Bad LHS Experience and the Demise of LHS, Murder or Suicide?

[vsmith]

In retrospect, if we are to try to taking anything from the incident, this is what I would take from it.  I would make it a practise to ask if my contribution would be welcome in a conversation that up until then had been exclusive to me. 

We should remember that in the store owner's environment, close to Christmas, wanting to keep his business in the black, he was perhaps intently focused on what his customer was describing to him...he was trying to problem-solve.  He was being consulted as a knowledgeable person...by the customer.  So, the interjection, no matter how reasoned or well-meaning, was an intrusion...how else to account for his outburst except that it was perceived as an unwelcome attempt to undermine, or to neutralize, his attempts do solve the customer's needs himself?  At the very least it disrupted his train of thought.

So, once again, I would have interjected only to the extent of asking to have something pointed out to me that I was having difficulty finding, or to ask if my idea would be welcome at that point.  Clearly, it was not.

I don't for a second defend this store owner....as I said what he did was wrong.  But I think that my explanation at least accounts for it.

-Crandell

Interesting, this sums up pretty well what I also concluded from it.

I plan to be much more cautious before I ever offer a comment again, even if it means not speaking when I know I can contribute something, better to keep to myself unless I'm pretty familiar with the company I am in. Sad. 

I'm planning to go to a train show near here in Anahiem tommorow morning, I doubt this store will be there, even if it has a booth I plan to stear well clear. Again no point in any further contact.

[motard98]

I also had a bad experience with a local model railroad hobby shop and the e-tailers have benefited.  It seems to me that some in the business are either not interested in making money or just don't understand how to treat customers who have plenty of other buying options.  It's really a sad state for the LHS who behave this way.

[SilverSpike]

Victor,

I think you handled the whole situation better than I would have if I were in your shoes. That was just plain ole horrible customer service on the part of the owner if you ask me. What you did was just being neighborly and friendly, and quite the opposite of the behavior exhibited by the owner.

I have been on the business side of various customer service (CS) industries for 28 + years including landscaping services, restaurant industry services, and now in the information technology field. The "Golden Rule" ("The customer is always right") of customer service is as important today was it was 100 years ago.

Now I can tell you that the customer may not be right 100% of the time! There are some who really are shysters and try to use unethical means to and end. But as a customer service representative all business dealings must be done in an ethical and professional manner, so while the customer may not always be right, as a CS associate we must treat them as if they are right!

Knowing this, you have to treat them with extra acumen and patience really comes into play here too. In your case, you have a perfect right to pen a well drafted letter and voice your experience to the local news paper editorial section, maybe that kind of exposure will bring the owner around.

I can't remember how many times as a restaurant manager I wanted to tell off some diners because I knew they were complaining to the wait staff just to get a free meal and really had nothing wrong with their dining experience. But in keeping with the Golden Rule I would honor their complaints too with the same honest and customer building response that legitimate complainers would receive. Meanwhile, we are short a cook and a dishwasher in the kitchen and I have to be pulled into the dining room to handle a customer complaint. Like I had time for that when we were slammed on a Friday night at 7:00 PM, the bartender needs $200.00 in change from the office safe, the door is swinging, and were are on a 45 minute wait, oh and that meat order that was supposed to arrive before noon just showed up and you have to go unlock the back door for the delivery guy. In other words, a regular hectic and stressful day on the job, and did I take it out on the customer.....no!

In your case you weren't even complaining, you were just trying to fit in with the clientele and business owner in a little conversation. He had no right to yell at you, none at all! I think you were fine with saying what you did, they were in your close proximity and you were just offering a suggestion. It's not like you were telling him what to do, but were offered up one option for further thought.

If the owner of the LHS in question wants to build some community among his customer base he had better start treating them with more respect and opportunity.

At the LHS that I frequent not only are multiple people having conversations, but typically when a bunch of us are there we all end up having many conversations and just shooting the bull too! No one gets hurt, or is told not to butt in the conversation in fact it is encouraged that you add whatever you want to say on the topic.

In your case I am not sure if I would go back to the LHS again, depends if it was the only one in town, but in your case seems to be more than a few, heck it's LA right! The only reason I would go back there would be to reconcile with the owner and ask if he even remembered me, he may not even remember the incident. But the real loss is his, not yours, he lost a customer, and you lost nothing.

But you could potentially gain the respect of the owner by going back. Ever hear the phrase, "snatch victory from the jaws of defeat"? Maybe it was a bad day for the owner, maybe you could go back and start up your own conversation and see if he remembers you, mention that you were in there a few days earlier and might have gotten off on the wrong foot, but wanted to make amends and start over. Heck, he might even reward you for coming back.

I know my response was long winded and repeated what some of the others stated above, but I think when the dust settles for you Victor, you might want to revisit the shop and make amends with the guy. If it does not work out in a nice way, then you know in your heart and mind that you did all you could do, and know that the guy really is in the wrong business.

[Anonymous]

What I would do if I were you is write a letter to the owner of the hobby shop

Problem was, he was the owner!

SilverSpike; VERY WELL SAID!

[tstage]

Somehow I think thats about as far as it would get conversation wise before more yelling would insue. I usually have a pretty good ability to size up other people personalities and my instict was just screaming "walk away from this nut and never go back". No need for further contact, no point, he knew *** well he lost a customer. The only thing I could do was NOT get down into the mud with him.

It really doesnt matter for me what his side is, it wont make me return to that store and my experience is 9 time out of 10 further contact, even second person like thru the mail, does NOT resolve the issue but only makes things even uglier as the other party gets even angrier and resentful of the contact. It gives their anger a purpose and a reason.

Victor,

It is your choice.  I thought I'd throw the idea out there anyhow.

Tom 

[Driline]

In retrospect, if we are to try to taking anything from the incident, this is what I would take from it.  I would make it a practise to ask if my contribution would be welcome in a conversation that up until then had been exclusive to me. 

We should remember that in the store owner's environment, close to Christmas, wanting to keep his business in the black, he was perhaps intently focused on what his customer was describing to him...he was trying to problem-solve.  He was being consulted as a knowledgeable person...by the customer.  So, the interjection, no matter how reasoned or well-meaning, was an intrusion...how else to account for his outburst except that it was perceived as an unwelcome attempt to undermine, or to neutralize, his attempts do solve the customer's needs himself?  At the very least it disrupted his train of thought.

So, once again, I would have interjected only to the extent of asking to have something pointed out to me that I was having difficulty finding, or to ask if my idea would be welcome at that point.  Clearly, it was not.

I don't for a second defend this store owner....as I said what he did was wrong.  But I think that my explanation at least accounts for it.

-Crandell

Crandell you're way to diplomatic...and nice

You must remember that some people are just plain asses, and no form of pleasantry or poetic use of the English language is going to change the situation.

 

[greendiamond]

I was on vacation several years ago in Indianapolis.  Checked the local phone book for hobby shops, particularly advertising trains.  Visited three of them.  One was closed-only open two days a week.  The other was very friendly but I owned more train items than they had in inventory, but I purchased some photos they had for sale. Then I stopped in at the third store on the South side of town.  Great shop with a huge inventory.  I selected over $300 worth of neat old stuff still sitting on their shelves and took them to the check out counter.  I whipped out the ole Visa card and got 'We don't take charge cards'.  Then I asked if it was ok to write a check to which I received 'No problem!'  That was until it was an out of state check. Whoa..... 'No outa state checks taken here'.  My retort was 'then no business transacted here' and left.  Man that was some stuff I had been in search of for years, but it was not to be had that day from that store.   Found the stuff on ebay later. Oh Well.

Thankfully I have several really good shops in my area from which I can purchase or order items which I try to conduct business. There is one in the Chicago suburbs that I walked out of over 15 years ago and have not returned to because it was a hassle for him to special order MDC 12 pack items and not buy the stuff on his shelf in which I had no interest.  It just blew me away that he turned away instant inventory turn over and cash in the pocket. But it was his loss, as I just went to some other stores a little further from me.

And so it goes...... retail..... personalities............  we're all different and that's what makes the world go around.

Sometimes it's best to speak with your feet and let your wallet open at another establishment.

[NevinW]

My two cents:  Unfortunately in my experience this is not an isolated issue and is a serious part of the problem that is leading to the demise of many model railroad hobby shops.  I have been modeling seriously for 30 years, I travel frequently and I like to visit hobby shops.  Many, like Caboose Hobbies in Denver, have been great and fun to visit.  Other experiences have not been so favorable.  All too often, I have been exposed to rude remarkably owners and employees and many who are remarkably clueless about what they are selling.  Two of my favorites were "there is no such thing as 2-rail O scale" and "I never heard of narrow gauge".   A long time ago, when  I  was a student I got my rearend chewed off by a gentleman visiting a hobby shop when I was trying to ask questions about a certain narrow gauge engine (I won't say what scale, as it will give away who this was).  I found out later he was the owner of a company that makes narrow gauge locomotives and has a reputation for being very difficult and rude.  Often I notice that a favorite good hobby shop will change ownership and immediately will go into a serious decline. 

My point is that all too often, many hobby shops are run by people who apparently don't understand the hobby or for that matter, retail sales.  It isn't just the internet that is causing so many to close.  -  Nevin

[riogrande5761]

What I would do if I were you is write a letter to the owner of the hobby shop

Problem was, he was the owner!

Yes, I know that and meant it on purpose.  You want the guy who owns the shop to understand his actions affect his business and the people who shop there.  If the owner was the jerk, he should know he was a jerk.  We can tell him that nicely to see if he isn't beyond redemption though.

[vsmith]

I was on vacation several years ago in Indianapolis.  Checked the local phone book for hobby shops, particularly advertising trains.  Visited three of them.  One was closed-only open two days a week.  The other was very friendly but I owned more train items than they had in inventory, but I purchased some photos they had for sale. Then I stopped in at the third store on the South side of town.  Great shop with a huge inventory.  I selected over $300 worth of neat old stuff still sitting on their shelves and took them to the check out counter.  I whipped out the ole Visa card and got 'We don't take charge cards'.  Then I asked if it was ok to write a check to which I received 'No problem!'  That was until it was an out of state check. Whoa..... 'No outa state checks taken here'.  My retort was 'then no business transacted here' and left.  Man that was some stuff I had been in search of for years, but it was not to be had that day from that store.   Found the stuff on ebay later. Oh Well.

Ha! When this was? Wait, don't tell me...Back in 1972, and he didnt want to take your BankAmericard or your Diners Club cards? LOL

Holy Moly what an out of date dinosaur! This guy must also think Debit cards are the devil shingles also. With the way prices are these days I cannot imagine someone refusing a credit or debit card today, even our 99 cent stores take cards, it would be pure fiscal suicide for anyone other than the ice cream truck driver, and I think even he might take them.

[Soo Line fan]

I remember one car dealership, which had a sign over the parts counter.

The sign stated what a customer was not: "Someone to argue with, ignore, ridicule, etc, etc."

Then at the end the sign said what a customer was: "The life blood of this and every single business."

Sadly some will never realize this.

Jim

[TheK4Kid]

My Dad tught me long ago, The CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT,EVEN IF HE IS 100 PERCENT WRONG!

Your Dad obviously never heard a customer say, " Hey, I can get all this stuff 25% cheaper online. You'll match that price, right?"

 

Midnight Railroader, Al Gore was still a VERY YOUNG KID then, and HADN'T INVENTED the INTERNET yet for all of us to use when my Dad said this!!!!!!! LOL! 

But I'm sure old Al was soldering transistors and gizmos together back then working on the internet idea he later claimed to invent! LOL! 

Sorry Midnight Railroader, but you left yourself open to this reply, and I JUST COULDN'T RESIST!!!
Sent in a kind but good fashioned humrous way!!!

TheK4Kid 

[luvadj]

I'd say at the point of when purchasing outside of a shop I owned/operated became the topic (other than my suggestions of checking here or there) then the suggestor is no longer my customer but an agent of the competition

Thank you...that's it exactly. The customer is always right, even if he's wrong. That's customer service, which the OP'er is talking about..being rude to the OP was uncalled for, and unthinkable in my book. I would have welcomed the OP chiming in as it could have enhanced my sale as well as my knowledge base to help the next customer.... 

[luvadj]

Wait, so if I'm shopping (and buying) at your store and someone asks about a product you don't have but I know someone else in town does, when I point this out I become an "agent of the competition?"

Have you ever seen the original "Miracle on 34th Street"?...Macy's Santa sends customers to Gimbels....same idea....I do it all the time and my customers come back...the idea is to help your customer get what they want. It's not about aiding the competitition; maybe in the short run, but the customer knows you care about his/her needs.

 

 

[on30francisco]

vsmith,That is one of the many problems face in todays hobby you are either a member of the "good old boy" club or your a outsider.Shoot not so long ago anybody could join in on a hobby shop discussion without being a member in the "Good Old Boys" club.

Can you imagine what a new modeler or a prospective modeler and I will add future customer would of thought?

I fully agree with your action..That was the best course to take.

I've had a similar experience in a LHS. A person was inquiring about On3 turnouts and I interjected that he could try to get them from B&K. (On3 turnouts are a speciality item and are very rarley, if ever, carried by LHSs). The clerk gave me a look that could stop a train and gruffly told me to shut up.  I said "Excuuuse me!" and put the merchandise I was about to purchase on the counter and walked out while saying out loud "I'll order online where it's much cheaper than your overpriced ****." I have that the LHSs that I've been to seem to be a clubhouse for the "Good Old Boys" talking relentlessly about their projects or equipment that's a micron too short of the prototype. I've just about given up on LHSs as I get much more courteous service, advice, and good prices from online dealers. Talk about being an outsider, I'm into Large Scale and to those cliques that's worse than painting a smiling face onthe front of a (HO) loco. Because of those prevailing attitudes, I'm becoming more of a lone wolf and have to get most of my information from forums, specialty magazines, and online sources.

[andrechapelon]

My Dad tught me long ago, The CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT,EVEN IF HE IS 100 PERCENT WRONG!

Your Dad obviously never heard a customer say, " Hey, I can get all this stuff 25% cheaper online. You'll match that price, right?"

 

Midnight Railroader, Al Gore was still a VERY YOUNG KID then, and HADN'T INVENTED the INTERNET yet for all of us to use when my Dad said this!!!!!!! LOL! 

But I'm sure old Al was soldering transistors and gizmos together back then working on the internet idea he later claimed to invent! LOL! 

Sorry Midnight Railroader, but you left yourself open to this reply, and I JUST COULDN'T RESIST!!!
Sent in a kind but good fashioned humrous way!!!

TheK4Kid 

Another myth BUSTED: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

Andre

[HeavyDuty]

I would go back to the store.

 

At night.

 

And superglue his door locks.

 

[riogrande5761]

The clerk gave me a look that could stop a train and gruffly told me to shut up.  I said "Excuuuse me!" and put the merchandise I was about to purchase on the counter and walked out while saying out loud "I'll order online where it's much cheaper than your overpriced ****." 

Good for you!  It serves the rude LHS guy right to lose your sale.  Again, the old saying is true, the customer is always right.  I grew up with that in the 60's.  We can always vote with our feet like you did. 

[Paul3]

The customer is NOT always right.  I've been in retail for over 18 years, and I can tell you that customers deserve respect, they deserve good service, and they deserve an overall pleasant shopping experience that brings them back year after year.  However, they don't deserve to be always right.  That would be a myth (IMHO perpetrated by shoppers & marketers, not small retailers).

For example, I work in an small independant bookstore, and years ago I had a lady in her 40's come in with a returned book who wanted her money back because she hated it and didn't read more than the first page.  It cost $14.00.  I gently explained that we don't do cash returns (as clearly posted in our shop and on every receipt), but were more than happy to offer her an exhange for anything in the store for $14.00, or give her a $14.00 gift certificate that she could use later or she could give it to someone else.  Nope, she wanted only cash.  After going back and forth a little (calmly, tho' my frustration was growing), I sighed, figured I'll fork over the $14.00 even tho' my boss was gonna yell at me, and said, "Do you at least have the receipt?"  Her reply was, "Well, I didn't buy it here.  I bought it at Barnes and Nobles."  I'm sure you could have caught flies with my mouth because it was hanging open.  I told her, "Why don't you return it to them?"  She said, "They wouldn't give me the cash, either."  "Well ma'am," I said, "I'm afraid I can't help you."  She told me how I could give her the $14.00, sell the book to someone else for $14.00, and I wouldn't be out any money at all.  My reply that I wouldn't be making any money on the deal didn't seem to go over well at all.  She harumphed, grabbed her book and left in a huff like it was my fault she was trying to rip me off.

Just one example of many that I have that the customer is not always right. 

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[twhite]

Paul--

Not to get completely off subject, but it reminds me of a story that happened to me when I was working in retail at a music shoppe while working on my Master's degree.  We had a 'NO CASH REFUND' policy, mainly because we sold copyrighted sheet music.  A lady came in with a metronome that she'd bought several weeks before, said she wanted her cash back. I calmly pointed to the NO CASH REFUND sign above the counter and said, "I'll be happy to give you a credit."  "No, I want my MONEY BACK!"  I again pointed to the sign, which was very prominent (among other NO CASH REFUND signs all over the store) and smiled and said "I'm sorry. But you see the sign--"  She stared daggers at me and said, "I DON'T READ SIGNS." to which I sweetly replied, "I bet you're a lot of fun at a 4-way Stop."  She stomped out of the store, metronome in hand.  Shouldn't have said it, I know, but I couldn't help it.  Went into teaching, instead. 

I don't work retail any more, you couldn't get me to under ANY circumstances.  And for the most part, anyone in retail deserves not only my sympathy but my courtesy. 

However, the salesclerk in the hobby shop was WAY out of line IMO.  I've been in my two LHS numerous times where a person shopping for something will get into conversations not only with the salesclerk but various other customers--and the salesclerk will always just let it happen.  Frankly, it happened to me, one time at Roseville Hobbies when I couldn't make up my mind about an item, the clerk and another customer and I got into a conversation about the pros and cons and the salesclerk looked at me and said, "You know, I FORGOT about that one--" and I ended up spending more than I had come in for.  And EVERYONE was happy.  No confrontation, no nothing.  I got something more than I expected, the clerk got a larger sale than he thought, and the other customer and I had a very interesting conversation.  Worked out fine.  Okay, I spent more than I was thinking about, but OBOY, was that item worth it--for everyone!

Tom  

[UNIONPACIFIC4018]

I know I am going to hang myself but you said it was a woman...arent women the ones who go out buy fancy dresses wear them once to the event and then return them?

[riogrande5761]

The customer is NOT always right.

  Paul A. Cutler III

Well, bleh bleh!

Maybe I should have qualiifed the term customer <> idiots!  I'm talking customers in the traditional "old school" sense.  I think "most" people get what I mean.  Geez, lets have a common sense approach to this issue!  I"ve worked enough retail to know that there are people who will try to rip a store off.  Those aren't customers Paul, they are con artists and crooks.

/topic

[concretelackey]

I know I am going to hang myself but you said it was a woman...arent women the ones who go out buy fancy dresses wear them once to the event and then return them?

Wait and see which gender buys big screen TVs 2-3 weeks prior to the super bowl only to return them after........

[vsmith]

I know I am going to hang myself but you said it was a woman...arent women the ones who go out buy fancy dresses wear them once to the event and then return them?

Wait and see which gender buys big screen TVs 2-3 weeks prior to the super bowl only to return them after........

Interesting, no wonder so many places only give store credit for returns. That got me thinking I wonder how many people have actually bought a train set for around the tree, only to return it on the 26th...

[UNIONPACIFIC4018]

Oh yeah forgot about that I really don't follow sports or the big screen craze but I can see it happening.

[Paul3]

twhite,
I've been done that road, before.  Sigh.  People just don't read...even in a bookstore.  We have signs on top of our copier that tells you how to use it.  Do you think anyone bothers to read it?  Nope.  It makes me wonder how some of these people manage to get dressed every morning, let along drive to the store in the first place.  "Sir, you have to turn the copier on first, otherwise it will eat your dime."  (customer then drops dime in before turning it on)  "Ma'am, you have to turn on the copier first.  It's the red switch on the left."  (customer looks to right)  "No, your other left."  (turns copier on, starts hitting the button)  "Did you put any money in it, ma'am?"  (can't find coin slot, even with 12" long red arrow pointing to it with "COINS" printed on it)  Etc.

I did have a costly "buttinski" once.  I had a regular customer come in and buy books using her credit (bring in used books for credit for up to half off on other used books).  As she's checking out, another non-regular customer is standing in line.  First customer completes sale and moves out of the way, but strikes up friendly conversation with second customer (like old friends).  As I ring up the second customer, the first customer whips out her credit and says here, apply it towards this ladies sale.  I reluctantly say okay because I thought maybe they were related, or neighbors, or something.  Nope, total strangers.  Bam!  Just like that, she cost my store about $24.  The regular customer tells the second one, "Isn't it great?  I just saved you a bunch of money!"  Then she laughs.  I grumbled to myself for quite a while after that one.

UP4018,
I ain't touching that line.  BTW, it's a common thing at Radio Shack that metal detectors get bought on Fridays and returned on Mondays...covered in beach sand.

riogrande5761,
Bleh, bleh, yourself.  Just what is a customer in the "old school" sense?  I'm only 32, so you'll have to clue me in.  "The Customer Is Always Right" looks like a fairly basic statement.  It's wrong, but it is simple: Give the customer what they want when they want it, no questions asked.  That's what it sounds like to me.  Folks say that often enough, they start to believe it.  The sooner people figure out that the the customer is not always right (and everyone stops trotting out that ol' chestnut), the better off we'll all be.

BTW, what does "<>" mean, anyways?  Less than, greater than?

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[eeyore9900]

People just don't read...even in a bookstore.

& also libraries!

I can attest to that, working in one for 25 1/2 years to the day. That copier story is extremely true. We've dealt with exactly the same, not to mention the ones that will be coming in for the next 4 months asking "Where are your tax forms?" even though they'll be in plain view upon coming in the front door with a sign that says "TAX FORMS" above them.

My 2 LHS's are pretty good IMO-a bit distant for me, but good folk run them. But does anyone remember that commercial 10 or so years ago for the Yellow Pages, that featured a grouchy fella running a classic toy store with no customers. When asked by a Yellow Pages rep why he didn't advertise in the YP, the fella answered, "Well, if I did, people would come in & "touch" "my" toys....I don't like people "touching" my toys."

Upon seeing that, it rang a bell with me some 20 years ago. I was dormant in the hobby at the time (I was about 21 or so) but still had the interest. A local shopping mall did a "train" theme one weekend, featuring various merchants that had model trains or the equivalent in the walkways. A buddy & I went up to check it out, & stopped at one that had various train books for sale. A few months previously he had a Lionel question, & not being too "Lionel Savvy" (I'm HO) I knew of a book that could answer his question that we'd had at the library but had discarded several years before. They had the book, & I picked it up to show him. "This is what I was talking about." I said. The next thing I knew, The lady at the booth said snottily, "If you don't plan on buying that book, don't touch them." I just looked at her, & silently put it back. The next thing I knew, my buddy blew a gasket at her, loudly telling her, "How are people supposed to know if they want to buy something if they don't pick it up & look at it?" he went on a little more, & ended it with (pointing at me) "& let me tell you one more thing..that guy there probably knows more about trains than you'll ever know!" That wasn't really true, especially being Lionel, but he left the lady speechless. I got his attention & we quickly walked away. Never saw or heard of their business again-not surprising. Just my

(PS) years later my bud purchased at an auction an early 30's Lionel set which he prominently features on a ledge in his log home. )

[steinjr]

BTW, what does "<>" mean, anyways?  Less than, greater than?

 "<>" is a a way of saying "not equal to" or "different from" in some of the computer programming and/or query languages. So "customers <> idiots" most likely was intended to mean "customers that are not idiots". A couple of other semi-cutesy ways of expressing the same in programming speak would have been "X .NE. Y" or "X != Y".

 As for the rest, for whatever it is worth, I agree with you. It is not a given that the customer always is right, and it is not a given that you always can give the customer what he or she wants (or demands).

 Quite obviously some of us customers sometimes act like idiots in some situations. Not all customers and not always, but most of us get unreasonable and cranky in some situations some times. Same applies to people who own local hobby stores or work in local hobby stores. It is part of being human.

 Someone met a somewhat rude store owner. Customer got his feelings hurt, and decided to take his business somewhere else. Should have been the end of the story. Big deal. Not!.

 Except that the Original Poster just had to get his hurt feelings validated by asking a jumbled question like "So I wanted to see how many others also feel that a major reason we are losing hobby shops is more due to many small self inflicted wounds, a self inflicted "suicide" if you will, like this incident, than to due with any loss of business thru the internet."

 Never mind that the question is poorly formulated - reformulated it would be something like "Do you think that impoliteness to customers is a large contributing factor in the drop in sales in some local hobby stores".

 To which the obvious answer is "yes". Some stores obviously will lose sales (and eventually be forced to shut down), because the owners/employees are worse at customer care than most other store owners/employees.

 A different question would be : "Is impoliteness to customers the main cause (or a major contributing cause) for the trend of smaller local specialist shops closing down?".

 To which the equally obvious answer is "not very likely". There aren't all that many blacksmiths around to shoe horses anymore either - some of the blacksmiths probably were polite to their customers, some probably were rude to their customers.

 Same with downtown mom and pop grocery stores losing out to big boxes at the edge of town - some were very polite, some were rude. Both are gone - even though the rude ones probably went first.

 It is called "economy of scale". Most small brick and mortar shops have relatively high fixed costs relative to turnover (and profit), and cannot beat the prices of those internet stores which has a higher turnover and/or much lower fixed cost.

 But by all means - I guess this thread will just meander on until one has managed to get a sample of more or less rambling anecdotal "war stories" from maybe a couple of hundred people. 

 Which of course will be a sample way too small, way too skewed by self selection and too unclearly formulated to be used as input for any kind of meaningful analysis.

 So this thread won't give us the tools to say anything meaningful backed by hard facts about the reasons for why small local speciality stores are closing down.

 Essensially, we can only talk about our more or less fuzzy feelings on something more or less along the lines of "what society needs to go back to way things were in the good old times is more good old values like proper deference to customers".

 Oh well, at least it will probably assuage the vaguely guilty feelings of some former LHS customers, if they can walk away from the thread with the feeling "LHS owners have themselves to blame, for not showing enough deference to their customers", rather than admit the crass fact that customers are voting with their feet (or keyboards) - having polite people you can talk with face to face when buying model train stuff apparently is not enough reason for most potensial customers to eat up the difference in price between the LHS and internet stores.

 Or even more crassly formulated : "lower price beats higher quality more often than not". No matter how much people claim that they are willing to pay more for higher quality work, when push comes to shove, higher quality often seem to lose out to lower prices.

 Except for a relatively few customers, who is willing to pay quite a bit more for higher quality and personal service. Either because quality actually is that important to them, or because buying more expensive (and better) stuff is a way of signalling "I have enough money that I don't have to think about costs".

 But most places there just isn't enough such customers to keep a LHS in business. What you get is people who demand good personal service, but at the same time is not really willing to pay higher prices. Or put another way : they want to have their cake and eat it too.

 And at the same time bellyache a bit about "O tempora mores" ("oh, what times, what customs" - "things were so much better when I was young(er) - prices were lower, store owners were more polite and the girls who flirted with me were prettier"). Or words more or less to that effect.

 It is kinda like a Gilbert and Sullivan musical - it is full of words and music, signifying nothing.

 And I just wasted a lot of electrons writing this long (and blindingly obvious) post. Might as well post it, and be a contributing cause in a local hobby store (thread) being shut down due to a lack of politeness/deference to patrons, eh ?

 Oh well - at least it didn't cost the gentle reader any more than he or she paid me to write this

 Grin,
 Stein

 

[KingConrail76]

The customer is NOT always right.  I've been in retail for over 18 years, and I can tell you that customers deserve respect, they deserve good service, and they deserve an overall pleasant shopping experience that brings them back year after year.  However, they don't deserve to be always right.  That would be a myth (IMHO perpetrated by shoppers & marketers, not small retailers).

For example, I work in an small independant bookstore, and years ago I had a lady in her 40's come in with a returned book who wanted her money back because she hated it and didn't read more than the first page.  It cost $14.00.  I gently explained that we don't do cash returns (as clearly posted in our shop and on every receipt), but were more than happy to offer her an exhange for anything in the store for $14.00, or give her a $14.00 gift certificate that she could use later or she could give it to someone else.  Nope, she wanted only cash.  After going back and forth a little (calmly, tho' my frustration was growing), I sighed, figured I'll fork over the $14.00 even tho' my boss was gonna yell at me, and said, "Do you at least have the receipt?"  Her reply was, "Well, I didn't buy it here.  I bought it at Barnes and Nobles."  I'm sure you could have caught flies with my mouth because it was hanging open.  I told her, "Why don't you return it to them?"  She said, "They wouldn't give me the cash, either."  "Well ma'am," I said, "I'm afraid I can't help you."  She told me how I could give her the $14.00, sell the book to someone else for $14.00, and I wouldn't be out any money at all.  My reply that I wouldn't be making any money on the deal didn't seem to go over well at all.  She harumphed, grabbed her book and left in a huff like it was my fault she was trying to rip me off.

Just one example of many that I have that the customer is not always right. 

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

I'm not going to use up a bunch of space on the server to explain my experiance in retail sales of all kinds, and of all differant products, over a period of 20 some years....but... 

I beg to differ, IMHO the customer IS always right...if you want them to return to make more purchases in the future.

Your example is very much the extreme example of not at all related to the original post. You sight in your story that the woman WAS NOT a customer of YOUR store, but someone try'n to get over on you. You are correct that, in that case, the woman was wrong, and most likely committing a misdemeanor crime, BUT SHE WAS NOT YOUR CUSTOMER. You also sight yourself as trying to do the right thing, by making the "customer" happy, and refunding her cash BEFORE you realized her scam. Give yourself more credit, and be honest with yourself...you really do believe that the customer is always right, even if it violates "store policy".

[Anonymous]

Formerly a hobby shop manager, I will make a case for the other side. First, YOU were not the customer, so "the customer is always right" does not apply. Second, much as you may believe in your own expertise, you are not always right. This is a real problem with  some model railroaders who think they are experts in the hobby. Unless you know the shop owner well, it is never proper to stick your nose in his business. Unfortunately in model railroading, many think they must have the latest and greatest which is not always the case. Many times "butt-in customers" will extole the virtues of "x, y, or z" when such is not required for the actual customer. Upgrading a beginner to Red Caboose kits may well not be in the best interest of the customer. You might be surprised at how many times that actually happens. In fact, this seems to be a fatal flaw in model railroading, that so many are "experts". Remember, in any situation, "your mileage may vary".  Things do not always have to be "your way or the highway".

As for as " so and so does the trains" it is often the case that a certain employee has knowledge in a certain area, and rather than disseminate wrong information, it is better to leave  the opportunity to the person  with the proper knowledge. In fact many shop employees are put to work because they are quite knowledgeable in certain areas. You would not want to buy a new car from the janitor of a car dealership. As far as mentioning the car dealership, try sticking your nose in a transaction there and see how fast you are given the "bum's rush" or another salesman will  leap in to separate you from the real customer. In any business, it is never proper to butt in.

While I agree the situation seems harsh, think of the other side. Try butting in the preacher's sermon on Sunday, or giving advice to a doctor who is consulting with a patient.

Don't matter what side of the counter you're on. I've worked in quite a few service jobs myself and was part owner of a contract cleaning service and I can tell ya acting like that will get you into one of several scenarios running the gamut in unplesantness. At best the customer will never come back, at medium you'll get sued, at worst you may have just found someone about to go triple postal and will come back and splatter your guts allover the floor with a pump action Mossberg. If you wish to deal with the public, engage patience.

In the words of Sun Tzu "Choose your battles wisely and choose only battles you can win" because in reality you can't win them all and sometimes victory may be a pyrrhic victory. Trust me I've dealt with plenty of people who make me want to punch the wall or rip my hair out and call them every profanity or applicable ethnic slur in the book too. Sometimes you have to hold your tongue in life.