I've been out of the hobby for several years due to moving to several new homes since my last model railroad build. All of my boxed up equipment is fairly old and it all has horn hook couplers. I intend to eventually convert over to knuckle couplers, but it may be awhile. I am also eyeing some newer motive power and rolling stock, most of which now comes with knuckle couplers. My question is; Will knuckle couplers mate up with the horn hook couplers of my existing equipment?
Sorry, not really. IT is worth the effort though. You can get 20 packs of Kadee #5's that will work in most applications. Then it's a matter of looking specifically at each engine and car for the right one.
Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
How old is "fairly old?" And again, who made the cars?
My stuff had been in boxes for 40 years. I found that Athearn cars, even very old ones, could be updated by simply removing the cover to the coupler pocket, replacing the horn-hook with a Kadee #5, and replacing the cover. The rest, though, require some degree of effort and ingenuity. On a lot of them, I end up completely removing the old coupler pocket and replacing it with a Kadee "Draft Gear Box," which is the more appropriate term for "coupler pocket."
A lot of old-time stuff had the couplers mounted on the trucks, rather than on the car body. This presents a problem, because this configuration doesn't work very well either with horn-hooks or with knuckles. In particular, it's hard to back up a train with these things. So, you will likely want to "body-mount" the new couplers (and the draft gear box) after removing the old coupler assembly from the trucks.
Long cars, like passenger cars, will not work well with body-mount couplers if you have tight curves. For these, I've left the couplers truck-mounted, and just replaced the boxes and couplers.
Old engines probably aren't worth the effort. New engines are just so much better, in every way.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
47gotcha wrote:Most of my rolling stock is cheap stuff such as Bachmann and Lifelike. My motive power for the most part is Athern and a couple of Bachmann engines. My wife will love to hear that I need to buy all new equipment...NOT!
Well you can sell the old stuff on eBay and use the money to upgrade.
Unfortunately, the cheap stuff is the hardest to convert to knuckles. Go to a train show, you'll be surprized how inexpensive cars with knuckles already on them can be--especially if you shop for used ones.
Use your eBay money.
http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips2/kadee_tips.html
This site will probably answer most of the questions that you WILL have once you start converting to the Kadee's.
SpaceMouse wrote: Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's.
WRONG!!! Nothing wrong with converting your old stuff over to Kadee's. It's NOT difficult and only costs about $1/per car/loco.
Change em to knuckles, but in the meantime you can make a tranistional car with 1 knuckle and 1 horn hook coupler. Then you can run old stuff with new until you get them all changed over. Kadee are the easiest to obtain and are a reasonable price for knuckle couplers. Sargeant are more to scale but they do not mate with the other makes of knuckle couplers and have to be uncoupled by hand. Also more expensive. If you have a bunch of old Bachmann stuff you may want to change trucks as well. Their couplers are truck mounted and may be a real pain to change.
Step 1 might be to create some "transition" cars. Change some to knuckle couplers on one end only, leaving the other end horn-hook. It will be a little pesky for a while, because you'll need to use one of these cars between strings of knuckle-coupler-equipped cars and older cars, but it will allow you to run both in trains and to use newer cars behind engines still equipped with horn-hooks. Then once you've covnerted or upgraded everythign, you can go back and complete the conversion on the transition cars.
Creating transition cabooses is also a good idea ... horn hook on one end, knuckle on the other. Then they can be on the end of any train.
Edit: I see RLundy posted the same idea while I was typing.
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No problem..You have a choice..Take one car and add a knuckle coupler on one end and a X2F on the other..There you have a conversion car and can change couplers as you will..
Of course you can still replace the cheap knuckle coupler with the horn hook.Its your call.
BTW..There are still modelers that still uses X2F couplers.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
When you do pick a car to use with different couplers on opposite ends, try to choose one which will be easy to identify quickly. Trying to figure out which car in a string of identical black hoppers marks the transition from X2F to knuckles can be a major PITA. It's a lot easier if it's the only four-bay in a string of two-bays.
OTOH, if you are going to run cars in cuts, and haven't encountered derailment problems, you can install knuckles at both ends of each cut and leave the interior couplers X2F. I do something similar with my unit coal trains - MKD-5s on the ends, ancient Kadee K couplers (without trip pins) in between.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
You can also throw a handful of "Universal couplers" in your tool box and use them for coupling any cars together that do not have mating couplers installed.
I get one Universal Coupler with every loaf of bread and package of buns I buy. I also get a small packet of them in every box of trashbags.
Some folk call these things "Twisty Ties" but they are actually "Universal Couplers".
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Semper Vaporo wrote:You can also throw a handful of "Universal couplers" in your tool box and use them for coupling any cars together that do not have mating couplers installed.I get one Universal Coupler with every loaf of bread and package of buns I buy. I also get a small packet of them in every box of trashbags.Some folk call these things "Twisty Ties" but they are actually "Universal Couplers".
How's the slack run out on those universals?
Enjoy
Paul
If you get too much slack action, you just twist them some more!
I had an Athearn GP with a KD on one end and a horn on the other untill I got all my cars changed over.
I don't really remember the horn hooks coming uncoupled or giving me any problems. Didn't have to worry about coupler height with them either.
There was someone featured in an MR article who used horn hooks and the writer sweared he had one of the best horn hook operating couplers ever. The industry now has pretty much switched to kadee clones, but no matter what you are best to convert to kadees in the long run. Its been noted that many of the kadee clones dont stand up to the heavy use such as 100 car freights and break easily. The manufacture kadee clone is great for testing and couples immediatly to your stuff with kadees. Horn Hooks could not do that and you had to convert over.
The only coupler I know that couples horn hooks and kadees is the EZMate. While you are in the process of converting have a few conversion cars so you can run all your equipment still. I did the same thing.
If the issue is expense, you could look at KD-sized dummy couplers like Accurail makes, they're cheap and will work with KD's. They will even couple with Kadees on straight track. I use them on my ore cars, two ore cars in a set of five have a dummy on one side and a Kadee on the other. The cars in the middle only have dummys. Except for not having the uncoupling "tail" they look at a glance much like Kadee couplers.
Otherwise, if you have talgo truck mounted couplers on some of the cars, Kadee does make talgo truck/coupler combinations that you could look into on their website.
Hello David B,
For me its no contest,knuckles only for me I change from UK 4mm scale which was all wrong anyway to US/Canadian modelling in 1979 and compared to American models then UK was all tripe and Geeps and Fs became my rostered locomotives and my first vcisit to Canada last year started off an interest in Canadian railways and have locos in GO Transit,VIA Rail,and CN plus the RDC all fitted with knuckles and all well detailed but next on my wish list are Rapido coaches for my Trainline VIA Rail F40 and GO Transit Bombardier cars for my GO F40 also Trainline.
Malcolm
For an initial cure to get you a conversion car (or indeed all if you wish), cut off the gathering tab on the horn hook with a good set of flush cutters, then cut off the protrusion underneath, you will be left with a basic knuckle, file the cut edges a bit to make smooth surfaces, and you will have a coupler that will mate automatically with Kadees (and most other magnetics), at no cost.
A cheap way to get you up and running, it can be a bit daunting to try and change everything over at once, this is a temporary cure that we find becomes quite permanent on older stock where switching is not required. Or just to get up and running again.
Teditor
I forgot to mention, the modified X2F/Horn-hook will still work with each other as well.
loathar wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's. WRONG!!! Nothing wrong with converting your old stuff over to Kadee's. It's NOT difficult and only costs about $1/per car/loco.
My guess at the price is about $2 for the couplers, plus you have to buy the 2-56 tap and screws, cut the old box off and glue it in place. Then tap out the plastic and mount the coupler. If you then have to adust the height, it is even more work. To me this is more work and money than I want to spend on when I can get a better car at a train show with the couplers already mounted for $4--and get my $4 back from selling the old car on eBay.
SpaceMouse wrote: loathar wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's. WRONG!!! Nothing wrong with converting your old stuff over to Kadee's. It's NOT difficult and only costs about $1/per car/loco.My guess at the price is about $2 for the couplers, plus you have to buy the 2-56 tap and screws, cut the old box off and glue it in place. Then tap out the plastic and mount the coupler. If you then have to adust the height, it is even more work. To me this is more work and money than I want to spend on when I can get a better car at a train show with the couplers already mounted for $4--and get my $4 back from selling the old car on eBay.
That's strange. I did all mine with a $20 bulk pack of #5's and some 3 cent screws from my hardware store. Got about 100 draft gear boxes from McHenry for $2. Total of about $1.25/car.Guess I should have just got rid of them though...
davidmbedard wrote: branchline wrote: Hello David B,For me its no contest,knuckles only for me I change from UK 4mm scale which was all wrong anyway to US/Canadian modelling in 1979 and compared to American models then UK was all tripe and Geeps and Fs became my rostered locomotives and my first vcisit to Canada last year started off an interest in Canadian railways and have locos in GO Transit,VIA Rail,and CN plus the RDC all fitted with knuckles and all well detailed but next on my wish list are Rapido coaches for my Trainline VIA Rail F40 and GO Transit Bombardier cars for my GO F40 also Trainline.Malcolm David B
branchline wrote: Hello David B,For me its no contest,knuckles only for me I change from UK 4mm scale which was all wrong anyway to US/Canadian modelling in 1979 and compared to American models then UK was all tripe and Geeps and Fs became my rostered locomotives and my first vcisit to Canada last year started off an interest in Canadian railways and have locos in GO Transit,VIA Rail,and CN plus the RDC all fitted with knuckles and all well detailed but next on my wish list are Rapido coaches for my Trainline VIA Rail F40 and GO Transit Bombardier cars for my GO F40 also Trainline.Malcolm
David B
Would you like an aspirin David?
I'll bite... but I'm not sure how many opinions we really need...
Most engines and some cars I've bought recently do actually come with horn-hook couplers that you can put on if you need them, which is not a bad solution.
If you're interested, or become interested as you go along, pick a favorite engine and a couple cars and convert them to knuckles. As mentioned, the best of the best is Kadee, but others will work - especially on short trains without grades. Uncoupling with a pick (wooden skewer found in grocery stores) works best with like-brand couplers, i.e. all kadees. If you need specific help with a car, take some photos or describe them for us and we can offer suggestions. After you switch a couple cars over, you will either decide to to the rest, or retire your fleet and purchase more "mature" cars. Personally, I converted a couple of my oldest cars, and I use them regularly. I also have a fleet of tyco cars which, after temporarily converting a couple, I opted to pack away. There are lots of nice but relatively inexpensive cars available these days.
By the way, each conversion will be a little unique. The cars I converted had truck mounted couplers. I replaced the trucks with new ones that came with metal wheels and had no coupler mounts (actually, I bought trucks with coupler mounts but later cut them off). Then I mounted Kadee #5's in boxes to the body of the car. Changing the trucks required gluing a new stem of styrene tubing into the car and using screws to hold the trucks. Then, there was a bit of floundering around inserting washers between the trucks and cars to raise the couplers to the correct height. Kadee makes a coupler height gauge which is very helpful once you switch to knuckles. It was pretty involved, and it took me a few tries to get to the final result.
Hope this helps,
Jim
davidmbedard wrote:Actually...you are ALL wrong. You can do some 'snipping' to the X2f couplers to allow them to couple to #5s.David B
Actually...you are ALL wrong. You can do some 'snipping' to the X2f couplers to allow them to couple to #5s.
If I am modding over to kadees, no need, I say buhbye hornhooks!!!
I think I mostly trash any hornhooks I find...I curse at every moment my cars derail because of the hornhooks...