Joe, I would really like to know where you can get "nice fleet decoders ... circa $12 each in quantity". I have ~70 locomotives, so if I'm going to convert from DC to DCC, price is a consideration. Even at $12 apiece, that's $840 just for the freakin' decoders!
P.S. Please allow me to take exception to your statement "If you want to get beyond the train set level in the hobby, then DCC's the way to go". That makes it sound like if you're still running antiquated old DC you're not a "real" model railroader. Elitist horse puckey. Just because certain magazines push that agenda doesn't mean it's so. If I was starting all over again, I probably would go DCC, but a lot of folks in this hobby don't have a few thousand extra dollars laying around to convert of their already-working-nicely-thank-you DC systems. #end of rant#
If you really want DCC go to Tonys Train Exchange. He has reasonably priced DCC units and decodars of all makes.
Call his toll free number and speak with him he will answer all of your questions and steer you in the right direction.
I highly reccommend him.
The Conductor
riverotter1948 wrote:Joe, I would really like to know where you can get "nice fleet decoders ... circa $12 each in quantity". I have ~70 locomotives, so if I'm going to convert from DC to DCC, price is a consideration. Even at $12 apiece, that's $840 just for the freakin' decoders! P.S. Please allow me to take exception to your statement "If you want to get beyond the train set level in the hobby, then DCC's the way to go". That makes it sound like if you're still running antiquated old DC you're not a "real" model railroader. Elitist horse puckey. Just because certain magazines push that agenda doesn't mean it's so. If I was starting all over again, I probably would go DCC, but a lot of folks in this hobby don't have a few thousand extra dollars laying around to convert of their already-working-nicely-thank-you DC systems. #end of rant#
river:
Actually, I agree with you on the DC/DCC thing. My remarks were for newcomers to the hobby, not a judgement ruling on existing modelers. No slight on those who got in the hobby years ago and are still straight DC.
But for newcomers, if you want to go beyond trainset level in the hobby, don't even give straight DC serious consideration for a larger layout. DCC just has too much to offer these days for newcomers -- and that's my only point.
BUT I OWN TOO MANY LOCOS
Even though I feel going DCC is a "no-brainer" for newcomers, there's still the question of what us "old timers" in the hobby should do with DCC.
I hear the "I've got a bazillion DC locos" argument for not going DCC a lot, and I understand what you're saying. Adding decoders to that many locos is a lot of money and quite a bit of work. However, conisder this:
1. Of your 70 locos, you probably have a dozen or so favorites that you run a lot.
2. You can't run all 70 locos at once, and in fact you probably only run 1 or 2 at a time.
3. Some of your locos you may seldom run because they are such poor performers.
4. You probably have some locos that are a bit stiff and are not excellent slow speed performers, so you my not run them as much.
By being honest with yourself about your fleet of locos and realizing you don't run them all at once, you can develop a realtively painless DCC conversion strategy. And with what DCC offers you, I think it merits some serious consideration.
CONVERSION STRATEGIES
If you run more than one train at a time, then you already have the ability to select between different power sources, so you could replace one of those straight DC sources with DCC. Now you can take your pick -- throw all the toggles one way and you can run DCC ... throw all the toggles the other way and you can run straight DC.
Because of the fact you don't run all 70 locos at once and you will have favorites you run, and you will be running one or two locos at a time mostly, then you can convert the first dozen of your favorite locos for less than the cost of another loco. Now for those first dozen locos, you can independently tune them to get top-notch performance! How good is that -- your 12 favorite locos running better than ever?
Even at $800 for the whole shebang is only the cost of one nice brass loco -- so rather than add another loco to your fleet, why not upgrade the quality your entire current fleet of 70 locos? Or put another way, for $120 a month, your entire fleet will be converted in 6 month's time.
One other note -- for the locos that fall in category 3 above, I'd recommend you not convert them to DCC but turn them into shelf models or sell them. If you do want to run them on DCC, then upgrade the mechanism. DCC will not make a crappy running model run any better, and things like BEMF may make it run worse -- bucking and jerking something awful as the decoder tries to automatically compensate for a lousey mechanism.
WHERE TO GET GREAT PRICES ON DCC STUFF
So where do I get these great fleet decoder prices? Easy. As I discover things, I try to post the helpful tips here, like where to get great prices on DCC stuff.
If you go to this link you will find a reference to Empire Northern Models, a site run by Tim Smith. Tim will sell you 10 NCE D13SRJ decoders for $119.95, or just under $12 each.
For equipment that runs decent on DC, I prefer the D13SRJ decoder. It's inexpensive and the dithering/torque compensation feature lets you tune the loco to run at an excellent slow speed crawl. So for $12, you can't do much better than the D13SRJ.
Now if you have a loco that's a bit stiff, so that it doesn't have the greatest slow speed performance, but it generally runs decent, the next step up is the TCS T1 decoder.
You can get those from Litchfield Station (also referenced in the link above -- and they offer free priority shipping on orders over $50) for about $16 each. The T1 has back EMF that you can turn on just at the lower speed steps, and BEMF can work wonders on slow speed loco performance of such locos.
NEVER LOOKING BACK ...
Anyone I've spoken with who finally has tried out DCC wonders why they waited so long. Once they see how nice their locos will run once they've been tuned with the performance settings DCC gives you, they never look back.
Would you be willing the pay the cost of another nice brass loco or two in order to greatly enhance the operating satisfaction you get from running your existing loco fleet? If the answer is yes, then DCC is how it's done. Or you can spend the next two years tearing down and individually tuning loco mechanisms ... your choice.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
riverotter1948 wrote: Joe, I would really like to know where you can get "nice fleet decoders ... circa $12 each in quantity". I have ~70 locomotives, so if I'm going to convert from DC to DCC, price is a consideration. Even at $12 apiece, that's $840 just for the freakin' decoders! P.S. Please allow me to take exception to your statement "If you want to get beyond the train set level in the hobby, then DCC's the way to go". That makes it sound like if you're still running antiquated old DC you're not a "real" model railroader. Elitist horse puckey. Just because certain magazines push that agenda doesn't mean it's so. If I was starting all over again, I probably would go DCC, but a lot of folks in this hobby don't have a few thousand extra dollars laying around to convert of their already-working-nicely-thank-you DC systems. #end of rant#
Lots of places .... Here's just one:
http://www.dcctrain.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=189
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
well hi to all
i am back with a vengance to Model railroading after a twenty year absence and while i have a few loco's in dc and a basic test loop, i too am going to DCC asap, while i am into more prototypical type things i have decided on N scale where i can do a exposed min radius of 30 in and have it look right ( chk out the math a min radius in R.L. is about 750-850 feet )
and yes it wont take long to retro fit or upgrade or replace loco's ( just selling off the last ten hobbies' leftovers ) just my two cents. thanks and bon chance
ps joe like your work
73'
mark
Hi - just read your note back to someone about DCC or not and appreciated your response. So, I thought you might be able to make a suggestion about how to get started with my son. He is 6 and very mechanically inclined. So far we have a 4X8 board on saw horses with an oval and a turntable - and a few very fancy steam engines that he has chosen (thanks to some very loving relatives) that he has acquired - in particular a 2-6-6-2 among others - HO. He loves these steam engines more than anything else he has.
I would like to go a little further with this so I am not sure how to proceed. I have been given advice to consider switching to O guage for ease of operation. I think we would like to try to build a second level above the first one - maybe 2 X 8. So, we need to figure out if we should stay with HO or go to O and then where to start.
If you have any thoughts we would be very grateful.
Thanks,
Brad Demsky
maxyboy,
I'm pretty new here, but you stoked my fire w/ the comment about getting into the hobby w/ your son. Any hour spent playing w/ him will NEVER be wasted.
I don't know how much room you have to expand, but to add a second level (in HO) will take a few feet to even manage the climb. I haven't figured it in O gauge, but.... About the best advice I could offer here (aside from spending time w/ the kiddo) would be to make curves as large as possible, especially w/ steam locos. That means more space. And consider the cost if you don't plan on the lottery.
Anyway, don't quit. As for the advice on ease of operation, I'm bettin' on the 6 year old to be able to manage whatever he can get his hands on.
Take care.
jfugate,
Would you consider the Zephyr or NCE PowerCab worth buying? I know I want DCC, but am still building at this point, running some engines to show. (I might be dismayed to find out I like building better than operating.) I just don't want to feel like I wasted the first couple hundred dollars I spent on DCC.
Thanks in advance.
DGreen wrote:jfugate,Would you consider the Zephyr or NCE PowerCab worth buying? I know I want DCC, but am still building at this point, running some engines to show. (I might be dismayed to find out I like building better than operating.) I just don't want to feel like I wasted the first couple hundred dollars I spent on DCC. Thanks in advance.
Excuse me for stepping in while Jfugate is indisposed, but he currently OWNS an NCE DCC system and I know for a fact he is very very happy with it. I own an NCE Powercab system and also recommend it. I bought mine at Tonys Train Exchange online for $139.99 and never looked back at DC.
I would recommend getting a good basic system to start with and expanding. Most children should be able to manipulate and operate an HO scale layout. Sometimes the adults interfere with the fun.
personal note:
My four-year-old and I started putting together a layout about a year ago. When we started, I thought that it was really important to have all the details figured out so that we wouldn't waste any time or money. I have realized over the past year that the important goal in the whole thing is to have fun. We happen to be using HO scale and have a 4'x8' layout with potential for adding more sheets later (if needed). We work slowly and don't rush. We just enjoy the process. Sometimes my son will watch a train video while I do some of the tedious work and sometimes he does the tedious work too. He (and I) sometimes mess things up, but we laugh about it and go on.
Both the Zephyr and the NCE PowerCab will serve you well and neither is a waste of money.
But there are a few differences, and depending on what matters most to you, these differences may help you prefer one of the other.
1. Form factor: The Zephyr uses a stationary power pack form factor, while the NCE PowerCab uses a walkaround handheld form factor. You cannot unplug the PowerCab handheld because it's the command station, but you can get a coiled chord to give you up to 25 feet in any direction from the plug in.
2. Amps capacity: The Zephyr has slightly more amps capacity than the PowerCab (2.5 vs. 1.7).
3. Local modelers: Digitrax's marketing penetration is the greatest of all the systems, and so it's most likely any nearby modelers will be using Digitrax. This means you will most likely get local support, and other modelers can bring their throttles over to run on your layout. But if all your train buddies are using NCE, then likewise, they can bring their throttles to your layout to run trains.
4. Zephyr does zero-stretch loco running, which means you can run one loco on the layout without using a decoder. Zero stretch running results in annoying harmonics from a loco when you use it, and loco performance is only so-so. With fleet decoders down to under $12 in quantity these days, I don't recommend zero-stretch loco running any longer and I don't consider the ability to run locos in this manner to be much more than a gimmick. Just keep a few extra fleet decoders on hand, and run your locos on DCC. You will be much happier with the performance.
5. If you expand your system and layout later, it's most likely you will want to move to walkaround control. When that happens you may find the Zephyr's stationary cab to be an unused waste. With the NCE PowerCab, when you move up to a full NCE Pro command station, the PowerCab becomes a regular throttle you can use with the system just like any other throttle -- so you don't end up with any wasted throttles.
I personally prefer NCE's walkaround form factor, but there are many happy users of the Zephyr system also on this forum.
Hi,
great question. A couple of years ago I asked the same question on a self guided layout tour. The replies were varied, the one gentleman's reply stood out the most. He said that if you have a home layout and are not overly concerned about the sound aspect then why bother going with DCC. When at home how many trains do you have running at once on your layout? Most people will have one or maybe two going and that can usually be done fairly easily with a block system. In a club setting the situation is different when there are multiple operators.
Also it is becoming easier to install decoders in locomotives as time goes on. All of the major quality manufacturers have their engines DCC ready. The last question is what is your budget like? The price of decoders is also going down steadily so if you do decide to go the DC route and convert at a later date it will not be as painful.
Finally there is the question of battery powered locomotives that are radio controlled. The garden people are doing it and I have read that it might be coming to HO. One thing is for certain technology keeps moving forward and keeps things interesting.
Hope this helps
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
My first home layout I started out with two MRC20 power packs with walk around throttles. I had a 12' x 24' modular layout, around the wals of my apartment living/dining room. (I case yiu are wondering I was single at the time.). I had a basic oval with to passing sidings and a small yard. When I am alone I like to orbit a train in one direction and run another in the opposite direction. Just a simple set up like this cost a small fortune in wire and DPDT toggle switches for block control. If I was going to run another train I would have to switch to rotary switches to control each block. In addition, it was difficult to run "lone wolf" as I had to worry about keeping the blocks powered for my orbiting train. I switched to Digitrax DCC (Chief). I found the Digitrax statemt to be true; I can run my trains and not my track. Now that I am under DCC I will not go back.
I would recommend Digitrax as it has worked for me. There are many good DCC systems out there that can be expanded and upgraded. One of my reasons for selecting Digitrax is that several of my modeling friends also have the system and when they run on my layout there is no learning curve for operating the system.
If you decide to go wireless, there are several systems that can be upgraded to wireless at a future date.
Get a good basic DCC system that can be expaned or upgraded as your needs change.
JIM
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
TA462 wrote:.....Joe, in #4 you say you don't like to run loco's without a decoder. I find it beneficial to test run a new loco before I install a decoder that way I can be sure I just bought a good running locomotive. I don't find the over all performance of the locomotive to be so-so on good quality loco's like Kato, Atlas or Proto 2000. Athearn and Athearn Genesis loco's on the other hand didn't perform as good as the others for some reason but thats just my experience. I don't feel having the option of running a loco without a decoder a gimmick at all, I think its a great option to have....
.....Joe, in #4 you say you don't like to run loco's without a decoder. I find it beneficial to test run a new loco before I install a decoder that way I can be sure I just bought a good running locomotive. I don't find the over all performance of the locomotive to be so-so on good quality loco's like Kato, Atlas or Proto 2000. Athearn and Athearn Genesis loco's on the other hand didn't perform as good as the others for some reason but thats just my experience. I don't feel having the option of running a loco without a decoder a gimmick at all, I think its a great option to have....
I totally agree with test running on DC. I also prefer DC for tuning and breaking-in locomotives. DC, with meters installed, allows to me see binds and hitches in mechanisms that might get masked with some of the "features" of a decoder. I have real feel for how well the mechanism itself is working.
But I agree with Joe that zero-stretching is not the best way to run on DC, even for brief testing. Zero-stretching doesn't meet any of the critieria I laid for DC operations. Far better, IMO, is to use a DPDT switch to set a part of the layout aside (or a separate test loop) for operations on DC when needed.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
fwright wrote: TA462 wrote: .....Joe, in #4 you say you don't like to run loco's without a decoder. I find it beneficial to test run a new loco before I install a decoder that way I can be sure I just bought a good running locomotive. I don't find the over all performance of the locomotive to be so-so on good quality loco's like Kato, Atlas or Proto 2000. Athearn and Athearn Genesis loco's on the other hand didn't perform as good as the others for some reason but thats just my experience. I don't feel having the option of running a loco without a decoder a gimmick at all, I think its a great option to have.... I totally agree with test running on DC. I also prefer DC for tuning and breaking-in locomotives. DC, with meters installed, allows to me see binds and hitches in mechanisms that might get masked with some of the "features" of a decoder. I have real feel for how well the mechanism itself is working.But I agree with Joe that zero-stretching is not the best way to run on DC, even for brief testing. Zero-stretching doesn't meet any of the critieria I laid for DC operations. Far better, IMO, is to use a DPDT switch to set a part of the layout aside (or a separate test loop) for operations on DC when needed.my thoughts, your choicesFred W
TA462 wrote: .....Joe, in #4 you say you don't like to run loco's without a decoder. I find it beneficial to test run a new loco before I install a decoder that way I can be sure I just bought a good running locomotive. I don't find the over all performance of the locomotive to be so-so on good quality loco's like Kato, Atlas or Proto 2000. Athearn and Athearn Genesis loco's on the other hand didn't perform as good as the others for some reason but thats just my experience. I don't feel having the option of running a loco without a decoder a gimmick at all, I think its a great option to have....
This the reason I kept one DC pack hooked up to my old block/cab system. I could never trust the Zero-stretching, it is often hard to tell whether noise and running characteristics are caused by the DCC system or the locomotive itself, so I always test with the DC power pack before installing a decoder.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
ArcticCat wrote:Should I buy a DCC loco now, or buy one that is just dcc ready or buy one that is just standard dc...Whay I ask? Im just wondering if you all went out and bought all the bells and whistles or slowly worked your way up.Are there any loco's (newer deisel style) that are not possible to be updated? Thanks in advance,Ken edit: Let me add, I will be buying a DCC controler first, I believe they can be run in analog to run non-dcc equiped engines(right?)
Should I buy a DCC loco now, or buy one that is just dcc ready or buy one that is just standard dc...
Whay I ask? Im just wondering if you all went out and bought all the bells and whistles or slowly worked your way up.
Are there any loco's (newer deisel style) that are not possible to be updated?
Thanks in advance,
Ken
edit: Let me add, I will be buying a DCC controler first, I believe they can be run in analog to run non-dcc equiped engines(right?)
Since I started collecting stuff years ago in the DC age, I have a lot of updating to do.
The DCC equivelent of powering a DC locomotive is equivelent to throwng AC right on the DC loco. Depending on the loco's internals, it may accept using an AC signal, however it powers the motor all the time and alters the AC timing to get the DC power for it to move.
I don't agree with this concept as it keeps power on the motor and the reversing fields negate it from moving, allowing it to heat up.
Its too iffy for me to accept running DC lokies on DCC.
Because the hobby world is leaning DCC go for it. For me its nothing but upgrade upgrade upgrade, I have only 2 lokies with DCC, all others DC, my layout will be planned to accept both.
WJSTIX - as a newbie also starting out as ArticCat is also re-entering the hobby, your one paragraph opened my eyes to wiring which is what intimidates me more than everything else.
"Remember too that wiring is EASIER in DCC, not harder !! You don't have to go thru the hassle of setting up two or more DC controllers with a myriad of toggle switches to control dozens of power blocks so you can run two engines at the same time - the DCC system allows you to hook up two wires to the track and go...yes, if you have a larger layout, you'll want to hook up wires to several places on the layout so power is even over the layout, but it's the same power all over." [quoted from a posting on 2007-12-19 9:02 AM].
So just how much power does one need to run a DCC system? I hear the term "bus" and wire gauging etc and really have no idea other than to read some glossaryies which really do not explain things. HELP?!?!
Can you explain it to me or should this be a whole different threat and toipic?
[Apologies to ArticCat for jumping to an aside on this thread.
RoadCopper wrote: So just how much power does one need to run a DCC system? I hear the term "bus" and wire gauging etc and really have no idea other than to read some glossaryies which really do not explain things. HELP?!?!
Depends on how many trains you want to run at a time, more than how big the layout is.
Roadcopper,
DCC systems are availabe in a wide range of power from about 1.5 amps up to 5 amps or more. The starter systems are on the low end of the range, but even 1.5 amps will easily run 2 or 3 engines. Let's suppose you are using a low power system. If there is a short somewhere on the layout, the system may output it's max power through the wiring, rail joiners, etc. between the power supply and the short. If it's a 1.5 amp system, you need wire to handle that much. On the other hand, if you have a powerful system, say 5 amps, now a near short will draw a lot more current, and possibly heat up a rail joiner with a poor connection or a small gauge wire between the power supply and the short. That's why a power bus of large gauge wire is recommended, and why wiring standards such as feeders to every unsoldered piece of track is recommended. For a starter system, hook up a pair of wires and go :-). Or better yet, hook up a "few" pairs of wires.
Jim
RoadCopper, think of a bus as if it were the superior and inferior vena cava, the two very large major arteries that ascend and descend from the heart. The heart is the keeper (the DCC brains in some systems), but the keeper/heart can't do much good without a superior conduit system to distribute its power. So the bus on a layout is nothing more than heavy gauge wire that offers very little resistance to the current and signal resident in the current. As we get further from the heart, the tubes/wires/blood vessels are narrower, and the same can be said of the feeders going up to the tracks off the bus. Their short runs mean that they don't impede the flow of blood/power/signal, so they can be narrrower.
And that, for the most part*, is as complex as it needs to be. The base station, a heavy wire going around the layout, below the operating surface and out of sight. At certain points where they will provide power to the rails above them, several thin feeders connect the bus to the rails. That's all you need. No block wiring, not toggles, not detectors, etc. Plug and play.
No matter what kind of layout, DC or DCC, you can still have power reversing sections if you have a loop to turn the train around, or a turning wye. In that case, you will need a mechanism to keep the polarities from interfering as the engine crosses back over the turnout to rejoin the track that admitted it to the loop.
Well explained!
So where do the feeder wires run off the "bus"?
What type of "arterial" branches do I need to split the power off the main power wire?
As I have said the electrical is what escapes me.
The feeders are smaller wire for very short distances between bus and railroad track.
Sort of like Capilaries. (Spelling?)
If I have a big 12 gauge Wire that is my artery. I might run this artery under my mainline track. Every 6 feet or so.. perhaps a smaller set of wires connect rails to the bus.. they wont be more than a foot long if that.
the feeders should be soldered into breaks in the insulation of the bus very close to where you feel the rail above has gone too long without a feeder. Generally, a feeder should supply about 6 contiguous feet of rail. I have gone much more, but there is a sort of general consensus here that 6' is about ideal. Some will argue that every 3' section of flex track needs a feeder for superior reliability...and they are technically right...but who wants to do all that work?
The rail between cuts or gaps needs feeding, so a feeder must go to that section. A feeder may be needed on diverging routes after the frog...depending on the function of the turnout. Some three-way turnouts must be gapped on the routes after the frogs, so what follows in the way of rails may need feeders if they end in a gap. And do on. Every time you lay a piece of rail, think about how it will receive power...from which direction...which feeder? If you encounter a necessary gap, or a non-power routing turntou, count on drilling a couple of holes and running feeders up to that length of rail.
Will that suffice, or would you like more nitty gritty?
Nitty Gritty please.
I have power routing Kato switches and am working on defeating the power routing and convert them to all live by insulating and creating a total of three feeders per switch areas and using a power distribution block to make it all happen. I dont have the solution yet but am exploring the possibilities on the workbench.
Then again I could simply buy all live number 6's and save myself the pain =) But I dont think Im going to yet have the extra 3 inches per switch with my space so I need to do what I have to do.
I will say that these switches will have thier own controllers by groups of 4 with it's own power bus and supply independant but controlled via the Loconet.
The journey to the asylum house will begin in ernest when the signalling gets to play.
There! Nitty Gritty enough yah?
Falls Valley RR wrote:Nitty Gritty please. I have power routing Kato switches and am working on defeating the power routing and convert them to all live by insulating and creating a total of three feeders per switch areas and using a power distribution block to make it all happen. I dont have the solution yet but am exploring the possibilities on the workbench.Then again I could simply buy all live number 6's and save myself the pain =) But I dont think Im going to yet have the extra 3 inches per switch with my space so I need to do what I have to do....
Falls Valley RR wrote: Nitty Gritty please. I have power routing Kato switches and am working on defeating the power routing and convert them to all live by insulating and creating a total of three feeders per switch areas and using a power distribution block to make it all happen. I dont have the solution yet but am exploring the possibilities on the workbench.Then again I could simply buy all live number 6's and save myself the pain =) But I dont think Im going to yet have the extra 3 inches per switch with my space so I need to do what I have to do.I will say that these switches will have thier own controllers by groups of 4 with it's own power bus and supply independant but controlled via the Loconet.The journey to the asylum house will begin in ernest when the signalling gets to play.There! Nitty Gritty enough yah?
This would only be a guess, since I don't "do" N-scale and I don't know these turnouts, but my suspicion is that the only way to achieve your stated aims is by physically cutting gaps aroudn the frog on your turnouts. If it were me, I would avoid a Dremel cut-off tool in your smaller scale because you won't get clean enough gaps over which the tinier wheels in that scale would have to trundle. In your case, I would use a jeweler's saw. You'd have to drill a tiny hole near the rails to be cut through which you'd have to thread the hair-like filamental saw blade, but then the rest should just be as simple as sawing gently through the remaining roadbed and the rail until you achieved separation.
So, you'd have to cut the two frog point rails, and both closure rails, somewhere near the frog area, and not so close that any one metal wheel could make contact with both rails where they can bridge power. This is a problem on the Peco and W/S curved turnouts, but I don't know anything about the Kato ones.
Then, you would use metal joiners at all six rail ends of the turnout, and simply feed all approaches to the frog via feeders and joiners to the dead frog. If the dead frog is now a problem for some engines, you will have to use a switching mechanism to feed the dead frog to make it live, but live with power orientation for the approach and route you intend to use. That lies outside of my expertise...as if I have any at all in the hobby.