Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Tank kills Pennsy steam Loco? Hollywood trains again!

7599 views
94 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January 2004
  • 790 posts
Posted by Tilden on Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:21 PM

M 1's have Chabum armor, so the occupants would be in the "safest" place.  Still, he should have parked it head on facing the oncomingtrain with the turret turned away.  Hey, they may find a round or two....

Tilden 

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: Ashtabula, Ohio
  • 158 posts
Posted by 2-8-8-0 on Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:46 PM
 marknewton wrote:
 2-8-8-0 wrote:

As has been mentioned a steam explosion could well result...


Why do you think that? How many instances where a collision or derailment has lead to a boiler explosion can you cite?

Cheers,

Mark.

lets not compare hitting a car to hitting a tank. Rather lets imagine what would happen if the loco hits another extremely massive object, like....68 tons of M1 tank. In "Reflections of the Nickel Plate Road" one of the first photographs is of a pair of steamers (i think both are 4-6-0s) that had a head on collision in western ohio. One loco was smashed underneath its own tender, the second had disintegrated into unrecognizable components. In both locomotives it was painfully obvious that the boiler would not be able to maintain pressure. I dont mean "explosion" as in KABOOM, destroying the entire locomotive. What perhaps should have been said was that a "rapid, vigorous, and potentially harmful" escape of steam could have resulted. I dont know why you have so much reason to doubt this, but if a collision like this were a real world scenario, i would definately want to be somewhere else.

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: North Central Texas
  • 2,370 posts
Posted by Paul W. Beverung on Thursday, February 14, 2008 7:48 PM
The K4 is 1 1/2 inch scale 7 1/2 inch gauge. A very nice locomotive. My question is. " What is a K4 doing in Kansas?" I own 1 1/2 inch scale and 4 inch scale 7 1/2 inch gauge equipment. I've had film companys use my equipment for a music video. It was real interesting especially when the female lead changed wardrobe with out a dressing room. She didn't wear underwear. My wife grabed me and covered my eyes. Rats.
Paul The Duluth, Superior, & Southeastern " The Superior Route " WETSU
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • 1,939 posts
Posted by marknewton on Thursday, February 14, 2008 7:13 PM
 dehusman wrote:

 marknewton wrote:
Why do you think that? How many instances where a collision or derailment has lead to a boiler explosion can you cite?

The most famous example is the staged collision on the MKT between two steam engines.  The boilers did explode and resulted in several fatalites and numerous injuries.

Dave H.


Ah, yeah - the infamous "Crash at Crush". I 'd forgotten about that one. What a boneheaded exercise that was! Big Smile [:D]

Still, my point is valid. The number of derailments or collisions that led to boiler explosions is very, very small.

Cheers,

Mark.
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: Omaha, NE
  • 10,621 posts
Posted by dehusman on Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:58 PM

 wjstix wrote:
Steam locomotives are a series of long narrow steel tubes holding steam under high pressure.

Almost.  They are long narrow steel tubes holding very hot water under high pressure.

What actually causes the explosion isn't the pressure, its a sudden drop in pressure.  When the the boiler develops a major leak and drops the pressure from 250 psi to atmosphere within seconds, all the superheated water in the boiler immediately turns to steam and attempts to expand.  Followed by a big boom.

Dave H.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Mpls/St.Paul
  • 13,892 posts
Posted by wjstix on Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:30 PM
 dehusman wrote:

 marknewton wrote:
Why do you think that? How many instances where a collision or derailment has lead to a boiler explosion can you cite?

The most famous example is the staged collision on the MKT between two steam engines.  The boilers did explode and resulted in several fatalites and numerous injuries.

Dave H.

I think that was the one where the newsreel photographer a quarter mile away lost an eye to a bolt sailing like a bullet.

Steam locomotives are a series of long narrow steel tubes holding steam under high pressure. If in a crash one of the pipes got even a whole in it, all the steam in the entire engine would try to escape through that hole all at once - causing an incredible explosion.

I would think a steam engine speeding along and crashing into a large modern tank could sustain damage to a steam pipe causing an explosion. If it would happen every time, or one time out of 10, or whatever, I don't know. It maybe isn't even likely, but it is plausible.

Stix
  • Member since
    September 2006
  • 411 posts
Posted by wobblinwheel on Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:08 PM
It's strange how Hollywood and Pennsy seem to have a "connection?" Any of you seen the movie "Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events"? (with Jim Carrey). There's a scene with the kids trapped in a car on the tracks and there's a Pennsy T1, 4-4-4-4 Duplex bearing down on them! I think someone who's in charge of some of these special-effects has a thing for Pennsylvania steam!

Mike C.

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 55 posts
Posted by jimk on Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:35 PM

I noticed the diesel horn too, and that would have been an easy fix.  Wish they would get that stuff right.  As for production quality, I think it was pretty good.  The scene probably only lasted 15 seconds total, so they can't be expected to spend tons of money on just 15-20 seconds of air time.  And they did avoid having them explode, which was a nice touch.  It was perfectly beliveable they would have a PRR locomotive.  Steamtown USA in Scranton has a UP Big Boy, so a museum in Kansas could have a PRR locomotive.

Jim 

Modeling in Z, HO and G John 3:16
  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: THE FAR, FAR REACHES OF THE WILD, WILD WEST!
  • 3,672 posts
Posted by R. T. POTEET on Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:21 PM
 jimk wrote:

..........it seems like the engine would have at least derailed, I don't know about it rolling the tank over like it did.  It seems like it would have pushed it off to the side..........


Somewhere in my reading I encountered a vignette about an incident that took place in Germany; I believe this occurred just after the 1945 capitulation. An inebriated tanker decided to celebrate VE-day by taking his fraulein out for a joy-ride in a TD, got onto a railroad track, and high-centered this vehicle on a bridge. An American railway battalion had rebuilt a strafing-damaged German Loke and was out for a pre-dawn test spin. Loke came out of a curve onto the bridge doing about 50 klicks where it struck the TD a glancing blow rolling it into the water on one side of the bridge while the force of the collision derailed it into the water on the opposite side. The train crew had joined the birds prior to the collision.

This article said that it was nearly two years before the Bundesbahn - or whatever they called themselves in those occupation days - got around to retrieving both the TD and the loke from the stream. I don't recall the article stating the final disposition of either of these units but TDs were about 7-10 tons lighter than tanks so I would imagine that it had come out on the loosing end of this encounter and was probably junked by the U.S. Army; I am equally sure that the locomotive did not fare too well either. 

From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet

  • Member since
    November 2001
  • From: US
  • 1,720 posts
Posted by MAbruce on Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:17 PM

 AntonioFP45 wrote:
I should have clarified.  "Upper Hand" as far as the occupants' chances of surviving.

Yeah, that was part of what I was talking about too.  I can't see how anyone in either tank or loco would survive.  The tank itself would likely end up a bit more intact, but any occupants wouldn't.  Well, at least I wouldn't want to have been inside to find out.  Shock [:O]

  • Member since
    February 2001
  • From: Wyoming, where men are men, and sheep are nervous!
  • 3,392 posts
Posted by Pruitt on Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:29 AM

The loco was actually a 1/8 scale live steamer.

I've been a fan of Jericho since the first episode, but this nearly ruined it for me. The shots of the steamer were poorly done (the thing looked like a cheap - emphasize cheap - plastic model, not a live steamer) and the diesel horn as it approached the tank was just too much. Add to that the Pennsy Keystone on the smokebox door and what do you have? Crappy production quality!

If my wife hadn't been watching the show too, I probably would have turned it off.

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: Good ol' USA
  • 9,642 posts
Posted by AntonioFP45 on Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:15 AM
I should have clarified.  "Upper Hand" as far as the occupants' chances of surviving.

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


  • Member since
    November 2001
  • From: US
  • 1,720 posts
Posted by MAbruce on Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:46 AM

It's hard to imagine that having an upper hand in that sort of crash would mean very much.  With that much kinetic energy involved - both would lose. 

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: Good ol' USA
  • 9,642 posts
Posted by AntonioFP45 on Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:38 AM

Jericho????

That show still comes on?  I watched it the first year (season). Interesting but just far too depressing for me.  Add to that, a number of the scenes were "technically" inaccurate (typical Hollyweird).

A K4 hitting a modern tank?  The tank, imho, would have the upper hand as it has a very low center of gravity and it's construction includes the use of high strength alloys. 

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


  • Member since
    August 2001
  • From: US
  • 791 posts
Posted by steamage on Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:32 AM
Did you hear the diesel horn on the Pennsy loco?

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • 29 posts
Posted by bportrail on Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:19 AM

Ok, So I'm A Jericho nerd!  The M-1 didn't have any main gun ammo, his only choice was to block the tracks.  You can watch the first season on DVD  (Its good) to find out how a town got A M-1 in the first place. Also, an EMP disabled everything electrical, so the other town pulled the steam loco out of a musuem.

 

Keith

Rob
  • Member since
    October 2006
  • 99 posts
Posted by Rob on Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:03 AM

Guys,

Awsome video link...But what a bummer after seeing that live Pennsy steamer..I don't like my n scale stuff anymore!!!!  Just kidding, but I wouldn't mind having that set up to run around my house with a some hoppers hauling real coal.  I can see the grade crossing over the driveway now...working gates, lights, wow!  ----Rob 

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2004
  • 790 posts
Posted by Tilden on Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:54 AM

Of course it would have helped if he had put a round through the train.  One armour piercing round would take out the boiler front to back.  The loco wouldn't have traveled too far after that.

Derail...yes explode...no?  The M-1 wouldn't explode and if the ammo did go off it is in it's own exterior compartment with blast relief doors to vent the explosion.

Still cool though.

Tilden 

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: Omaha, NE
  • 10,621 posts
Posted by dehusman on Thursday, February 14, 2008 6:32 AM

 marknewton wrote:
Why do you think that? How many instances where a collision or derailment has lead to a boiler explosion can you cite?

The most famous example is the staged collision on the MKT between two steam engines.  The boilers did explode and resulted in several fatalites and numerous injuries.

Dave H.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • 1,939 posts
Posted by marknewton on Thursday, February 14, 2008 5:40 AM
 loathar wrote:

A friend of mine had a book on steam loco accidents. It had pics of a boiler explosion in a round house.


I'm taking a punt here, that you're referring to the incident on the SP at San Antonio in 1912?

It set off the other boilers around it ...


No it didn't - boiler explosions don't "set off" other nearby boilers, since they're almost always due to low water.

...and leveled the whole building. Killed something like 30 people.


All that damage was caused by one loco boiler, which IIRC suffered a fairly rare structural failure while under test - the lap seam on the middle course of the barrel failed due to grooving.

Cheers,

Mark.

(former boilermaker)
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • 1,939 posts
Posted by marknewton on Thursday, February 14, 2008 5:28 AM
 2-8-8-0 wrote:

As has been mentioned a steam explosion could well result...


Why do you think that? How many instances where a collision or derailment has lead to a boiler explosion can you cite?

Cheers,

Mark.
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • 1,939 posts
Posted by marknewton on Thursday, February 14, 2008 5:25 AM
 dinwitty wrote:

I have never seen a boiler explosion but I doubt it would be lots of fire explosions unless the tender used oil. It would be more like a lot of steam flashes the area as water escapes and expands to make steam as its under pressure and flood the near area with steaming water making a dense fog for a short while till it all cools.  All the water could stifle the burning coals in the firebox.


If it's a low-water/dropped crownsheet failure explosion, there won't be any burning coals to be "stifled" by any water. You'll be lucky if the grates and carriers even stay in the firebox.

I haven't seen a boiler explosion first-hand either, but I have seen film of one that was conducted under controlled conditions at the Coatesville, Pa. works of Jacobs-Shupert. At the instant the crown sheet collapsed, there appeared an enormous cloud of steam, soot and dust, shot though with debris from the firebox. The cloud completely enveloped the test site, and it was some minutes before visibility returned.

Cheers,

Mark.
  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: Amish country Tenn.
  • 10,027 posts
Posted by loathar on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:47 PM
 BRAKIE wrote:

As far as boiler explosions I had a uncle killed in a boiler explosion..The locomotive bell landed 7 blocks away in a guy's front lawn while chunks of the boiler was thrown for thousands of feet.House windows was broken for blocks around the yard as was the windows in the yard office and several yard buildings..The whistle was never located..I will spare the gory details concerning the engine crew,a switchman and a carman that was working in the wrong area at the wrong time..

As far as the tank and steam locomotive? The tank will win out and the locomotive would derail..Its reinforced steel.Everything else is Hollywood excitement.

A friend of mine had a book on steam loco accidents. It had pics of a boiler explosion in a round house. It set off the other boilers around it and leveled the whole building. Killed something like 30 people. What a mess!Shock [:O]

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Southwest US
  • 12,914 posts
Posted by tomikawaTT on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:24 PM
 mlehman wrote:

That's my favorite TV show right now. Great to see it back.

The show's CBS website has some info on staging the crash scene. Don't have the link handy, but Google is your friend. I think they used a G-gauge loco to stage it, then CGI-ed the tank into it.

BTW, Hawkins bailed out before the crash. The dude is one cool character!

Actually a 1:12 scale live steam loco - glad they didn't really wreck it!

What I saw in the, "Making of," clip looks pretty reasonable.  The K4 weighs twice as much as the Abrams, backed up by the mass of the following cars - and all of that punch would be delivered right at the front coupler, which isn't that high off the ground.  No question that both machines involved would be prime candidates for recycling (as scrap) and not much else.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:39 PM
tv is way over the top from reality, all cars on tv have some sort of device that when any wheel leaves contact with ground the entire car explodes in a huge fireball, i have worked on a lot of cars, i personally cannot find the device that triggers this, however if a locomotive would clobber a M1 abrams with a weight of almost 70 tons, it would give everything & everybody a huge headache at least. It is like watching the tv show Cops, i am amazed that the same pilot is always in the helicopter narrating the car chase or whatever crime happening, also even on wet or dirt-rock roads the tires always squeal.      
  • Member since
    April 2006
  • 29 posts
Posted by bportrail on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:19 PM

It was a fun episode!  I am glad that show is back on, and Hawkins is greatness!  The premise was the "Bad" town got a Loco working to launch a flank attack on Jericho.  Hawkins had the right idea, and drove the M-1 on the tracks to stop it.  It was a pretty cool scene!

 

Keith

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Joizey
  • 1,983 posts
Posted by SteamFreak on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:16 PM

Here's the link to the "making of" video.

http://www.cbs.com/primetime/jericho/video/video.php?

This is a show I wanted to watch, but kept forgetting about, and I ended up so far behind that I didn't want to start in the middle. I'll have to catch up on the Sci-Fi channel.

So why are they running a K4 outfitted with an air horn?

  • Member since
    October 2001
  • From: OH
  • 17,574 posts
Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:14 PM

As far as boiler explosions I had a uncle killed in a boiler explosion..The locomotive bell landed 7 blocks away in a guy's front lawn while chunks of the boiler was thrown for thousands of feet.House windows was broken for blocks around the yard as was the windows in the yard office and several yard buildings..The whistle was never located..I will spare the gory details concerning the engine crew,a switchman and a carman that was working in the wrong area at the wrong time..

As far as the tank and steam locomotive? The tank will win out and the locomotive would derail..Its reinforced steel.Everything else is Hollywood excitement.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 55 posts
Posted by jimk on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:01 PM
Ok, I just watched it again-you can watch the full episode on cbs.com.  There was no fire.  Alot of smoke though, and the tender did come off the track.
Modeling in Z, HO and G John 3:16
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: Omaha, NE
  • 10,621 posts
Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:01 PM

A Pennsy GG1 at speed hit a bulldozer and all it did was derail the front truck of the G.

The tank probably wouldn't explode.  They are designed NOT to explode on impact since in a war they are subject to being "jostled".  Since a K4 is not a huge locomotive it would probably derail and pile up and the tank would be shoved to the side 

Net, neither explodes, but both are wrecked.

Dave H.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!