No, I don't agree. I've noticed over the years that ANY company when they sell their items direct, nearly always sell them at MSRP. That goes for Walthers (unless they are having a sale) and most other companies. So companies selling items themselves as a rule ask MSRP and its never a good idea to buy direct because of that.
riogrande5761 wrote:... I've noticed over the years that ANY company when they sell their items direct, nearly always sell them at MSRP. That goes for Walthers (unless they are having a sale) and most other companies. So companies selling items themselves as a rule ask MSRP and its never a good idea to buy direct because of that.
... I've noticed over the years that ANY company when they sell their items direct, nearly always sell them at MSRP. That goes for Walthers (unless they are having a sale) and most other companies. So companies selling items themselves as a rule ask MSRP and its never a good idea to buy direct because of that.
True, but you should check their sites for sales. When/if they have them, the prices can be very good - I've seen 50% off. Of course it's usually discontinued items that didn't sell well and/or they are trying to reduce inventory - but I've gotten some good deals.
Enjoy
Paul
Falls Valley RR wrote: It is my understanding that Horizon bought Athearn lock stock and barrel. That also includes Roundhouse. Because Horizion competes with Walthers for YOUR train money the Walthers no longer carry Athearn.
It is my understanding that Horizon bought Athearn lock stock and barrel. That also includes Roundhouse. Because Horizion competes with Walthers for YOUR train money the Walthers no longer carry Athearn.
Yes Horizon bought Athearn, but since Horizon is a distributer / wholesaler too it decided to only offer Athearn products thru Horizon. At least going by what Walthers said publicly, they would have continued to carry Athearn but Horizon withdrew it from the Walthers catalogue.
Falls Valley RR wrote: Life Like Heritage and Proto (One and same?) was bought by Walthers.
Proto 2000 and Proto 1000 were lines created by Life-Like, to separate their newer scale stuff from their traditional toy-train line. Proto was never a separate company...kinda like Athearn Genesis is a line of products within the Athearn family.
Falls Valley RR wrote: Riverossi, AHM and IHC will always be one and the same, the difference is the flanges for me. Pizza Cutter or non-pizza cutter.
This has been brought up several times in other posts, but Rivarossi (at least the passenger car line) isn't the same as the current IHC line, although AHM and Rivarossi were the same or made by the same manufacturer overseas or whatever. The current IHC line is not as well detailed as the Rivarossi line is/was - actually I'd like to see whoever owns Rivarossi this week (Hornby?) re-do all the old Rivarossi passenger cars.
Fred W.,
What an excellent recap!
I certainly agree with everything, especially about the continuance of the Stewart quality.
Regarding Ulrich & Silver Streak, I believe they were owned by Walthers and Silver Streak is history. Ulrich MAY still be alive, but I believe they are primarily truck (highway type) producers.
Ulrich & SS made some excellent craftsman kits, especially for their time in the '50s - '70s. There are still some available on Ebay, and I highly recommend them.
Thanks,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Falls Valley RR wrote:MSRP may be a obselete breed here and is such a dinosaur as not to know it's pending demise. For example, I found a BLI locomotive that was rare during my hunt at a Ohio Store for MSRP at 360 dollars plus shipping... way too much. I ended up buying it direct from BLI outlet for about 225 total. I bet the Ohio engine is STILL on the shelf today.
MSRP may be a obselete breed here and is such a dinosaur as not to know it's pending demise. For example, I found a BLI locomotive that was rare during my hunt at a Ohio Store for MSRP at 360 dollars plus shipping... way too much. I ended up buying it direct from BLI outlet for about 225 total. I bet the Ohio engine is STILL on the shelf today.
Considering he has more than $225 in it, I would imagine he does.
mistty wrote: http://rrtrains.com/ this copany gives discounts but if you pay the 50.00 yearly membership fee you get a 30% or more dicount on all items. DISCLAIMER am not in any way having anything to do with rr trains other then being a satisfied customer. athearn makes a great deal of great looking engines but to me the handrails are to fragile.had over fifty athearn rtr and genesis units at 1 time but dumped them do to the fact that most of them had broken handrais from me simply brushing them with my fingers.
Im offended by the fact that there is a fee to get a discount. I get discounts without ever a fee.
Just for Falls Valley, the Athearn MDC breakfasts are no myth. I sat at several of them when working for an HO manufacturer. In fact, when MDC made the switch from diecast to plastic, they sold Athearn bodies on MDC underframes until they got their own line back up in plastic. It is always dangerous to think something is a myth unless you have personal knowledge.
LOL...A very long discussion and NOT ONE DOLLAR AND CENTS EXAMPLE OF COMPETITIVE PRICING.
Why don't you give us an example of this competitiveness that you speak of?
I am looking to buy a Lionel Polar Express Disappearing Hobo Car for the Polar Express O gauge set.
Show us using links to sellers where this competitiveness is.
I and my wallet will be waiting.
Thanks
TMT
So basically you want someone else to do your homework for you, right?
Is this good enough for you? http://www.etrainshop.com/tek9.asp?pg=products&specific=jmqqrrepenq
http://www.mrtoys.com/lionel-christmas-rolling-stock/Lionel-Polar-Express-Disappearing-Hobo-Car-6-35130.htm
http://www.whistle-stop.com/2007/10/polar-express-disappearing-hobo-car.html
I realize it's only anecdotal evidence. Sorry 'bout that. It's all I had time for.
Andre
Falls Valley RR wrote: mistty wrote: http://rrtrains.com/ this copany gives discounts but if you pay the 50.00 yearly membership fee you get a 30% or more dicount on all items. DISCLAIMER am not in any way having anything to do with rr trains other then being a satisfied customer. athearn makes a great deal of great looking engines but to me the handrails are to fragile.had over fifty athearn rtr and genesis units at 1 time but dumped them do to the fact that most of them had broken handrais from me simply brushing them with my fingers. Im offended by the fact that there is a fee to get a discount. I get discounts without ever a fee.
Absolutely and some times at rock bottom discount prices.
Why pay $50.00 a year for a discount when there's other discount shops on line??
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
jsoderq wrote: Just for Falls Valley, the Athearn MDC breakfasts are no myth. I sat at several of them when working for an HO manufacturer. In fact, when MDC made the switch from diecast to plastic, they sold Athearn bodies on MDC underframes until they got their own line back up in plastic. It is always dangerous to think something is a myth unless you have personal knowledge.
Even today the model manufacturers are still friends..There is usually a big whoop de do banquet at the hobby trade show that is/was held once a year in Chicago..
BRAKIE wrote: jsoderq wrote: Just for Falls Valley, the Athearn MDC breakfasts are no myth. I sat at several of them when working for an HO manufacturer. In fact, when MDC made the switch from diecast to plastic, they sold Athearn bodies on MDC underframes until they got their own line back up in plastic. It is always dangerous to think something is a myth unless you have personal knowledge. Even today the model manufacturers are still friends..There is usually a big whoop de do banquet at the hobby trade show that is/was held once a year in Chicago..
Heh.
Maybe they can fight over pricing over lunch and agree by dinner =)
I used the word Myth because it is a tidbit that I wasnt sure of sooo.. I am careful that way. In another pursuit related to history Ive been shown things I thought I knew facts were legends or myths. =)
Cheers.
BRAKIE wrote: Falls Valley RR wrote: mistty wrote: http://rrtrains.com/ this copany gives discounts but if you pay the 50.00 yearly membership fee you get a 30% or more dicount on all items. DISCLAIMER am not in any way having anything to do with rr trains other then being a satisfied customer. athearn makes a great deal of great looking engines but to me the handrails are to fragile.had over fifty athearn rtr and genesis units at 1 time but dumped them do to the fact that most of them had broken handrais from me simply brushing them with my fingers. Im offended by the fact that there is a fee to get a discount. I get discounts without ever a fee. Absolutely and some times at rock bottom discount prices.Why pay $50.00 a year for a discount when there's other discount shops on line??
Thinking back a bit about the 'lot' of modern-era model mfrs which seem to come out in the late '80s/early '90s (Railpower has been mentioned as being purchased by Athearn/Horizon), of which there were several (but of course I can think of only McKean, Front Range, and Eel River [ who's 60ft boxcar dies are being re-issued by someone else nowadays] ) - what are the stories behind them?
And as regards MDC/Athearn, I haven't looked lately but can it be assumed that if Roundhouse < WWII & Athearn later, that Athearn got the modern-era MDC kits such as the 60' Flat cars, Bulkhead Flats, Generic Frameless Tank car & the assorted modern boxcars?
ArcticCat wrote: As I sit here thumbing through my 08 Walther catalog, searching ebay and reading the forums here on trains.com. I came to the conclusion, I need to learn some vendor history.Is Athern still making anything? Or did they get bought up by someone? I believe Roundhouse has been long gone, and by the look of Atherns Box, they aquired Roundhouse, or allways owned them, or the same company owned both...Anyways, could you guys give me a breif run down on whos who? Ken, thanks for starting an excellent discussion on an interesting subject.TMT It would also help me figure out whats a good price on ebay, versus the walther catalog. I want to compare apples to apple, not oranges.Thanks as allways,Ken
As I sit here thumbing through my 08 Walther catalog, searching ebay and reading the forums here on trains.com. I came to the conclusion, I need to learn some vendor history.
Is Athern still making anything? Or did they get bought up by someone? I believe Roundhouse has been long gone, and by the look of Atherns Box, they aquired Roundhouse, or allways owned them, or the same company owned both...
Anyways, could you guys give me a breif run down on whos who?
Ken, thanks for starting an excellent discussion on an interesting subject.
It would also help me figure out whats a good price on ebay, versus the walther catalog. I want to compare apples to apple, not oranges.
Thanks as allways,
Ken
CNJ831 wrote:Of particular concern is that, outside of Branchline (and the electronics outfits), it's difficult to point to any new major players from the hobby's past ten years, who were not already a part of the industry previously in some fashion.CNJ831
Of particular concern is that, outside of Branchline (and the electronics outfits), it's difficult to point to any new major players from the hobby's past ten years, who were not already a part of the industry previously in some fashion.
CNJ831
Broadway Limited Imports, founded 2001.
Maybe Intermountain Railway Co.? They seem fairly new.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
You're not a member of COSTCO or Sam's Club, are you?
andrechapelon wrote: Falls Valley RR wrote: mistty wrote: http://rrtrains.com/ this copany gives discounts but if you pay the 50.00 yearly membership fee you get a 30% or more dicount on all items. DISCLAIMER am not in any way having anything to do with rr trains other then being a satisfied customer. athearn makes a great deal of great looking engines but to me the handrails are to fragile.had over fifty athearn rtr and genesis units at 1 time but dumped them do to the fact that most of them had broken handrais from me simply brushing them with my fingers. Im offended by the fact that there is a fee to get a discount. I get discounts without ever a fee.You're not a member of COSTCO or Sam's Club, are you?Andre
Nope.
I dont see any special pricing benefits to joining clubs.
Once a long time ago I was in a bar and ordered a spirit. They handed me a questionaire saying it is a private club and I needed to provide all my information. And would be charged a annual fee.
I walked out leaving the questionare on the bar blank. Every Tavern Ive known about never ever shook the customer down for that. It kind of defined my outlook towards such requirements.
I dont mind sharing information in certain ways like Car Insurance but to try and get preferental pricing? NAh. They can build all the Coscos they want to, but wont find me inside.
I specifically stated that in the Hobby Shop for train stuff, I get a small discount as everyone else without having need to sign up for anything. Everything else is fair game in retail stores. They may or may not get it. Example Best Buy. Sometimes they have the computer part at a good price against online vendors.
It is my understanding that you are NOT required to pay a fee to get service or goods. Because of this I do business away from clubs, private clubs or other similar ventures.
CNJ831 wrote: Too_Many_Tools wrote: hobo9941 wrote:I just went to the Horizon Hobbies website. No deals there. Looks like everything is full list price.That is another sign of an industry in consolidation....with less competition there is no reason to cut prices.The more I look, the less I like what I am seeing in this hobby.If one looks into the situation in detail, the degree of consolidation and the shrinking number of those recognized as major participants in the market place has become quite dramatic recently, although this is certainly not a trend limited to just the past few years. Rather, it has been going on for quite some time. Going back decades, Walthers absorbed many of the earlier companies who produced HO rolling stock, and so did Like Like, Bowser, et al. (as noted previously by others).One might guess that perhaps a decade from now only Walthers, Horizon (will they really continue in model railroading?), Bachmann, probably Atlas and perhaps Bowser, will be the only major players left, having bought up all the remaining worthwhile companies or seen them withdrawn. Outside of these, the only independents will probably be some of the smaller, more-or-less, cottage industries producing craftsman kits. Of particular concern is that, outside of Branchline (and the electronics outfits), it's difficult to point to any new major players from the hobby's past ten years, who were not already a part of the industry previously in some fashion.CNJ831
Too_Many_Tools wrote: hobo9941 wrote:I just went to the Horizon Hobbies website. No deals there. Looks like everything is full list price.That is another sign of an industry in consolidation....with less competition there is no reason to cut prices.The more I look, the less I like what I am seeing in this hobby.
hobo9941 wrote:I just went to the Horizon Hobbies website. No deals there. Looks like everything is full list price.
That is another sign of an industry in consolidation....with less competition there is no reason to cut prices.
The more I look, the less I like what I am seeing in this hobby.
If one looks into the situation in detail, the degree of consolidation and the shrinking number of those recognized as major participants in the market place has become quite dramatic recently, although this is certainly not a trend limited to just the past few years. Rather, it has been going on for quite some time. Going back decades, Walthers absorbed many of the earlier companies who produced HO rolling stock, and so did Like Like, Bowser, et al. (as noted previously by others).
One might guess that perhaps a decade from now only Walthers, Horizon (will they really continue in model railroading?), Bachmann, probably Atlas and perhaps Bowser, will be the only major players left, having bought up all the remaining worthwhile companies or seen them withdrawn. Outside of these, the only independents will probably be some of the smaller, more-or-less, cottage industries producing craftsman kits. Of particular concern is that, outside of Branchline (and the electronics outfits), it's difficult to point to any new major players from the hobby's past ten years, who were not already a part of the industry previously in some fashion.
There he goes again with the negative waves (to paraphase Donald Sutherland in "Kelly's Heroes") http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065938/ .
Little lesson in history. Here's a list of defunct US car makers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_United_States_automobile_manufacturers There are no new builders of automobiles in the US. US plants of foreign manufacturers don't count.
Dead airplane manufacturers (from memory): Curtiss-Wright, Convair, Douglas, North American, Martin, AviaBellanca, Ercoupe, Aeronca, Taylorcraft, Ryan Aeronautical (Ryan build the Spirit of St. Louis). There is only 1 manufacturer of large commercial aircraft in the US and that is Boeing. At one time, Douglas, Lockheed, and Convair build commercial jets. There are no new commercial airplane builders in the US.
Dead locomotive companies: ALCO (and all its 7 component companies, note: ALCO also made automobiles), Baldwin, Lima, Willamette, Westinghouse, Ingalls Shipbuilding, Amoskeag, Climax, Heisler, Whitcomb,Vulcan, Hinkley, Tredegar Iron Works, Davenport, Plymouth .
So that must mean the automobile, aircraft and railroad industries are dying.
Andre - old enough to remember Crosley, Nash, Henry J, Packard, Hudson, Studebaker, AMC (remember the Gremlin and the Pacer?) and the DeLorean.
Shall we now go through and list all the defunct daily newspapers, magazines, deparment stores (anyone remember White Front or Montgomery Ward?), airlines, railroads, etc?
Falls Valley RR wrote: andrechapelon wrote: Falls Valley RR wrote: mistty wrote: http://rrtrains.com/ this copany gives discounts but if you pay the 50.00 yearly membership fee you get a 30% or more dicount on all items. DISCLAIMER am not in any way having anything to do with rr trains other then being a satisfied customer. athearn makes a great deal of great looking engines but to me the handrails are to fragile.had over fifty athearn rtr and genesis units at 1 time but dumped them do to the fact that most of them had broken handrais from me simply brushing them with my fingers. Im offended by the fact that there is a fee to get a discount. I get discounts without ever a fee.You're not a member of COSTCO or Sam's Club, are you?AndreNope.I dont see any special pricing benefits to joining clubs.Once a long time ago I was in a bar and ordered a spirit. They handed me a questionaire saying it is a private club and I needed to provide all my information. And would be charged a annual fee.I walked out leaving the questionare on the bar blank. Every Tavern Ive known about never ever shook the customer down for that. It kind of defined my outlook towards such requirements.I dont mind sharing information in certain ways like Car Insurance but to try and get preferental pricing? NAh. They can build all the Coscos they want to, but wont find me inside.I specifically stated that in the Hobby Shop for train stuff, I get a small discount as everyone else without having need to sign up for anything. Everything else is fair game in retail stores. They may or may not get it. Example Best Buy. Sometimes they have the computer part at a good price against online vendors.It is my understanding that you are NOT required to pay a fee to get service or goods. Because of this I do business away from clubs, private clubs or other similar ventures.
Dave Vollmer wrote: CNJ831 wrote:Of particular concern is that, outside of Branchline (and the electronics outfits), it's difficult to point to any new major players from the hobby's past ten years, who were not already a part of the industry previously in some fashion.CNJ831 Broadway Limited Imports, founded 2001.Maybe Intermountain Railway Co.? They seem fairly new.
In fact, Dave, BLI is simply a spin-off from a pre-existing brass loco manufacturer, not a company new to model railroading.
Intermountain's first appearance, I believe, goes back at least 10 years.
that good and while your paying whatever i will be buying the same items and having surf and turf and having change left over.
Think so? The 2% rebate on purchases for COSTCO Executive Club members actually covers the cost of the membership for us. Then there's the money we save over the standard retail store.
Incidentally, Sam's Club (membership required) is quite a bit cheaper than Wal-Mart even though both are part of the same company. The price differential far and away more than makes up for the membership cost.
Enjoy your surf and turf.
andrechapelon wrote: There he goes again with the negative waves (to paraphase Donald Sutherland in "Kelly's Heroes") http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065938/ .Little lesson in history. Here's a list of defunct US car makers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_United_States_automobile_manufacturers There are no new builders of automobiles in the US. US plants of foreign manufacturers don't count.Dead airplane manufacturers (from memory): Curtiss-Wright, Convair, Douglas, North American, Martin, AviaBellanca, Ercoupe, Aeronca, Taylorcraft, Ryan Aeronautical (Ryan build the Spirit of St. Louis). There is only 1 manufacturer of large commercial aircraft in the US and that is Boeing. At one time, Douglas, Lockheed, and Convair build commercial jets. There are no new commercial airplane builders in the US.Dead locomotive companies: ALCO (and all its 7 component companies, note: ALCO also made automobiles), Baldwin, Lima, Willamette, Westinghouse, Ingalls Shipbuilding, Amoskeag, Climax, Heisler, Whitcomb,Vulcan, Hinkley, Tredegar Iron Works, Davenport, Plymouth .
Instead of endlessly posting pointless, unrelated fluff, Andre, how about for a change try posting some solid, contrary, evidence that addresses what I've posted. Folks here love to make snide remarks re posts they disagree with but consistantly lack the ability to show any convincing, opposing evidence.
What's your point? Saturn is simply a new name from a pre-existing car company.
As is Scion.
Does this somehow indicate the car biz is dying?
I mean, name a new company (independent startup) that makes cars.
andrechapelon wrote: In fact, Dave, BLI is simply a spin-off from a pre-existing brass loco manufacturer, not a company new to model railroading. Intermountain's first appearance, I believe, goes back at least 10 years.What's your point? Saturn is simply a new name from a pre-existing car company.As is Scion.Does this somehow indicate the car biz is dying?I mean, name a new company (independent startup) that makes cars.
Once again, just more smoke and fluff. There are numerous new, custom vehicle, manufacturers, particularly on the west coast. While they will certainly never challenge the Big Three for the market (nor is it their aim), these companies recognize that their's is a growing market. You certainly don't see any major investments in the model train market from the outside these days, except from the WGH sponsors and they are doing it because they know their market is in trouble.
You're the one making positive assertions that the hobby is dying. It's up to you to make the case that this is true rather than up to me to prove a negative (an impossible task). IIRC, I've never made the positive assertion that the hobby is thriving and growing, only that I doubt the veracity for claims of its demise. I have also pointed out on numerous occasions a number of contra-indicators for prophecies of doom (i.e. more items available now than ever before, more scale/gauge combinations than ever before, even HOn3 is now getting R-T-R items). I am even sometimes surprised when I come across some mom and pop sized outfit that makes things that I never thought ever would be made.
You seem to insinuate that consolidation in the hobby is an indicator of weakness even though you don't state that outright. I was merely pointing out that the hobby is not the only place where consolidation has taken place, nor is consolidation an indicator of anything other than that some companies are better at what they do than others. Those that can't either go belly-up and/or get bought out by people who actually know what they are doing and can see the direction of their industry.
As for the snide remarks, if, in fact, that is what I'm doing, I only make them because actual evidence has no effect on those who are convinced despite all evidence to the contrary that it will soon be time to toast the dear departed, or that they are getting ripped off or that the hobby had its "Golden Age" back when most model steam locomotives were lumps of cast metal vaguely resembling a steam locomotive of indeterminate prototype.
mistty wrote: that good and while your paying whatever i will be buying the same items and having surf and turf and having change left over.
Sir, we hit walmart once a month with a 200 dollar limit in our budget. Most the time we dont exceed half that. The unspent money each month goes into savings against the next months wally run.
While I appreciate your tidbit about small pleasures with the extra money, I choose to keep adding to savings against a rainy day!
[channeling the late Clara Peller] Where's the beef? [/channeling the late Clara Peller]
The Big 3? Man, you are stuck in the 50's!!!!!!!! I haven't heard that term since before the Kennedy administration.
Boutique auto companies don't exactly indicate major independent investments in autos, now do they? DeLorean was a major independent investment, but that was over a quarter century ago. I don't see any large scale independent investment in commercial aircraft today, either, at least not in this country. Brazil's Embraer, however, seems to be making some inroads into the regional jet market competing with Bombardier's Canadair.
As for hobby investment, there are some fairly sizeable players now. Why should investment have to come from outside the hobby? And why is this proof that there's trouble? I mean, I'm in the hobby. Would an investment of a megabuck by me be considered an outside investment or just more proof that the hobby's dying?
And your proof that WGH sponsors know they're in trouble? You made the assertion. Now provide the proof.
I think I'm going back to the toast thread. There's a much higher ratio of signal to noise there.