loathar wrote:That's strange. I did all mine with a $20 bulk pack of #5's and some 3 cent screws from my hardware store. Got about 100 draft gear boxes from McHenry for $2. Total of about $1.25/car.Guess I should have just got rid of them though...
There you go. I've never seen a bulk pack of gear boxes. I gotta find a Hobby shop.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
The horn hook couplers, can withstand rough handling (a must for younger train enthusiasts) where the new knuckle couplers break very easily. ...
The Hook Brings You Back I Aint Tellin You No Lie The Hook...on That You Can Rely
47gotcha wrote: I've been out of the hobby for several years due to moving to several new homes since my last model railroad build. All of my boxed up equipment is fairly old and it all has horn hook couplers. I intend to eventually convert over to knuckle couplers, but it may be awhile. I am also eyeing some newer motive power and rolling stock, most of which now comes with knuckle couplers. My question is; Will knuckle couplers mate up with the horn hook couplers of my existing equipment?
I've been out of the hobby for several years due to moving to several new homes since my last model railroad build. All of my boxed up equipment is fairly old and it all has horn hook couplers. I intend to eventually convert over to knuckle couplers, but it may be awhile. I am also eyeing some newer motive power and rolling stock, most of which now comes with knuckle couplers. My question is; Will knuckle couplers mate up with the horn hook couplers of my existing equipment?
You have not been gone long enough for the couplers to match.
No, they are not compatible in any way and that is really the good news. Once you have converted to regular knuckle couplers, the operation is improved to the point you can enjoy the hobby. The horn hook can be used if you convert one car with knuckle on one end and a horn hook at the other, you could still pull a train, but it will not back without problems.
Cheers
SpaceMouse wrote: loathar wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's. WRONG!!! Nothing wrong with converting your old stuff over to Kadee's. It's NOT difficult and only costs about $1/per car/loco.My guess at the price is about $2 for the couplers, plus you have to buy the 2-56 tap and screws, cut the old box off and glue it in place. Then tap out the plastic and mount the coupler. If you then have to adust the height, it is even more work. To me this is more work and money than I want to spend on when I can get a better car at a train show with the couplers already mounted for $4--and get my $4 back from selling the old car on eBay.
loathar wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's. WRONG!!! Nothing wrong with converting your old stuff over to Kadee's. It's NOT difficult and only costs about $1/per car/loco.
SpaceMouse wrote: Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's.
Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's.
WRONG!!! Nothing wrong with converting your old stuff over to Kadee's. It's NOT difficult and only costs about $1/per car/loco.
My guess at the price is about $2 for the couplers, plus you have to buy the 2-56 tap and screws, cut the old box off and glue it in place. Then tap out the plastic and mount the coupler. If you then have to adust the height, it is even more work. To me this is more work and money than I want to spend on when I can get a better car at a train show with the couplers already mounted for $4--and get my $4 back from selling the old car on eBay.
Chip,Let's look into this a tad deeper shall we?
The new bulk 148's are $39.95 for 25 pair..That's $1.60.(rounding off to the next highest) per car.Not bad.
The #5 bulk pack(20 pr) is $25.75 or $1.29 (rounding off to the next higher number)..The better deal.
However,the price goes up with the scale couplers.
I could not locate any "bulk" coupler boxes other then the standard pack of 10 pair for $2.85/2.95 per pack.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
loathar wrote: I had an Athearn GP with a KD on one end and a horn on the other untill I got all my cars changed over. I don't really remember the horn hooks coming uncoupled or giving me any problems. Didn't have to worry about coupler height with them either.
I had an Athearn GP with a KD on one end and a horn on the other untill I got all my cars changed over.
I don't really remember the horn hooks coming uncoupled or giving me any problems. Didn't have to worry about coupler height with them either.
I never had trouble with the dreaded ''horn hooks'' either, or worried about ''coupler height'', but I gave into the mass hysteria that I HAD to change to knuckles if my railroad were to be viewed by anyone, so I did, and the never ending disconnections, foul ups and general uselessness of those knuckles made me change right back to horn hooks! and.... before theres a flurry of posts about what I did wrong, I used a height gauge, I used Kadee pockets, I used Mchenry AND Kadee couplers, I body mounted and I checked everything twice...and it was still a huge pain, those knuckles disconnect at the slightest pressure, hook say, 12, heavy cars up together , start pulling and pop! they come uncoupled. I got tired of it, I wasted time and money fooling with changing everything over, and you know what? not a SINGLE person ever even noticed there were ''prototypical'' knuckle couplers on my equipment, they did notice the constant uncoupling though.
So now I change those knuckles over to horn hooks, I don't care if they aren't prototypical, or they're out of scale, or ''old fashioned''...THEY WORK!
So change them if you must, but be ready for never ending maintenence and problems.
BRAKIE wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: loathar wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's. WRONG!!! Nothing wrong with converting your old stuff over to Kadee's. It's NOT difficult and only costs about $1/per car/loco.My guess at the price is about $2 for the couplers, plus you have to buy the 2-56 tap and screws, cut the old box off and glue it in place. Then tap out the plastic and mount the coupler. If you then have to adust the height, it is even more work. To me this is more work and money than I want to spend on when I can get a better car at a train show with the couplers already mounted for $4--and get my $4 back from selling the old car on eBay. Chip,Let's look into this a tad deeper shall we? The new bulk 148's are $39.95 for 25 pair..That's $1.60.(rounding off to the next highest) per car.Not bad.The #5 bulk pack(20 pr) is $25.75 or $1.29 (rounding off to the next higher number)..The better deal.However,the price goes up with the scale couplers.I could not locate any "bulk" coupler boxes other then the standard pack of 10 pair for $2.85/2.95 per pack.
Micro-Mark carries the bulk coupler_boxes, 20 pair. The price, however, is the same as if you bought 2 packs of the standard 10 pair packages.
They also have bulk pack of scale_knuckle_couplers at $26.85 for 20 pair. These are Kadee brand, not some cheap copy. They come out to $1.34 per pair/per car which is not a whole lot less than the $1.60 you quoted for the 25 pair package. The savings will add up as a lot of people buy multiple packs of these bulk packages to outfit their fleet.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
LD357 wrote:...and it was still a huge pain, those knuckles disconnect at the slightest pressure, hook say, 12, heavy cars up together , start pulling and pop!....
...and it was still a huge pain, those knuckles disconnect at the slightest pressure, hook say, 12, heavy cars up together , start pulling and pop!....
I'm willing to bet your failed couplers were the McHenry ones, more often so that the Kadee ones.
LD357 wrote: I never had trouble with the dreaded ''horn hooks'' either, or worried about ''coupler height'', but I gave into the mass hysteria that I HAD to change to knuckles if my railroad were to be viewed by anyone, so I did, and the never ending disconnections, foul ups and general uselessness of those knuckles made me change right back to horn hooks! and.... before theres a flurry of posts about what I did wrong, I used a height gauge, I used Kadee pockets, I used Mchenry AND Kadee couplers, I body mounted and I checked everything twice...and it was still a huge pain, those knuckles disconnect at the slightest pressure, hook say, 12, heavy cars up together , start pulling and pop! they come uncoupled. I got tired of it, I wasted time and money fooling with changing everything over, and you know what? not a SINGLE person ever even noticed there were ''prototypical'' knuckle couplers on my equipment, they did notice the constant uncoupling though. So now I change those knuckles over to horn hooks, I don't care if they aren't prototypical, or they're out of scale, or ''old fashioned''...THEY WORK! So change them if you must, but be ready for never ending maintenence and problems.
I got a good chuckle out of your response. Yes, horn hook couplers work but they look dreadful, which is part of why they are "dreaded". I have had them uncouple on me in my early days when I was a kid or still in college and spending money on couplers was secondary to getting the actual trains. I realize you tried to do all the right things but if your train came uncoupled, it was either because the couplers were not mounted properly despite all your efforts or those plastic clones fail, as they sometimes too. I've had to work extra hard on some kits (especially Athearn with the metal clip) to allow KD's to swing and center freely. Occasionally a knuckle spring will pop out but not often and they can be secured with a touch of AC glue. Yes, any coupler be it horn hook or knuckle can be stuck in the wrong position because of the draft gear box or the spring or other reasons, and therefore not engauge or uncouple at the wrong time or on a curve. NEITHER are 100% reliable but KD's come pretty close and look close to real train couplers while they are doing it.
But, to each his own and different strokes. It goes without saying that people like KD's because the "look" alot like the real thing and for a majority of model railroaders, realism has ALWAYS been the central draw to the hobby. You mentioned not a single person noticed you didn't have prototypical couplers on your trains? Your audience must have been very casual train watchers indeed. This topic only proves the wides spectrum of people interested in trains - from those who are interested in them as caracatures of the real thing at one end, to those who are trying to model them down to the last dimension and rivit at the other ("proto 48 crowd"). I would gather than most of the folks who hang out on these forums are after a degree of realism and the more the better. I have never counted rivits (honest!) but I do try to buy models and move my roster ever closer to a representation of real trains during my 20's and 30's in Colorado and California. I realize that most of us will not reach 100% realism but we are usually striving and working in that direction little by little. Couplers are a very basic part of that effort.
Anyway, I know I'm preaching to the choir here since I've been on the internet (1994-present) the resounding consensus has always been KD's and at the very least knuckle couplers. The reasons almost go without saying but there are exceptions now and then and we all have to get along to some degree (maybe not in the same club heh heh).
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I agree when properly mounted the X2F coupler works quite well..
And RG,Nobody ever said the X2F would win a beauty contest..A ugly contest I suspect the X2F would come in third place after Mantua's loop and hook and the Kup-eze coupler.
BRAKIE wrote: I agree when properly mounted the X2F coupler works quite well..And RG,Nobody ever said the X2F would win a beauty contest..A ugly contest I suspect the X2F would come in third place after Mantua's loop and hook and the Kup-eze coupler.
As a kid, I hated the X2F coupler - yes even as a kid I thought KD's looked really cool and looked alot more realistic than the the functional loop and hook or horn hook. Now I just take it for granted and am happy that the industry as a whole has toss the X2F firmly into the dust bin of history. The plastic clones are inferior to KD's no doubt, but a major leap over the ugliniess of the X2F. There are some fossils still running around with them but they too will fade over time. They Syracuse train show (going on this weekend) probably has alot of X2F floating around due to the ponderance of old junky trains dominating the tables there.
Oddly I know of one club that still allows the use of X2F so the club is 50/50..Would you believe this club doesn't allow the KD clones..
As a kid the X2F was the "standard" coupler that was being used by the majority of the modelers including those that would become today's "greats"! I recall seeing a early picture of the V&O in MR(1963?) and the equipment had X2F couplers.
Make no mistake the X2F was the standard coupler at one time and it came with a plastic spring or a metal coupler with a brass spring that mounted on the back.
Another good choice in the 50s was the Mantua's working knuckle coupler.These was pushed aside by the X2F.
Well, I just don't care if those horn hooks don't look ''right'', I don't care about ''prototypical'' this and that, I don't care if its all the rage to have Kadees or whatever, the folks who come to see my railroad, and bring their kids, don't care either, and I ESPECIALLY don't care what the goobers from the LHS think!
I used McHenry AND Kadee couplers and both uncoupled, I did everything right, and it was a total waste of time, those little springs pop out, the plastic McHenrys break, its all a waste of effort. If you're worried about the appearance of your equipment and you think those knuckles make it look ''cool''.....by all means switch over, I'll stick with what works.
LD357 wrote: loathar wrote: I had an Athearn GP with a KD on one end and a horn on the other untill I got all my cars changed over. I don't really remember the horn hooks coming uncoupled or giving me any problems. Didn't have to worry about coupler height with them either. I never had trouble with the dreaded ''horn hooks'' either, or worried about ''coupler height'', but I gave into the mass hysteria that I HAD to change to knuckles if my railroad were to be viewed by anyone, so I did, and the never ending disconnections, foul ups and general uselessness of those knuckles made me change right back to horn hooks! and.... before theres a flurry of posts about what I did wrong, I used a height gauge, I used Kadee pockets, I used Mchenry AND Kadee couplers, I body mounted and I checked everything twice...and it was still a huge pain, those knuckles disconnect at the slightest pressure, hook say, 12, heavy cars up together , start pulling and pop! they come uncoupled. I got tired of it, I wasted time and money fooling with changing everything over, and you know what? not a SINGLE person ever even noticed there were ''prototypical'' knuckle couplers on my equipment, they did notice the constant uncoupling though. So now I change those knuckles over to horn hooks, I don't care if they aren't prototypical, or they're out of scale, or ''old fashioned''...THEY WORK! So change them if you must, but be ready for never ending maintenence and problems.
arent the McHenry's all plastic? All the stories heard on these forums nothing works better than the Kadees. If your serious about long heavy trains, Kadee is it. It takes a good inspection regiment to make sure the Kadees work right, and mounted right, but when they do, they are reliable. 12 heavy cars wont "knuckle down" a kadee.
LD357 wrote: Well, I just don't care if those horn hooks don't look ''right'', I don't care about ''prototypical'' this and that, I don't care if its all the rage to have Kadees or whatever, the folks who come to see my railroad, and bring their kids, don't care either, and I ESPECIALLY don't care what the goobers from the LHS think! .... If you're worried about the appearance of your equipment and you think those knuckles make it look ''cool''.....by all means switch over, I'll stick with what works.
.... If you're worried about the appearance of your equipment and you think those knuckles make it look ''cool''.....by all means switch over, I'll stick with what works.
You make it sound like model train enthusiasts use Kadee's because of "peer pressure" or because of being shamed into it by fellow hobbiests, or to be cool. Take the reverse logic of anti prototypical far enough and you could put a shoe box on flanged wheels and run it on rails and be happy.
Like I said before, it isn't about cool, its about looking like the train cars I see in yards or roll by on the rails. I like to model what I see. That was very evident to me as a teenager when I used to watch the Southern Pacific switch the Hunt Wesson plant near my home in Davis California. If a teenage kid can see the difference and want to emulate it, that speaks volumes to me.
I realize there are lots of people, kids etc that like to look at trains as caracatures. By that they only see them in the most general terms and enjoy them like that. It sounds like that is the crowd you entertain. Nothing wrong with that. Just realize that in most model RR forums, 98% of the people do CARE about basic aspects of realism. So to each his own, but I think you are going to have a hard time convincing the crowd here of the advantages of horn hooks.
dinwitty wrote: LD357 wrote: loathar wrote: I had an Athearn GP with a KD on one end and a horn on the other untill I got all my cars changed over. I don't really remember the horn hooks coming uncoupled or giving me any problems. Didn't have to worry about coupler height with them either. I never had trouble with the dreaded ''horn hooks'' either, or worried about ''coupler height'', but I gave into the mass hysteria that I HAD to change to knuckles if my railroad were to be viewed by anyone, so I did, and the never ending disconnections, foul ups and general uselessness of those knuckles made me change right back to horn hooks! and.... before theres a flurry of posts about what I did wrong, I used a height gauge, I used Kadee pockets, I used Mchenry AND Kadee couplers, I body mounted and I checked everything twice...and it was still a huge pain, those knuckles disconnect at the slightest pressure, hook say, 12, heavy cars up together , start pulling and pop! they come uncoupled. I got tired of it, I wasted time and money fooling with changing everything over, and you know what? not a SINGLE person ever even noticed there were ''prototypical'' knuckle couplers on my equipment, they did notice the constant uncoupling though. So now I change those knuckles over to horn hooks, I don't care if they aren't prototypical, or they're out of scale, or ''old fashioned''...THEY WORK! So change them if you must, but be ready for never ending maintenence and problems. arent the McHenry's all plastic? All the stories heard on these forums nothing works better than the Kadees. If your serious about long heavy trains, Kadee is it. It takes a good inspection regiment to make sure the Kadees work right, and mounted right, but when they do, they are reliable. 12 heavy cars wont "knuckle down" a kadee.
Depends on what type of Mchenrys..I field tested the McHenry with the knuckle spring at the club..The results I found is they will work under normal home layout use but,under heavy club use including heavy yard switching the knuckle would fail in the close position by completely closing like a close fist.This would happen when shoving long cuts of cars.
One of the problems with the KD coupler is the knuckle spring has been known to fly off..I suspect the spring becomes weak with use and drops off.While this isn't a major concern it does and will happen.That's why experience modelers keeps a supply of knuckle springs on hand.
BRAKIE wrote: Oddly I know of one club that still allows the use of X2F so the club is 50/50..Would you believe this club doesn't allow the KD clones..
The club I belonged to here in town allowed horn hooks especially on passenger cars. They used an RPO car to transition. When I joined the club they asked me to make my personal project getting the passenger terminal working. I spent over a year working on it getting working, building the buildings, wiring the track and tuning the turnouts.
The design was such that the train had to back about 30 feet into the station or, as designed, the loco would pull in to an A/D track, break off and a switcher would push the cars into one of the 8 station tracks. The problem is that the horn hook couplers just didn't like to be pushed and the trains would derail on the turnouts. So no one used the yard.
The club refused to upgrade the couplers. I was in charge of passenger operations but my hands were tied. The passenger yard continued to serve as where people parked rolling stock that was broken or they otherwise didn't know what to do with. I couldn't even keep it looking good.
For years, I used the dreaded horn-hook couplers...mainly because I didn't know any better. That was, until I bought my first issue of MR at a newstand (in 1990...keep in mind I'd been running trains since about '82 or so)...and learned about the wonders of those couplers in the yellow envelopes. Once I noticed that my trains were no longer splitting in half on runs, or derailing on those stupid "uncoupling ramps" (aka "derailing ramps") I was hooked (pun intended). Those horn-hooks had to go!
Change-over was a gradual process, but now, everything has Kadees. Sure, they're a pain to fit sometimes, since they have to be at the same height. But once that's taken care of, I've found that they're 99% reliable. The few times that they've uncoupled...have always been something screwy with the track. Maybe a nail is sticking up, or maybe the track isn't quite level.
For me, there wasn't any "peer pressure" involved. Kadee simply makes a better, more reliable, product. That was what sold me on them.
riogrande5761 wrote: LD357 wrote: Well, I just don't care if those horn hooks don't look ''right'', I don't care about ''prototypical'' this and that, I don't care if its all the rage to have Kadees or whatever, the folks who come to see my railroad, and bring their kids, don't care either, and I ESPECIALLY don't care what the goobers from the LHS think! .... If you're worried about the appearance of your equipment and you think those knuckles make it look ''cool''.....by all means switch over, I'll stick with what works.You make it sound like model train enthusiasts use Kadee's because of "peer pressure" or because of being shamed into it by fellow hobbiests, or to be cool. Take the reverse logic of anti prototypical far enough and you could put a shoe box on flanged wheels and run it on rails and be happy.Like I said before, it isn't about cool, its about looking like the train cars I see in yards or roll by on the rails. I like to model what I see. That was very evident to me as a teenager when I used to watch the Southern Pacific switch the Hunt Wesson plant near my home in Davis California. If a teenage kid can see the difference and want to emulate it, that speaks volumes to me. I realize there are lots of people, kids etc that like to look at trains as caracatures. By that they only see them in the most general terms and enjoy them like that. It sounds like that is the crowd you entertain. Nothing wrong with that. Just realize that in most model RR forums, 98% of the people do CARE about basic aspects of realism. So to each his own, but I think you are going to have a hard time convincing the crowd here of the advantages of horn hooks.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. The original post was a question as to opinions on horn hooks or knuckles, I stated MY opinion from MY experience. I don't have a bunch of ''prototypical operators'' parading through my layout room, I have relatives, friends and kids, they don't give a hoot about whether or not theres a knuckle coupler on anything, they like the trains, the scenery, the thousands of details and the FUN!
I've had my fill of the ''rivet counters'' and ''prototypical operators'' in the clubs, who can't have fun because they're too busy with that stupid scale ruler, their little book of railroad car pics and the constant ''trying-to-outdo-each-other'' mentality. I've seen operating sessions dissolve into near fist fights over the stupidest things, and the constant ridicule of members whose models weren't ''worthy'' of the others. The coupler fiasco was a chief complaint, the non-stop ''why don't you get with it and put Kadees on your junk'' got old fast. Not everyone cares about trivial things like that, I certainly didn't. Thats why I quit the club thing and now I play with my trains and invite friends to bring the kids and let them play too. I realize not all clubs are full of idiots, but no one can say that ALL clubs are a jovial bunch of modellers looking to have fun. And thats why I don't care if my equipment isn't ''prototypical'', it's not supposed to be, it supposed to be fun.
47gotcha wrote:I've been out of the hobby for several years due to moving to several new homes since my last model railroad build. All of my boxed up equipment is fairly old and it all has horn hook couplers. I intend to eventually convert over to knuckle couplers, but it may be awhile. I am also eyeing some newer motive power and rolling stock, most of which now comes with knuckle couplers. My question is; Will knuckle couplers mate up with the horn hook couplers of my existing equipment?
I'm stepping back in here with a repeat of my answer, which I believe answers the question, it's amazing how one persons question can start a war of experts that go off on completely different directions, the question is stated clearly in the opening enquiry, my answer still stands as:
For an initial cure to get you a conversion car (or indeed all if you wish), cut off the gathering tab on the horn hook with a good set of flush cutters, then cut off the protrusion underneath, you will be left with a basic knuckle, file the cut edges a bit to make smooth surfaces, and you will have a coupler that will mate automatically with Kadees (and most other magnetics), at no cost.
A cheap way to get you up and running, it can be a bit daunting to try and change everything over at once, this is a temporary cure that we find becomes quite permanent on older stock where switching is not required. Or just to get up and running again.
Teditor
Hope this answers "THE QUESTION" and keeps you involved!
LD357 wrote: riogrande5761 wrote: LD357 wrote: Well, I just don't care if those horn hooks don't look ''right'', I don't care about ''prototypical'' this and that, I don't care if its all the rage to have Kadees or whatever, the folks who come to see my railroad, and bring their kids, don't care either, and I ESPECIALLY don't care what the goobers from the LHS think! .... If you're worried about the appearance of your equipment and you think those knuckles make it look ''cool''.....by all means switch over, I'll stick with what works.You make it sound like model train enthusiasts use Kadee's because of "peer pressure" or because of being shamed into it by fellow hobbiests, or to be cool. Take the reverse logic of anti prototypical far enough and you could put a shoe box on flanged wheels and run it on rails and be happy.Like I said before, it isn't about cool, its about looking like the train cars I see in yards or roll by on the rails. I like to model what I see. That was very evident to me as a teenager when I used to watch the Southern Pacific switch the Hunt Wesson plant near my home in Davis California. If a teenage kid can see the difference and want to emulate it, that speaks volumes to me. I realize there are lots of people, kids etc that like to look at trains as caracatures. By that they only see them in the most general terms and enjoy them like that. It sounds like that is the crowd you entertain. Nothing wrong with that. Just realize that in most model RR forums, 98% of the people do CARE about basic aspects of realism. So to each his own, but I think you are going to have a hard time convincing the crowd here of the advantages of horn hooks. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. The original post was a question as to opinions on horn hooks or knuckles, I stated MY opinion from MY experience. I don't have a bunch of ''prototypical operators'' parading through my layout room, I have relatives, friends and kids, they don't give a hoot about whether or not theres a knuckle coupler on anything, they like the trains, the scenery, the thousands of details and the FUN! I've had my fill of the ''rivet counters'' and ''prototypical operators'' in the clubs, who can't have fun because they're too busy with that stupid scale ruler, their little book of railroad car pics and the constant ''trying-to-outdo-each-other'' mentality. I've seen operating sessions dissolve into near fist fights over the stupidest things, and the constant ridicule of members whose models weren't ''worthy'' of the others. The coupler fiasco was a chief complaint, the non-stop ''why don't you get with it and put Kadees on your junk'' got old fast. Not everyone cares about trivial things like that, I certainly didn't. Thats why I quit the club thing and now I play with my trains and invite friends to bring the kids and let them play too. I realize not all clubs are full of idiots, but no one can say that ALL clubs are a jovial bunch of modellers looking to have fun. And thats why I don't care if my equipment isn't ''prototypical'', it's not supposed to be, it supposed to be fun.
your issue is about the present situation your layout is in and the people around to run it.
Horn Hooks...fine!!
Just the hobby has been always on this quest for realism which include couplers. You can get fine scale wheels for smaller flanges and narrower treads to eliminate that toy small model look. And yes couplers try to do the realism thing also. Kadee seems to be the best around for the most prototyipical and economical way to have working couplers. And yes Kadee also has spring free versions so you dont have flying tiny parts. Kadee also has a smaller coupler for the fine scale modelrs, and I own working true knuckle couplers that date to the 50's. You can buy true knuckle couplers today also, and coupler technology still goes thru the working for that "better" coupler, and be realistic.
Think that there are other coupler designs such as the hook and loop version. Wowzers, but that emulates more european style.
I'd be curious how the horn hook design originated.
LD357 wrote: I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. The original post was a question as to opinions on horn hooks or knuckles, I stated MY opinion from MY experience. I don't have a bunch of ''prototypical operators'' parading through my layout room, I have relatives, friends and kids, they don't give a hoot about whether or not theres a knuckle coupler on anything, they like the trains, the scenery, the thousands of details and the FUN!
My bad! We hear you loud and in bold blue font clear!
I would like to point out there is a middle ground. We don't have to characterize people who are into realism as (my own words but I hear this in your tone) prototype police or fanatics. I see people who like a degree of realism but who are not rivit counters and who don't have to have every freight car a match to the prototype. Many of these modelers have alot of train cars that would be considered "fantasy" or "bogus" but they still use KD's and find they add a degree of realism and yes, reliability. I've operated them too and didn't experience the issues you did, but I did experience issues with my horn hooks. So I'll continue to argue my side of the story (which I suppose is the purpose of this thread. Readers and novices can gather a consensus here and decide for themselves.
Well, I will agree with you that many clubs can impose a high degree of restrictions on members and often to the point where the enjoyment for the hobby is stifled. I experienced that where I live in Syraucse and left a modular club because their goal was to get into the magazines with thier highly detailed modules. I will say that IMHO, the issue of KADEE's is not a deal breaker in my book like it was for you. For whatever reason, that was one basic standard you couldn't live with apparently and it may have been the straw that broke your camels back. But... I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of clubs do have KADEE's or at minimum knuckle couplers as a standard (barring all other standards) so running your trains at the club would be difficult if they couldn't couple! And quite frankly, if you want to get down to it, a huge amount of trains are not run prototypically at clubs or anywhere else. I was at the Syracuse train show and I saw everything in the book there running and pretty much not prototypical. But - I'd be hard pressed to see (in both of those huge buildings) trains running on horn hooks. As others have pointed out, they really have gone the way of the do-do. So I really don't think you can legitimately lump fans of KD's (or KD clones) in with the prototype fanatics anymore. Even the train set quality trains come with clones now - they have become THE standard anymore - prototype focus or no.
Cheers.
You all seem to have missed the point, I'm not saying DON'T switch to knuckles, I'm saying I don't like them, and I wasn't the only one who had trouble with the ''rivet counting morons'' at the club, there were 12 people in it and 6 left because of the constant idiocy of the others, and YES they were trying to get in MR and RMC, and they preached that anything short of absolute realism was unacceptable. The coupler thing was not a ''deal breaker'' as you call it, it was one of the many things the 6 morons complained about constantly, I had many cars that were equipped with Kadees, mostly Athearn, a few Roundhouse, but the other members had horn hooks and they were always being bashed for it. After having never ending trouble with the Kadee springs flying off, derailments and couplers that wouldn't connect....I switched everything I had to horn hooks, works fine for me, and I told the idiots at the club where they could stick their ''absolute realism'' mantra.
That sorta thing is not what I'm about, I'm about enjoying myself, not worrying what someone else thinks is ''realism''. Like I said before, change if you want, enjoy the work involved, and admire your new real looking equipment, meanwhile, I'll be running my railroad!
The answer is simple because NMRA couplers many disadvantages and their primary advantage was that they were "free" but that's mostly no longer true. Come to the "better side": convert to Kadees. Each free day, pick out a piece of equipment, install Kadee couplers, check out the wheels for gauge (and I recommend you replace any plastic wheels with metal ones), lubricate, etc. If conversion isn't straight-forward, put aside for later evaluation. Locomotives are more problematic, but Kadee has many variations in response. In a few weeks, you should have a significant number of compatable rolling stock. So, don't waste your time on transitional equipment (NMRA on one end, Kadee on the other).
Mark
LD357 wrote: You all seem to have missed the point, I'm not saying DON'T switch to knuckles, I'm saying I don't like them,
You all seem to have missed the point, I'm not saying DON'T switch to knuckles, I'm saying I don't like them,
I think we we read you loud and clear.
and I wasn't the only one who had trouble with the ''rivet counting morons'' at the club, there were 12 people in it and 6 left because of the constant idiocy of the others, and YES they were trying to get in MR and RMC, and they preached that anything short of absolute realism was unacceptable. The coupler thing was not a ''deal breaker'' as you call it, it was one of the many things the 6 morons complained about constantly, I had many cars that were equipped with Kadees, mostly Athearn, a few Roundhouse, but the other members had horn hooks and they were always being bashed for it.
Well, no one should be bashed for using horn hooks. However, I can see how a mix of two basically incompatable couplers would pose an ongoing problem. Seems pretty basic you need to be able to couple freight cars randomly and run them. As for general standards, obviously if a club is going to have extreemly high standards overall, that will make it a pretty exclusive lot. If there are no clubs which are flexible enough to let people run a variety of their favorite trains, then that is where people have to do home layouts. We have both kinds here in Syracuse - the Central NY Modelers of Distinction (which I am not!) and another club which is probably much looser. Clubs are very often a mixed bag and it is often a problem pleasing everyone.
After having never ending trouble with the Kadee springs flying off, derailments and couplers that wouldn't connect....I switched everything I had to horn hooks, works fine for me, and I told the idiots at the club where they could stick their ''absolute realism'' mantra.
While I might agree that some people can by extremely annoying, there is no constructive purpose in showing anger at them. People are different with different goals, and that doesn't make them evil or jerks. It means they don't want what you want plane and simple. It's better to realize that early on and part ways amicably and peacefully. That is what I did when I found out my modeling goals weren't compatible with the (I have to get into the magazines) goals of the group I originally worked with. That sorta thing is not what I'm about, I'm about enjoying myself, not worrying what someone else thinks is ''realism''. Like I said before, change if you want, enjoy the work involved, and admire your new real looking equipment, meanwhile, I'll be running my railroad!
This is why there are alot of "lone wolves" out there! I used to get pretty discouraged, especially because everyone around here are into New York Central, or Conrail, or Pennsy or the Old & Weary etc. I'm definitely a fish out of water being a western rail fan so I look forward to when I can move to be in a region where there are more people of like mind.
I forgot to mention you should acquire Kadee's coupler height gauge as well as their washers for adjusting coupler height. It is amazing there is such a variance in nominal coupler height of our models.