Worlwide

[Packers#1]

Hi Packers, I just wanted to say that for all the criticism you have gotten for threads, this one turned out to be a really good one.  I for one have found it really enlightening and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Thank you for that. At least not everyone hates me. This thread is my best one, followed by what's better prototype/freelancing.

[marknewton]

I think it would be fair to summarize this thread as having established that some feel that very few modellers outside the US model US prototype, while others suggest that the numbers are perhaps greater than one might imagine.  In other words we don't really have any hard data, but it is clear that there is a vibrant, but smallish following of US railroads in any given country.

Simon, I think there is enough data to draw some conclusions.

If we look at the ads in commercial publications for any country, we find that there are many hobby shops and suppliers who carry US outline models. Presumably they do this because there is demand for them.

Again, the publications for any country usually feature models or layouts based on US prototype. This suggests there are a fair number of modellers working to a standard high enough to get published, and that the magazine editors judge the interest in US prototype high enough to warrant publication.

The exhibition circuits in countries like the UK, France, Germany, the Netherlands and Australia all have substantial numbers of US prototype layouts. This suggests that enough clubs or individuals are modelling US prototype to have a visible public presence.

There are two NMRA regions outside the US, and they are both large and active. The majority of their members model US prototype.

Anecdotal evidence is that posters to this thread are either active modellers of US prototype, or know a lot of people who are.

I agree with your conclusion that there is a vibrant following of US railroads outside the US, but I think that describing it as smallish belies the true picture.

All the best,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Have a look at "Continental Modeller", published by Peco. Almost every issue features US prototype layouts built by people who aren't American and don't live in the US.

Looks like an interesting magazine.. I kind of wish that my local B&N carried that rather then the other British stuff they carry. looks like the current issue is about 40% US prototype and the rest from "other" continents.

Chris 

It's a bloody ripper! My only complaint is that I have to wait a month between issues!

Seriously, it is a very well produced magazine that never fails to impress me. No matter how obscure the subject, chances are it will appear in CM.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Your critics? Are you now a celebrity?

Nah, he's just a legend in his own lunchtime.

The reason CNJ has critics is that he frequently makes assertions that are demonstrably wrong, or he mistakes his opinions for facts.

Cheers,

Mark.

[verheyen]

Perhaps, and their are some great (in my opinion) US-based modular layouts in Europe. Germans seem to love American railways. Must have something to do with wide-open spaces. There are always discussions on sites like Drehscheibe Online asking for US / North American prototype information... Here some examples from Moba-Deutschland that has reports from shows...

• http://www.moba-deutschland.de/imb2006/a604.htm (Mexican, towards bottom of page)
• http://www.moba-deutschland.de/imb2006/a704.htm (America in N, middle of page)
• http://www.moba-deutschland.de/imb2006/a904.htm (Cuba)
• http://www.moba-deutschland.de/imb2007/img_02.htm (Misc)
  
• http://www.moba-deutschland.de/imb2007/img_05.htm (logging) 

As for Americans (or expats living in the US) modeling Europe, I think you'll find that there are more than you think, including displays at shows.  European Train Enthusiasts (ETE) has Chapters that are quite active in that area, in particular those in Southern California, the Bay Area, Chicagoland, Great Lakes (Mostly Michigan), Central New York, Eastern New England, Keystone (PA- Show in Lancaster County and at the Timonium Show). Who's the most active, I don't know, but all have been around for a while.  Central New York has been showing trains since about 2003.  Here some links to their displays.

• Eastern New England: http://www.ete-ene.org/Shows.htm (Last seen at the Amherst show and featured in the first 5 or so images of their slideshow.
• Keystone: They host Euroeast and images of past layouts and modules can be seen on this site by a member at http://www.macbeth66.com/marklin/diary/places_and_events.html. They also bring their modules to the Timonium show.
• Central New York: My Chapter and we've been at it since 2003, most recently developing an n-scale module spec based on Bend Track. More at http://www.philobiblon.com/eisenbahn/pvmodule.shtml
• Great Lakes: Can't get to the links (server issues) but they've shown actively in Michigan most often Ann Arbor, Saline, but also Ohio and Indiana.
  Chicagoland: Ditto, but check out ETE's website at http://www.ete.org (when it's back up) in the Chapter section.
• Bay Area and Souther CA: There are images of their layouts from past EuroWests at http://rides.webshots.com/album/553332964fNiBsZ and http://www.webshots.com/search?query=EuroWest+2006+ETE+San+Diego+Chapter+layout. They also have/had a layout at the Blackhawk Museum.

I could go on, but you get the picture. We're much more active and visible than you might think. Yes, it's much more expensive than NA prototypes, but that doesn't stop us. The dealer in Russian stock at Timonium is Red Star Railways, http://www.redstarrailways.com/, both a manufacturer and reseller. His (Chris White) layout was also featured in Model Railroader about a year or so ago.

Enjoy,

Peter 

andrechapelon

From what I've seen, the portion of Americans modeling foreign prototypes is not high at all and anecdotal evidence would suggest it's lower than American modeling overseas. ETE (European Train Enthusiasts) sets up every year at the Roseville, CA, trainshow in November, but I don't recall any other train show where there was even one active European based layout. Modelers of British prototype in the US seem even scarcer, the exact reverse of the scene in Britain where, as I said, I've never been to an exhibition without seeing at least one US based layout. Then again, the same thing can be said for Continental based layouts in the UK. The Brits will model anything (just check out the latest issue of Continental Modeler).

Andre

[simon1966]

During my career in medical equipment sales I had one memorable sales call when I visited a neurologists office in Alabama and found that he had converted a sizable room in the office into a Marklin layout featuring Swiss trains.  I think we spent more time discussing trains than we ever did my EEG equipment.

Mark, very close to where I grew up in the UK is a hobby shop that is almost exclusively US trains.  I always make a point of popping in when I am over there.  One thing though is that I have never seen a US prototype layout at a train show in the UK.  One semi-regular poster here, John Grant, I know has a show layout based on Chicago that he takes to train shows in the UK, so they obviously exist. I just have not been fortunate enough to see one.

[blainestrains]

While it is difficult and foolish to generalize, I have observed that a measureable number of Italians model North American railways - some do so because of a specific interest (Santa Fe, NYC, narrow gauge, etc) but others do so because better equipment is available at a lower cost (they mostly just want to watch trains running and don't want to have to deal with a lot of performance issues).

I model Italian railways for reasons that are primarily nostalgic - plus it means that I can visit most Stateside hobby shops without spending every last dime in my pocket!

[andrechapelon]

As for Americans (or expats living in the US) modeling Europe, I think you'll find that there are more than you think, including displays at shows. 

It could just be that I haven't been to as many shows lately as I used to. I was a member of ETE for a while and have a considerable collection of ROCO and Fleischmann locos. Unfortunately, I doubt they will ever do more than be displayed on the wall. Still, I really like German steam. I was in Nuremberg for the 150th anniversary of German railways and saw some of the operable locos as well as the model railway displays.

Various trips to Europe also got me somewhat hooked on electrics. I was fortunate to see the last of the DB 194 and OeBB 1020 class in service. Also saw some of the last of the DB 118's. Also got a kick out of watching SBB Ee3/3 switchers http://hem.bredband.net/b543245/SBB_Ee_3-3_16364_at_St_Gallen_in_April_2004.jpg in action at such places as Geneva, Lucerne and Zurich.

Andre

 

 

[marknewton]

I'm afraid that it is you, sir, who is sadly laughable, coming off constantly a wise-*ss and acting as if you are always the ultimate authority on most any hobby subject, inspite of being isolated as you are.

How am I isolated, John? I have internet access, I get a wide range of magazines, I travel extensively, just as you claim to have done. In what way do you consider me to be isolated?

You may well know considerable about the prototype...

There's no may about it. I do "know considerable about the prototype".

but please don't pretend, as you have here, to be knowledgable about the state of the hobby outside your own little microcosm.

The pretence is all yours. You've shown repeatedly that you know little of what happens outside your insular and parochial little corner of the world, and yet you regularly pontificate about it as if you had something worthwhile to say.

I can only speak to what I have seen over the course of many years on numerous trips abroad.

Then, as I wrote before, you obviously travelled with your eyes closed. And your mind as well, by the looks of it.

If you do not find that it meets with your divine aproval, that's unfortunate. I've spent many years examining the hobby's history and its evolution in detail...

Then your methodology as a "historian" is woeful. You've managed to overlook every single bit of evidence that US railroads have a sizeable following outside the US, when that evidence is plain to see.

Many others here don't care for my posts that point out unpleasant facts that are not to their liking but these remain true, nonetheless.

Sorry, they don't. You haven't pointed out any "facts" at all. You've made statements that are wrong, and I've refuted them. I notice you carefully avoided responding to my lengthy listing of overseas magazines, organisations or exhibitions that featured US prototype models or layouts - like the NMRA. Or indeed to those other posters that supported my position with their own observations. The unpleasant fact is that at best, you're badly misinformed - or at worst, you're telling fibs.

(Funny thing that there's two overseas NMRA regions - I wonder what those buggers get up to, since they can't be modelling US protoype?)

So, by all means, rant on in your typical fashion. I won't intrude further on your immense knowledge in this thread regarding the world state of the hobby...as seen from some obscure point in OZ.

OZ? Where's that? I would have thought you're a bit old for babytalk. Can't you spell Australia?

Where I am is no more or less obscure than whatever you call home, John. You won't post any more to this thread because you've been shown up by people whose knowledge of the world extends beyond Cracker, W.Va.

All the best,

Mark.

[andrechapelon]

Sorry, they don't. You haven't pointed out any "facts" at all. You've made statements that are wrong, and I've refuted them. I notice you carefully avoided responding to my lengthy listing of overseas magazines, organisations or exhibitions that featured US prototype models or layouts - like the NMRA. Or indeed to those other posters that supported my position with their own observations......

What Mark says above is the core of the reason why many of us treat your pronouncements with such derision, CNJ. Those of us who disagree with you will provide links (sometimes in considerable quantity) to sites that either back up our position or simply call your pronouncements into question. All you do is make pronouncements from Olympus without providing any shred of actual evidence that your view is the correct one.

Andre

 

[SteamFreak]

Remember that the hobby is dying, Andre, so in a few short years none of this will matter anyway.

[andrechapelon]

Remember that the hobby is dying, Andre, so in a few short years none of this will matter anyway.

Yeah, I know the drill.

The hobby is dying.

Craftsmanship is dead.

Overseas modelers of US railroads are scarce as hen's teeth.

The 50's were the "Golden Age".

A certain party is THE world's greatest living authority on the hobby.

Andre

Actually, the hobby is merely pining for the fjords.

 

[SteamFreak]

Actually, the hobby is merely pining for the fjords.

 

[steinjr]

Actually, the hobby is merely pining for the fjords.

 <Kaboom> NOBODY expects the dying hobby thread. Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

 Grin,
 Stein, also a fan of Monthy Python fan

 

[Packers#1]

Remember that the hobby is dying, Andre, so in a few short years none of this will matter anyway.

I'm only 13. Hobby's not dead. 'Specially considering the National Tennaged Rail Enthusiats Association.

[SteamFreak]

Remember that the hobby is dying, Andre, so in a few short years none of this will matter anyway.

I'm only 13. Hobby's not dead. 'Specially considering the National Tennaged Rail Enthusiats Association.

 

[Big Ugly Waz]

It would appear that this lively debate is winding down, perhaps someone has been buried under an avalanche of FACTS !!!

Cheers,

Warren

[tomikawaTT]

It would appear that this lively debate is winding down, perhaps someone has been buried under an avalanche of FACTS !!!

Cheers,

Warren

As a past president of a fallen flag 1:1 scale railroad said, 40 or so years ago, "It's terrible to witness a murder - especially when it's your beautiful theory being done in by a gang of cold, hard facts."  (Can't remember the name, believe he was the last pre-N&W president of the Monon.)

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[philnrunt]

  OK, Lets see. I looked at the Australian MRR mags, most interesting- I want to suscribe, but the exchange rate is a bit complicated...lets see, add 12 Australian Dollars, carry the 3 Yen, divide by 17 Lira- OK, Mark, as near as i can figure it out, I owe you $38.17.

   No wait, that can't be right.........I'll get back to you on  that.

   Seriously, thank you all for providing both entertainmaen AND a great list of really cool magazines to check out.

   Oh, and by the way, EVERYONE knows the most modeled RR in the world is IceRail, the national system of Iceland.    Jeeeez, I can't believe you guys argued over all those OTHER countries!

[jon grant]

Here's a link to a forum for British modellers. If you look carefully, you'll find a few US prototypes.

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/

 

As for me, I do both.

Hudson Road (Railway Modeller Jan,March 2004)

 

Sweethome Chicago (Continental Modeller Nov, Dec 2007)

 

There's an awful lot of modelling going on out there that's not US prototype.

 

Jon

 

[marknewton]

As a past president of a fallen flag 1:1 scale railroad said, 40 or so years ago, "It's terrible to witness a murder - especially when it's your beautiful theory being done in by a gang of cold, hard facts."  (Can't remember the name, believe he was the last pre-N&W president of the Monon.)

Was it John Barriger?

[wedudler]

And here's one of the FREMO pioneers. He has build long ago a layout for operation:

 

Hugo Schwilch's The Railroad to Holzheim

 

 

Wolfgang 

[andrechapelon]

As a past president of a fallen flag 1:1 scale railroad said, 40 or so years ago, "It's terrible to witness a murder - especially when it's your beautiful theory being done in by a gang of cold, hard facts."  (Can't remember the name, believe he was the last pre-N&W president of the Monon.)

Was it John Barriger?

Barriger wasn't the last Monon president. Samuel T. Brown was. Monon was bought by the L&N in 1971. L&N became part of Family Lines which became part of CSX.

http://www.monon.org/history2.html

Andre - World's greatest living authority (eat your heart out ye follower of that anthracite railroad that shall remain nameless )