Grayfox, I know all that, but I just couldn't see one backfire causing all that, but now that we have fried electronic controls all is made clear.
Allegheny, get a fused surge protector. They are cheaper, but they only work once, and you can almost never find replacement fuses (they are actually in line fusible links). But, they do work that one time. Saved my computer when lightning hit the phone lines, but I couldn't find more fuses, so I got another type, and POW! the next strike got the computer too.
grayfox1119 wrote: Virginian: An oil fired furnace can cause that sort of accicent quite easily. It is usually caused by wear of key parts or adjustment for ignition. Vaporized oil is not suppose to flow into the furnace until the ignitor fires. This is accomplished via an 11kv transformer causing the spark to jump a precisely set gap between two electrodes. If the gap is set wrong, or wears too wide, or is carbonized, and oil is still spraying into the fire box, you have one good backfire when/if the ignitor re-fires. This causes one big back puff out the seems of the door, and every seam that is not tight.Many people do not perform ANNUAL maintenance, they wait until things fail, or, until something like this happens, either because they don't know they must perform this maintenance, or, they are trying to save a few bucks. In most cases, it is because people just don't know how furnaces work, and the dangers of not performing annual maintenance.
Virginian: An oil fired furnace can cause that sort of accicent quite easily. It is usually caused by wear of key parts or adjustment for ignition. Vaporized oil is not suppose to flow into the furnace until the ignitor fires. This is accomplished via an 11kv transformer causing the spark to jump a precisely set gap between two electrodes. If the gap is set wrong, or wears too wide, or is carbonized, and oil is still spraying into the fire box, you have one good backfire when/if the ignitor re-fires. This causes one big back puff out the seems of the door, and every seam that is not tight.
Many people do not perform ANNUAL maintenance, they wait until things fail, or, until something like this happens, either because they don't know they must perform this maintenance, or, they are trying to save a few bucks. In most cases, it is because people just don't know how furnaces work, and the dangers of not performing annual maintenance.
Driline wrote:I thought oil firing furnaces went away with the mini skirt? We had one in the early 60's and then converted over to heated water. My own homes have been forced air.
Oil fired or hot water or forced air???
Do you walk to work or carry your lunch?
I've had oil fired hot water. They are not mutually exclusive.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Mark thanks for all the common sense advice yes your right I need to take deep breaths etc. and have approached it with a clear mind now. To all of you who have replied thanks for the sentiments and advice. To clarify a few things we have oil because natural gas is not available in our area. I could have changed to propane but the cost of propane is astronomical and it just wouldn't be practical. As far as maintenance goes my oil company maintained the furnace regularly and the service tech. that last checked it told me that he was impressed at how well it was running and how clean it was. The cause of the whole disaster was caused by a power surge or spike, which took out the electronic safety control board. The spike also tool out the two computers, which were in the same room. The adjuster told me that surge protectors aren't worth the material they are made of because the spike happens so fast the surge protector and or circuit breaker doesn't even see it to trip the safety. The part of this which really frosts me is that I just had the electrical service in the house changed and the electrician mentioned about a whole house surge protector and that's where it ended. He never asked us if we wanted it or not. Would it have made a difference or not I was told it would and I was told it wouldn't have so it's all water under the bridge right now.
Fortunately I have a good maybe even great insurance company who said they would cover the loss of my trains and or the cleaning 100%. I spoke to the adjuster and expressed my concerns that I didn't want to give up my trains no matter what. He told me he understood and that if I wanted to I could buy back anything they considered a total loss at a percentage of the amount given. Will they pro-rate or give me direct replacement value I will have to ask my adjustor.
I spoke to a very reputable train seller/service yesterday and what the game plan is that I will send him a few engines that are "the worst of the worst" and he will make an ascertain as to A: what to do and how long it will take to clean and service each engine. Hey if they are going to pay for it I would rather have them cleaned and repaired then replaced etc. Tony's trains also advised me to clean the track work and switch machines with acetone. I have gallons of it here at work so I'll give it a try. Last night we tried vacuuming some of the crap off the layout with one of those small computer vacuums. It seemed to do the job but will be extremely labor intensive.
I spoke to the folks at Micro Mark and I ordered an ultrasonic cleaning bath. I know from my experience with firearms that these things clean very well. I was also advised of a mild detergent solution along with a clean water rinse bath and either a low-pressure airline to blow them dry or maybe a very low temp in the oven with the door left open. I was even thinking of just using a high intensity lamp or just plain old air-drying. I think once I devise a system it will be fairly easy. I'm going to get together with those friends who helped me build my layout and we'll have a brain storming session as to how to approach rebuilding scenery etc. Well time to go search the Internet for more cleaning solutions and methods etc.
Thanks again for all your kind thoughts and replies
I am on like my fourth different oil furnace. I like them as a back up to a heat pump, and far better than gas or electric furnaces. The one in this house is a back up to the heat pump. I do not understand how what happened to yours happened. Not saying it didn't, because obviously, it did. Did your heat exchanger split a seam or what? Because the home circulating air is supposed to be totally separate from the combustion air circuit in every one I have ever seen or heard of. Otherwise your home would smell like oil all the time.
Only problem I have ever seen, and it was not on mine, was someone put a chimney cap over the flue and messed up the draft a bit, and did not adjust the flue damper to compensate. They got quite a bit of soot back into the house thru the flue damper when the wind was blowing because they did not notice the problem at first.
I had a gas furnace where the PVC flue settled between hangers and trapped condensate, and that sooted up the heat exchanger and the firebox kept tripping on overheat.
I sometimes use a kerosene heater in the house as well. No soot or smell if you get it going strong outside and do not shut if off to refill it. Great when the power goes out. And yes, for all the scaredy cats out there, I know what the safety instructions say, and yes I have a CO monitor. In six different houses, three of which were pretty darned tight, I have never tripped a CO/CO2 alarm. Fantastic when the power goes out for two or three days with an ice storm.
ALLEGHENY 2-6-6-6: I am so sorry to hear of your loss. After reading all the replies, you have received some good info from many of the guys. Having worked in equipment maintenance within the electronics and semiconductor fields all my life, I can tell you that your equipment "can" be cleaned. The big question is, how much time and money do you want to throw at this problem? Ultrasonic equipment can clean your equipment, and there are various size baths that you can use, you can even rent some of this equipment. Check this out before you make your final decisions.
Now for your furnace; furnaces should be maintained annually, service contracts are a great way to go for most people. As BobK mentioned already, they check the furnace from top to bottom, replace worn parts, change the oil filter, vacuum the chamber, and run efficiency tests, etc. Our state is now passing a bill that will require the added use of bio-fuel mixed with #2 heating oil. I hope someday that it will be 100% bio, then it will only smell like french fries when it backfires.
For the guys in other parts of the country who are not aware of what goes on outside their area, and as some of the guys have also mentioned already, homes in the U.S. and Canada are heated ( and cooled ) via several methods: Electric heat ( quiet, 0 maintenance, 100% efficient, but the most costly to run ), oil fired forced hot water, oil fired hot air, gas fired forced hot water, gas fired hot air, heat pump, solar electric, pellet stove, wood stove, coal stove, etc.
SUPER CLEAN. Yes it will take paint off if you saok it over night full strength, but I use it 4-1 to clean all my swap meet finds. Never harmed paint or decals. Also used it to clean lots of oily gunky stuff in the garage.
Very sorry for your loss, and can also recomend working with the adjuster. If things are going poorly don't get mad, wait 24hrs and call there boss.
Tim
Being a chemical engineering student, I have spent many a day in chemistry labs. Basically like dissolves like. ie. oil will dissolve in oil based solvents, water in water based solvents. Everyone knows oil is hydrophobic, so stay away from any water based solvents. Dish soap may work, as it is mild enough. Perhaps orange oil? The problem with that would be cost, it sounds like you would need a lot.
The problem you are going to run into is that plastic is an oil based product and will be eaten by any strong solvent. Benzene, Acetone (nail polish remover), MEK, ether(starting fluid), Gasoline(an interesting possibility), even WD40 would all be too strong. Pick a piece of rolling stock that you don't want and try some of those, but you may end up with a puddle of plastic.
This is something I picked up from bowling. The bowling ball will absorb the oil off the lane and begins to lose it's effectiveness after many games. What I do is take a 5 gallon bucket, fill it part way with hot/warm water and dish soap, then let the ball soak for a period of time. The oil floats on top of the water, which can be skimmed off. I also pull the ball out, wipe it off, and change the water often. It takes time, but gets rid of the oil. You might want to try it with your trains. You could do it in the a bathtub or laundry tub. Take the shells off your locos and put them with your rolling stock in the warm water. You may need to take a soft bristled brush to them.
Lastly, if you run them through the dishwasher, beware that the heating element can get quite hot. I have used the dishwasher to clean bowling balls in the past. The coverstock on the balls (reactive resin) got soft and had dimples from the prongs on the racks in the dishwasher. I would imagine the styrene could get soft as well. You could always air dry after the rinse cycle
Also, make sure to allow plenty of drying time for the mechanism and relube it afterwards.
Good Luck!
Big ole Yikes!!
If there is just soot over things you maybe in luck, but if fuel oil got on things, thats a big ole mess. Fuel oil will not be friendly on plastic and will soften over time. You will prolly want a mini vacuum to hit small things and not suck off all the details. If the insurance company will cover cleanup maybe it will be good to refer to a cleaning company that specializes in cleanup like this. A work buddy had a fire in the kitchen and never did I know there was a company that specializes in sucking out the soot in the heating system. The cleaning company may know all the ups and downs and intricate problems in cleanup.
First, my sincere condolences on your misadventure. I haven't had anything exactly similar, but I have had to re-locate several times (career military.) I forget which of the famous and quotable stated, "Two removes are equal to one fire," but I think he was on to something.
Texas Zepher wrote: Allegheny2-6-6-6 wrote:I have basically written the entire set up off as trash. So now I have the insurance company to deal with and they say no problem we'll pay to have them cleaned, repaired or replaced. Here's the kicker, they want anything they deem as a total loss for salvage.That is entirely common insurance company practice. Screw the money there is a huge emotional attachment as many of you can understand with my trains. Last fathers day my 4 year old son gave me a Proto Heritage 2000 0-6-0. The look on his little face was priceless when he gave daddy a cool train. So yeah I'm about to give that to some insurance company I think not.Why don't you have the things with emontional attachment or which are irreplacable cleaned, and let them scrap the rest. In some ways it could be a blessing in disguise. I wish I could get rid of a few things I wish I hadn't purchased (Genesis 4-6-6-4) for cash and replace them with things that would work for fit my scheme better.
Allegheny2-6-6-6 wrote:I have basically written the entire set up off as trash. So now I have the insurance company to deal with and they say no problem we'll pay to have them cleaned, repaired or replaced. Here's the kicker, they want anything they deem as a total loss for salvage.
Screw the money there is a huge emotional attachment as many of you can understand with my trains. Last fathers day my 4 year old son gave me a Proto Heritage 2000 0-6-0. The look on his little face was priceless when he gave daddy a cool train. So yeah I'm about to give that to some insurance company I think not.
My sentiments exactly. First, check to see if your insurer will give you a little time to test whether you can clean up your rolling stock. (Make your tests on expendables like BB freight cars, not sentimental items.) After testing gives either a go or a no-go, segregate those items you absolutely, positively want to keep and let them have the rest, or segregate everything you consider worth recovering and let them have the rest. Recovering the layout itself, the electricals and un-washable buildings would probably not be cost effective (or even safe, in the case of anything with lights or power.)
You might end up with most of your rolling stock scheduled for a trip through the dishwasher, or only sentimental pieces to be placed in the hands of someone who cleans fine jewelry. Only testing will tell.
Either way, cooperate with your insurer. You'll both be happier.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I feel truly sorry for you, Allegheny. As others have said, locos and rolling stock probably can be cleaned, will not be returned to prior-to-incident condition, you'll need to weight time and effort against insurance payment, replaceability of item, emotional attachment, etc.
I know that oil heat is still strong in New England, and I think some of the north central too. In New England, a lot of it is existing systems in older housing.
But I would never be happy with a furnace - naked fires in the house, regular maintenance needed, have to order fuel, etc. Also extremely costly to move the equipment around if a major remodelling calls for doing so. Some older houses in my area have oil and the trend is for them to shift over time to forced air; every year there are several horror stories about their fuel company pumping a few hundred gallons into an exterior connecting pipe that is no longer connected to a tank. Here in the mid-Atlantic heat pumps work very well - we have a pretty large house but our heating bill rarely exceeds about $100 / month.
In all likelyhood unless you have a really good insurance company you're likely to end up on your own for the most part. If you find a cleaning agency that'll take the job on it might well cost more than replacemnent value and that might be another issue. See what the adjuster says. If you really don't like what you hear and you get nowhere with the insurance company contact your state insurance commision and see what rights you have. It varies state to state.
I would guess the rolling stock will be cleanable and after researching some likely methods I'd start with some less dear cars and see how it goes. Hopefully you don't have a lot of time in weathering as whatever cleans the soot will almost certainly remove any weathering. The scenery might be the biggest problem since most of it will need cleaning in place. I really sympathize with your loss and hope it ll works out for you, but i fear you have a long road back. Good luck, J.R.
Man. I really feel for your loss. Makes me glad for my natural gas appliances.
I second the poster above about dishwashing liquid. I once received training for cleaning wildlife caught in oil spills - and they used Dawn straight from the bottle. It's gentle but effective on most oily liquids.
I'd bet that most of the track and other hardware can be salvaged. Not sure about electrical works, but I wonder if they couldn't be cleaned, dried, and re-lubricated. I'd be most concerned about the electronics (decoders and DCC systems) and anything made of wood/paper/foam. You might even be able to clean lichen and such but I think all of your scratchbuilt structures (non-plastic) are probably shot.
The bright spot (assuming you can salvage the sentimental bits) is that you get to build a new setup - but be sure to invest some of the insurance money in a new furnace first.M
I would give glass cleaning products like Windex or glass Plus a try on the plastic items. They're great degreasers, are mild, and leave no residue. I use them on my models all the time, and the only time I've had an issue with paint was when the model was vintage and the paint had gotten tacky with age. Don't give up so soon, especially with the sentimental items.
You wouldn't believe some of the basket cases I've brought back.
I never knew oil furnaces burped like that. Sorry this had to happen to your pride & joy, but it may not be a total loss.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
May I suggest dissassembly and using one of these with a household degreaser.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=7340
Self contained and a closed loop system so small parts wont go down the drain and you can take as much time as needed to clean off the gunk, better that canning a whole collection.
Have fun with your trains
Uh oh. My layout is right next to an oil furnace!
Luckilly the house mostly uses wood pellet stoves for heat, the furnace is almost never on.
I can imagine the feeling when you realize something that bad! My heart's with you!
reklein wrote:Actually fuel oil is no.2 deisel,same fuel trctors and any deisel engine uses. I bet the top shelf in the dishwasher would work good. An alternative would be to use JOY and hot water and wash by hand almost everything ,even the brass and blow it out good after washing. I think even decoders will take some moisture if dried out well. Try one or two of each item and find out what worked the best. start with the cheap stuff and work with the method that works best.
Sorry to hear about your loss.
I agree with reklein that cleaning may be possible for a few of those sentimental pieces. Oil fired funaces, both boilers and hot air heat exchangers are very common here in New England. There are many areas that don't have natual gas available leaving propane, electric or oil as your choices. Oil is relatively safe, efficient and produces a high BTU/ gal for the price. It is very rare that a soot blowback happens unless the furnace is very old and has not been serviced properly. I don't know what the issues were with your's causing such a problem.
For those with oil fired funaces, do have them checked and cleaned before every heating season. A telltail sign of a clogged nozzle, sooted electrodes or soot within the chamber or target wall is a rummble or slight bang upon initial ingition, especially if the unit has cooled and has not fired within a few hours. Oil even with its high present cost is still comparable to gas unless you have a fairly new high efficiency gas unit. Many of the older large homes still are more efficient on oil, unless the entire massive heating system, radiator and piping is completely changed. Gas fired boilers and heat exchangers are then usually used to gain the efficiency but the cost is usually prohibitive unless you are doing a total gut and remodel.
Oil is not that bad... I'm not a heating contractor or plumber but have picked the brains of many subs over the years.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
secondhandmodeler wrote: Driline wrote: secondhandmodeler wrote: Driline wrote:I thought oil firing furnaces went away with the mini skirt? We had one in the early 60's and then converted over to heated water. My own homes have been forced air. I believe fuel oil is still quite common in New England.Why? I have no idea.
Driline wrote: secondhandmodeler wrote: Driline wrote:I thought oil firing furnaces went away with the mini skirt? We had one in the early 60's and then converted over to heated water. My own homes have been forced air. I believe fuel oil is still quite common in New England.Why?
secondhandmodeler wrote: Driline wrote:I thought oil firing furnaces went away with the mini skirt? We had one in the early 60's and then converted over to heated water. My own homes have been forced air. I believe fuel oil is still quite common in New England.
Why?
As it has been said before, there is a high concentration of homes that use oil heat in the Northeast US. I've lived in New England for over 25 years now (originally from the Midwest where Natural Gas heat is/was prevalent), and I had never even heard of oil heat until I moved out here. I can only conclude that it's a well entrenched industry that has always enjoyed deep connections with the local building industry.
But that's changing. In the grand scheme of things, oil heat is only used in 7 percent of American households. That's down from 9 percent a decade ago (these figures come from a recent AP article). Natural Gas is moving in with a vengeance, and it's being helped by the fact that oil heat is currently twice as expensive as Natural Gas. Needless to say, those who can are converting.
I'm thankful to be hooked into Natural Gas at my home.
First, take a deep breath and walk away. Do not assess it fully until you've cleared your mind to where you can focus logically. During that time, go yourself to one of the myriad of restoration services and educate yourself on the products that will clean the items you want to save without damaging the plastic and electrical components.
By the time you have this information, you will be settled in your mind as to what you can and should salvage. Anything that you can go down to the store and replace today should be the first items to be handed off to the insurance company - get new. That would include all track / turnouts / out-of-the-box structures / controllers / etc.
With all that stuff out of the way, it's time to look at the out of production / scratch-built / sentimental items. Some of these items could be replaced with similar new items - referring to the out-of-production engines and freight cars. Any engines with decoders in them that you are willing to give up should save the decoders themselves as they have probably been protected within the shell.
At this point, you'll have the irreplaceable items left. These can all be cleaned using the knowledge you acquired earlier from the professionals. I would highly recommend taking some of your insurance money and invest in an ultra-sonic cleaner. These will do a lot of the work for you and can get into even the smallest places that you just can't get to by hand - especially great for steam engines. Bridges and structure will have to be done by hand, it's tedious, but it can be done.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
jecorbett wrote:I can understand the insurance company wanting the items that are total losses if for no other reason than to discourage fraud by those who would take the money for a total loss and then repair the item. I don't have any advice for cleaning the locos. If it were my layout, I would be more concerned about all the sweat equity I had put into it. It wouldn't bother me to replace the locos and rolling stock but I put a lot of time into building the structure kits and the scenery and how do I get compensated for that. I would guess one would have to get a special coverage to cover the cost of having someone come in and rebuild your layout.
If I spent 100 hours building my layout town on the 12 foot long section dedicated to it... I cannot expect to make a penny for the time. I would expect the enjoyment and pursuit of happiness to be beneficial in stress reduction and perhaps enjoying good health and staying away from the hospital or vices.
If it was a layout that was purchased and built for you? Well there should be a few firms in the insurance business that insure model railroading stuff. Didnt MR run a ad for a small insurance company offering coverage in 1000, 5000, 10000+ dollar levels?
If anything happened to my railroad and ,.. let's say it got burned up in a big old fire. The house plus contents will be paid for and rebuilt. What is left from that money will start us all over again provided that everything is properly handled.
Personally, I dont mind rebuilding from nothing all over again. Ive done it several times already in this life.
Why? That is they way they built it. Most homes I know of in the central Atlantic area had oil. One advantage was to buy the stuff mid summer where the prices are at it's lowest and store until winter. That way it's bought and paid for in the coldest months requiring only electricity to run the oil pump motor, thermostat and the igniter.
Even wood in some areas.
Here in the south it's mostly Natural Gas. There are 5 pipelines to Arkansas that carry the stuff and a small boomtime of drilling in my area for shale gas. Some folks use wood either bought or cut from thier own lands. Some folks have all electric for everything and boy are they sorry. At $300-$500 per month billing.
If memory serves, the early 50's were the boom in housing after the war years and those that had oil lived in luxury versus the coal homes. Coal was pretty durn good by then but oil was king.
Overseas in England, one family home I visited once used coal or peat to heat everything believe it or not. I dont know how they got thier hot water and didnt ask.
We use lots of furnace oil fuel in Canada...tonnes and tons.
I am sorry for all the damage and upheaval this is costing you. I suppose that, once it is getting to be mostly an unpleasant chapter in your past, you can look forward to trying something new/better for your layout. I hope the locomotives can be cleaned a bit, at least the special ones.
-Crandell