Last Day: 10 x 12 Layout Contest: We need your vote: Close race.

[stebbycentral]

He's tapping his foot...........that scares me

Wonder what kind of music he's listening to?

Rap?

Hip Hop?

Lawrence Welk?

It's quite obvious,... it's a polka band!  

[Driline]

He's tapping his foot...........that scares me

Wonder what kind of music he's listening to?

Rap?

Hip Hop?

Lawrence Welk?

[oleirish]

Chip

Your contest is cool,BUT have you ever throught about a contest where you are given an area that is allready scenic and has hills mountains ECT,ECT then servay an railroad and build it???Like the real thing? We all have built layouts and then add the suroundings.

This might be a chlange??

JIM

[SpaceMouse]

[marknewton]

Thanks for taking the time to analyze the entries and post your coments, TZ

As you say , the Rice influence is fairly obvious. As I was saying to Stein in our PMs, I'd just finished reading a book of his, with the rather long-winded title of "An approach to model railway layout design; Finescale in small spaces", published in the UK by Wild Swan. Also, I was lucky enough to see his layouts "Butley Mills" and "Woolverstone' at exhibitions in the UK some years back - they had a profound effect on my thinking about every aspect of layout design. As did having a yarn with him and his mate Bob Barlow at Scaleforum. I rate Rice, Barlow and a few others of their ilk as the leading thinkers in the hobby today, at least as its practiced in the UK and Australia.

But I'm not sure I understand your comments about "curvy" sidings and house tracks being "non-North American". I've seen plenty of both on railroads there. Are you referring to North American model railroad practices?

I agree, Hinaga is an interesting location, but I can't take any credit for its design - I simply copied what was there before the line was closed beyond Nishi-Hino. These days the branch platform is just a single track, the loop has been removed. (Which is a pity, because it was not uncommon to see four trains at once there...great fun!)

I think if I were to build this layout I probaly would not have the track and benchwork curves so closely aligned, but I didn't want to spend too much time on the drawing, in case I missed the deadline. And as Chip will confirm, I almost did!

As I said, I'm glad you took the time to think about the designs and offer your comments. I'm looking forward to the discussion after the competition closes. I think we'll all learn something.

All the best,

Mark.

[concretelackey]

3) Kintetsu Utsube Line - Like many said it has great lines and has some great curves.  Plus you got to love a layout that you cannot pronounce.

LOL! I can pronounce it - badly! The lady who teaches me Japanese pulls some great faces when I mangle words...

But then again some might find Susquehanna hard to pronounce.

You're not wrong - I wouldn't attempt it!

All the best,

Mark.

Basically just sound it out...

suss (sounds like fuss), kwee (wee with a k), hanna (just like banana but with out the bana and with an H). Lived within 25 minutes of that river all my life...

[marknewton]

3) Kintetsu Utsube Line - Like many said it has great lines and has some great curves.  Plus you got to love a layout that you cannot pronounce.

LOL! I can pronounce it - badly! The lady who teaches me Japanese pulls some great faces when I mangle words...

But then again some might find Susquehanna hard to pronounce.

You're not wrong - I wouldn't attempt it!

All the best,

Mark.

[exPalaceDog]

This is mainly to bump the contest vote back up!

The Old Dog isn't ready to vote yet

But if anybody wants some additional information on the Philadelphia & Erie, here are some interesting links. Please note that submission is NOT mine. But the Old Mutt finds that region interesting. 

http://historical.maptech.com/quad.cfm?quadname=Corry&state=PA&series=15

http://historical.maptech.com/quad.cfm?quadname=Youngsville&state=PA&series=15

http://historical.maptech.com/quad.cfm?quadname=Warren&state=PA&series=15

 

http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/downloads/ett_5404_northern.pdf

http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/downloads/ett_5504_conemaugh.pdf

 

http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/corry.htm

http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/erie.htm

http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm

 

http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/images/maps_1920/allegheny_and_buffalo.jpg

Have fun

 

[Texas Zepher]

Interesting comments TZ.

Took about three hours of analysis time to come up with just those few!

[SpaceMouse]

Interesting comments TZ.

[colvinbackshop]

N scale: # 3 Snover & Port Fuller

Ho scale: # 5 Kintetsu Utsube

Over-all top vote: #3 Snover & Port Fuller

[Texas Zepher]

Ok, I don't know where my last post from day one went, but comments first:
Appalachian Central - while it follows its theme and design criteria it seems extremely simple for an n-scale 10x12.   The center parts of the L (where the coal mine is) is going to be hard to reach for operation & repair.   The town at the top is a way cool design.
Altoona & Johnson - I would have used one of the "blobs" for horseshoe curve proper.  Railroad car manufacturer is a way cool industry for a MR.  I know this scenery from riding through this on Amtrak.
Snover & Port Fuller - DQ for being too large HOWEVER, it certainly looks like this is HO scale.  The turnouts are almost 9" long, the track centers on parallel track is 2".  I believe if this was done using 6.25" long #6 turnouts, and making the parallel track on 1.25" centers, reduce the radius of the curves to 15" or so and it would easily fit into the given space.  Why is the staging yard double ended on a point-to-point operating scheme?  Seems a lot more could be fit with stub ended yards.  Maybe make one run around for use when making up the trains before the operating session.
Southern Railways -  Whithout some more info on scenery it is just a rail fanning twisted figure-8.  Staging is only accessible from one direction as there is no reversing loop or wye.  Mighty tight squeeze between the staging and both blobs.
West Virginia Southern - I see no helper cut off or staging tracks for helper locomotives.  I think I would increase the grade a 2% for a model RR isn't much.  Duck under design.  Intersting angles on the benchwork and track on the benchwork.
River Valley - I like the disguised figure-8 contained in this plan.  I like the "working" interchange.  Too bad it doesn't stage on both sides. 18" isles are scary.  Sort of simple for n-scale in 10x12.

Christmas Special - not enough room for door swing in either of the diagonal corners so it would not really fit in given space. I don't like the switch-back to get into the car shop.  Lots of straight parallel track to the edges of the layout.  It looks like a very large christmas tree layout.
Big Fork Diehl - Way cool coal mine configuration. Two duck unders.  No staging on the continuous run oval.
Buffalo & Susquehanna - Since it is going for 4 axle diesels why not use tighter radius curves and get some space for straight industrial tracks and give it some breathing space.  Two foot isles are fine unless people are trying to work industrial areas #2 and #3 at the same time.
Lower Susquehanna Works - Wow, looks way cool, but extremely complex both to build display and operate.  I can't comment as to the actual layout of the tracks as I don't know the steel industry well enough, but I can see a need for 3-6 loco/trains constantly at work here with no room for that many operators.
Kintetsu Utsube Line - I knew it was a Rice inspired before reading the description.  I have a hard time getting used to the non-NorthAmerican double curvey sidings and curved house tracks.  The double passing track configuration at Hinaga is intersting.   The narrow gauge geometry also makes it hard for me to visualize.  Really like that there are no straight bench work or straight tracks parallel to the walls, however the track so closely following the curve of the benchwork is almost the same thing.
Twin Peaks -  I think the two almost symetrical blobs attract all the attention.  Seems like with this much space a logging and mining road with geared locomotives could have been executed better.  Where are the sharp curves, switch backs, and 6-8% grades?  No mill pond, or saw dust burners?
Philadelphia & Erie - Complex construction.  Visual area looks to be really interesting and fun to work.  The lower left and upper right corners are going to have access problems.  Mirror image would make it fit the contest space.
Port Erie Belt Line Railway - The three levels are very similar. I think a bit more variation on each would have made it more interesting.  The tail on the run around in the Navy Yard is too small for anything even a 0-4-0 dockside - isn't it?   Can't tell if the car barge is an elevator between the levels or not.
Progressive Rail -  Interesting concept with the two switchers to work both directions of sidings with no run around.
Branch Line Coal - Seems to violate the rule about the door.  Long duck under for entering the area.  Doesn't really have three loops as the two outside squeeze into one track, so only two trains could orbit at once.  It says 22" minimum but I am pretty certain I see some kinks down to 14-15" radius in there.  Duceville and Onetown track plans are basically the same.  Thriceburg would be too if it wasn't for the mine.  I really dislike the switchback into loco facilities.  Yard is too large for the rest of the layout.  Loads in empties out concept is great for showmanship but people would have to be inside the loop to really notice that. 

General Comments. 

If I had a 10 x 12 room available for a layout I would consume it with a layout.
The only entry with a "normal" bridge across the door is the G-scale one!?!

Results. 

N-scale: # Snover Port - I think it can be redone to fit in the space (see comment above)
H0-scale: # Kintetsu Utsube Line (Big Fork was almost a tie - the name distracts).

Overall favorites:
#1 Borracho Traction Company
#2 Kintetsu Utsube Line
#3 Big Fork

[stilson4283]

N: Altoona & Johnstown - Being from the Northeast I have to go for the one that has a Horseshoe Curve layout

HO: Buffalo & Susquehanna

G: Barracho Traction Co. 

 Top Three:

1) Barracho Traction Co. - I need to put this first because unlike the others this actually made me consider changing scale and start building

2) Buffalo & Susquehanna

3) Kintetsu Utsube Line - Like many said it has great lines and has some great curves.  Plus you got to love a layout that you cannot pronounce.  But then again some might find Susquehanna hard to pronounce.

 

Chris

Lancaster, CA 

[dhilyer]

N: Altoona & Johnstown

HO: Progressive Rail

G: Borracho Traction Co.

Overall

1. Progressive Rail

2. Buffalo & Susquehanna

3. Altoona & Johnstown

[Autobus Prime]

Folks:

Oops, I slipped and I

BUMPed

the layout.

 

 

[Driline]

I am not fishing for anything.  Dont let my short posting history fool you to believe I have no right to opinions.

No-one suggested otherwise. But you made a statement - "They were all early diesel or Steam layouts" - which is wrong. That undermines the value of your opinion considerably, as it's based on a false premise.

As for your short posting history, it's an unfortunate fact of forum life that established posters tend to view newbies who appear to be bent on being confrontational, as you do, with suspicion.

Cheers,

Mark.

My apologies then.  I made a mistake with the assumption by looking at two or three designs that were steam as them all being steam era.  I really didnt like the designs personally but its just my little opinion and nothing special

(For all you Star Wars Fans out there)

:: Darth Vader to Captain Needa as he "chokes" the life out of him ::

:: "Apology accepted Captain Needa" ::

 

[garya]

I like several of the layouts, but in each scale:

• Altoona and Johnstown (N)
• Progressive Rail (HO)
• Borracho Traction Company (G)

As far as picking the winners, I like:

1. Borracho Traction Company
2. Progressive Rail
3. Kintetsu Utsube Line

I enjoyed reading the descriptions of these layouts as well as the creativity displayed here--a narrow gauge, industrial, electrified line in Japan, a three level switching layout, a multi-level blast furnace layout, a G-scale shelf layout--I would never have thought of any of these.

Well done, everyone; well done, SpaceMouse.

[Autobus Prime]

I My apologies then.  I made a mistake with the assumption by looking at two or three designs that were steam as them all being steam era.  I really didnt like the designs personally but its just my little opinion and nothing special

SL:

That's fine.  Layout design is usually a matter of personal taste above all.  I'm sure we will have more contests of this type in the future.  Why not enter something in the next one?

(As for steam era, I think we should all make a distinction between the often-seen transition era and the pure, glorious era of smoky blissful paradise before the diseasels appeared.  That of course is only my own little opinion.)

 

[stebbycentral]

Bump

[dmitzel]

My vote goes to the HO Buffalo and Susquehanna - nice trackwork geometry and flow... very realistic IMO. Would make a very nice layout for the space.

[wheeler]

The ones I liked are

1st place-#3 Buffalo and Susquehanna

2nd place- #7 Philadelphia and erie

3rd place- #2 Lower Susquehanna

I do not model "N", and do not feel I know enough of the limits of radii, etc. to make an informed decision.

I like all of these, as they all seem to have continuous running (with one small glitch on the Buffalo and susquehanna) and I still feel that continuous running is important on a layout.

[Anonymous]

I am not fishing for anything.  Dont let my short posting history fool you to believe I have no right to opinions.

No-one suggested otherwise. But you made a statement - "They were all early diesel or Steam layouts" - which is wrong. That undermines the value of your opinion considerably, as it's based on a false premise.

As for your short posting history, it's an unfortunate fact of forum life that established posters tend to view newbies who appear to be bent on being confrontational, as you do, with suspicion.

Cheers,

Mark.

My apologies then.  I made a mistake with the assumption by looking at two or three designs that were steam as them all being steam era.  I really didnt like the designs personally but its just my little opinion and nothing special

[marknewton]

I found it difficult to make a choice, because I think all of the entries have merit, but I finally settled for these.

Overall Favourites (in no particular order)

Nr.1 Borracho Traction

Nr.2 Snover and Port Fuller Railroad

Nr.3 Lower Susquehanna Works

Individual Scales

N scale: Snover and Port Fuller Railroad

HO scale: Progressive Rail - if I wanted to keep the room usable for other purposes, this would the one!
Alternate HO scale: Big Fork and Dielh - if the room was all mine, I'd go with this.

G scale: Borracho Traction

Anyway, thanks to all the other contestants, and especially to Chip for doing the hard yards. Good luck to all in the judging!

Cheers,

Mark.

[rfross]

Score by scale:

N - Snover and Port Fuller Railroad Company

HO - Kinesube Utsube Line

G - Borracho Traction Company

Overall:

1) Kinesube Utsube Line

2) Snover and Port Fuller Railroad Company

3) Progressive Rail

I really liked the Kinesube Utsube line. As another poster said it is elegant and where less is more.

[tomikawaTT]

The envelopes, please!

First, top layouts by scale:

• N scale - Altoona and Johnstown
• HO scale - Kinesube Utsube-sen (see disclaimer below)
• G gauge - Borracho Traction Company

And now (ruffles and flourishes) - The Top Three!

1. Kinesube Utsube-sen - a zen-like simplicity of plan, combined with fidelity to a prototype that features interesting operation.  (I'm sure that modeling Japanese prototype, a ride on this layout's prototype in 1973 and a personal liking for 762mm gauge didn't bias my thinking - much.)
2. Borracho Traction Company - could be transplanted with little variation to a certain city in Kyushu in the late 1950s.
3. Altoona and Johnstown - who can resist THE Horseshoe Curve - complete with visitors' center and funicular.  Could be backdated to steam (turntable at Altoona) or be equally at home with CR or NS.

Congratulations to all of the entrants - and now I'm sorry I didn't think of the Six Companies until after the deadline had passed (and secretly happy that Chip didn't take my 1:1 scale non-entry seriously!)

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[marknewton]

I am not fishing for anything.  Dont let my short posting history fool you to believe I have no right to opinions.

No-one suggested otherwise. But you made a statement - "They were all early diesel or Steam layouts" - which is wrong. That undermines the value of your opinion considerably, as it's based on a false premise.

As for your short posting history, it's an unfortunate fact of forum life that established posters tend to view newbies who appear to be bent on being confrontational, as you do, with suspicion.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Overall I have to say the Kinesube impressed me the most in terms of trackwork and scenery, namely the urban area it travereses, it would be very unique once built.

Though if I built it I would have a cutout of the Big Guy somewhere on the backdrop.

LOL! Good one, Vic! I' didn't think of that. But a mate of mine who has a layout based on a tramway in Tokyo has done it - http://japanese-trains.com/setagaya/

And thank you for the compliment. Seems we both like each other's entries.

 

Chip I have a thought, after the voting is done, after the awards ceremony is attended, after the awards passed out, and after the drunken acceptance speeches given out (or will it just be a "news conference" due to the writers strike)...can we have a deconstruction session regarding these submittals? I see some things in them that I would like to discuss but I dont want to risk tainting the voting pool one way or another. Just a thought...and if everyone elses egos are up to the possible bruising along with the praises.

Good idea. I'd be up for it. Hopefully so will the other contestants.

All the best,

Mark.

[Anonymous]

They were all early diesel or Steam layouts so I didnt like that at all.  I also really did not like any of the HO designs at all.  They were all boring in my little opinion

I see you looked really closely. The first one was late 90's NS/CSX and the second one was Modern day Norfolk Southern. Next time show us how it's done.

 There was also an electrified line (the Japanese one), and one based on a 2002 protoype. Sure.

 But be advised that "Supreme Line" is a poster with a short posting history - he might be deliberately fishing for flames.

 Please don't let his - umm - perhaps somewhat less than 100% informed - post derail this thread.

 Grin,
 Stein

 

 

I am not fishing for anything.  Dont let my short posting history fool you to believe I have no right to opinions.  I personally did not like any of the designs is that alright???  If not I will lie to suit you and say they were all fantastic

[stebbycentral]

First, kudos to all the N-siders who used the larger space as an opportunity to enlarge the ratio of scenery to track, and not fill the room with the usual spagetti bowl.

N-scale first - Altoona & Johnstown - however I am NOT going to be the one who has to make all those trees.

HO first - Kinesube Utsube Line - and I loved the fact that there was nary a duck-under in sight.

G first - Guess who?  But hey, I did G on a shelf layout once (though no where near that size) and man that takes cojones.

Overall favorites

Altoona & Johnstown

River Valley Lines

Kinesube Utsabe

[P & LE RR]

and even further...

 

"This layout is based on prototype track plans and prototype operations by Minnesota shortline Progressive Rail (PGR) in their Airlake Industrial Park in Lakeville, MN, ca 2002.  "