tomikawaTT wrote: Having taken Economics 101 and Marketing 101, I can appreciate where Atlas is coming from and where they have to go. I can also appreciate that they were sufficiently up front to give us fair warning.
Having taken Economics 101 and Marketing 101, I can appreciate where Atlas is coming from and where they have to go. I can also appreciate that they were sufficiently up front to give us fair warning.
TTT:
True enough, but then I realize that, adjusted for inflation, Atlas C100 HO NS turnouts cost ~7% more now than they did in 1990, and that those 1990 turnouts were made in the US to much better tolerances than Atlas has now, I suddenly lose that appreciation.
Here's an idea. Raise the price just a bit more, take control of production by moving it back here, and start making a consistent and reliable product. I'd be a lot more willing to pay $15 for excellence than $12 for mediocrity. I wouldn't want them to be another ME or Shinohara. I just think there is a market for rugged, reliable track components, stuff that works out of the box without too-high frogs or track out of gauge, and that can be taken up and relaid many times without damage to ultrafine detail...like those they made their name on. They need to return to that.
Has absolutely nothing to do with manufacture origination...anyone check the price of oil lately? Petro products are used in model manufacturing.
Now, we institute a "fair tax", ala Huckabee, and the price increases further! Amen.
Actually Atlas has held the line on their pricing in my estimation. In large scale Aristo Craft announced a price increase on their track and switches quite a few months ago. That would include brass and stainless track and switches. After the initial shock of their announcement and the outcry, prices were adjusted down a bit. Other manufacturers have also increased prices in nickel silver track.
The cost of the metals used in making the track is the reason as was stated earlier. The track is made under a contract at a set price for a period of time. When the contarct expires, a new contract is made and pricing will change as the market price on the metals needed has changed.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
R. T. POTEET wrote:The Atlas announcement of increased prices doesn't surprise me one iota; unfortunately I suspect that other manufacturers will be making similiar announcements shortly.
Or just quietly raise there prices like most everyone else and make no "big" announcement.
this is quite evident in Arizona where the increase in copper prices to over $2.00 a pound has reopened mines which had been closed for a decade or longer because of low price and low demand. This is great for the local economy but, in case nobody's noticed, it is going to drive the price of brass, nickle silver, wire, etc into the ceiling.
My uncle worked at a Bagdad AZ copper mine for years - he's retired now. I wonder if that mine will see a jump or re-open. Not sure if it is even open now. As for track, sounds like people aught to buy some now if they are going to need it just to get some before the prices go up again.
We are all going to have to make the choice of either taking our hobby dollars other places or adjusting to the increase i.e. absorbing these increase costs or going on a diet and cinching up our belts. For those of you in a position to do so you can - and will - put pressure on your employers for higher wages; if you are self employed you can - and will - raise the price of your services. Either way, the biggest promoter of inflation, is labor.
When I was working in an IT dept at a bank, the cost of healthcare always canceled out my cost of living increases every year. For those with a fixed disposable income, it just means buying less. I'm thankful that I have pretty much 90% of the rolling stock I will need and after this year, should only really need a few odd things to fill in some holes.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I hope its not too bad, I started planning a new layout in RTS...
Wait, February?
I NEED TO FIND SOME COAL HOPPERS!
riogrande5761 wrote: When I was working in an IT dept at a bank, the cost of healthcare always canceled out my cost of living increases every year. For those with a fixed disposable income, it just means buying less. I'm thankful that I have pretty much 90% of the rolling stock I will need and after this year, should only really need a few odd things to fill in some holes.
I work for a large IT outfit and it's pretty much the same thing here too... annual healthcare premium increases outstrip a (maybe) annual salary increase, so that you're actually behind year-to-year. Manufacturing guys complain about Mexico and China - my competition is India and Poland, Hungary, etc. Hard to hit your boss up for $$$ when "the other guy" off-shore will take $0.10 of a dollar to do the same thing. Most folks in these parts are just glad to have a job these days.
That being said, one benefit I've found in a tightening economy is learning how to stretch a dollar - something my grandparents, growing up in the Great Depression, learned in their day. I can't say the same for my Boomer parents, with their ever-increasing pay and benefits during their working years, had to deal with to any significant degree. So, perhaps a history lesson, but I'm taking clues from my Grandfolks' generation more than the others.
A prior poster nailed it well earlier in this thread - make use of what you've got and rationalize your plans to what is achievable, both in time and money. You don't need 150 locomotives and 1000+ freight cars to enjoy model railroading. I'm also going back to school for a new professional certification to ensure I keep working - hard to model railroad with no income and the bank knocking on your door.
secondhandmodeler wrote:It looks like a sales tactic disguised as a customer service message. Sure, they're helping you by informing you of the increase. They will reap huge benefits by doing you this 'service'. "Call in the next ten minutes and receive not one, but two wonder widgets."
I was thinking that too.
GREAT! And I still need about 20 turnouts and a couple hundred feet of flex track...
I think we can expect to see much more of this in the coming year. My LHS owner gave me a heads up this week when I stopped by to pick up some Peco N scale switches. He told me that the one's he had on hand would be the last he could offer at that price as a price increase of about $2-3 for those turnouts had already been announced. He gives a good discount, but he obviously can't eat all of that increase. $100 oil is just a micorcosm of the inflation that is affecting everythiong. I think we will see much more soon.
Ron
Owner and superintendant of the N scale Texas Colorado & Western Railway, a protolanced representaion of the BNSF from Fort Worth, TX through Wichita Falls TX and into Colorado.
Check out the TC&WRy on at https://www.facebook.com/TCWRy
Check out my MRR How-To YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/c/RonsTrainsNThings
Mitzel,
Its a hard thing in the IT world with constant retraining needed. If I didn't get back into my profession as a geologist, I'd have to have moved to keep working. In central NY, IT jobs are low paying and hard to find. The job market is so lousy, all companies know they can low ball pay. I got an MCSE in 2000 when I couldn't find any work as a geologist. I do hope to get out of this area in the next year or two.
accord1959 wrote:Psst, hey you know what? They have been gouging modelers for years, what ever dollar amount will bring in a profit that will support a better year than last then that's what it will sell for. There was probably a big boom year around 2000 where model railroading really had a sharp increase and the industry responded, better quality product and even bigger prices. The way I see it is, I like the quality of the products available now, I think they have been over priced for years, so don't try to cry the blues about why you have to increase your prices now, just eat it and finally give it back to the modeler.
So, have you been supporting these price gougers? You can always vote with your wallet and not buy any of these horribly over priced toys. Of course I see people with huge LCD TV's in thier living rooms they paid between 3 and 5 thousand dollars for every day. Not too long ago, people never spent more than 400-500 on a TV, now people are spending princely sums to have the latest toys. The way I see it is people are either flush with cash, or are buying things they can't afford. Probably some of each.
My philosophy as prices have climbed up higher and higher is to seek the best discount I can find. Last 3 or 4 years its been about a 30% discount on the average and sometimes less at train shows or a really good deal on Ebay. Yes, I assume this has put tons of pressure on brick and morter hobby shops because for many of us to continue to afford these high priced toys, we avoid the low discount shops and go to the high discount.
Does this mean higher master line locomotive pirces?
And what do you mean by that.. Half asleep
accord1959 wrote:Maybe it's time that they need to sit back and look at the big picture, if they make model railroading too expensive for the model railroader, who is left to buy the product?
Basically, if you can't afford something or the cost isn't worth it to you, don't buy it. The world will keep turning. Model RRing has always been a pricey hobby. If companies can't make a profit, why offer a product? I think Atlas will continue to sell stuff because they are one of the better companies. And Atlas created Trainman if you can't afford their regular line of HO diesels. Besides, right now Athearn has been offering what I want so they've been getting my purchases (ie tunnel motors and upcoming SD45's).
You seem to be implying that Atlas, Walthers, Athearn, et. al., are raising prices not because their own costs are rising, but simply out of naked greed. Given that the hobby spending comes solely out of discretionary income, they'd be slitting their own throats and none of them are that stupid.
People, the hobby industry is small potatoes as industries go. Nobody goes into it with the intent of becoming the next Bill Gates because the industry just ain't big enough to create billionaires. If some of you want to get reports on the toy and hobby industry to determine overall size and revenue, be my guest. It'll only cost you a few hundred dollars per report. http://www.marketresearch.com/product/display.asp?productid=1380457&xs=r
http://www.ibisworld.com/cart/default.aspx
Here's a some "free" info. However, remember that in the Toy and Hobby industry, model railroading is only a very small segment, much smaller than, say, video games.
http://www.hoovers.com/toy-and-hobby-stores/--ID__245--/free-ind-fr-profile-basic.xhtml
Notice that the total revenue for the entire toy and hobby industry is about $20 billion. This is the entire INDUSTRY, of which model railroading is just a very small part.
Now check the revenues for the TTM (trailing twelve months) for Apple Computer, a single COMPANY. http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=AAPL (page down a bit -it's $24 billion).
IOW, Apple is bigger than the entire industry of toys and hobbies (all kinds).
Andre
I could be wrong, but I think War of the Worlds created this kind of panic back in the 1930's.
Atlas simply stated that there would be some price increases and nominated the items affected, this escalated with the start of this forum to Atlas prices to Sharply Rise.
Now there are about half a dozen similar threads on here and the last one I read had an Atlas engine will cost $50.00 more, another, the increase will be at least 15%, looks like there is a lot of inside knowledge out there, maybe Atlas should be contacted and asked why they had to be honest and create another War of the Worlds panic with opinions from all the self dooming prophets.
Model Railroading is a hobby, you don't have to have an item, I don't buy brass, but I don't complain about it either, I drive a Ford, not a Lamboghini, give Atlas credit where its due and get back to enjoying the hobby, enjoy life with what you have and be thankful, it's too expensive to die.
Model Railroading is fun, as long as you make it that way.
Teditor.
Teditor
Psst, hey, you know what? There aren't any huge profits in model railroading. There aren't any Chinese gazillionaires who made their fortunes making locomotives, rolling stock or any of the other products we enjoy. They made their money making toys, Happy Meal prizes and such and picked up spare change taking contract work for the model railroad companies.
There are grocery stores that do more annual dollar volume than the typical model railroad company and your standard Wal-Mart SuperCenter does more than even many of the best-known names in the business.
It's already been pointed out that the past few years have seen substantial increases in the cost of materials. Zinc went up 300% last year, steel has been going up for several years (just ask any supplier to the auto industry), oil is up, which drives the cost of plastics and paints up and the list goes on. Even more critical is the increase in the cost of labor. I guess everyone over here thinks the Chinese are using prison labor in their factories but it's not true. They actually need skilled assemblers and the competition for those is fierce. The hobby manufacturers are in competition for those people with other Chinese industries and the Chinese government favors the other industries, which means the available skilled labor pool is shrinking and higher wages and better living conditions (many Chinese companies house and feed their employees) are the only way to attract workers. In addition, the Chinese goverment wants to promote factory construction and employment in the interior, so they are penalizing all the companies in Guangdong Province (which is where just about all the hobby and toy manufacturing is located) with higher taxes and higher utility costs.
Add to that the change in the market from catering to the craftsman to satisfying the person who wants ready-to-run. And that is a change in the market, i.e., what people are buying. It flat-out costs more to make products for these people. Complain if you like, but that is the reality of model railroading in the 21st Century. Look at the no-brainer layout kits on the market these days and even Woodlands Scenics is offering pre-built structures complete with details.
Far from gouging anyone, most of the hobby companies have eaten these increases as much as they could but the time has come where prices have to rise, with or without warning. There has to be some profit. Otherwise, why stay in business? If you're going to lose your shirt, forget the hobby business and head to Vegas. At least you can have fun and the drinks are free.
I don't like the price increases. For one thing, just as is true for lot of other people, my income hasn't keep pace with the increases in the cost of food, fuel, housing, etc. If you check the statistics from the U.S. government, you'll find the median household income hasn't kept up, either. For another thing, I know that every price increase means some lost sales, whether it's because someone can't afford the new price or because they think there is some deep, dark conspiracy among the robber barons of the model railroad industry.
I know a number of people in the industry, from manufacturers to distributors to retailers. This includes some CEOs. They're doing okay, but they aren't building McMansions in San Jose or lining up to buy Lamborghinis and Maybachs. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and the Walton kids have nothing to fear from them.
So forget the men in black, or imaginary suits at the Four Season discussing how to pillage the model railroader's wallet over caviar and Dom Perignon. Costs are going up and prices have to go up with them.
Bill C.
Teditor sez:
I think we all have to realize that moaning, groaning, complaining, kvetching, bellyaching and just generally feeling sorry for oneself is a growing sub-hobby within the hobby. Think about it. It's cheap and there are no greedy manufacturers ready to ask for your first-born child in return for a good complaint.
Sniveling and complaining about the hobby is a scratchbuilder's paradise. I'll grant you that some people do it better than others, but the overall level of craftsmanship is quite high. I think we ought to start a National Model Railroad Whiners Association (NMRWA). The first program we ought to implement is a set of standards by which we can judge complaints. I'd be willing to head up the Standards Committee.
Anyone else want to join?
Oh yeah, it just occurred to me that by setting up an organization to support this sub-hobby within the hobby that it wouldn't be long before there would be a group of people saying how standards of complaint have fallen since the golden age of the 1950's and how complaining is dying out as a hobby.
bcawthon wrote: accord1959 wrote:Psst, hey you know what? They have been gouging modelers for years, what ever dollar amount will bring in a profit that will support a better year than last then that's what it will sell for. There was probably a big boom year around 2000 where model railroading really had a sharp increase and the industry responded, better quality product and even bigger prices. The way I see it is, I like the quality of the products available now, I think they have been over priced for years, so don't try to cry the blues about why you have to increase your prices now, just eat it and finally give it back to the modeler.Psst, hey, you know what? There aren't any huge profits in model railroading. There aren't any Chinese gazillionaires who made their fortunes making locomotives, rolling stock or any of the other products we enjoy. They made their money making toys, Happy Meal prizes and such and picked up spare change taking contract work for the model railroad companies.There are grocery stores that do more annual dollar volume than the typical model railroad company and your standard Wal-Mart SuperCenter does more than even many of the best-known names in the business....... So forget the men in black, or imaginary suits at the Four Season discussing how to pillage the model railroader's wallet over caviar and Dom Perignon. Costs are going up and prices have to go up with them.Bill C.
There are grocery stores that do more annual dollar volume than the typical model railroad company and your standard Wal-Mart SuperCenter does more than even many of the best-known names in the business.......
Bill and Andre, you both said it better than I ever could have! No conspirorists to raid our wallets, and the sky isn't falling.
Atlas simply stated that there would be some price increases and nominated the items affected, this escalated with the start of this forum to Atlas prices to Sharply Rise.Now there are about half a dozen similar threads on here and the last one I read had an Atlas engine will cost $50.00 more,
Now there are about half a dozen similar threads on here and the last one I read had an Atlas engine will cost $50.00 more,
In retrospect, considering the many "sky is falling" topics the Atlas announcement has spawned, it probably would have been better if they said nothing at all and just went about their business pricing items as competitively as they can but keeping up with their production costs.
andrechapelon wrote:...I think we ought to start a National Model Railroad Whiners Association (NMRWA). The first program we ought to implement is a set of standards by which we can judge complaints. I'd be willing to head up the Standards Committee. Anyone else want to join?Oh yeah, it just occurred to me that by setting up an organization to support this sub-hobby within the hobby that it wouldn't be long before there would be a group of people saying how standards of complaint have fallen since the golden age of the 1950's and how complaining is dying out as a hobby.AndreAndre
I think we ought to start a National Model Railroad Whiners Association (NMRWA). The first program we ought to implement is a set of standards by which we can judge complaints. I'd be willing to head up the Standards Committee.
Are you going to have an achievement program so people can get certified as a Master Whiner?
Enjoy
Paul
IRONROOSTER wrote: andrechapelon wrote:... I think we ought to start a National Model Railroad Whiners Association (NMRWA). The first program we ought to implement is a set of standards by which we can judge complaints. I'd be willing to head up the Standards Committee. Anyone else want to join?Oh yeah, it just occurred to me that by setting up an organization to support this sub-hobby within the hobby that it wouldn't be long before there would be a group of people saying how standards of complaint have fallen since the golden age of the 1950's and how complaining is dying out as a hobby.AndreAndreAre you going to have an achievement program so people can get certified as a Master Whiner? EnjoyPaul
andrechapelon wrote:... I think we ought to start a National Model Railroad Whiners Association (NMRWA). The first program we ought to implement is a set of standards by which we can judge complaints. I'd be willing to head up the Standards Committee. Anyone else want to join?Oh yeah, it just occurred to me that by setting up an organization to support this sub-hobby within the hobby that it wouldn't be long before there would be a group of people saying how standards of complaint have fallen since the golden age of the 1950's and how complaining is dying out as a hobby.AndreAndre
Well, I was the Standards Chairman for the American Debating Association and you know how that went.
If you think model railroading is an expensive hobby, you could always take up golf, skiing,or my favorite, sailing.
hobo9941 wrote: If you think model railroading is an expensive hobby, you could always take up golf, skiing,or my favorite, sailing.
It's not necessary to play with Titleist Pro V1 balls, hit Ping clubs, or belong to a country club (although all of these are nice, I'll admit) to enjoy the game. I used to get my Top-Flite balls at K-Mart, played a reasonably priced set of clubs that I got at a golf warehouse type of place, and played on municipal courses. Would it have been nice to go the other route? Sure. But did I enjoy hacking my way around the course using what I had? Yeah (except for when I was in the deep stuff).
Model railroading can be viewed in much the same light. You don't need to have a huge layout or the latest in DCC, the most expensive brand of rolling stock, and sound equipped locos. Are they nice to have? Sure. Can you enjoy the hobby with less? Yeah, at least I think so.
ymmv
Ed
Or just one or two of those in the picture, not only do they cost gas when you drive them to school and such but they actually demand, demand I tell you to be fed. And I'll be darned if the thing they popped out of isn't high maintenance as well, own car, food and sometimes even clothes, even though I don't know why she needs them.
Magnus
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.