jktrains wrote:Current project car, speaking of graffitihttp://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=19034So this is this work of some racist, gang member???
Current project car, speaking of graffiti
http://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=19034
So this is this work of some racist, gang member???
Highly unlikely. The work is tagged "kuhr resa aware". The "kuhr" tag is from a known graffiti guy, but the other two are unknown to me and might be something other than names.
To expand on what I posted above, this type of graffiti has little to due with criminal intent, beyond trespassing and vandalism. These guys like using freight cars as canvas, as their "art" will be seen all over the country, rather than just their neighborhood.
Charlie Conway wrote: It's a pity we live in a world where we have to make choices like this. Just like its a pity that I have to put up with BNSF personnel hassling me for taking pictures from a public sidewalk.Charlie
It's a pity we live in a world where we have to make choices like this. Just like its a pity that I have to put up with BNSF personnel hassling me for taking pictures from a public sidewalk.
Charlie
Charlie,
I'm surprised you're having problems with BNSF. They have actually instituted, and are expanding, a citizens rail watch program. They see rail fans as an extra set of eyes looking after the railroad. You can join on their website and the provide an "ID" card with a number to call in case you see something wrong like vandalism, shifted loads etc. There is a mention of the program in the current issue of Trains magazine. Check it out.
Varnet wrote: jktrains wrote: Current project car, speaking of graffitihttp://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=19034So this is this work of some racist, gang member???Highly unlikely. The work is tagged "kuhr resa aware". The "kuhr" tag is from a known graffiti guy, but the other two are unknown to me and might be something other than names. To expand on what I posted above, this type of graffiti has little to due with criminal intent, beyond trespassing and vandalism. These guys like using freight cars as canvas, as their "art" will be seen all over the country, rather than just their neighborhood.
jktrains wrote: Current project car, speaking of graffitihttp://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=19034So this is this work of some racist, gang member???
That was my point, not all, and not nearly all, graffiti is gang related. Notice on this particular car that the 'artist' made sure to include the cars reporting marks and loading info as part of the painting.
P.S. - Preliminary photos of the project car should be ready in about 1 - 2 hours. Check back.
Varnet wrote: PA and ERR wrote:Do you know that nearly all taggers belong to criminal gangs?That's actually more urban legend than truth. While there are plenty of gang taggers, their graffiti is typically quite different than "artistic" graffiti tags. Most gang-related graffiti is territorial in nature, to denote a particular gang's turf and are typically one color and very simplistic in nature. The colorful and stylistic tags we often see on frieght cars (like many modeled in this thread) are more the work of graffiti "artists" that are only criminals by way of their choice of expression, vandalism.Wikipedia has an informative article on graffiti, available here.
PA and ERR wrote:Do you know that nearly all taggers belong to criminal gangs?
That's actually more urban legend than truth. While there are plenty of gang taggers, their graffiti is typically quite different than "artistic" graffiti tags. Most gang-related graffiti is territorial in nature, to denote a particular gang's turf and are typically one color and very simplistic in nature. The colorful and stylistic tags we often see on frieght cars (like many modeled in this thread) are more the work of graffiti "artists" that are only criminals by way of their choice of expression, vandalism.
Wikipedia has an informative article on graffiti, available here.
You're using Wikipedia as your "source"!
George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
And when they get bored with using freigth cars as their "canvas" and decide to use your mini-van or your garage, will it still be "art" to you?
jktrains wrote: Varnet wrote: jktrains wrote: Current project car, speaking of graffitihttp://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=19034So this is this work of some racist, gang member???Highly unlikely. The work is tagged "kuhr resa aware". The "kuhr" tag is from a known graffiti guy, but the other two are unknown to me and might be something other than names. To expand on what I posted above, this type of graffiti has little to due with criminal intent, beyond trespassing and vandalism. These guys like using freight cars as canvas, as their "art" will be seen all over the country, rather than just their neighborhood. That was my point, not all, and not nearly all, graffiti is gang related. Notice on this particular car that the 'artist' made sure to include the cars reporting marks and loading info as part of the painting.P.S. - Preliminary photos of the project car should be ready in about 1 - 2 hours. Check back.
Great! Kind of like a burglar who locks the door on his way out, eh? We should be ever so thankful to them.
BTW not one of you pro-graffiti types has answered my question about replicating (in scale) a freight car tagged with obviously racist "art".
Cat got your tongue?
Pro-graffiti types? You understand that we're discussing graffiti, and how it relates to modeling, instead of judging people...like racists do?
To answer your question though, I wouldn't knowingly replicate racist graffiti on my layout.
We have a "car art" contest in our Iowa club.
Heres my 1:29 hopper at the Minersville crossing
Some cars just need alittle weathering
Is it REAL? or Just 1:29 scale?
Long live Outdoor Model Railroading.
Varnet wrote: Pro-graffiti types? You understand that we're discussing graffiti, and how it relates to modeling, instead of judging people...like racists do? To answer your question though, I wouldn't knowingly replicate racist graffiti on my layout.
With out a complete understanding of the gang subculture, its signs, emblems and "art" you may (unwittingly) be promoting a gang associated racist message by duplicating it on a scale freight car.
That is enough of a reason for me not to want to bring that filth into my layout room. Sorry if it isn't for you.
George,
I think I provided a clear response to your question about modeling offensive or racist graffiti, and I tried to show respect for your position as I understand it. May I suggest that you show the same respect to people who differ with you on whether to model graffiti? Referring to people who choose to represent graffiti on their models as "pro-graffiti types" is uncalled for.
I haven't heard anyone say they are in favor of graffiti in the real world. On the contrary, most have gone out of their way to condemn it.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
George - It is helpful to know about things like "14/88" and such, and I'm glad you posted that information. To add to that, gang tags make frequent use of crowns, pitchforks, 6-pointed stars, moons, stars, or dice, and are typically very crude in style.
Just keep in mind that most freight car graffiti, be it modeled or seen in the real world, isn't gang related, nor is it racist in nature. It's just the illegal work of graffiti writers who want their work seen.
PA and ERR wrote:You're using Wikipedia as your "source"! George
Don't be a troll. My information comes from real-life experience, and a family member that is a police officer in Los Angeles. I wanted to pass on helpful information to fellow modelers, and the article I linked to is full of good information.
You apparently are incapable of discussing this topic like an adult, and I will no longer respond to your posts in this thread.
Good day, sir.
Highly unlikely. The work is tagged "kuhr resa aware". The "kuhr" tag is from a known graffiti guy, but the other two are unknown to me and might be something other than names. To expand on what I posted above, this type of graffiti has little to due with criminal intent, beyond trespassing and vandalism. These guys like using freight cars as canvas, as their "art" will be seen all over the country, rather than just their neighborhood. And when they get bored with using freigth cars as their "canvas" and decide to use your mini-van or your garage, will it still be "art" to you?George
Highly unlikely. The work is tagged "kuhr resa aware". The "kuhr" tag is from a known graffiti guy, but the other two are unknown to me and might be something other than names. To expand on what I posted above, this type of graffiti has little to due with criminal intent, beyond trespassing and vandalism. These guys like using freight cars as canvas, as their "art" will be seen all over the country, rather than just their neighborhood.
If that is the example of the type of work that artist does, please send me his address to me so my truck can look that good - heck I'll even supply the first $100 of paint.
You're using Wikipedia as your "source"! George
Say what you want about Wiki, but, they have been doing a fairly good job of cleaning alot of the articals up to present some decent info.
jktrains,
Thanks for letting me know about the BNSF citizen watch program. I checked it out on their website, and I'm glad to see they are acknowledging the positive contribution that railfans can make to security and safety.
I'm not sure I like the notion of obtaining an ID card from BNSF, but I have printed out the intro page from the Citizens for Rail Security webpage, and I'll carry it with me so I can show it to the next BNSF employee who insists I need permission to take photos from the public way. I guess the word hasn't filtered down to everyone. In fairness, I'm sure that everyone who works for a railroad these days is very concerned about security.
Thanks to everyone who has provided thoughtful comments, examples of their work, tips and links in response to my post. You've all given me a lot to think about.
Unfortunately the thread seems to have taken an unpleasant turn, and people are getting mad at each other, so I think I'll sign off . . .
For the record Charley, I wasn't so much mad as I have little tolerance for willful ignorance or the sound and fury of trollish behavior.
Overall, this was an informative thread on an aspect of modern railroad modeling. Thanks for a good thread, Charley.
Charlie Conway wrote: George,I think I provided a clear response to your question about modeling offensive or racist graffiti, and I tried to show respect for your position as I understand it. May I suggest that you show the same respect to people who differ with you on whether to model graffiti? Referring to people who choose to represent graffiti on their models as "pro-graffiti types" is uncalled for.I haven't heard anyone say they are in favor of graffiti in the real world. On the contrary, most have gone out of their way to condemn it.Charlie
My point is we have very little choice about seeing graffitti in the real world. Now you say "no one is "pro-graffitti". How do you reconcile that with the fact that it requires a deliberate effort to recreate graffiti on our layouts?
On the one hand you say people "have gone out of their way to codemn it", and yet some of those same people go to great lenghts to recreate what they are condemning on their layouts. It makes me wonder just how sincere their condmenation of it really is?
Actions always speak louder than words.
That's probably Photoshopped. It's WAY too neat and accurate to be a tagger. It's not the type of picture a tagger would do. It takes up the entire side of the car which indicates ladders or scaffolding was used. It would probably take 2-3 days to do that with spray cans if you even could do that kind of work with spray cans. (which I doubt) And I doubt that car would be in service without any kind of reporting marks on it.
But hey!! Let's keep on posting pictures of models and real cars covered in graffiti giving the taggers the recognition they so richly deserve and crave! That'll discourage em!
And that 14 18/88 thing(or whatever it was) Probably the same folks that say KISS stands for Knights In Satins Service. Or if you have a red bandanna on your left leg, your selling reefer that day.(gimme a break)
I think that as model railroaders we have a responsibility to the younger members of society that may see our layouts and our trains. Rare is the model railroader who doesn't share his trains with the children he knows. Some layouts achieve national recognition in the modeling press. Impressionable children in every part of this nation see those pictures. Many children attend model train shows.
When those kids see graffiti on freight cars what kind of message does that send to them? Grown ups are authority figures to kids (even if kids don't admit it) and it doesn't take much imagination for a kid to say, hey, if they tag toy trains but wouldn't it be cool to tag a real train? Sure, they may come up with that idea without seeing scale graffiti on your box car. But, like it or not your graffiti covered car will be giving them tacit approval of their actions.
Kids can find enough ways to get into trouble without our glamorizing a dangerous and illegal activity like "tagging" freight cars.
Headlines like this are reason enough not to glamorize graffiti...
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070107/ai_n17107610
If that kid had seen a model of a tagged freight car on my layout, even if he didn't get the idea from me, I would have a very hard time sleeping at night.
loathar wrote: jktrains wrote: Current project car, speaking of graffitihttp://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=19034So this is this work of some racist, gang member???That's probably Photoshopped. It's WAY too neat and accurate to be a tagger. It's not the type of picture a tagger would do. It takes up the entire side of the car which indicates ladders or scaffolding was used. It would probably take 2-3 days to do that with spray cans if you even could do that kind of work with spray cans. (which I doubt) And I doubt that car would be in service without any kind of reporting marks on it. But hey!! Let's keep on posting pictures of models and real cars covered in graffiti giving the taggers the recognition they so richly deserve and crave! That'll discourage em!And that 14 18/88 thing(or whatever it was) Probably the same folks that say KISS stands for Knights In Satins Service. Or if you have a red bandanna on your left leg, your selling reefer that day.(gimme a break)
I only wish that were true. Just google "14 words David Lane".
I do agree with your assement of the "tagged" car being photoshopped though. On the other hand I have seen a graffiti covered box car that nearly the entire side was done and it was done so "well" that I though that it was a new railroad paint scheme. Only the wording (it said "Insane" or something like that) gave it away.
"Rust, whats not to love?"
riogrande5761 wrote:I don't model vandalism on my trains either. My modeling period fortunately is before graffiti became wide spread. None for me.
Interesting, what trains do you run on your pre-roman layout?
No offence intended as you might understand.
Graffiti have been around since ancient times. As long as there have been walls and paint there have been graffiti. Somethings today known as art that is needed to be protected is vandalism. Look at Pompeii in Italy, people now travel there to watch this and revere. Just a bit of info from an historian. It is no way intended to promote destruction or vandalism or private or public property.
I'm against REAL world graffiti. But when we try to depict reality I do think that if an individual would like to model it as it is he should. Graffiti is a part of reality, like it or no.
Magnus
Lillen wrote: riogrande5761 wrote:I don't model vandalism on my trains either. My modeling period fortunately is before graffiti became wide spread. None for me. Interesting, what trains do you run on your pre-roman layout? No offence intended as you might understand.Graffiti have been around since ancient times. As long as there have been walls and paint there have been graffiti. Somethings today known as art that is needed to be protected is vandalism. Look at Pompeii in Italy, people now travel there to watch this and revere. Just a bit of info from an historian. It is no way intended to promote destruction or vandalism or private or public property. I'm against REAL world graffiti. But when we try to depict reality I do think that if an individual would like to model it as it is he should. Graffiti is a part of reality, like it or no. Magnus
Then I assume you would have no problem with someone who included graffiti like this on their layout?
/quoteDo you also think it is wrong if you use black men only as attendants on Pullman cars? It also takes deliberate work to make it so, does that mean that those who do it condone racism?
[quote user="PA&ERR"
[/quote
This to, does that mean that accurate descriptions of billboards and hiring practises during the first half of 20th century will create a lot of young racists when they are effected by what they see it at a train show or in a paper?
What about sexism. Should every 50's layout have 50% female engineers and firemen? Surely by this logic they should since depicting reality is wrong if it can offend or inspire someone? I know for sure that if I had been brought up and seen a layout with Georges everywhere on the train and not an executive woman to be seen I would have turnet out to become a sexist racist. Good thing I only had a 4*8 Plywood sheeat as a kid!
So do YOU recreate racism and sexism on YOUR layout? Because as you said "Actions always speak louder than words. " And if this logic is to be upheld, the logic that reality should not be depicted when it conflicts with what could encourage crime or racism then depicting the surely, you do not depict any offending things.
Oh, and once more, I condone neither racism, sexism or graffiti. But I do accept that porters where called George, there wasn't very many engineer women and that graffiti is a part of the modern world(and ancient)
We can modell graffiti without using those things. We can choose to censor ourselfes. The people in this thread who have shown their graffiti cars have not chosen this. Also, this is what you need to get. Just because I have a problem with it doesn't mean that I must stop everyone else from doing it. Freedom of speech is important. The freedom to modell is almost as important!
That freedom would also allow me to not want to do it my self.
And if you think anyone will become a Nazi after having seen that in 1/87 scale on a boxcar in a modell railroad paper then you should perhaps reconsider.
But you are arguing you own way. Graffiti do NOT have to be a swastika! Just as you do not have to include cross burning on any Mississippi 60's layout.
Lillen wrote:[quote user="PA&ERR"] Then I assume you would have no problem with someone who included graffiti like this on their layout?George[/quote We can modell graffiti without using those things. We can choose to censor ourselfes. The people in this thread who have shown their graffiti cars have not chosen this. Also, this is what you need to get. Just because I have a problem with it doesn't mean that I must stop everyone else from doing it. Freedom of speech is important. The freedom to modell is almost as important!
If I didn't believe in Freedom of Speech, I would be trying to get my congressman to pass laws prohibiting modelers and manufacturers from duplicating graffiti. Instead, I am trying to get my fellow modelers to reconisder what it really is that they are doing and the possible negative consequences of their actions.
That freedom would also allow me to not want to do it my self.And if you think anyone will become a Nazi after having seen that in 1/87 scale on a boxcar in a modell railroad paper then you should perhaps reconsider.
Well, many countries in Europe ban the display of the swastika on advertising (for scale WWII models and the like) so, apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks that way.
Graffiti in the real world is criminal destruction of private property. When done to railcars by teens it is extremely dangerous to the taggers - both from the trains themselves and other taggers who most probably are armed.
Why anyone would want to duplicate that is beyond me. Do what you want, but don't expect me to climb down into the dung heap with you.
Maybe it is just me, but I think there are many more worthwhile projects that we, as model railroaders, could be spending our (always) limited time and resources on.
"Tag" a freight car or put in some more scenery? That's a no brainer for me.
Ok, first thing. I live in Europe and I have never ever heard that the reason for banning swastikas in advertising is that a lot of kids get pulled in to being a Nazi this way. The reason that some nations, Germany for example have a ban is that the symbols themselves are banned. Not because they are on toys. You are not allowed alot of things when it comes to this. Let me just state the irony. You write this:
If I didn't believe in Freedom of Speech, I would be trying to get my congressman to pass laws prohibiting modelers and manufacturers from duplicating graffiti
Then you write this:
Which is in effect saying that you want to infringe on free speech. Good stuff, keep it coming.
Then this:
I have kept repeating my self, I do not condone real life graffiti, no one here does. This topic is about it's uses on scale modelling. Where it is neither dangerous nor illegal.
Here is something that I do agree with:
I do not modell graffiti and I will never do it. I think it is ugly and I do not like it. I also like planting trees alot better then painting crap on the side of boxcars. But I fully respect the ones that choose to do it. It is their choice.
You never answered my question? Do you modell things that are not as they should be? Are your engineer crews of a correct mix of ethnicity's and gender?
Once more now so everyone gets it. I do NOT like graffiti in neither the real world or the modelling world but I do respect the people who do it on their models. Not on the real thing.
Are we clear now?