Originally posted by ejbulman I agree with Slotracer, there are a lot of odd characters in this hobby. Every show I go to, there are always "hygenically challenged" creatures. Most frequently, there are those unfortunates that have nothing else going for them in their lives, so that they have to immerse themselves in the minutiae of the hobby. Sometimes, they can be very contentious. Pathetic losers..... I don't want to step on any toes here, so I apologize in advance. My observation is that most all of my hobbies seem to be getting out of the price range of most people who have several different hobbies. When I look at my hobbies - model railroading, golf, fly fishing, bicycling, playing drums - it is getting difficult to enjoy any of these unless you focus on just one hobby. Add to that the fact that activities in most of these areas seem to be dominated/run by those odd characters who absolutely live only for that single hobby. As a result, when I play golf, I'm surrounded by people who look down on my driver because it's not a $400 model. Ditto for those out on the river who look down on my $25 K-Mart fly rod. I don't mention to too many people that I like model railroading, because, living in a resort area, I'm not interested in becomming "railroad buddies" with some summer person who has the "best railroad money can buy," and who will expect me to share his unbridled (and well financed) passion. Anyway, I've been away from the hobby for some 20 years, and some prices don't seem too out of line, while others definitely are. The problem with me, and I suspect many of you, is that my discretionary dollars are being pulled in too many directions. I have $250 burning a hole in my pocket. Do I buy a airbrush kit, new waders, a new lob wedge, or a new cymbal? The multi-hobby person just has a bit of a problem paying the prices that the single hobby folks are willing and able to pay. Reply The Watcher Member sinceFebruary 2004 12 posts Posted by The Watcher on Friday, February 20, 2004 11:11 AM Think cost is a big problem. While it's good to see a lot of the finely detailed models coming out I don't see very much quality mid priced or low priced products coming out in all areas of the hobby. This is especially true for locomotives no matter what the scale. Reply steveblackledge Member sinceNovember 2002 From: GB 973 posts Posted by steveblackledge on Monday, February 16, 2004 1:58 PM cost is my enemy being a peasant in the wilds of the UK, you think it's expensive over there, we get stung for everything thanks to the Briti***ax collector etc etc , an average price for a loco is £70- about $135. i buy all my BNSF stuff off ebay or from Trainland, New York , great to deal with you in the USA, the robbers, sorry shop keapers here charge up to £95- $170 for an athearn SD75 i can get for $60 from you guys, god bless the USA and the WORLDS GREATEST HOBBY Reply JR42 Member sinceOctober 2003 1 posts Posted by JR42 on Monday, February 16, 2004 1:14 PM My biggest problem with HO is that I can't find a lot of nice accessories(real operating crossing gates, uncouplers, lighted cabooses, other operating things you could get in S and O gauges). I know it's more for the modeling, and I enjoy that, but I also would like more of what I remember as a kid with my American Flyer. Where are these things?? And if they're not around, why not? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 13, 2004 4:02 PM LACK OF SPACE IN MY GARAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![banghead] Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 13, 2004 2:33 PM Don't let anyone fool you this is not a great hobby and if you get raised eyebrows, well you have a clear target to spit in their eye. Liquidcross, let me tell you, my son-in-law deals in comics and is in the process of building a $300,000 house. His private collection is estimated to be close to 3/4 of a million. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 13, 2004 1:40 PM QUOTE: Or maybe this hobby needs to come to the brink of extinction in order to shake out the elements (whatever they are) behind the run-up in cost? Several times over the past years I've thought the hobby couldn't survive much longer given that so many young people seem to be interested primarily in computers, video games, etc. (I can't criticize too much b/c I love those things too!). However, it seems to keep plugging along somehow. From what I have observed the hobby is actually really popular with youth in Japan and Germany, etc. I think that the more the hobby advances in terms of technology (e.g. DCC, computer control, animation, etc.), the more likely younger people will be interested. Maybe then it would be considered a "cool" hobby! [:D] Reply Edit liquidcross Member sinceJanuary 2004 116 posts Posted by liquidcross on Friday, February 13, 2004 1:06 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by chadnark Too many times I've told people I was into model railroads and/or model trains and have received raised eyebrows, a snicker, or a laugh in return. I think the first thing a lot of folks tend to think is "grown man still plays with toys" or "get a life" or "geek that has way too much time on his hands." [:-^] It's the same reaction I get with radio control cars, which I'm also interested in. Sounds familiar. I get the same thing, because I also read comics, collect classic video game systems, and vintage Transformers. [:D] N scale late 1970s-early 1980s Chessie System layout in progress. Reply MAbruce Member sinceNovember 2001 From: US 1,720 posts Posted by MAbruce on Friday, February 13, 2004 12:15 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by chadnark It's the general attitude that most people not involved in the hobby have regarding model railroading. Most people still see it as a juvenile undertaking. [D)] Great point! There is a "fringe" perception to this hobby. Certainly some regions have better participation than others, but in all I think it has failed to penetrate the mainstream. Now this could easily lead to discussions on how the hobby could better be promoted, etc. But I don’t want to go there. The point I’m leading to with this is that if there was a better market penetration into the mainstream, then this would enviably have a favorable impact on cost as manufacturing volumes would increase to meet demand. Maybe there would be less limited runs, more for the distributors in volume (so they are not such a factor on retail prices), and more manufacturers willing to jump into the market (competition is always good). Or maybe this hobby needs to come to the brink of extinction in order to shake out the elements (whatever they are) behind the run-up in cost? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 13, 2004 10:43 AM In my opinion the problem with this hobby is not price, selection or lack of great stuff, etc. [:D] It's the general attitude that most people not involved in the hobby have regarding model railroading. Most people still see it as a juvenile undertaking. [D)] First of all, non-MR people (who are certainly in the majority) quite often do not understand the distinction between the "toy" train sets they might have seen as a child under the Christmas tree and the hobby of model railroading, which, in my opinion, is a wonderful union between nostalgia & history, art, carpentry, electronics, etc, etc. Don't get me wrong, there's a place for both genres (i.e. toy and realistic); I guess my point is that most people fail to see model trains as a respectable (for lack of a better word) hobby such as baseball cards, stamp collecting, hunting & fishing, etc. Too many times I've told people I was into model railroads and/or model trains and have received raised eyebrows, a snicker, or a laugh in return. I think the first thing a lot of folks tend to think is "grown man still plays with toys" or "get a life" or "geek that has way too much time on his hands." [:-^] It's the same reaction I get with radio control cars, which I'm also interested in. In this regard the hobby is misunderstood. I think the problem would be alleviated if the hobby was a little more mainstream. Rarely do I meet anyone in the general public who is also interested in the hobby. Only at my LHS or train show do I see these people. I think there is a bit of negative stigma attached to the hobby (or at least the idea of adults being involved in it). I have to admit that, being a single 30-yr old male, I usually avoid the topic of hobbies or model trains when I met people, particularly females. I'm always afraid they're going to see it as juvenile. Don't get me wrong. This doesn't stop me from being really interested in the hobby. I still visit my LHS's on a regular basis and I'm still always planning that proverbial dream layout. Just my observation of "what is wrong with the hobby." [8D] Still the WORLD'S GREATEST HOBBY!!!! Reply Edit CNJ831 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 3,150 posts Posted by CNJ831 on Friday, February 13, 2004 8:54 AM CBQ guy posts,"As for prices and RTR, the sales of this stuff is off the charts, so that's apparently what the vast majority wants." While I will not deny that the sales volume of high end and RTR euipment might be doing well, I will most definitely argue that these are _not_ necessarily what the majority of hobbyists actually want. In talking with a couple of LHS owners, I am being told that high end and RTR sales involve, at best, a modest number of individuals buying large numbers of items, whereas kit and lower priced items are going to a far, far larger number of one-item-at-a-time buyers. I suppose that in the future it might be possible for a very few manufacturers to continue to survive selling brass-like $1,000 plastic engines and cars to say 10% of hobbyists' numbers today but what of the remaining 90% of us? Are we to be progressively shut out of the market over the next decade? And in the same sense, the idea of attempting to bring new people, especially younger individuals, into the hobby becomes an absolute joke. CNJ831 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 13, 2004 8:42 AM Definately the cost of modelling is the major drawback to the hobby (Maybe the only drawback) For young modellers like myself, whose only income is from a summer job, it is really hard to keep up with the high prices of the hobby. Reply Edit CBQ_Guy Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: North Central Illinois 1,458 posts Posted by CBQ_Guy on Thursday, February 12, 2004 2:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bcammack It's very difficult for me to justify (to myself or my spouse) more than about $50 for a locomotive. I just want one that runs good and looks fairly right when running. Same here, but that's because I'm one of those nasty, low life "good enough" modelers. Now, it has been established that good enough is a subjective term -- it means something different to each of us. My level is similar to that of Allen McClelland who is often credited, I believe, with coining the term. Allen looks to the prototype, but if the cars and locos look like cars and locos while operating, well that's "good enough". But I consider myself a model railroader more so than a railroad modeler. As for prices and RTR, the sales of this stuff is off the charts, so apparently that's what the vast majority wants. In a way that's OK because that's how a capitalistic system is "supposed" to work. I'm just not in that majority. I do wonder how kids, which by the way are supposed to be being hotly sought into the hobby as it's future, are supposed to afford this on the few bucks they make shoveling snow, delivering newspapers, mowing lawns, whatever. MR has the build a layout for 500 dollar project, as if that's a good thing. To a young kid starting out, that's BIG BUCKS so I don't really know what a viable solution is. "Paul [Kossart] - The CB&Q Guy" [In Illinois] ~ Modeling the CB&Q and its fictional 'Illiniwek River-Subdivision-Branch Line' in the 1960's. ~ Reply bcammack Member sinceDecember 2002 From: US 403 posts Posted by bcammack on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 10:30 AM About the state of the hobby with regards to complaints about Price and Limited Runs: Margins have been sqeezed to practically nothing in the mid-range and has driven manufacturers to pursue profits in the high end, so you end up with exquisitely detailed, feature rich short runs that have margins capable of sustaining the business. This is unfortunate as it has the effect of "eating the seed corn" by ignoring and driving out the average "Joe Lunchbucket" modeller who simply will not pay $700 for a locomotive. (not a dimunition. I put myself in the "Joe Lunchbucker" category) There are two things that have caused this. First, internet/mail-order price competition is bleeding the local brick & mortar hobby shops white. One of the reasons that Horizon is tearing up the old distribution agreements for Athearn is to throw a life-jacket to the LHS sector by preserving margins for them. Second, with apologies to Walt Kelly, as Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us." We demand more features, more incredible detail, and reserve new items as soon as they are announced. Then we complain about the system. I would hate to have us for customers... :) I have lousy eyesight and can't see most of the stuff that everybody else is oohing and aahhing over unless I put on my OptiVisor and hold the darned thing up to a strong light, so none of it really projects value to me. It's very difficult for me to justify (to myself or my spouse) more than about $50 for a locomotive. I just want one that runs good and looks fairly right when running. Regards, Brett C. Cammack Holly Hill, FL Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 8:32 AM Price! Yes, I expect prices to go up with detail and quality. But when Design Preservation was sold the most detailed and best value line went up considerably. Athearn Genesis engines should be more. But the reasonably detailed quality rolling stock I relied on nearly doubled in about 5 years -- same ones, no more quality or detail. I applaud the more detailed and better items available. I will buy some of them. However, resonably priced less detailed items are getting harder to find. Stuebsrr Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 3:20 AM In 1972 A Ford F150 only cost $2475.00 brand new. (I still have the receipt my father paid for the truck that became my first vehicle when I turned 16.) I just bought the most recent version of that same truck with 4 doors, and paid $28,000.00 for it. Talk about WOW. So in relative terms, we are paying less for locos now than we did (Sorry, just a stupid statistical comparison that means nothing in real life, prices are still to high.) Price is a big problem. There are not enough services for the money. I see that for a lot of modelers it is hard to find someone who will stand by them and answer questions without copping an attitude. I am lucky, I have a great local shop, and money for the hobby is not a huge issue in my life (read: great wife, and no kids.) So, I understand that my reality is a little skewed sometimes. I hope this entire economy thing comes back around. Our jobless rate has not improved enough, and inflation is beyond calculation compared to the rest of the world... which is not helping the unemployment thing. But, we still have an awesome country... I mean, we are all sitting in front of computers here complaining about the pricing of non-essential stuff! Reply Edit ShaunCN Member sinceJune 2003 From: Sarnia, Ontario 534 posts Posted by ShaunCN on Monday, February 9, 2004 6:05 PM Prices,Prices,Prices. There just to high for some of us. I'm still running locos that were my dad's from 1974, because i can only afford a few new ones(the price of the loco in 1974 was $5,wouldn't that be cool if prices were like that now). Other than that thing in the hobby are great besides the people in clubs who do not let you run your loco because its not good enough........ derailment? what derailment? All reports of derailments are lies. Their are no derailments within a hundreed miles of here. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 9, 2004 5:50 PM For me the main gripe with the model railroading industry is the high prices now being charged. I for one am not going to pay $34 for one of Athearn's ready to run genesis boxcars. And to people that have notice less and less spare parts being available, one possibility is that manufacturers may do that on purpose. i mean they don't have a certain spare part you may have to buy a whole kit from them again. I will be saving money from now on by going with cheaper manufacturers such as Model Die Casting, Accurail, Model Power, and Bowser for my freight car kits. I will buy any future Athearn locomotives(not ready to run ones) at model railroad flea markets. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 6, 2004 7:44 PM If you are living in a country with runaway inflation then you will notice that foreign imports are changing prices almost daily. The sorry state of the US$ which has been plummeting all century is, as the US administration has pointed out, a golden opportunity for Americans to clean up in the export business. They seem to be doing this very well, more millionaires have been created in the last 3 years than in the previous 30. I don't know what a Walmart is but I probably don't want one. Reply Edit CBQ_Guy Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: North Central Illinois 1,458 posts Posted by CBQ_Guy on Friday, February 6, 2004 6:48 PM Prices, advance reservations, and limited runs are at the top of my "female dog List". "Paul [Kossart] - The CB&Q Guy" [In Illinois] ~ Modeling the CB&Q and its fictional 'Illiniwek River-Subdivision-Branch Line' in the 1960's. ~ Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 6, 2004 1:23 PM I agree. Price is my biggest concern. I think it has gotten a little carried away with itself. I also feel that lack of parts is starting to become a big problem. I have several kitbash projects stalled becasue of lack of parts. (Also no LHS also is a problem) Due to my location I have to alot of mail order. As such it is very big pain in the butt when what I need is out of stock. Another problem I have is the arrogence that alot of the so called "Rivet Counters" (i.e. Tony Keoster) are displaying today. Its like if your not modeling a prototype, why are you here? While I view my self as a prototype oriented modeler, I am by no means so caught up with it that it has become the dominate factor in my modeling. One of my many railraods I model is a Proto-Freelance, and another one I am considering is a projection off off the old 1970's Tyco "Chattanooga" roadname. Any of you who finds that disturbing, I truely feel sorry for you. James Reply Edit the-big-blow Member sinceDecember 2001 130 posts Posted by the-big-blow on Friday, February 6, 2004 12:36 PM I have noticed that in these tough economic times that things are not just flying off the shelves. I agree we are blessed with great quality products but feel the chinese war machine is making it very hard for all of us to keep up(and besides are very rarely on time) . I wish manufactures would just turn it down a notch or too. Most of my intrest revolves around collecting locomotives, especially hard to find brass items with emphasis on UP. There IS a point where I draw the line on price, and will not purchase a new brass locomotive at any cost. $750 bucks for loco they've gotta be mad( A plain SD40-2!! its not like its a GAS Turbine or something). Some of these dealers don't offer layaway on any of these items(and if they do they want to charge me a Finance fee) . I bought a great deal of models in the early 90's when they were about half the price of todays. Of course I didn't make as much money as I do now. I am single without a family so if I want it I just spend money. I know alot of modelers that have become so obsessed with having it or getting it that it seems they throw reason aside. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 6, 2004 10:20 AM hey gang, i usually dont comment on the forums, i just read, but i have to agree about the priceing of the hobby. its really getting ridiculous. i dont make a lot of money, plus im married and have children. to me model railroading is a stress reliver. i have loved it ever since i was 6 years old, and im now 35. seems like the companies are not considering the not so wealthy when it comes to priceing. just like the new Athearn RTR line, their just a glorified box kit. i tested a 80$ RTR against the same loco in the traditional (do it your self box) at my local hobby shop just yesterday. the results.......... the RTR was just as noisy and rattley as the un assembled kit. the weights of the two locos were the same also, light. used to be that Athearn un-assembled kits were the way to go for the hobbiest that couldnt afford the Kato's AND Protos, now since the sale of Athearn, it seems as if the price is going up, and the quality the same. Now, dont get me wrong, 95% of my rolling stock and loco's are Athearn, i think highly of them, but they need to remember us "not so fortunate modellers" that still dream of building their own miniture empires. steve[:(] Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 6, 2004 9:59 AM Yes Like Slotracer and ejbulman I see the weirdos at the shows etc...One of my other hobbies is Amateur Radio (That's my old call sign I'm using for my username, my current call is W4IK) and man you see the same type of "creatures" at the hamfests(Amateur Radio swapmeets). I get the same looks/concerns from my wife. I just keep telling myself that for every "strange" person there's got to be ten 'normal" people. And hey individuality is what makes the world go round, right? BTW Amateur Radio is going through some of the same issues. i.e. Morse Code users vs non Morse Code users - akin to the prototype vs freelancers. Using manufactured radios vs scratchbuilt radios(Homebrew in Amateur Radio parlance)...Sound familiar?? Aging of the population...bemoaning the lack of newcomers,etc. It still does seem that price is the number one concern for model railroading. Anyway this thread got me thinking...and I don't mean to hijack the thread but.....I wonder if any hobby has ever priced itself out of existence? Greg Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 6, 2004 9:27 AM I agree with Slotracer, there are a lot of odd characters in this hobby. Every show I go to, there are always "hygenically challenged" creatures. Most frequently, there are those unfortunates that have nothing else going for them in their lives, so that they have to immerse themselves in the minutiae of the hobby. Sometimes, they can be very contentious. Pathetic losers..... Then again, I am there, too........... Also, price is a factor. Remember though, the manufacturers need to make a profit, and also need to make enough to invest in research and development. We are getting better products, but we are paying more for them. Considering that there is a limited market in the hobby, we are not doing too bad either price wise or product wise. All I want are more HO American autos from 1960-85. Reply Edit the-big-blow Member sinceDecember 2001 130 posts Posted by the-big-blow on Friday, February 6, 2004 8:55 AM Like i said its better to buy an MTH "O" scale if you want a $700 Gas Turbine. Reply AggroJones Member sinceJuly 2002 From: California 3,722 posts Posted by AggroJones on Thursday, February 5, 2004 10:51 PM The general summation is that price is the hobby's largest problem. I need Walmart, but they still are evil! "Being misunderstood is the fate of all true geniuses" EXPERIMENTATION TO BRING INNOVATION http://community.webshots.com/album/288541251nntnEK?start=588 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 5, 2004 9:34 PM Price. $700.00 for a Lionel Gas Turbine!? And in HO, too!? It's VERY ridiculous and id getting out of hand. A locomotive that costs $300.00 looks to me worth no more than $225.00. Yup, price is a diffenent issue, and yes, WALMART IS EVIL!!!!!! Reply Edit 12 Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online There are no community member online Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
QUOTE: Or maybe this hobby needs to come to the brink of extinction in order to shake out the elements (whatever they are) behind the run-up in cost?
QUOTE: Originally posted by chadnark Too many times I've told people I was into model railroads and/or model trains and have received raised eyebrows, a snicker, or a laugh in return. I think the first thing a lot of folks tend to think is "grown man still plays with toys" or "get a life" or "geek that has way too much time on his hands." [:-^] It's the same reaction I get with radio control cars, which I'm also interested in.
QUOTE: Originally posted by chadnark It's the general attitude that most people not involved in the hobby have regarding model railroading. Most people still see it as a juvenile undertaking. [D)]
QUOTE: Originally posted by bcammack It's very difficult for me to justify (to myself or my spouse) more than about $50 for a locomotive. I just want one that runs good and looks fairly right when running.
"Being misunderstood is the fate of all true geniuses"
EXPERIMENTATION TO BRING INNOVATION
http://community.webshots.com/album/288541251nntnEK?start=588