I admit it; I'm mainly a 'roundy-rounder.
Oh, it's not that I don't have the means to operate... I have bill boxes, waybills, car cards, and a staging yard. But I've had maybe a total of 3 legitimate operating sessions on my layout since fall 2006.
What gives?
I think I get it now. I like to railfan; no question there. And sometimes "ops" seems like work. But there's a much deeper issue behind it all:
My prototype. It's the prototype's fault.
I chose the PRR's Middle Division to allow me to run virtually all of PRR's equipment, including passenger, intermodal, coal drags, mixed freights, and steam, all present in 1956 on the Middle Division. But I tried to cram this onto a door layout. The first casualties were 2 of the 4 main tracks.
The real Pennsy Middle Division of 1956 stretched from Marysville PA (north of Enola) to Altoona, and was, in most places, four tracks wide and saw over 150 trains a day. And I'm modeling this on a hollow core door? GACK! Who has that kind of staging? Who has that many trains? Heck, you need 50 trains just for a single 8-hour trick!
To make matters worse, the majority of trains traversing the Middle Division were through-trains. Yes, there were locals (including a very busy one working Lewistown and the Milroy Secondary) as well as interchange opportunities with the narrow gauge East Broad Top and standard gauge Huntingdon & Broad Top. But locals can be handled with switch lists, and the through freights just barrel through. Plus, my layout doesn't have room for the proper run-around tracks for switching, so I end up tying up both mains to do it.
So for now my layout is little more than a fun place to run the trains I build, all with the dream of a much larger future layout when space and lifestyle allow. But I'm not going to fall into the trap of the "overwhelming prototype."
My current plans for the future involve a lesser artery of the Pennsy; something with 1-2 tracks and less than half as many trains. Several lines are contendors right now, including the Northern Division from Harrisburg to Northumberland, PA, the Bald Eagle Branch between Tyrone and Lock Haven, PA, the Bellefonte Central RR between Bellefonte and the Penn State campus, and the most likely (as of this week, anyway), the Northern Central branch between Baltimore and York, PA.
The Northern Central branch was mostly single-tracked in 1954, and if I were to model it I'd do so in the 1956-1966 decade. This gives me several passenger trains, at least 2 through TrucTrains, plenty of on-line industry, lots of locals, and interchanges with the Stewartstown RR, the Western Maryland, and the Maryland & Pennsylvania RRs. There's even the Parkton local, a doodlebug commuter train. The scenery was also great. I think that if I were to model a more manageable -- yet still challenging -- prototype, I would be a whole lot more happy with operations.
Just a few rambling Sunday afternoon thoughts...!
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
When you stat over, what will you do with your current layout? Sell it? Or keep it for display and train shows?
I have all the neccisary things for op sessions, waybill stuff, and enough locomotives to keep 4 or 5 people busy EVEN IF they don't bring their own locomotives. The things I'm missing is operators (except in the summer), Digitrax throttles, and the ability to run trains without dead spots.....
I can't really "start over" untile I retire from the Air Force, so that will probably be in February of 2016 (boy, that sounds like a long time!). By that time the current layout will have been through a number of moves and will probably be on its last legs. I plan to canibalize it for every useable part. That includes structures, trees, signals, the DCC components, details, fences, rock faces, et.c I believe in recycling!
The carcas that would be left would be of no use to anyone. I plan to lay waste to it. That's because I've already spent hobby dollars on every bush and garbage can. I don't plan on spending that money twice.
Dave, it reads to me that for Ops to be something fun and memorable, it must be shared. Think of Joe Fugate's Ops sessions. For you and me, what we have to run on is not really conducive to shared operations, both by design and size. While we both have the capability, such as it is, our lone pair of eyes on the layout means that we can really only do straight running and perhaps some easy switching or cutting. To do anything else on my layout means I have to focus entirely on one area of the layout and the rest goes "unmarshalled".
Most of us are loners, most of us probably don't interact with other modellers or club members (I don't know of any regular gatherings or clubs where I live except for one 30 miles away...a bit of a drive).
Maybe I am missing some aspect that would change my impression, but it seems to me that if one is a solitary operator, one is relegated largely to railfanning or simple switching.
-Crandell
Don't tense yourself into a struggle. Remember, this hobby is intended to be "FUN".....not a source of stress.
There are many trackplans that allow for a balance of both; switching operations and run through (roundy-round/watching em' roll) scenarios. My personal preference. That's how my friend who got me into this hobby had his layout setup way back in the late 70s. His layout was based on the Atlas "Great Eastern Trunk", which featured a double track mainline, a small freight yard for classifying, a turntable, and several industrial spurs.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
I like to just run trains too! My chosen prototype (KCS) has very few branch lines and pimarily runs freight with a lot of unit coal and grain trains. When we moved to our new home, I immediately set up my previous modular layout which was a nice sized two track "plywood pacific". I could run long unit and freight trains. I enjoyed the "model" rail fanning. The problem was that I finally had my dream basement (1800 sq ft) and the temporay layout was keeping me from moving forward.
Two weeks ago I constructed two 16' (modular sections 6+6+4) four track staging yards. One staging yard for each end of the layout. I broke the modular oval layout apart and re-configured it to a "u" shape, with a staging yard on each end. As I construct the layout, I just keep moving the staging yards out. I hope to get back to running 35-45 unit trains, however the new staging yards limit trains to about 15 cars.
You have a very nice layout. What about constucting some detachable staging yards that could be attached to your present layout, but utilized in your future layout as well?
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
Crandell,
Good point. At lest one of my op sessions involved a complete stranger who was traveling through the area and asked if he could stop by. But otherwise it's mostly me and my 5 year old son operating, with my 3 year old supervising.
Dave B,
We do switching every few weeks, and can spend upwards of an hour doing so. But usually it's unstructured and without regard for the paperwork. These sessions are fun (and they certainly point out rolling stock issues far more than roundy-rounding does), but they don't feel like "true operations."
My hope is to work closely with people who are smart on MRR operations and people who are smart on how things were done on the Northern Central so that I can design for real operations from the start.
The single track mainline will go far toward discouraging simple 'roundy-rounding. Especially if I have to set up meets and run by signals.
jamnest wrote: You have a very nice layout. What about constucting some detachable staging yards that could be attached to your present layout, but utilized in your future layout as well?
Aha...! Read my mind! I installed this about a year ago...:
Hi, Dave.
I know exactly whereof you speak! As a native (and naive) New Yorker, I started with a grandiose dream to model Grand Central with the lid off - and one leaf of an old dining room table! As time went on I operated on club railroads that operated (timetable, car cards, the works) and on clubs that ran in circles. My home layouts included roundy-rounders (simple and more complex,) switching on a shelf, a couple of point-to-point efforts (with really short trains) and, finally, a module which connected to the rest of the world with cassettes.
At the same time, my prototype inspiration changed from NYC to JNR and my plans slowly contracted from major city on a busy trunk line to smaller place on a secondary main. Then I visited the Upper Kiso Valley and the whole prototype thing came together. A nice secondary main, single track in the roughest country, with a very interesting narrow gauge logging show connecting at a small town that still retained the look and feel of Tokugawa-era Japan. Later I rather arbitrarily tacked on a coal-mining private railway, based on a real JNR branch on a different island.
From then until now, my efforts have been aimed at reproducing that look and feel. I think I've finally designed the layout of my dreams. Time - and a lot more construction - will tell how close I've come.
FWIW, the daily schedule lists 139 JNR trains and 23 TTT trains. Obviously, any given consist will have to play several (or many) parts, and possibly double(head) in brass (that being the most-used ingredient in most of my locomotives.)
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Dave Vollmer wrote: I chose the PRR's Middle Division to allow me to run virtually all of PRR's equipment, including passenger, intermodal, coal drags, mixed freights, and steam, all present in 1956 on the Middle Division. But I tried to cram this onto a door layout. The first casualties were 2 of the 4 main tracks.The real Pennsy Middle Division of 1956 stretched from Marysville PA (north of Enola) to Altoona, and was, in most places, four tracks wide and saw over 150 trains a day. And I'm modeling this on a hollow core door? GACK! Who has that kind of staging? Who has that many trains? Heck, you need 50 trains just for a single 8-hour trick!To make matters worse, the majority of trains traversing the Middle Division were through-trains. Yes, there were locals (including a very busy one working Lewistown and the Milroy Secondary) as well as interchange opportunities with the narrow gauge East Broad Top and standard gauge Huntingdon & Broad Top. But locals can be handled with switch lists, and the through freights just barrel through. Plus, my layout doesn't have room for the proper run-around tracks for switching, so I end up tying up both mains to do it.
That's why I model free-lance layouts. I can set up anything I want in the way of a track plan. I can model an imaginary division of a real or imaginary RR. I can mix and match any scenery I choose.
Elmer.
USN RET.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Crandell it it on the head.
Operations is a team sport.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote: Crandell it it on the head. Operations is a team sport.
Absolutely.
While there's no way to tell where I'll end up in 8 years, the hope is that I can hook up with a group of like-minded modelers.
One of the likely scenarios following my Air Force career would be for me to end up that one of the National Weather Service headquarters facilities just north of Washington, DC. I already know quite a number of like-minded modelers there; many are N scale and do northeastern modeling; plus they already do ops sessions.
The big trick is in planning a layout than can both be operated solo for the usual evenings/weekends, but can still challenge a half-dozen operators once a month. I haven't the foggiest idea how to do that, even though I have Koester's book on the subject.
As for scale, nice try Dave B!
Actually, the Bellefonte Central RR would be a great HO subject... But anything short of a minor branchline on the Pennsy would be a bigger project in HO than I'm willing to bite off on. So N scale it is!
selector wrote:Dave, it reads to me that for Ops to be something fun and memorable, it must be shared. Think of Joe Fugate's Ops sessions. Maybe I am missing some aspect that would change my impression, but it seems to me that if one is a solitary operator, one is relegated largely to railfanning or simple switching.-Crandell
Dave, it reads to me that for Ops to be something fun and memorable, it must be shared. Think of Joe Fugate's Ops sessions.
Bingo!
To me, being able to hold a prototype-based op session is the reason I do everything else in the hobby. And it's the people aspect of the hobby that makes it the most fun.
A prototype op session means a house full of modelers who are there to have a good time running trains! That's why I love 2 person crews as well -- you even get comraderie as you run the trains. So you're stuck in the hole for 15 min's while dispatch gets some hot traffic by you? No problem ... shoot the breeze with your partner! Sometimes being stuck in a siding can be the fun highlight of the evening's op session if the conversation is good.
That people element is one of the things I miss about today's MR. Al Kalmbach called the magazine "Model Railroader" because it's what the *people* in the hobby were doing with model trains that made it the most interesting. When was the last time we saw a regular ol' modeler (not some MR staffer or paid model) on MR's cover? MR's current slogan, "Dream it, plan it, build it" is all about the "it" ... the stuff of the hobby, the static it. And what happened to "Operate it"?
I love Al's original, admitedly campy slogan ... "Model Railroading is FUN". Pretty hard for an "it" to have fun ...
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
I think a big failing on my part was that I chose a plan that looked good to me, built it, and then thought about how to operate it.
I got it backwards.
Instead, I ought to consider first how I want to operate and then plan the layout accordingly.
When I chose the plan, I realized it would look great running at shows, which I sometimes do. But what looks great at shows ('roundy-rounding mostly) doesn't automatically translate into satisfaction at home.
The next step for me is to perhaps alter the layout somewhat by choosing a different part of the Pennsy for it to represent. The Middle Division is just too big to represent on a door in any scale.
http://www.monumentalcity.net/maps/1905/
Scanned plates that will show all of the railroads including the Northern Central. You will want to hit "Save target as" onto your local drive and then open the image in the highest resolution your video card can give you.
There you will see alley level maps showing in some cases sidings.
Elsewhere on the webpage has some NCRR tidbits as well.
Dont give up on your railroad, Ive enjoyed it much though the pictures you presented here.
Awesome site! Thanks!
No, I'm not giving up on my layout by a long shot.
But on the to-do list is to eventually replace the code 80 track with more realistic code 55. I figured at that point I can re-arrange the trackage some to make things more conducive to operations.
Dave
Maybe i'm a little weird here,I did my new layout 2 years ago with switching in mind and built it that way, I have 2 Mains that are continuous run with several spurs,bypasses and industries to switch,all this is attached to a 2' x 10' yard that serves both Mains, I have Car cards,and generate switchlists on 2 computers in the train room,1 for the Yard and one for the Mains,I am ready for an Ops session of about 4 people,but prefer at this point to do the Ops session on my own it takes usually 4 hours over a 2 night period ( includes building the switchlists and getting the waybills in the cards) and I have to say I really enjoy it, Time flies by and I can't wait to get back to the layout to finish,I'm sure I will have an Ops session with a crew in the near future, but for now I am enjoying it on my own.
Mike
I used to try and keep a couple trains running round and round. But after doing some serious trainwatching, I now know better. I've heard trains call the dispatcher, and be told, "pull down to the signal gentlemen, and take a number". Friday night, a northbound GTW train called for a route and was told, "there's a lot of congestion right now, up at Delray, so you might be there a while". The cond replied, "understand, we are at the back of the parade". The train slowly approached Wyandotte and stopped short of the crossing. Wyandotte, Mich is the last place a long northbound train can stop, without blocking a lot of crossings, so they hold a lot of trains at Wyandotte, when there is congestion in the Detroit area. A while later, the dispatcher gave the train ahead of him, a different route around the congestion, and hearing that transmission, without being called, the GTW moved on up to the next block. He had four units, but only three were operating. He had called the dispatcher, to say he had a bad engine, and would be dropping it off at Pontiac. I mention all of this, only to point out all the operating possibilities. Real trains do stop and sit on the mainline, quite frequently. The dispatcher also arranged for two other trains to meet in Detroit, and swap trains. They do this quite a bit, where they will swap trains and take the other train back the way they came. They also frequently arrange to go dead somewhere, and a fresh crew has to be brought out in a van or cab, to bring the train in. They try to arrange a convenient spot to "time out".
Then to completely confuse me, NS train 30A, comes north through Wyandotte with a old GTW, and an IC loco both facing forward. Now I know all about runthrough power, but I've seen the same two locos many times on the CN Shoreline sub, and have no idea why they would be on the NS, coming from Toledo. Again, new operating possibilities.
I thought you couldn't do OP's in N scale??
Rail fanning is fun. Switching is fun. But I never really got the whole way bill, car card, radio head set wearing OP's thing. Seems more like work instead of fun. Just not my cup of tea.
loathar wrote: I thought you couldn't do OP's in N scale??Rail fanning is fun. Switching is fun. But I never really got the whole way bill, car card, radio head set wearing OP's thing. Seems more like work instead of fun. Just not my cup of tea.
Actually, if part of a team, ops are a real gas.
Getting the car cars set-up takes a little work, but once you do, the cards just follow the cars and, if done right, are self-correcting. One layout I run is going to have it's 30th birthday this month--that's 30 years of ops. The guy rarely has to "fix" the car card system. Occasionally, a card gets lost, but that's about it. If the waybill gets lost, or the car gets mis-delivered, the default returns it to the yard, where it gets a new waybill.
No set-up for ops sessions.
Dave Vollmer wrote:I think a big failing on my part was that I chose a plan that looked good to me, built it, and then thought about how to operate it.I got it backwards.Instead, I ought to consider first how I want to operate and then plan the layout accordingly.When I chose the plan, I realized it would look great running at shows, which I sometimes do. But what looks great at shows ('roundy-rounding mostly) doesn't automatically translate into satisfaction at home.The next step for me is to perhaps alter the layout somewhat by choosing a different part of the Pennsy for it to represent. The Middle Division is just too big to represent on a door in any scale.
The club layout I was in was single track with passing sidings, and there was a long hidden double track to loop back to the other end of the layout. Public shows we just ran trains around one direction. We talked with the public and described the club, but usually the public just want to see things go. Real run sessions had peddle freights, thru freights, passenger, interchaging, whatever, dispatcher operated, with car cards.
I want to be able to set up a train on my layout, make it do a run, it might go loopy, or not, and then finish at its destination, or then I might set up a peddle and hit a puzzler switching area. The layout needs lots of variety put in. You can make a loopy layout and still have everything else. Prolly after a day of work I want to come home and fire up a train and let 'er fly.
Since I am doing N&W and mountaneous regions, my trains are going to go slow and traverse rock edge mountains and take a long time to go over even short areas of the layout. The DCC and sound revolution just enhances the experience more.
N&W main was mostly double track but its branches were single. I'm still designing and adapting as I go, but it will be made interesting. Consider that I will be doing multiple railroads, interchanging will move whole groups of cars to the next line and run a different railroad as I go.
I've done the roundy with modules, its very restricting what you want to do based on the standards I had, I have higher aspairations. I can still do the roundy if I wanna, its being designed in, I need a shorty loop track to train test and the layout will have some kind of way to loopy train continuous. But the point to point will stick.
I also won't have the all traditional big yard, turntable, instead I have points of traffic origination, like the DownTown Chicago South Water area. Big trains come and go there. Its so different than the offline staging area because here you've got the origination point modeled and iot has a lot of variety in it to boot.
Like the Pennsy interchanging with the EBT, I will do the same kind of thing with the N&W and an abandoned narrow gauge line I de-abandon.
It sounds like you have a plan beyond your current situation and thats where I have been and iots just now coming to reality.
I like 'roundy-roundy, but I plan to set up my trains from two yards before setting them loose on the main. With an all double-track main, I will be able to switch with one train while the other is looping. Sounds good to me.
I don't think I will get interested in cards and manifests, but I may use track warrants and slow orders because that's what I hear in north Texas on the BNSF Madill Sub.
Eventually, I want to add an around-the-wall simulation of the Gilluly Loops in southeastern Utah. It will be double track, with a loop at the "top." I would like to be able to send a long train with a helper up the loops, park the train at the top, and uncouple the helper and run it back down. I also want to run a train up the loops and just let it come back down, while I am switching on the flat part. The challenge (for me, at least) will be to get the switcher or local out of the way before the through train comes back. A final scenario will be to run one train up the loops while another is coming down, and find track to keep them going on the flat part.
I am sticking with DC, so another challenge will be to keep the block controls and directions straight. Plus, my reversing loop is on the inside of my flat part double main oval, so the through train coming down will hit the outer main oval, cross over to the inner main oval, go through the reversing loop, and go back out to the outer main oval to head back up the mountain. Simulating track warrants should help that a bit.
I think that's about as deep into operations as I want to go.
I agree but, to each his/her own. I like to run but every now and then I will switch the industries with the local. I guess it is what you mostly see in real life. I live next to the mainline and it is a rare occassion to see any switching.
Let me say upfront that my first HO layout was in 1958 while in college. It was the obligatory 4 by 8 round and round layout. I graduated and moved to a new state and town, with the layout board, with track still attached, strapped on the roof of my car (A true Okie). When I arrived in Topeka KS, I met some other modelers and discovered proto railroading, yes it was there in the 50's.
Since then I have built four layouts, all point to point, staging yards at each end. The current Santa Fe was started in 1988 on the bones of the previous layout. It exists today and gives me the operations I want. It is on three decks, there are five different staging yards, the top deck is the Santa Fe in 1989 running from Oklahoma City (out of staging) to Guthrie OK and then into staging. That line provides a lot of switching and road running. From Guthrie the layout descends to the middle deck. This is the heart of the railroad, representing the old Enid District from Guthrie to Enid. It was 30 mph track, a few towns in between, and during harvest handled more grain trains than you could imagine. Enid at that time was third largest in America in storage capacity. Enid also was home of the Champlin refinery. The Rock Island and Frisco also came there.
Enid yard is modeled, and from there goes down to the lowest deck. This is the remaining part of the old Enid district running to Kiowa KS and connecting with the transcon (staging).
In addition the Frisco line from Enid, which comes out of Tulsa (staging) runs to Avard OK on the Santa Fe transcon, and then to Waynoka OK visible staging. The area the layout fits in is 28ft by 35 ft. Now at age 71, I can't imagine ever building another layout, but this one has kept my interest. One last thing, the Santa Fe in real life sold off the old Orient in western OK about the period I model. I turned it into a regional short line, the Oklahoma Northern, which has staging, joins the Enid District on the lowest deck at Cherokee OK and runs over trackage rights through Oklahoma City, moving grain trains to Texas.
Obviously after all these years since 1988 the layout is finished, although I do find renewal projects, it is running well with DCC, and is what I had always hoped for since I got my first Lionel at age 6 months for Christmas from my dad, a Santa Fe engineer.
Bob
When I'm running the layout by myself or with my son, we'll pretty much just run through the train sequence, pulling a train out of staging, stopping at the yard to do pick ups and set outs, maybe change the power and caboose, and send it on its way around the layout.
Andy likes to switch cars (surprising for a lad who supposedly suffers from an attention deficit...) and will take a local out and spend a delightful hour with it. While he's doing that, I'll be working the yard setting up the next block to be switched, or just hang out by the main line and watch the thru traffic. I'm also set up to be able to run a second train out of staging, causing Andy to have to clear the main to let the priority freight move on through.
At this point, I have all (well, most) of the car cards and fair number of waybills set up, but we mainly work off of switch lists that are made up at the spur of the moment. If I was a little more disciplined, I could probably set it up so the my sessions between sessions don't mess up the system that much...
But the layout really shines when there's five or six guys available. That gives me a dedicated yard crew, someone to man the switches at Maryland Jct., a crew that does nothing but switch the paper mill, and a couple of road freight crews. Again, we are pretty informal, using sequential dispatching and "as you go" switch lists, but last weekend we recorded over 20 train movements in about 4 and half hours.
Some guys have to drive over 2 hours to get to my house, but they keep coming back... I must be doing something right!
And BTW, Dave, if you end up finishing your career either around DC or at Dover AFB, Delaware doesn't tax military retirement income, and Seaford is only 25 minutes from my house! (It's also on the old PRR Delmarva Division... still very active moving chicken feed for Jim Perdue)
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net