do an impression that will be (at least to me) reminescent of the road.  I also have some Maine 2 footers that I plan to include.

I'm more like an impressionist painter than a photographer.  So the inconsistencies don't bother me and hopefully I'll have a pleasing effect of a shortline railroad in the 50's that can't modernize very much.  It will not be an exact reproduction of the Ma&Pa, but may remind you of her.  And of course this is an evolving process for me, so I'll probably have some changes along the way.

Enjoy

Paul 

[Texas Zepher]

We all know at least one person, and possibly you are one yourself, that modeler that goes to extremes to make sure there model railroad is as accurate as possible, but how far should you take prototype modeling?

As I've posted in other threads on this same topic I have two other people that in my opinion go to extremes.   One of them has modeled and exact piece of Colorado narrow gauge.  They have a very large space but not a whole lot of exact railroad fits into that space.  The locomotives accelerate and move at prototypical speeds.  Since it is all to scale there is no fast clock.  It can take 30-45 minutes to  spot a single car at an industry if a run around is required.  The most boring operating sessions I've ever attended.  Even though we tell him there is a reason they have to pay people to do that in real life, he doesn't understand why no one wants to "come over and operate" his layout.

The other person is a procedure person.  In order to work a train one must take into account the brakeman and flagmen.  To switch onto a side track you have to stop the train at the turnout so the switchman can get out (ignoring the fact that before OSHA switchmen used to just jump off as the train slowed). Then the train proceeds onto the siding and stops you have to account for the time that the brakeman climbs down out of the caboose and walks up to disconnect the cars at the appropriate location.   Starting up is the same in revere you have to allow the brakeman to get to the cars and connect the air hoses, and then you have to charge the system.  etc, etc, etc.   It is interesting for one or two times to really understand what a real train crew would have to do, but then it becomes just downright tedious work.  They also wonder why they can't keep a full roster of people who operate there on a regular basis.

On the other hand my club, has recently moved to the opposite end of the scale.  At an operating session last month I watched in shock as a member went to the main yard and made up a train using the 0-5-0 switcher.  That is TOO far the other way. I mean then what's the point?

In my opinion these are examples of going too far toward the extremes. 

[Tjsingle]

Its at the topf my to do list, and yes  prototyping can make or break the realism of your railroad. like cactus growing on a snowy mountain it doesn't work

 

TO THE LIMIT!

[Charlie]

A good way of putting it into perspective is to look at Pelle's layout. He models Modern UP and BNSF in a fictional setting yet making it look prototypical for the UP. That's how I model the ATSF and SP in NE Kansas during the 80's. But, Business trains will rule in conjunction with freight.

Charlie

[loathar]

Just to the point where it's still fun and not work and I'm not driving myself crazy worrying about what others are going to find wrong with it.

[Anonymous]

I AM A CUSTOM  PAINTER  WHO  RUNS  BNSF  FROM  95 - PRESENT. I  LIVE  NEAR  BELEN  NM.  WHILE  I  DO  NOT  DO  THE  EXACT  ROAD  NUMBERS  I  SEE GOING  THROUGH  BELEN,  I  DO  HAVE  ALL THE  DIFERENT  TYPS  OF  ENGINES  THAT  I  HAVE  SEAN  GOING  THROUGH  THERE.  THAT  INCLUDES  ATSF  DASH 9S  BNSF  DASH 9S  IN  RED-SILVER  H1-H2-H3  AND  SD40S-45S-40-2S  IN  BOTH  WAR BONET  AND  GREEN AND BLACK. I  ALSO  RUN  WHAT  THE  NORMAL  RUN  THROUGH  POWER  IS..CN  DASH 9S AND 40-2S.NS  DASH 9S AND OTHER SUCH ITEMS.    I PREFERE UNITS THAT REALY EXCIST.  UNITS SUCH AS THIS YET TO BE FINISHED ITEM  are included   ARE INCUDED  SINCE THE 2ND ORDER  OF DASH 9S CAME IN THE RED-SILVER BONET IT WOULD NOT BE  ILODGICAL THAT THE 70MACS WOULD HAve been repainted the same way.    i like to add the proper shaped railings when i can.                               i felt that these hand bent grabs look beter then what kato ofered.    and i like my nand rails to have good seperation  between colors. other then m u hoses and a very few other details this  is what i feel is prototypical modeling

[SpaceMouse]

Space mouse:

How long is a piece of string?

bout yay long

[Dave Vollmer]

Well now...

I am very, very pleased at the pleasant way in which this thread has maintained its civility.  Good job, folks!  All too often I have seen similar discussions end up in two distinct camps with the battlefield lying between.

This reminds me a bit of the thread on operator vs roundy-rounder...  I think that the prototype issue is also a continuous spectrum.  The spectrum is anchored at one end by folks like Jack Burgess and at the other end by the Thomas and Hogwarts modelers.  We all fall somewhere on that spectrum.  It's also a moving target, as seen by many of the posts here.  Some folks have headed from fantasy freelancing toward proto-lancing; others have gone from strict proto modeling to freelancing.  No one answer is correct for all members involved.  Clearly it's a personal decision.

Now, that said...  I have never belonged to a model railroading club.  I play well others at work (heck, I'm a military officer, I have to!), but I have very strict standards to how I want my layout and rolling stock to look and behave.  When it comes to construction, I'm a lone wolf.  I'd love to have people over to operate, and I'm very open to new ideas about operation, but construction is my job and mine alone, because no one else shares the exact same vision I have for my layout.

I imagine that many of the challenges facing model railroad clubs stem from this issue.  Prototype-ness (to coin a new word, patent-pending) is a personal choice, a unique position along the prototype spectrum...  and finding two dozen guys with that exact position on the spectrum has got to be difficult.

[Mailman56701]

  Year or two ago, I ran across a site on the web were the guy had a play on words of Koester's "Layout Design Elements".

  He chose "Plausible Design Elements" as a philosophy instead, and in reading the info., I agreed.

  Not trying to take things overly serious, etc.  Lee's post gives a good idea of it.

  Each his own of course, but I recall on one of the DPB videos, two grown men talking on radios to each other, in serious tones, terms, etc., while operating the layout, and I thought it was one of the silliest things I'd ever seen :) 

 

[2-8-8-0]

Prototypical....hrmmm.....

Im building several scratchbuilt locos in N for my B&O layout. That being said, i also want to complete them in my lifetime. I want an EL5 to look, more or less, like an EL5. I am "cheating" and using con-cor and P2K 2-8-8-2s for most of my projects. I dont much care if the valve gear is wrong or if my smokebox access doors have the wrong number of bolts. I want my engines to resemble B&Os locos, i want my interlocking towers to resemble B&Os, etc... Dont have to be exact....but thats just me.

When i look at 2 N scale layouts that belong to other posters here, i think "Pennsy in central PA" and "WM along the Potomac". Thats the type of message i want my layout to convey. "B&O on the West End". Of course, it only needs to convey that message to me.

Tim

[SpaceMouse]

  Each his own of course, but I recall on one of the DPB videos, two grown men talking on radios to each other, in serious tones, terms, etc., while operating the layout, and I thought it was one of the silliest things I'd ever seen :) 

I haven't seen the video, but I have been one of those guys talking on radios. One layout, 5 decks, 25' x 75', I worked had 25 trains running at once. The dispatcher, in another room, ran the trains by computer on a schematic that was three screens wide. For it to work, you have to follow the rules. But as soon as the radio shuts down, engineer and conductor start razzing each other, dissing the dispatcher, talking trash to the guy that over ran his siding and had to back-up 50 feet to avoid a major traffic jam. It's one heck of a party.

On another layout, the rules are a little tighter, but there is beer and chips in the lounge for between trains. The dispatcher sits in a room 50 feet from the layout. This layout is celebrating it's 30th anniversary this month.

Some people model an era and location, ops guys model the function of a railroad. Even there, there is a sliding scale of accuracy.  

 

  

[Mailman56701]

  Each his own of course, but I recall on one of the DPB videos, two grown men talking on radios to each other, in serious tones, terms, etc., while operating the layout, and I thought it was one of the silliest things I'd ever seen :) 

I haven't seen the video, but I have been one of those guys talking on radios. One layout, 5 decks, 25' x 75', I worked had 25 trains running at once. The dispatcher, in another room, ran the trains by computer on a schematic that was three screens wide. For it to work, you have to follow the rules. But as soon as the radio shuts down, engineer and conductor start razzing each other, dissing the dispatcher, talking trash to the guy that over ran his siding and had to back-up 50 feet to avoid a major traffic jam. It's one heck of a party.

On another layout, the rules are a little tighter, but there is beer and chips in the lounge for between trains. The dispatcher sits in a room 50 feet from the layout. This layout is celebrating it's 30th anniversary this month.

Some people model an era and location, ops guys model the function of a railroad. Even there, there is a sliding scale of accuracy.  

 

  

   Yeah, I know.  What I found amusing was these guys were talking to each other like it was life and death though; "Dispatcher xyz, train abc requesting clearance to proceed to location def, etc........." with the answer in similar language.

   To me, a call/answer on the radio of "Hey Joe, can I take my train over to x ?" would have been sufficient :)

[arkansasrailfan]

I would take the model part to the max, but dispatching less seriously. Also, sometimes, I would pull some pranks on operators trains.(put ping pong balls on tunnels, freight cars, make cars have the worst rolling trucks, and fill the chosen with lots o' weight

[Milepost 266.2]

There's a very simple standard to measure how far is too far in prototype modeling:

If someone goes to more effort than you would in accurately modeling something, they are an obsessive jerk with no life who doesn't see the "big picture".

If someone does not measure up to your prototypical standards for detail or operation, they are a simpleton who isn't taking the hobby "seriously" enough.

[Milepost 266.2]

  Each his own of course, but I recall on one of the DPB videos, two grown men talking on radios to each other, in serious tones, terms, etc., while operating the layout, and I thought it was one of the silliest things I'd ever seen :)

I know exactly which section of the video you're talking about, and I think the real problem is they are trying to be "serious" for the camera, so they come off as very stiff and unnatural.  It's nothing new.  Kalmbach employees have been perfecting the "deer in the headlights" method of acting since the very first videos they produced back in the 1980's.

[Mailman56701]

  Each his own of course, but I recall on one of the DPB videos, two grown men talking on radios to each other, in serious tones, terms, etc., while operating the layout, and I thought it was one of the silliest things I'd ever seen :)

I know exactly which section of the video you're talking about, and I think the real problem is they are trying to be "serious" for the camera, so they come off as very stiff and unnatural.  It's nothing new.  Kalmbach employees have been perfecting the "deer in the headlights" method of acting since the very first videos they produced back in the 1980's.

  You know, I think you're right, having put it that way.

[dehusman]

Yeah, I know.  What I found amusing was these guys were talking to each other like it was life and death though; "Dispatcher xyz, train abc requesting clearance to proceed to location def, etc........." with the answer in similar language.

   To me, a call/answer on the radio of "Hey Joe, can I take my train over to x ?" would have been sufficient :)

Every game has its rules and its language.  Listen to a baseball announcer sometime, his jabber makes no sense outside of the ballpark.  Would chess be the same if every piece moved the same as the queen or is part of the challenge dealing with the different capabilities of the different pieces?  Shooting hoops, church league basketball, NCAA basketball and the NBA are all basketball games.  Just because you only want to shoot hoops, why do you need to dis somebody who wants to play at a league or college or pro ball?

Dave H.

[shayfan84325]

I think of the spectrum of model railroaders as running from absolute prototype modelers all the way to those who create fantasy worlds with trains.  What's in between is the vast gray area where most of us reside.  I am closer to the fantasy end than the prototype end, but I respect you all.  My imagination only goes so far in the fantasy realm, but you guys make some really fun stuff.  I tried being a prototype modeler, but it seemed too limiting (my imagination needs room to do plausible modeling), but I respect you like I respect automobile restorers (I'm a hot rod guy, myself).  It's HARD to be that disciplined.

One thing I love about this hobby is how we each get to do it our own way.  What I hope for is that we'll all learn to respect each others approach, because we all contribute to the collective good of model railroading:  The prototype folks keep manufacturers from taking too many liberties with the look, size, and shape of their products, and I think the fantasy folks help to attract new folks into the hobby because they keep its fun side out there to see.

So, in reference to the OP, I'm with the crowd - to each his own.  If it isn't fun for you, you're doing it wrong.

[wm3798]

I've been hosting ops sessions for about a year now.  About once a quarter, actually (just had the fourth one a couple weeks ago.)

We definitely tend more to the beer and pretzels approach.  Over the four sessions, I have been able to refine the operations aspect to help things run smoothly, and we ran a pretty healthy volume of traffic last time, about 20 train movements.

As the crew becomes more familiar with the layout, with place names, the location of the various turnout controls, industry names and locations, and the jobs each train has, I'll be able to add deeper levels of complexity to keep it from getting too mundane.  So far, we're operating solely with a sequence list for dispatching, and random switch lists for the locals.  As we get more familiar, I'll add individual car cards and waybills, and perhaps remote dispatching.

I usually serve as the dispatcher, since I obviously have the most familiarity with it, but I prefer to hang out by my tower board and watch the trains run than sit in a cubicle in another room.  One day it may come to that, but I'm hoping when it does I can keep the dispatch panel in the same room with the trains.  I don't want it to get to the point where I HAVE to have a crew to run trains.

And there will always be beer and pretzels...

Lee 

[lvanhen]

I think of the spectrum of model railroaders as running from absolute prototype modelers all the way to those who create fantasy worlds with trains.  What's in between is the vast gray area where most of us reside.  I am closer to the fantasy end than the prototype end, but I respect you all.  My imagination only goes so far in the fantasy realm, but you guys make some really fun stuff.  I tried being a prototype modeler, but it seemed too limiting (my imagination needs room to do plausible modeling), but I respect you like I respect automobile restorers (I'm a hot rod guy, myself).  It's HARD to be that disciplined.

Many years ago, when Dungeons & Dragons was in "vogue", I thought about creating a primitive type steam loco that could have transported the Knights in Shining Armor, as well as the witches & goblins!!  Still think it would be kind of neat!!

[shayfan84325]

I think of the spectrum of model railroaders as running from absolute prototype modelers all the way to those who create fantasy worlds with trains.  What's in between is the vast gray area where most of us reside.  I am closer to the fantasy end than the prototype end, but I respect you all.  My imagination only goes so far in the fantasy realm, but you guys make some really fun stuff.  I tried being a prototype modeler, but it seemed too limiting (my imagination needs room to do plausible modeling), but I respect you like I respect automobile restorers (I'm a hot rod guy, myself).  It's HARD to be that disciplined.

Many years ago, when Dungeons & Dragons was in "vogue", I thought about creating a primitive type steam loco that could have transported the Knights in Shining Armor, as well as the witches & goblins!!  Still think it would be kind of neat!!

That would be cool.

I think about one that would be set in an architectural mixture of the Shire (Lord of the Rings), Mayberry, and Whoville (Dr. Seuss), and set in 1932 (a little gritty).

[SpaceMouse]

[arkansasrailfan]

Right now I am in the midst of superdetailing an Athrean UP SD70M(4526) I have already said that part earlier, but I will say how far I'm taking it. I had to heavily modify the plow, install MU hoses, place fuel tank filters, air compressor, train crew(from a GP30 that was ravaged by a storm phobic dog-dog destroyed many other trains also), and a wash of paint(to make a little fading), and weathering

[riogrande5761]

I'll just state the obvious.  Everyone has different tolerances for how much detail or prototype realism is needed.  The Model RR hobby is a continuum from total fantasy with trains almost a carcature, to those which follow details extremely closely.

For me, I started out with a general interest in my favorite RR and have since purchased lots of models and later books.  I don't have a layout at present but continue to fine tune my roster of cars to at least buy models which are close to what was typical during my time period.  As for engines, my goal is at least to have the major prototype details represented like nose signal lights, snow plows and a couple other major details which were signature to my RR.  As for layout, certainly I want to capture the look of the scenery and area's but probably won't get into modeling buildings from photographs etc. 

[BRAKIE]

Gee whiz! I don't know..What ever pleases you should be the correct answer is my guess.

[BRAKIE]

  Each his own of course, but I recall on one of the DPB videos, two grown men talking on radios to each other, in serious tones, terms, etc., while operating the layout, and I thought it was one of the silliest things I'd ever seen :) 

I haven't seen the video, but I have been one of those guys talking on radios. One layout, 5 decks, 25' x 75', I worked had 25 trains running at once. The dispatcher, in another room, ran the trains by computer on a schematic that was three screens wide. For it to work, you have to follow the rules. But as soon as the radio shuts down, engineer and conductor start razzing each other, dissing the dispatcher, talking trash to the guy that over ran his siding and had to back-up 50 feet to avoid a major traffic jam. It's one heck of a party.

On another layout, the rules are a little tighter, but there is beer and chips in the lounge for between trains. The dispatcher sits in a room 50 feet from the layout. This layout is celebrating it's 30th anniversary this month.

Some people model an era and location, ops guys model the function of a railroad. Even there, there is a sliding scale of accuracy.  

 

  

   Yeah, I know.  What I found amusing was these guys were talking to each other like it was life and death though; "Dispatcher xyz, train abc requesting clearance to proceed to location def, etc........." with the answer in similar language.

   To me, a call/answer on the radio of "Hey Joe, can I take my train over to x ?" would have been sufficient :)

 

You call like that to any of the dispatchers at the club you won't get a answer because we have no idea who's calling or the location of their train.

Now if you identify yourself as train #431 we will know your location.

[oscaletrains]

hmmm beer and train running,

obviously rule G is being ignored, I dont care how far you prototype a model railroad, railroading and beer should never mix (unless you have a bar/ brewary) altho i geuss unless your drunk it wouldent be that bad a problem.  

[arkansasrailfan]

I heard this- "I'm thankful for beer, guns, and ammo"

[Mailman56701]

  Each his own of course, but I recall on one of the DPB videos, two grown men talking on radios to each other, in serious tones, terms, etc., while operating the layout, and I thought it was one of the silliest things I'd ever seen :) 

I haven't seen the video, but I have been one of those guys talking on radios. One layout, 5 decks, 25' x 75', I worked had 25 trains running at once. The dispatcher, in another room, ran the trains by computer on a schematic that was three screens wide. For it to work, you have to follow the rules. But as soon as the radio shuts down, engineer and conductor start razzing each other, dissing the dispatcher, talking trash to the guy that over ran his siding and had to back-up 50 feet to avoid a major traffic jam. It's one heck of a party.

On another layout, the rules are a little tighter, but there is beer and chips in the lounge for between trains. The dispatcher sits in a room 50 feet from the layout. This layout is celebrating it's 30th anniversary this month.

Some people model an era and location, ops guys model the function of a railroad. Even there, there is a sliding scale of accuracy.  

 

  

   Yeah, I know.  What I found amusing was these guys were talking to each other like it was life and death though; "Dispatcher xyz, train abc requesting clearance to proceed to location def, etc........." with the answer in similar language.

   To me, a call/answer on the radio of "Hey Joe, can I take my train over to x ?" would have been sufficient :)

 

You call like that to any of the dispatchers at the club you won't get a answer because we have no idea who's calling or the location of their train.

Now if you identify yourself as train #431 we will know your location.

   Ok, then how about, "Hey Joe, can I take train #431 over to location x ?" 

[Mailman56701]

Yeah, I know.  What I found amusing was these guys were talking to each other like it was life and death though; "Dispatcher xyz, train abc requesting clearance to proceed to location def, etc........." with the answer in similar language.

   To me, a call/answer on the radio of "Hey Joe, can I take my train over to x ?" would have been sufficient :)

Every game has its rules and its language.  Listen to a baseball announcer sometime, his jabber makes no sense outside of the ballpark.  Would chess be the same if every piece moved the same as the queen or is part of the challenge dealing with the different capabilities of the different pieces?  Shooting hoops, church league basketball, NCAA basketball and the NBA are all basketball games.  Just because you only want to shoot hoops, why do you need to dis somebody who wants to play at a league or college or pro ball?

Dave H.

   Interesting examples, but not sure of their relevance.  I didn't dis anyone; sorry if you feel differently.