Hi everyone.
As someone of you know I'm in the early stages of planing my next layout. It will be H0. Now I've grown fascinated by narrow gauge so I was considering adding a small branch line HOn3 line.
But I do have a few questions about this since I know very little to say nothing about this.
The layout will be mid 50's. Local have not been determined. But I'm leaning towards a fictional place that will allow me to have both a bit of mountains and plains.
1. Do the HOn3 operate on the same DCC systems as regular HO?
2. Which manufacturers produce good track. Since this will be a small part of the layout cost is not so much an issue. Quality is very important, as well as looks.
3. Which manufacturers produce good quality and highly detailed HOn3 equipment. I'm looking to get a mikado and maybe a shay so once again, quality, DCC and looks are the most important aspects. Since I will have so few engines cost is not very important. Cars would also be nice knowing which are good, I plan to use maybe 10-15. A few logging cars, a few passenger cars and some freight cars. Perhaps something from a small mining operation.
4. How large are "broad curves" in HOn3. On my Ho the mainline will be no less then 36". Which is something I consider broad. But naturally I want to use the narrow gauge to have some tighter curves then usual, but not to the extent that operations suffer.
5. What is the difference between HOn3 and HOn30?
Thanks for our time,
Magnus
Before anyone answers your questions if they can, you should be aware that HOn3 is a really minority scale. The only way you are going to get a Shay and other fine working locos would be in brass. And they are expensive. Everything else is probably do-able, but if you've got to spend $1000.00 for a Shay, then this may affect your thinking.
An alternative is HOn30, which uses N scale track and N scale mechanisms from steamers and diesels. A whole lot cheaper.
Good luck!
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
Railphotog wrote: Before anyone answers your questions if they can, you should be aware that HOn3 is a really minority scale. The only way you are going to get a Shay and other fine working locos would be in brass. And they are expensive. Everything else is probably do-able, but if you've got to spend $1000.00 for a Shay, then this may affect your thinking.An alternative is HOn30, which uses N scale track and N scale mechanisms from steamers and diesels. A whole lot cheaper.Good luck!
Thanks for telling me. But when I checked Walthers they come up with a total 25 products in HOn30 in stock. And I can not really find much at all. HOn3 had a lot more, though not very much either.
Which looks the best? Since this is for a really really small part of the layout I do not mind if costs runs wild. It won't get very high anyways, it is also a project I will not even start until I'm done with my studies. I just want to start building up a few cars and an engine or two. Basically build it small so that I can afford top end stuff rather then buying it all at once.
That said, I do not want to spend money I do not have to, a brass Shay for 1000$ is not something I want to have to do. So I'm glad you told me.
i'm not an HOn3 modeller so i'll only partially answer your questions
1) yes , DCC is the same for all scales , although the larger scales require more power output.
2) micro engineering and shinohara . maybe more
3) i'll leave this to the people who model narrow guage and can give the best info
4) you could go to 18" or below . HOn3 equipment is both small and short , 20 foot cars aren't unusual , and tight curves are very prototypical
5) HOn3 is HO scale (1/87) with 3 feet between the rails , in inches it would be called HO36 . HOn30 is HO scale with 30 inches between the rails , in feet it would be called HOn2 1/2 (i think thats the term MR mag uses)
you should try to find a copy of Narrow Guage and Shortline Gazette , it might inspire you to sell all your HO and just go narrow guage !
http://www.ngslgazette.com/
TrainManTy wrote:Where will all those Big Boys run now?
Don't worry, they will have plenty of space to run free. This will only be a very small part of the layout. The layout room will be roughly 14*30 feet so a very small narrow gauge line should fit.
The Big boys will always be a part of my plans, that and the passenger cars is why I will use 36" radius on my standard gauge mainline.
ereimer wrote: i'm not an HOn3 modeller so i'll only partially answer your questions1) yes , DCC is the same for all scales , although the larger scales require more power output.2) micro engineering and shinohara . maybe more3) i'll leave this to the people who model narrow guage and can give the best info4) you could go to 18" or below . HOn3 equipment is both small and short , 20 foot cars aren't unusual , and tight curves are very prototypical5) HOn3 is HO scale (1/87) with 3 feet between the rails , in inches it would be called HO36 . HOn30 is HO scale with 30 inches between the rails , in feet it would be called HOn2 1/2 (i think thats the term MR mag uses)you should try to find a copy of Narrow Guage and Shortline Gazette , it might inspire you to sell all your HO and just go narrow guage !http://www.ngslgazette.com/
Thanks for clearing a lot of things up for me.
Better stay away from those magazines then!
Lillen wrote:As someone of you know I'm in the early stages of planing my next layout. It will be H0. Now I've grown fascinated by narrow gauge so I was considering adding a small branch line HOn3 line.
I speak from experience. At one time I had N, HO, O, and G. I was trying to pursue them all. In N-scale I had Santa Fe, CB&Q, D&RGW, & SP (which now I gag on). In HO it was CB&Q, GN, and NP plus the club I belong to was a freelance. G was narrow gauge. I finally got smart and dropped the N and O scale. But didn't drop the road names. Then when I got smarter and decided to go down to a specific thing found it is much harder to drop a road name when one realizes that through the whim years they have accumulated 100s of locomotives in each??!
Decided to focust the modeling on one thing now - and stick to it. Your budget will be happier, your layout will be better, and it will be a better modeling experience. Yes one can still like other things. I still love GG1s and know all about them, but that doesn't mean I have to have an model of one on my layout. I really love ore operations, but not as much as other things so they will not be on my layout either.
The best narrow gauge layouts I've seen are exactly that, strickly narrow gauge. Unless one has a really large space (14x30 isn't) mixing the two usually ends up being one interchange town and a whole lot of "staging".
Lillen wrote: ereimer wrote: i'm not an HOn3 modeller so i'll only partially answer your questions1) yes , DCC is the same for all scales , although the larger scales require more power output.2) micro engineering and shinohara . maybe more3) i'll leave this to the people who model narrow guage and can give the best info4) you could go to 18" or below . HOn3 equipment is both small and short , 20 foot cars aren't unusual , and tight curves are very prototypical5) HOn3 is HO scale (1/87) with 3 feet between the rails , in inches it would be called HO36 . HOn30 is HO scale with 30 inches between the rails , in feet it would be called HOn2 1/2 (i think thats the term MR mag uses)you should try to find a copy of Narrow Guage and Shortline Gazette , it might inspire you to sell all your HO and just go narrow guage !http://www.ngslgazette.com/ Thanks for clearing a lot of things up for me. Better stay away from those magazines then! Magnus
But seriously, magazines like Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette would be a good place to start, if for no other reason, the ads, which will give you a much bigger selection than Walthers.
Before the latest round of buyouts, mergers, consolidations, etc (yes this happened in the model manufacturing section, too) a good source of reasonably priced HOn3 equipment was Model Die Casting/Roundhouse. They are owned by Athearn now but I'm not sure if they offer the HOn3 part of the line yet, or will in the future. The website doesn't show them, but you may be able to find the older ones on Ebay.
http://www.roundhousetrains.com/
Texas Zepher , I understand your point. I have been thinking about getting one railroad and run that and nothing but that. This narrow gauge fascination is right now on a very early stage, which might mean that there will be nothing done with it. I still like to examine things and I might also get the engines just because I like the looks of the, I bought a galloping goose just the other day in On30, I will never run it. But I want to have it to look at. The same theory applies to a lot of things I collect. I will never ever run all my 25 Big boys and so on, I like to collect items and put them on display. If I never use them that's fine with me. I like to look at them. So some of my interest in narrow gauge should be viewed in that perspective. I might just make a diorama or just put them in my cabinet.
Now, if I ad a small line in narrow gauge it would be very small as I said, nothing more then a few meters in length. Maybe more, but not a lot at all. Just as a way for me to run a few trains on occasion.
I am not about to start several scales, I have no interest what so ever in the other scales. About focusing on one railroad, I've been thinking about that, either the B&O or the UP. I own about equal amount of engines for both, but B&O is my main interest. Now, I have some other engines from other lines, I have some DM&IR, a full California Zephyr set and two sets of NYC F3 AB's. I also got three N&W class J's and some other engines. But the majority of these "foreign" railroads engines won't be used on the layout. Their place is in the cabinets and will occasionally be used for fun. So please understand that just because I have the engines it doesn't mean that I plan to use them on a regular basis.
I'm there for in a situation that as you describe should make up my mind. But for me I can not see the reason why I can not ad a small narrow gauge line and say that it's next to a mainline for either the B&O or the UP. So while I understand and agree with much of what you say I still think their is room for some "unrealistic" things. I'm not that interested in modelling anything specific. I will not use a modern diesel along side 1940's equipment and I only model things available in the 1950's or earlier but that's about it.
But, just once more so that I am clear about this, if I buy the models it is mostly for display, not operations. Also, lest not forget that I'm so far only doing some research in to this, it is at least five years in the future before I would guess that anything else but pure HO will be placed on the layout.
All this said, I really apreciate and understand what you are saying, I will think hard on this, very hard and see if I could come up with a plan that focuses on one thing and one thing only. The fight is between the B&O and the UP, so if anyone produces the EM-1's that might help me ditch all but the B&O.
ereimer wrote:i'm not an HOn3 modeller so i'll only partially answer your questions1) yes , DCC is the same for all scales , although the larger scales require more power output.2) micro engineering and shinohara . maybe more3) i'll leave this to the people who model narrow guage and can give the best info4) you could go to 18" or below . HOn3 equipment is both small and short , 20 foot cars aren't unusual , and tight curves are very prototypical5) HOn3 is HO scale (1/87) with 3 feet between the rails , in inches it would be called HO36 . HOn30 is HO scale with 30 inches between the rails , in feet it would be called HOn2 1/2 (i think thats the term MR mag uses)you should try to find a copy of Narrow Guage and Shortline Gazette , it might inspire you to sell all your HO and just go narrow guage ! http://www.ngslgazette.com/
I thought I better clarify how, if I would use a small piece of narrow gauge that would incorporated. Basically, the trains would only run a few meters to a small station where they meet the normal track. From there it would just run to a small staging yard that would be hidden and run through tunnels to emerge back again. So it would NOT be anything big at all, just a small thing that would allow me to use some stuff that I think is great looking.
PASMITH wrote:HOn3 is much more popular than HOn30 in the US because the availability of equipment but, this is still very limited when compared to HO. Additionally prototype 3ft gauge RR's were more numerous and more interesting particularly in the Rocky Mountain regions of the US. However, most of them went out of business in the 30's and I think you would like to model the US in fifties. If so, you might want to think of representing one of the US narrow gauge tourist railroads as a number of these still are in operation.
I was thinking of a a tourist line. It was after watching a DVD with that I started to be inspired. Especially the Mikados.
Most of what I seen is from the Rocky's, but how was it with narrow gauge in the eastern mountains?
I though about my struggle with B&O vs UP. I kind of realized that I always tend to plan for the B&O. The U´P is only second. I only have two kinds of engines for the B&O, Big Boys and a challenger. While for the B&O I have a some diversity. I also like them more. So I will start to focus even more on them.
I Checked out the narrow gauge gazette, seems quite cheap, I'll might try a year subscription just to try it.
Thank you all that have contributed.
Lillen wrote:I thought I better clarify how, if I would use a small piece of narrow gauge that would incorporated. Basically, the trains would only run a few meters to a small station where they meet the normal track. From there it would just run to a small staging yard that would be hidden and run through tunnels to emerge back again. So it would NOT be anything big at all, just a small thing that would allow me to use some stuff that I think is great looking. Magnus
PASMITH wrote:I guess it is 7:45 AM Sunday morning where you are?It sounds to me that a tourist RR would work. HOn3 would give you the biggest variety of locos to choose from. Peter Smith, Memphis
No it's 7.52 Pm here. We are only a few hours ahead of you.
I think I'll see how a small Hon3 tourist line could be used.
Lillen wrote: PASMITH wrote:I guess it is 7:45 AM Sunday morning where you are?It sounds to me that a tourist RR would work. HOn3 would give you the biggest variety of locos to choose from. Peter Smith, Memphis No it's 7.52 Pm here. We are only a few hours ahead of you. I think I'll see how a small Hon3 tourist line could be used. Magnus
PASMITH wrote: No it's 7.52 Pm here. We are only a few hours ahead of you. Try this:http://www.spikesys.com/EBTHey Guys, did the B & O come close to the 3Ft gauge East Broadtop any place?Peter Smith, Memphis. ( 7 Hours earlier than Sweden?)
Try this:http://www.spikesys.com/EBTHey Guys, did the B & O come close to the 3Ft gauge East Broadtop any place?Peter Smith, Memphis. ( 7 Hours earlier than Sweden?)
If so that would be great. Then I could be at least more prototypical and that is never a bad thing.
Is there anything available from the eastern narrow gauge railroads in terms of engines?
My answers within your quotes.
Lillen wrote:Hi everyone. As someone of you know I'm in the early stages of planing my next layout. It will be H0. Now I've grown fascinated by narrow gauge so I was considering adding a small branch line HOn3 line.But I do have a few questions about this since I know very little to say nothing about this. The layout will be mid 50's. Local have not been determined. But I'm leaning towards a fictional place that will allow me to have both a bit of mountains and plains. 1. Do the HOn3 operate on the same DCC systems as regular HO?>No changes, all the same. 2. Which manufacturers produce good track. Since this will be a small part of the layout cost is not so much an issue. Quality is very important, as well as looks. >theres Shinohara, Micro Engineering might have. Other makers also out there.http://www.walthers.com/ hit the shop link, select hon3, max the listing to 300 and search, or play around as desired. 3. Which manufacturers produce good quality and highly detailed HOn3 equipment. I'm looking to get a mikado and maybe a shay so once again, quality, DCC and looks are the most important aspects. Since I will have so few engines cost is not very important. Cars would also be nice knowing which are good, I plan to use maybe 10-15. A few logging cars, a few passenger cars and some freight cars. Perhaps something from a small mining operation.>You can hit EBAY and search HOn3. There are many brass hobby shops as well that have new/used brass all the time. There may be some good RTR cars out there but also be ready to get your hands wet building and decaling.4. How large are "broad curves" in HOn3. On my Ho the mainline will be no less then 36". Which is something I consider broad. But naturally I want to use the narrow gauge to have some tighter curves then usual, but not to the extent that operations suffer. >HOn3 is natural to tight curves, it can sneak into places HO can't. Consider 18" normal, but you can go to 15" and it might even do 12", equipment is much smaller. I would call 24" broad for it. Some decent brass engines tho may be limited in their radius so choose wisely. I would expect the majority of equipment to handle 18".5. What is the difference between HOn3 and HOn30?>HOn3 is 36" gauge, HOn30 is 30" gauge, or sometimes called HOn2-1/2, these are gauged the same as N scale. So if your laying track an N scale gauge may work. Thanks for our time, Magnus
>No changes, all the same.
>theres Shinohara, Micro Engineering might have. Other makers also out there.
http://www.walthers.com/
hit the shop link, select hon3, max the listing to 300 and search, or play around as desired.
>You can hit EBAY and search HOn3. There are many brass hobby shops as well that have new/used brass all the time. There may be some good RTR cars out there but also be ready to get your hands wet building and decaling.
>HOn3 is natural to tight curves, it can sneak into places HO can't. Consider 18" normal, but you can go to 15" and it might even do 12", equipment is much smaller. I would call 24" broad for it. Some decent brass engines tho may be limited in their radius so choose wisely. I would expect the majority of equipment to handle 18".
>HOn3 is 36" gauge, HOn30 is 30" gauge, or sometimes called HOn2-1/2, these are gauged the same as N scale. So if your laying track an N scale gauge may work.
A new player in HOn3 is Blackstone with their 2-8-0. For Shays, MDC had a kit but Roundhouse (MDC) was sold to Athearn who have been re-engineering the line, no kits out yet, but some RTR stuff, HO only for now released. For their kits you will have to scrounge, look on ebay, they do pop up from time to time. Brass is available, certainly more expensive.
Keystone has a Shay kit and NWSL has a powering kit but the powering kit has been on hold because NWSL needs a hard metal sideframe from Keystone to offer it again, but they will sell the kit minus the sideframes, contact NWSL. The Keystone sideframes are soft metal and NWSL needs the hard metal for the power drive.
I will have HOn3 on my layout as a feeder for the standard gauge such as coal and some lumber and whatever else. I will use a real 3 foot gauge line that was abandoned early, I will just "de-abandon" it, give it new equipment, kinda freelanced using the railroad name.
Speaking purely of prototypes:
Middle Atlantic - East Broad Top Railroad, Pennsylvania. Last revenue freight, April 1956, reopened as a tourist/passenger operation in 1960, still operating. Interchanged (mostly coal) with PRR at Mount Union, PA. Current tourist line does not reach Mount Union, but some trackage is still in place.
South - "Tweetsie" (East Tennessee and Western North Carolina) originally ran from Johnson City, TN into the mountains southeast of that point through the Doe River Gorge. Revenue operations ended on the narrow gauge in 1950. There is an isolated, purpose-built theme park operation at Blowing Rock, NC called the Tweetsie Railroad - it is nowhere near the original ET&WNC right-of-way and is basically a simple loop with a few sidings and spurs.
Rockies - D&RGW operated 3 foot gauge in a number of locations, two of which survive as the Silverton Railroad (Silverton, CO to Durango, CO) and the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railway (Antonito, CO to Chama, NM.) An interesting operation was the Monarch Branch, which carried rock from a quarry at the top of Monarch Pass to the standard-gauge mainline at Salida. It was standard-gauged on the original alignment (4.5% grades, 24 degree curves) in the 1950s, and abandoned in 1990. I found a couple of lumps of coal at the turnout for the lower switchback in 1988, easily a quarter-century after the last coalburner made that climb.
Farther West - Carson and Colorado (originally built by the Virginia and Truckee, later operated by the Southern Pacific) ran from Mound House, NV (east of Carson City) down the Owens Valley to Keeler, CA. It was abandoned in sections, the last before 1960. A few locomotives and pieces of rolling stock survive in various places, mostly as static displays.
California - West Side Lumber Company, ran into the woods north and east of Tuolumne, CA. Tuolumne was the site of a large sawmill complex served by the standard gauge Sierra RR. West Side ran as a logger until 1959, was officially abandoned in 1960, had a brief comeback as a tourist operation. West Side Shay locomotives were sold off, and several operate today on tourist lines (notably the one at the South Portal to Yosemite National Park, miles from any other railroad, past or present.)
As you can see, 3 foot gauge (10.5mm HO) operations were not uncommon, but most were either standard-gauged or abandoned before Big Boy left the erecting floor at Schenectady.
Hope this has been helpful.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
tomikawaTT wrote: As you can see, 3 foot gauge (10.5mm HO) operations were not uncommon, but most were either standard-gauged or abandoned before Big Boy left the erecting floor at Schenectady.Hope this has been helpful.Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
It was extremely helpful. A lot of information and I really appreciated it. Thank you very much.
dinwitty , thank you for the information. A lot of really good information there. As I said before I know very little about Hon3.
I will pick you up on your idea on 18" that will make it stand out even more in relation to the other track.
"I will have HOn3 on my layout as a feeder for the standard gauge such as coal and some lumber and whatever else. I will use a real 3 foot gauge line that was abandoned early, I will just "de-abandon" it, give it new equipment, kinda freelanced using the railroad name."
This is what i was thinking about to, I'm not sure how well that came across in one my earlier posts. It seems like a great idea to just have some deliveries to the mainline with a narrow gauge railroad.
I'm mostly interested in the K-27 or K-28. I'm looking for a DCC ready or DCC engine with a big plow. I just love the looks of them. I will get one even if I do not build a narrow gauge railroad. It will be a beauty in the display cabinet. So any model you guys can recommend. I did notice Walthers had some, it is soundtraxx(Blackstone) a engine? But since I never heard of them I would apreciate if anyone could tell me if they are any good? Also, any other good store that carries them?
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/678-310100S
And as usual thank you everyone who have contributed. I really apreciate it.
Much of the HOn30 modeling is based on the Maine Two Footers. A couple of sites to check would be http://www.trainandtrooper.com/ and http://www.hon30.org/. As for HOn3, you should be able to pick up some MDC kits or RTR - watch eBay. Be advised that many people have reported problems with the MDC Shay kit, but the MDC RTR Shay seems to be okay.
Enjoy
Paul
Lillen wrote:The layout will be mid 50's. Local have not been determined. But I'm leaning towards a fictional place that will allow me to have both a bit of mountains and plains.
Tjena Lillen,
I second what Chuck mentioned about the locale. If you want both mountains and plains, try the SP between Keeler and Laws in California. It will be desert instead of plains, but it is virtually in the shadows of Mt. Whitney and not far from Death Valley so you have the lowest and the highest point in the lower 48 states as neighbors.
The two last surviving steam engines (no. 9 and 18) were available in brass models from Westside Models and you can still fined these but the cars are a bit harder to find (you can always kitbash some Colorado cars if you like).
The railroad had an interchange with the SP standard gauge in Owenyo (with connection to Mojave via the Jawbone branch). An interesting point is that there was no dual gauge trackage at all on this railroad, they used a couple of other means to transfer loads between the two gauges.
There is some equipment preserved in Lone Pine and Laws, so pictures will be realitvely easy to find. And there are a couple of books published as well. And if that isn't enough, there is also a historical society dedicated to the line.
Per in Plano (soon to be Tustin)
Some interesting replies here.
HOn3 RTR has recently taken off. Walters does not distribute a lot of the HOn3 lines so the NG&SL Gazette is the best source of information, with the Yahoo HOn3 group every bit their equal. Blackstone has produced a die cast and plastic K27 2-8-2 with DCC and sound which has raised the bar for performance out of the box. MMI had just released their K27 made in die cast and brass. Both are in the $200-$400 ball park, depending on how they are equipped. More RTR locomotives are expected from both.
Out of production brass, MDC (Roundhouse), and low end brass are readily available on eBay and at some dealers. Most brass is in the $300-$600 range, with geared locomotives being more expensive than rod engines. Performance of brass varies widely from model to model - some are great, some are not. Almost all can benefit from additional pickups. FED and Ken Kidder (low end brass) usually go for less than $200, but generally need significant work (remotor/regear) to run well. The MDC Shay can be made into a nice running model, but you have to know the modifications to make (there are several web sites that give this information). The Keystone Shay is similar to the MDC Shay, is more complex to build, but results in a beautiful small Shay.
Blackstone and MicroTrains (the N and Z scale folks) have released highly detailed RTR plastic rolling stock. Both continue to expand their lines and offerings. Meanwhile, there are literally over 100 car kits available from Rail Line, Grandt, Durango Press, PSC, Labelle, Cache Creek, Ye Olde Huff-n-Puff, and others I have neglected to mention (I apologize to those manufacturers). Some are plastic, a few are metal, and most are wood kits.
Flex track is made by PSC, MicroEngineering (code 70, 55, 40), and Shinohara (code 70). Shinohara makes code 70 turnouts, and ME makes code 55 turnouts, but both are in short supply at present. Railway Engineering, Litco, and BK also make HOn3 turnouts. Fast Tracks makes easy-to-use turnout jigs to roll your own.
The Blackstone K27 will run on 18" radius curves, but the brass models of K class 2-8-2s often need about 22" radius curves. If you stay with 2-8-0s and smaller, 18" radius curves work well. An HOn3 #4 turnout has sharper curves than its standard gauge cousin becasue it has a much smaller track gauge in which to achieve the same frog angle. Recommended minimum in HOn3 is #5, and a #6 is even better.
There were 3ft gauge lines in almost every part of the U.S. at the end of the 19th Century. But the promise of narrow gauge fell apart when interchange between railroads became the norm. Without the ability to interchange cars easily, narrow gauge lines did not have the income to keep up with the rapid growth in capacity and size of standard gauge rolling stock. The K series locomotives of the DG&RW and the steel underframe cars of the C&S were a last ditch attempt to keep narrow gauge viable. By the early 1900s, most non-isolated narrow gauge lines that could turn a profit were converted to standard gauge. The addition to Chuck's list of prototypes that survived would be the White Pass & Yukon connecting Skagway, Alaska to the Yukon territory, with the terminal at Whitehorse. The line still runs as a tourist attraction; the last revenue freight was in the 1980s I believe.
hope this helps
Fred W
Chief Engineer, Wiper, bottle washer, and jack of all trades for...
Picture Gorge & Western Railway (HO)
Port Orford & Elk River Railway & Navigation Co (HOn3)
....modeling foggy costal Oregon, where it's always 1900....