Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
CNJ831 wrote:No...there most certainly was a golden age in model railroading and it surely isn't now. In the mid 1950's model trains was ranked as the second most popular and practiced hobby in America, only edged out by philately! Is there anyone here so naive as to think our hobby even ranks in the top 100 today?
No...there most certainly was a golden age in model railroading and it surely isn't now. In the mid 1950's model trains was ranked as the second most popular and practiced hobby in America, only edged out by philately! Is there anyone here so naive as to think our hobby even ranks in the top 100 today?
Likewise, from the mid 1940's through the 1950's, during which we saw the introduction of good looking shake-the-box plastic rolling stock and diecast RTR locomotives that sold for less than half of what loco kits were going for before the war, the HO hobby grew in size by nearly ten-fold.
Since most scale hobbyists were craftsmen back then, at least to some degree, one saw the magazines continuously presenting inexpensive projects applicable to most every layout.
Back then the hobby was also about the enjoyment of really building things, things that developed your modeling talents...not about buying and collecting, often to no point, as has become so much a part of the hobby today.
The biggest failing in the threads one sees here concerning the hobby's history is that so very few have any real idea of what actually went on in the hobby more than a few years ago. As a result, I'm afraid one usually sees simply a series of baseless speculations and opinions unrelated to the actual facts.
Alright so I've got to admit, I have a guilty secret in the hobby: I like the cruddy toy-trains.
Yes, on my layout I've got my Katos and Atlas that run like swiss watches, but I'll still pick up an old Tyco or AHM at yard sales. Usually I play around with them for a while, then use them for paint testing or parts, but there are some that I like enough to keep on the shelves in my office, just because I can.
It's kind of the so-ugly-it's-cute thing in my mind. I'm keeping an eye out for the Tyco Alco Super 630, the Sharknose and other odd ones. My first train set was a Tyco with an absolutely horrific Alco Century 430 in Santa Fe. Thankfully my grandfather bought me an Athearn F7A as soon as he found out what I was running. Amazingly, the old Tyco power pack still works and I use it on my circle around the Christmas tree every year.
Personally I think the worst thing about the cheap train sets is the fact that they are marketed as though they are realistic and true model railroads. Corporations that sell both cheap products and higher-end models should illustrate the difference.
Cheers!
~METRO
NeO6874 wrote: Autobus Prime wrote:The kids are running more steamers than the PRR had.Can you blame them (us)? Steam is definately better than diesel! Especially to a kid -- from a kid's PoV, Diesel = big boring box on wheels; whereas steam locos have all those moving bits that you don't exactly know what they do, but they're really (and I mean REALLY) cool to watch. I envy those of you lucky enough to have seen a big, breathing, living steam loco going about it's daily work. The best I can accomplish is old 50's and 60's era video (either put out by the RR's themselves, or shot by railfans) and the amusement park or museum RR's that use steam locos.
Autobus Prime wrote:The kids are running more steamers than the PRR had.
The kids are running more steamers than the PRR had.
Can you blame them (us)? Steam is definately better than diesel! Especially to a kid -- from a kid's PoV, Diesel = big boring box on wheels; whereas steam locos have all those moving bits that you don't exactly know what they do, but they're really (and I mean REALLY) cool to watch.
I envy those of you lucky enough to have seen a big, breathing, living steam loco going about it's daily work. The best I can accomplish is old 50's and 60's era video (either put out by the RR's themselves, or shot by railfans) and the amusement park or museum RR's that use steam locos.
I second that! I've always liked steam even though I've never seen a steamer in revenue service. To me, diesels are boring big boxes on wheels, although the prototypes in service are more efficient.
Tilden wrote:I agree with the cheap theory, that's why I'm not in N scale. In 1973 I purchased a Bachmann Postage Stamp train set. I could barely get it to run and returned it. Had that first experience been positive, or at least better, I would be modeling N scale today.Tilden
I agree with the cheap theory, that's why I'm not in N scale. In 1973 I purchased a Bachmann Postage Stamp train set. I could barely get it to run and returned it. Had that first experience been positive, or at least better, I would be modeling N scale today.
Tilden
Have you tried N scale lately? I agree that much of what was available back in the dark ages was worse than the worst. However, N scale now offers a wide variety of very reliable and smooth running engines, exquisitely detailed rolling stock, and a plethora of support supplies. The bulk of it is competitively priced compared to HO.
In this case, the sins of the old stuff shouldn't be visited on the new.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Model railroading seems to be a rather active corpse. People like trains. What can I say? I can't explain it, either. Look at Thomas, look at Geotrax, look at Harry Potter. The kids are running more steamers than the PRR had.
That's a fact. In addition to my "real" trains, my 2 car garage size layout also has Thomas the Tank Engine and Hogwart's Express sitting in the yard. After all, the grandchildren like the trains, too.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
For me Tyco was a lesson. The difference between cheap and quality.
I recall a commercial for thier Chattanooga Choo Choo. All black background with just the engine racing down the track. Boy all the kids just had to have one.
The actual product. Well... it was a incredible example of marketing for it's own sake; a means to feed a company with cash until they can crank out a different box-o-crap.
I dont have anything left bad to say about it except that money was wasted on this cheap trainset that could have gone into a nice Athearn Bluebox that had two flywheels, can motor of sorts and all wheel pickup.
They say the hobby has been dying for a long long time. I dont see it. I see it pink, full of life and infused with vigor and flood of wonderful new widgets every month. Indeed I think we are in the best of times right now. Open a catalog and type a few numbers into a internet keyboard and have it shipped to you with a very good price.
In the old days we had to take a bus to the store door, slog through a warehouse to dig up a box of trains, fight crowds, walk up hill both ways in a howling storm and learn quickly new ways of fixing things that dont work out of the box with these cheap toys.
ESPECIALLY cheap trainsets deliberately designed around a short lifespan.
Nowadays I walk past nicer trainsets. But feel a cold wind and pull my jacket closer.
Now Ive seen or is seeing demise of companies that are ahem.. struggling to get products delivered. Ive seen the courts groan with burden of lawsuits that seemed to threaten the hobby with a crushing death blow. Ive seen once great products get reissued cheaply without the necessary electronics generating pain, pleas and supplications for help.
But a dead hobby? Nah! It's only dead when you cart the whole mess to a roll off/on dumpster and have it shipped to the landfill and take up another hobby.
secondhandmodeler wrote:Were the fifties the best time for modeling, or buying toy trains?
Both.
CNJ831
andrechapelon wrote: secondhandmodeler wrote:When was this 'hay-day' of model railroading everyone refers to? As far as I can tell, people have been saying it's declining since it started.I think you've pretty well hit the nail on the head. Everything was always better during some golden age (always undefined as to actual time frame) in the past.But then, I'm a contrarian. I personally believe that the golden age is right now. OTOH, you gotta take what I say with a grain of salt. I invested in Apple Computer when everyone else was at the point of writing it off.
secondhandmodeler wrote:When was this 'hay-day' of model railroading everyone refers to? As far as I can tell, people have been saying it's declining since it started.
I think you've pretty well hit the nail on the head. Everything was always better during some golden age (always undefined as to actual time frame) in the past.
But then, I'm a contrarian. I personally believe that the golden age is right now. OTOH, you gotta take what I say with a grain of salt. I invested in Apple Computer when everyone else was at the point of writing it off.
Between 1948 and 1955, toy train sales reached mindboggling heights, with major commercial Lionel and Flyer outlets selling out their stock completely often weeks prior to Christmas. America was obsessed with trains, large and small, and Christmas just wasn't Christmas unless you had toy trains under the tree back then. That all ended by the 60's.
Likewise, from the mid 1940's through the 1950's, during which we saw the introduction of good looking shake-the-box plastic rolling stock and diecast RTR locomotives that sold for less than half of what loco kits were going for before the war, the HO hobby grew in size by nearly ten-fold. Since most scale hobbyists were craftsmen back then, at least to some degree, one saw the magazines continuously presenting inexpensive projects applicable to most every layout. Back then the hobby was also about the enjoyment of really building things, things that developed your modeling talents...not about buying and collecting, often to no point, as has become so much a part of the hobby today.
"Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated!"
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Choose a decade..You will find a "hay day".Every decade had at least one.
No,I never heard of such till Linn Westcott mention it during the height of the slot car craze of the 60s.
Tilden wrote: I agree with the cheap theory, that's why I'm not in N scale. In 1973 I purchased a Bachmann Postage Stamp train set. I could barely get it to run and returned it. Had that first experience been positive, or at least better, I would be modeling N scale today.Tilden
Bachmann did not market Postage Stamp Trains. Aurora did. They were made by Minitrix and they were definitely not junk. My F9 loco that I got in 1970 still runs.
David
andrechapelon wrote:I invested in Apple Computer when everyone else was at the point of writing it off. Andre
Andre
Isn't that still where we are with Apple today!
Seems like that is where we are with the hobby too...every other day there is a new thread...the dimise...the cost...the quality...it's a wonder anybody just runs trains anymore.
I have no doubt that cheap train sets did their share of harm, but the hobby obviously survived.
I think the greatest current hindrance (not demise) is cost. Limited runs and advancements in technologies/detail continue to run up the prices. It leaves me wondering just how close the market is to bearing it all - particularly in the current state (downward trending) of the economy.
NeO6874 wrote: Autobus Prime wrote: The kids are running more steamers than the PRR had.Can you blame them (us)? Steam is definately better than diesel! Especially to a kid -- from a kid's PoV, Diesel = big boring box on wheels; whereas steam locos have all those moving bits that you don't exactly know what they do, but they're really (and I mean REALLY) cool to watch. I envy those of you lucky enough to have seen a big, breathing, living steam loco going about it's daily work. The best I can accomplish is old 50's and 60's era video (either put out by the RR's themselves, or shot by railfans) and the amusement park or museum RR's that use steam locos.
Autobus Prime wrote: The kids are running more steamers than the PRR had.
NeO:
You won't get any argument from me on that. I've only seen 3 real live steam engines in action, all in foamer service, and that's enough. The combination of coal smoke and steam oil is powerfully addictive, as is the aura of lost legend.
Diesels are all right, and I like watching them, too, but steam is king.
I think that the rise of the video game in the 80s marked the real end to train sets as a popular toy as well as a slew of other toys that took a lot more effort to play with. Yeah.. I used the "T" word.. but for purposes of this discussion it fits. I look back and my last Model Railroader as a teen arrived in 1983, the same year I got my own computer (TRS-80 model 1!). My issues start again in 2000.. a 17 year lapse of interest.
I think that the rise of cheap HO train sets didnt help.. they were quite aggravating if you wanted to set up with them on the floor to play with. Lionel and American Flyer had been much better suited to the rug empire. Its too bad the kind of plastic roadbed track we have now was not available then. I know in the 70s I enjoyed my Dad's American Flyer more when visiting my grandparents then I did my own HO set at home. Eventually I got into model trains more seriously but thats due to my grandfather's layout more then the train set..
I think that to interest kids in model trains now you have to lead by example.. they are going to want to participate with a parent (or whatever) in building a model railroad as opposed to playing themselves with a train set. I am sure there are exceptions, but with my son (all of 8 weeks!) I am hoping tio quietly get him interested by just being interested in it myself rather then by trying to flood him with toy train stuff. At least, not so much flooding of stuff!
Chris
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Hehe.... Our weekly "hobby death" thread...
Fortunately, there are some decent starter sets out there these days. Now, my father still has an original Athearn train set from the early 60s that was probably top-of-the-line trainset material then. Not much change from the current day Blue Box items.
Varney, Athearn, MDC, and Mantua seem to have been the products of choice for my Dad in the late 50s into the 60s. Tyco was certainly a step down in quality. But it was a step up in affordability.
A friend of mine had a Tyco trainset that he and his dad built a layout around. It was good kiddie fodder, but he didn't stick with the hobby. Although I had a few Tyco items, my dad ensured I had better stuff on my layout, and I stuck with the hobby.
Tyco bad? No, not at all. Depends on what you're looking for. Tyco good for the hobby? Hard to say. I don't know how many Tyco-ites stuck with the hobby, or how many left in frustration. Tyco responsible for the decline of the hobby? Ha! That's a good one.
I always come back to this; I believe that those with a deep passion for trains and modeling them in miniature will stay with the hobby no matter what the challenge. Those that are just looking for a hobby ("Hey,maybe I'll try model trains!") are less likely to stick with it. Many will, no doubt, but I feel it's a deep-seated love of railroading prior to the first train set purchase that makes the model railroader that will rise up beyond the challenges of bad equipment or budget constraints.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
The cheap train sets didn't help the hobby, but another thing that I think is a great contributing factor as to why so many get out of the hobby is their own patience (or lack of.)
I look back at my own experiences and at one point was about to give up on the hobby myself. Nothing came out right. My track soldering was horrible, my scenery looked like something out of Land of the Giants and those old Monty Python cartoon clips, and in general, I didn't know what i was doing at the time nor how to get to the point of quality modeling.
One thing I did have was patience and perseverance. (If at first you don't succeed, try, try, again.) After my first two layout disasters, I started to read a lot about the hobby, listened to some of the old guys, and eventually learned the techniques to do it. A lot of people are too easily frustrated when things don't go right on the first try and soon after, lose all interest, weither it was a cheap tyco or quality equipment. I think that people fall away from the hobby because of their own demeaner. Either a person is willing to have the patience it takes to model or they don't....chuck
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I think that whether a particular individual has a positive or negative experience with his first toy train set depends largely on what he does when he begins to experience troubles with it.
My grandfather had a 4 x 6 HO layout with mostly TYCO equipment that ran fairly well. Because I liked his trains, I went out and bought my own train set (an AHM set with their Plymouth switcher, two cars, a caboose and a loop of track). Then, when I started having problems with the couplers on the locomotive I asked my grandfather for advice. Naturally, he directed me to the two LHS' in town, where I got some real help from both proprietors and picked up my first copy of MR. So, when the time came for me to upgrade my locomotive, I already knew where to go. Once I got that first, nearly indestructable, Athearn geep, there was no turning back for me.
However, if there had been no LHS, I might have given up. I have heard LHS owners complain about train sets sold at discount stores - both because of their own lost revenue, and because of the number of dads and kids that come in a month after Christmas with a broken engine who then leave in disgust when they learn it can't be fixed (cheaply). However, there will always be one or two of these kids that decide to stick around and see what they could get instead, and I believe that is where the future of the hobby lies.
If we had the statistics available, we could calculate a ratio of kids that stick with the hobby vs. total kids that get a train set for Christmas. But, with the declining number of brick-and-mortar shops, where a kid with a broken train can turn for help, advice, and better equipment, that ratio may well be trending down. Another potential factor, if that ratio is truly dropping, may be the fewer numbers of "Blue Box" locomotives and freight car kits that are available these days. When the least expensive of the medium quality locomotives is twice the price of the original train set, it can be a tough sell.
I know the topic of dwindling numbers of LHS' (and the trend away from blue box) comes up on this forum constantly, so I don't want to belabor those points. But, when the day comes that MRRing becomes an internet/mail order hobby only, and there is no opportunity for a budding MRR to get the help he needs now and a friendly demonstration of why that $100 engine is worth the price, that's when the hobby may be in trouble.
Just my 2 cents.
Tom
Here is the link to the Nat Polk interview:
http://www.aristocraft.com/articles/nat/natpolk.html
He has some other interesting comments worth reading.
Jim
Folks:
Honestly, the modern basic sets aren't all that bad. Even the cheapie Life-Like sidewinders do pretty much what they are supposed to. The kids want to see it go, and it goes. I have found that even the sidewinders, though nothing special, are much more durable and better-looking than the PT Tycos. Even at that, though, I had a lot of fun with my PT Tycos as a kid, and the unit went back together after a tumble down some stairs. What eventually killed it was probably an attempt to "fix it". As a youngster, disassembly was my strong point...let's leave it at that.
The plastic-roadbed track systems have solved one problem by allowing track to be solidly and easily connected on the floor. The major problem with kids' HO are when daddy's fingers are too big to get the thing on the tracks, and he ends up making up new words. The skill comes with time. Another problem is that most people don't know how to clean track and wheels, so the train only lasts one season.
Trains don't need to be perfect, from our viewpoint, for kids to like them. They do have to be fun. I think a line of reliable operating accessories and cars, included Tyco-style in train sets, would do a lot to make HO sets even more fun.
I had better stop before people start throwing Tyco GG1s...
Beat ya! My first N Scale train set was from Atlas..Mind you in the mid 60s "serious" modelers thought N Scale was a passing fad and not to be taken seriously.
I ran mine on the kitchen table and ran that little train loop after loop after loop.